New Dirt on Pastor Warren via Rachel Maddow

[orleans]

Run time: 10:25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz4O8j8MIhs   Posted on YouTube: December 20, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: December 20, 2008 By DU Member: orleans Views on DU: 5748

 
"because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the lordship and leadership of jesus in one's life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at saddleback church."
--this quote from the rick warren's church website

FUCK THIS GUY!

obama needs to drop this asshole quick! seperate but "equal" went out years ago

[dflprincess]

1. Seperate but equal went out 55 years ago next spring

when the court announced the Brown vs The Board decsion.

[MADem]

2. Obama's on the same wavelength, religiously speaking, though.

He said that marriage is "sanctified" between a MAN AND A WOMAN.

I don't think Obama would be joining a church that allowed gays to MARRY...if he's going to be consistent.

And unless you're Andrew "There Must be A PONY In There Somewhere" Sullivan, you probably wouldn't want to belong to a church that ordered you to fake your orientation because the pastor thinks it's a frigging LIFESTYLE that calls for "repenting."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. If that's true, that's totally not change. That's the same bs as Bush. nt

[George II]

36. "not change" on only ONE issue......

....if a president is measured on EVERY issue and one dislikes him because of only one, you would never like any president.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. A vital issue - civil rights for women, not just gays nt

[LeftyMom]

4. The weird thing is that Obama IS a member of a church that allows gay people to marry.

That's the part that makes no sense to me about his personal objection.

[MADem]

6. He has no church now. Maybe he'll sign up with Rick....

He dumped Trinity once it, or more properly, Rev. Wright, became toxic. It did its job--it helped him develop a base to get to the State Senate. But he's not there anymore.

Interesting article about Obama picking a church: http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=6310182

[balantz]

14. He appears to be an opportunist every step of the way. n/t

[Ken Burch]

48. He dumped the congregation, not the entire denomination.

n/t.

[MADem]

72. No, he dumped the denomination as well. He's a free agent, per all the press reports.

If he only dumped the congregation, he would have IMMEDIATELY joined another UCC church. There are PLENTY in DC METRO to choose from.

He has not done that. Odds are EXCELLENT he's DONE with the United Church of Christ. They're WAY too gay friendly for him. They are politically UNVIABLE.

He's church shopping.

Go on, google it--or use the search feature to find where I've provided links on the subject on this forum.

He is NOT a "sure bet" to join a UCC congregation in DC. The AME guys are "reaching out." So are the conservative Episcopalians and the Baptists of varying stripes, and others as well.


Anyone with a brain knows his affilation with TUCC was political. It was a ready-made "base." They've done their job. They're not needed anymore.

[TexasProgresive]

32. If he's going to be consistent-

Obama as a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ is/was a member of a church and denomination that supports gay marriage.

United Church of Christ endorses gay marriage
Approves resolution for same-sex unions, opposes gender-specific definition
updated 12:22 p.m. CT, Mon., July. 4, 2005

ATLANTA - The United Church of Christ’s rule-making body voted overwhelmingly Monday to approve a resolution that endorses same-sex marriage, making it the largest Christian denomination to do so.

The vote is not binding on individual churches, but could cause some churches to leave the fold.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8463741/

Domestic Divapalooza
Where great minds think out loud
Posted by Angela on 10/29/07
Barack Obama was on Ellen’s Show Today

I always enjoy her show when she has an interesting guest OR a worthy cause to talk about. Ellen strikes me as a genuinely nice person. I do like her very much.

I learned some interesting facts from the show today that might be of interest to you. I tried to find a YouTube video of a clip from the show but was out of luck. They YouTubers are just not fast enough and I don’t know how to record the show myself. I know I am capable, I just don’t know how. (I have cable on my computer)

Here is my version of what was discussed on the show:

* Obama might be related to our Vice President Cheney
* Obama wants to put his family first (I like that & his girls are cuties)
* Obama has been married for 15 years
* Obama said that his church (The United Church of Christ) supports same sex marriage
* Obama can bust-a-move

http://angela-stevens.com/archives/barack-obama-was-on-ellens-show-today/

When you assume - You make an ass out of you and me.

[MADem]

44. He's not consistent, though. He's not been truthful on this issue.

I assume NOTHING. You haven't made any point, except that Obama has made statements that are at odds with his FORMER church.

I heard the man's own voice say he does not support gay marriage. What, are we not supposed to believe our own lying ears and eyes now? Then, I see him invite a bigot and a gay hater to a place of honor at the Inauguration. What should we believe? That he doesn't mean what he says? That he's just being "polite" to "Pastor Rick?"

Obama is no longer a member of that church, and even when he was a member of it, he said that his own personal religious view was that marriage is a sanctified union between a man and a woman. I haven't heard him waver on that issue or that stance-- at all.

If you can find me a SINGLE quote where he says, flat out: "I support gay marriage" --not "I support something that is separate but equal" or "I support something that smells kinda like gay marriage but isn't" I will change my tune. I don't think you can, though, because he doesn't support it--even if Rev. Wright does.

FWIW, I rather suspect that the TUCC isn't like the Catholic Church, with chatechism, and a requirement that you obey every single tenet of the faith or get kicked to the curb. Just because the church endorses something, it doesn't "accrue" to the members of the church--particularly when, like Obama, he has said-- clearly and repeatedly-- that he does not support gay marriage.

I think the Big Money and the Big Name donors to Rev. Wright's church can probably believe that Jesus is a Purple Dinosaur, if they'd like, without consequences of any sort.

[TexasProgresive]

50. You are reading too much into my post

I was just pointing out that the UCC and possible Trinity UCC are on record for marriage between men and women, women and women and men and men. Nothing in my post was suggesting that Obama was in favor of gay marriage.

[MADem]

57. No, not really. You brought up the consistency issue, and I noted that

he hasn't managed that very well.

[TexasProgresive]

62. I guess you forgot that you brought up consistency

From your (MADem) post: "I don't think Obama would be joining a church that allowed gays to MARRY...if he's going to be consistent.

I was just saying that he already was and so that statement (above) is in error.

[MADem]

63. Ah, I see.

I wasn't talking about the past, and the church he joined (and has since left) to get a ready-made base to launch a bid for the state senate, I was thinking of the church he's looking to join in the future, as he's "churchless" right now.

I get the sense that TUCC is sort of loose in their beliefs and tenets, and they don't care if the congregation disagrees on matters of Christian doctrine. That might have been fine THEN, but this is now. Obama will probably have to join a church that doesn't truck with gay marriage from a SCRIPTURAL standpoint--because that's what he says his objections are to it. If he wants to go "Historically Black" then AME might be a good fit for him. They are vehemently, unanimously opposed to gay marriage or the ordination of gay clergy.

[lostnotforgotten]

5. Maybe The DU Bigots Will Finally Understand

eom

[wundermaus]

7. In black and white -

"Because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the Lordship and leadership of Jesus in one’s life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church. That does not mean they cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives."

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/membership/group_finder/faqs_smallgroup.asp?id=7509#q_49

[Hissyspit]

8. Excellent context from Rachel.

[RobertoRoberti]

9. Is Obama really cynical?

Any intelligent person who looks at Warren's views has to see that, irrespective of his specific conservative principles, THE MAN IS FULL OF SHIT. He is a charlatan and a gasbag, who makes a lot of money peddling what Obama must know is utter crap, from homosexuality to evolution to self-help. Anti-intellectual crap, moreover. So this invitation has a purely commercial aspect-- as if a NASCAR hero were speaking at the inauguration, or a winner of American Idol, or Colonel Sanders. But it is worse than any of those choices would have been, because the man is not only against gay marriage--like Obama himself-- but against gay people.

Obama is too intelligent for me to believe that he is being intellectually honest on this point.

[Deep13]

12. I hope so, but I fear he is not.

Considering his background, if I had to guess, I suspect that Obama and Warren share the same irrational belief that religion and morality are the same thing.

[MADem]

26. And speaking of shit....there IS NO PONY.

Obama consorts with Rick Warren because, religiously speaking, Obama is comfortable with at least some of the views that Rick Warren espouses.

This isn't a surprise. How many times does the guy have to say that he believes that marriage is a "sanctified" union between a man and a woman before people finally start believing him? How many Donnie McClurkins and Kirbyjon Caldwells does he have to send out on the road, cheerleading for him, before it becomes clear that yes, he CAN be a bigot on this issue?

He DID have people around him, supporters, who did the Nudge-Wink routine (Oh, pay him no mind...he's just SAYING that to get elected!!) but when someone 'just says it' dozens of times, and has gay hating gospel pastors repeat it for him, too, it's probably a good idea to, oh, believe that is what he thinks.

[cooolandrew]

10. Wow this is a tough one. I see both sides here but the side of being the bigger person and >

not telling folks where to go cos we disagree with them jsut still seems the strongest. Pushing folks aside is what is making it harder and harder to get things done in America and I know Republicans won't do it but somebody has to be the better person however long it takes for conservatives to mature to that level. There are Republicans out there we all disagree with BUT nonetheless they still are citizens as everyone else and America will only function again as a unit no 2 way about it, be great if life was easier but it soooo is not. This whole thing makes me think Israel and Palestine both thinking the other evil but NOTHING will change till they talk and sit down and hash it out. I don't see any hope for change on this particular issue if there isn't even the slightest give and take. And it will take time.

[Deep13]

11. I'm not sure where to begin.

One cannot compromise with evil. There. How's that? Would you have asked MLK to compromise with the Klan? What about the Jews with the Nazis?

The goal should never be to find a happy medium. The goal is to find the truth. And the truth is that the whole anti-gay point of view is based on ignorance and the stupidity of getting ones morals from a book written by people who thought every animal on Earth lived within walking distance of Noah's house. Without the irrational religious beliefs, the case against homosexuality falls to pieces. No one stupid enough to take any moral lessons from that stone-age monstrosity of a god should be held up as an example of moral leadership. It is Warren's view that if someone is gay, that person's only recourse is to live a lonely and miserable existence and thereby waste the one life he or she actually has.

And since he brought up resisting sin, apparently it is okay to cave in to gluttony.

And that assumes Warren really believes what he is saying. In fact he is a second rate con artist with first rate gullible followers. He deliberately spreads the false stereotype that homosexuality equals promiscuity and that it is the moral equivalent of child molesters. That is a pretty odd thing for Warren to be saying considering that so much child sexual abuse comes right from Christian clergy and considering it is the standard operating procedure of churchmen to scare the shit out of children with visions of hell. I think the reason Warren looks like a train wreck physically is because he knows what he is doing is wrong and that overeating is a coping mechanism. (I'm talking about one guy and not myself or any other fat person.)

Ultimately, this huckster is in no position to be moralizing to anyone and is in no position to be blessing the inauguration.

[DUlover2909]

16. Good points you make. But Obama's actions are not on par with

MLK and the Klan or the Jews and Nazis. Rick Warren's church is full if ignorant idiots but they don't overtly murder people. (I'm giving them the benifit of the doubt. I know that there are gay related hate crimes.)

The reason Warren's church has so many ignorant people is because America is packed full of ignorance. Obama is the best chance we have to get people educated. People like you and me know that the bible is full of contradictions and nonsense, but too many people do not. The repukes like it that way. They want a good solid base of uneducated morons that they can count on for their votes. They spend, spend, spend, on defense budgets and corporate tax breaks and vote down anything that sounds like it might educate the electorate. They deny science and celebrate ignorance and mythology. It's their strategy.

I think Obama is trying to do the opposite of what people think is happening. I think that he is trying to liberalize Warren just a little bit. He takes a mainstream and popular (with the fundies that is) pastor and links him to Obama's inauguration. The fundies are frightened of Democrats and especially Obama. From their puny and infantile point of view, they will see it as one of their own actually making Obama the POTUS.

Warren's stance on homosexuality, and his prominent role in passing Prop 8, may be considered by Obama as unfortunate but understandable, considering that he is a fundie after all. But even then, it's a secondary concern. I am only proposing what might be the case in attempt to understand a very puzzling move by Obama. I wish had picked someone else, but isn't it fun to speculate? Ooh, the drama! It never ends.

[girl gone mad]

23. Not every Klan member murdered blacks.

Not every Nazi murdered Jews.

They were all bigots, and Warren is a bigot.

I think it's a fair analogy.

[DUlover2909]

25. But those groups were in fact overtly complicit in those murders. Not every German was a nazi.

I don't see it as an apt analogy. Here we disagree, agreeably I hope.:)

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DUlover2909]

59. Happy Holidays to you too.

I said Obama's choice was puzzling, and I disagreed with it. I was just discussing his possible reasoning. Since I can't make Obama change his mind, what's wrong with talking about it? Bigotry? What does anything I wrote in my posts indicate in any way that I am a bigot? Just trying to keep it civil here man.

[Tutankhamun]

43. I think you're on to something, DUlover. The idea that Obama

may well have a hidden strategy here makes sense. The fundies are going to be forced to think when they see Warren at the inauguration.

The last thing the GOP wants is for the fundies to actually think. For themselves, no less!

[DutchLiberal]

68. Can I recommend your reply?

:applause:

[Deep13]

71. Thanks. nt

[greeneyedboy]

53. "give and take" would mean BOTH sides represented.

Warren's hateful views are given a national stage. That's not dialogue or give-and-take, that's elevating and glorifying a vile point of view.

There's no "balancing" of anti-racism with racists, right? Because racism is wrong, period.

Comparing abortion to the Holocaust is beyond the pale of civilized discourse. So is comparing marriage between two men or two women to child rape and incest between two siblings.

[roody]

13. Warren's comments are an obvious reason to support gay marriage.

[Rhiannon12866]

15. Thank you! K&R. Kudos to you and to Rachel, as usual...

:patriot:

[ChazII]

17. Thanks for posting this. n/t

[Divine Discontent]

18. it's gross he says he'd like to have 'sex with every beautiful woman I see' & Anne is sitting right

there - that's nasty on his part - she just nods. Whatever that nod meant, she'll only know. To me, it was improper to say to her that he wants to have sex with her, but his maturity prevents him from asking her to do it... barf.

[Hokie]

20. I see we both picked up on that line

[Divine Discontent]

21. ha! love it... poor Anne, RUN! eom

[DutchLiberal]

69. Maybe he doesn't think Anne is beautiful?

:shrug:

[Hokie]

19. The priceless moment

When Warren said "I want to have sex with every beautiful woman I meet." I could see that the lady interviewing him got a picture in her mind of Rick and it wasn't pretty. It was probably a picture of his pendulous belly hanging out over his dongle. I think I saw her shudder in disgust.

[Divine Discontent]

22. I wanted to say in my post, I thought it was a shudder, and your agreement tells me it was!

he is so gross for telling her that - he's clearing just spewing forth whatever comes to mind. He's weak in his argument about Gay people - clearly. It was laughable. I have a former best friend that won't even talk to me now, who goes to one of these churches that does this 'ex gay' crap, and I really believe he pushed me away because of them. They are an affront to decency - it's really wrong to give Warren a stage or platform to springboard off of, because of the fame being the one to give the Obama Inaugural Invocation brings him.

[Hokie]

24. I know revulsion when I see it

That was a look of pure revulsion. You couldn't see but she was probably reflexively pushing her knees together. What was her name?

I have pretty much stayed out of the Warren controversy. Yeah. Warren is a Fundie idiot. It doesn't take much of an IQ to figure that out. I happen to think Obama has used him like a borrowed mule to mollify the unfortunately significant number of religious right to keep them from organizing successfully against him during the election and when he begins to change some of the terrible Bush social policies on gay rights, right to privacy, and reproductive rights. It is the economy first however. I will cut Obama some slack. He has been right every time.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

27. I am so disgusted with this choice

Rick Warren would be an unknown preacher, one of many with a megachurch, and maybe not even that if he hadn't been made famous for authoring the book that kidnapped woman read. After that time he did a lot of self promotion and soon everybody was making him famous and wealthy.

I was going to say a lot in this post because this just sickens me. I changed my mind because I support President Obama and do not want my anger about this issue to cause me to say things I would surely regret.

I will turn off my TV Machine though during the invocation, and if Rick Warren were any kind of peace maker he would decline the Obama offer.

[kag]

31. That's a great idea!

How about a boycott of Warren during the invocation. Everyone watching TV turns it off. Everyone who is THERE, quietly turns their back.

I think the choice of Warren is sickening, but I don't want to see it do further harm to Obama's presidency. It is (the act of inviting this idiot), after all, a symbolic gesture. So if we all make a symbolic gesture of our own, perhaps Obama and the world will get the message. That is, the message that if this were to be a cabinet appointment, or, God forbid (if you believe in such things) a judicial appointment, he would have REAL opposition on his hands.

Choosing Warren was stupid, and the backlash is large, but I think it is nothing compared to the uprising he would have if this were an appointment to a position of real power.

Just my opinion.

[SargeXXX]

28. Warren can change churches.... I can't change my sexual orientation.

[TankLV]

30. I know one thing - I intend to make this a big deal up to and thru the inauguration!

I've already withdrawn my desire to take the day off to see the bigot's inauguration.

I will talk this up and stoke the fires with all my friends, and I will remain SILENT when the repukes at work denegrate him.

THE HONEYMOON IS OVER!

unless he sacks this BIGOT...

and it's a DISTURBING PATTERN now - a LONG HISTORY now for obama...

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[keroro gunsou]

37. oh how cute

a troll....

[Maat]

33. Well-put, Rachel!

I'm going to be down in Lake Forest tomorrow sending Rev. Rick a message.

[George II]

35. No it didn't - SepArate but equal ended years ago.

[Snotcicles]

38. He says delayed gratification is a sign of maturity,

Ok slide a Pork Chop in front of this guy and start the timer.

[jeff30997]

46. Lol.Good point.

He should try to cure himself of his hypocrisy,greed and bigotry.

[MNBrewer]

39. Obama will gleefully KEEP Warren on the program

just to piss off his gay base (and our supporters) to prove his bona fides as a "centrist". Barack Obama doesn't care about gay people.

[Infinite Hope]

40. It's a church. They can include and exclude at will. Muslims will exclude Christians, etc. n/t

[dbmk]

56. Yeah, I fail to see the dirt

As presented at least. The chosen quote is nothing but what I would expect. Its their prerogative as a religious group/church.
They are free to believe whatever they think about marriage and homosexuality.

It just shouldn't have any bearing on laws and rights. And thats the question noone in position to do so seems to be effectively asking.

But its hardly news or "dirt" (as in newly discovered reprehensible actions/beliefs) to anyone here. Its not something that would change anyones minds.
"LOOK! He said gays can't join their church!"
"Well, duh!" - would be the answer.

It is so far beside the point.

Separation of church and state. Equal rights regardless of sex, belief and sexual preference. Thats where you fight.

You can't argue what religious groups should or should not beleive.

[meowomon]

41. Who is this glutton to judge me?

He says he lusts after beautiful women and he's married? I am a gay woman and I don't lust after beautiful women. I have been madly in love with my "not wife" for over 15 years. Rick Warren is the lowest form of pig.

[katandmoon]

42. Big fat liar tells big fat lie at 00:56

From the website Negative Body Language to Avoid:

"Avoid touching face when speaking. Rubbing nose, eyes, ears, head, or neck shows doubt in what you are saying or hearing."

Watch the fucker rub the shit out of his eye when he falsely claims to have many gay friends.

http://www.learnbodylanguage.org/negative_body_language.html

[ihavenobias]

45. K & R, good clip. n/t

[Ken Burch]

47. Don't you mean "AVOID fucking this guy"? Especially if you're a "beautiful woman"?

Not that I was aware of Saddleback Boy being a babe magnet, of course.

[deaniac21]

49. Why does it always seem that promises to the gay community are

ALWAYS forgotten as soon as the votes are counted?

[Ken Burch]

52. Maybe the Beltway Dems STILL think the LGBT activists cost Kerry the '04 race.

Even though we've proved there was massive vote fraud in Ohio and that the rest of the problems were solely due to Kerry's team refusing to fight back against RW smears.

[MindMatter]

51. There is an obvious, simple solution

Simply invite 10 pastors, 25 pastors, even 100 pastors to give invocations. Who says there must be one and only one invocation? Start the invocations at 4AM and let them run all day.

[Barbara2423]

54. Rachel took Warren's Statements out of Context

I like Rachel and I hope she does not start making up stuff like those other journalists. Just give us the facts and the people can figure out the truth.

[Binka]

58. She Did NO Such Thing She Played A Clip Of Him Speaking

There was NO out of context there. The gluttonous homophobic pig gave us the low down, and I mean low when he practically starting eating Anne during the interview. Rachel played a clip of the fat asshole revealing himself to be just that, A GREEDY GLUTTONOUS ASSHOLE.

She gave us the facts and we have figured out the truth. So sorry you feel compelled to make up stuff. PLONK for you darlin. Bye Bye.

[politicalmajority]

55. Has Rick Warren Ever Talked About Child Sex Abuse/Crime within the SBC Churches?

See http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm. It's one of the Time magazine's top 10 underreported stories. http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/top10/article/0,30583,1855948_1861760_1862212,00.html

As one of the most prominent Southern Baptist pastors, Rick Warren needs to talk first and foremost about the pedophilia within Southern Baptist churches and the Southern Baptist Convention's unwillingness to tackle this issue head on. Rick Warren cannot put the gay/lesbian issue and the abortion issue before the SBC pedophilia issue. If Rick Warren ignores this problem but keeps whining about gays and lesbians in this country and abortion, Rich Warren is clearly a hypocrite and potentially the Southern Baptist Convention's Bernard Law.

[gich]

60. Memo to Ms. Maddow

You are in danger of pigeonholing yourself to an audience that will not grow beyond its current reach. You are slowing sapping away the goodwill of many fans that found you refreshing during the run up to the elections. Sure, many of us were elated about your ratings and success.

The honeymoon is now over. The election is history. Now more and more your guests are the fringe and your topics of choice sadly unstimulating and frequently uninviting. Your attempt to belittle and distort Warren is a prime example. It was neither funny nor imaginative.

I would recommend you find a centrist balance to your approach. And no I don’t mean having more Patrick Buchanan on. This as a matter of practicality will ensure your growth and job security. Beyond MSNBC and DU-ers your appeal and potential is at best lukewarm.

[Norrin Radd]

61. Centrist balance? DU might not be the place for you...

And David Corn is hardly "fringe." Oh, and welcome.

[Binka]

64. Memo To You

Run along dear. Hopefully with scissors.

[MADem]

65. You don't seem to realize that MSNBC is the Fox News of the Left.

That's how they've branded themselves.

If we can't have equal time, we may as well have equal advocacy. It can't hurt.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sam sarrha]

76. ALL TV NEWS THEATER MEDIA IS ALL FOX'd UP.. NO DIFFERENCE IN ANY

CNN just caters its HATE mongering to a little more educated, middle class, perhaps occasionally more sophisticated viewer nitche

[MADem]

77. Yep, that's a fact.

Point it out here, though, and you'll be accused of being a right wing troll!

[Fedja]

66. errr

So equality as described in the Constitution is a fringe uninviting topic? You should drop by freerepublic, they'll love you over there.

[gich]

73. thks

So how does this work here?

I consider myself fiscally liberal and err on the conservative side socially.Is there room for such packages here?

BTW thanks for the recommendation about freerepublic. I do try to learn about others.

[Fedja]

74. I dunno...

I think "socially conservative" is an abused term, often used to camouflage or legitimize intolerance and hate. I briefly pondered my own fiscal versus social orientation when I read your post, but could only conclude that they were irrelevant in this case. My position on whether the GLBT people deserve the same rights provided to all other people in my world cannot and does not depend on my current political orientation.

You see, some things are civilized, and others are not. Personal freedom for all people, regardless of skin color, religion, gender or sexual orientation is right. Torture is wrong. Hunger is bad. Education is good. There are some basic theorems upon which the modern (western) society is constructed, and it just happens to be that the gay/lesbian members of our society should be considered our equals, both socially and legally.

Now as for your post, you defended Wright from being called a gaybasher on TV. I fail to see what you would like to base your argument on, other than your opinion that "centrist" constitutes someone who approves of socialized healthcare, but would like to keep the GLBT community in their unjustly ostracized place in society. Since Wright's church is specifically closed to "unrepentant homosexuals", I wonder.. Would you support a preacher inaugurating your President, if he was the leader of a church off limits to the "unrepentantly black"?

Social conservativism my ass. Look in the mirror and call it what it is.

[sam sarrha]

75. he is repressing his homosexuality.. homophobia is frequently a symptom fearing your own GAYness,