Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What if bushbots understand themselves better than we do?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:33 AM
Original message
What if bushbots understand themselves better than we do?
What counts as “normal” is human personality types? Are we engaging in a political contest with people whose brains don’t work like ours? Failing to understand one way or another will put us in a strategically weak situation. Just putting the following out as a tentative hypothesis—discussion most welcome.

In my understanding, human personality traits can be placed on continua. Bell curves are probably oversimplifications, but might serve as a starting point for discussion, with “neurotypical” being at the middle of the curve. Note however that people a couple of standard deviations in either direction can be perfectly functional socially. I’d also like to avoid any nature/nurture controversies—the empirical observations are the same either way, and where people fall on the continua certainly owes as much to life experience as to inborn traits. I’ll consider three distributions of traits—cheerfulness/depression, social intelligence, and empathy.

Cheerfulness/depression continuum

Grey pit dwellers-->wet blankets/sourballs-->neurotypical wearers of slightly rose-tinted glasses-->terminally perky

A few years back, one of my coworkers had an article hung in his cubicle describing the job performance of cheerful people versus sourballs, which concluded that the sourballs had more realistic perceptions of complex problems and were more likely to come up with deeper, more thorough and more creative analyses. The terminally perky were far more superficial. Depressed people, when evaluating their own job performances, tended to agree with others' evaluations of them--they did not underrate themselves; their performance evaluations were simply accurate. More optimistic people had higher opinions of themselves than others did.

It's well known that optimism and cheerfulness enhance the immune system and lead to better recovery from a whole spectrum of diseases, so individuals will be selected for that trait. The human norm is probably therefore having a somewhat rosy tint to perceptions of reality. However, it may well be that the tribe needs at least a few people to perceive more accurately what is really going on, and to more creatively deal with new situations, so there would be group selection for this. The price paid is that a few on the far end of the spectrum will periodically get trapped in the grey pit, the dark night of the soul. (To the extent that genetics is involved, it probably works like the distribution of sickle cell hemoglobin genes in malaria-prone regions. The price for having half the population malaria-resistant is having 25% of the population with sickle cell anemia.)

Social intelligence continuum

Expert dolphin-like divers in the social swim-->neurotypicals-->nerds/geeks-->Asperger's syndrome-->high-functioning autistics--> completely dysfunctional head-banging autistics

Human social connectedness depends on the ability of most people to read social signals. However, it is also clearly beneficial to human society to have some of its members partly stripped of that ability so that they can perceive reality logically without dealing with misleading conceptions deriving from pure social utility. That’s where we get scientists and engineers from. (Charismatic politicians are at the other end of the spectrum.) The price we pay is that a few people will be doomed to spending their lives banging their heads on hard surfaces.

I’m not discounting possible environmental causes of autism here, just suggesting that we are possibly looking at an overlay of environment-related cases sitting on top of a full spectrum of personality types within a normal range. Similarly, type I and type II diabetes are very different conditions despite the fact that they have problems with blood sugar control in common.

I think that the male/female differences come about because it can be absolutely lethal for women to be unable to read social signals emanating from those who commonly kill or maim them for such misreadings. Whether by biology or sex-role socialization or both, it is the case that girl geeks are usually somewhat less geeky than boy geeks—this enables them to mediate between boy geeks and society at large, even though they are generally unable to keep up with the junior high female “in” crowd.

Empathy continuum

Sociopaths-->near sociopaths-->soldiers/emergency workers-->the neurotypically empathic-->altruists-->hearts tending to bleed uncontrollably all over almost everything

Empathy is the human norm--we really do feel other peoples' pain. It creates social bonds because acting to relieve others’ pain relieves our own psychological distress. However, it is also necessary to be able to suppress empathy for self-defense and dealing with assorted emergencies. Your chances of survival are greatly enhanced if your emergency room team does not feel your pain, but instead treats you like a malfunctioning meat machine until your vital signs are stabilized. If we need to suppress empathy occasionally to survive, it immediately follows that a few people will inevitably turn out to be entirely too good at it--hence sociopathology. To sociopaths, others are never anything but objects to be used for their own benefit. On the other end of the spectrum are people almost incapacitated for self defense because of their intense empathy—that’s where religious traditions like Jainism come from.

Looking at phenomena like the high suicide rate among police officers and the incidence of PSTD in people exposed to battle conditions, we seem (thankfully) to not have enough people trending toward sociopathology to completely fill our needs for protection/emergency career positions. PSTD exists because the majority of our cops and soldiers are neurotypically empathic.

So, what does all this have to do with bushbots?

Of the three continua I have described, I think that they are different from us on the empathy continuum. I’d label them as near-sociopathic, not Ted Bundy-style complete sociopaths, but having the same relationship to Ted Bundy as people with Asperger’s syndrome have to head-banging autistics. The parts of their brains that process the information “How would I like it if someone did that to me?” function either poorly or only intermittently. And it’s a common enough condition that I sure wish there was a common readily recognizable term analogous to Asperger’s syndrome that we could use to describe them.

It explains at least a few things, like frinstance how rule-bound and authoritarian they are. This indicates deviation from neurotypical empathic ability. Consider how Asperger’s syndrome people deal with their inability to read social cues—they use a rulebook based on careful observation of neurotypical behavior. (#47. When a neurotypical says “How are you?” this is not actually a request for detailed information.)

Theologians, confonting the observation that people who did not share their particular religious beliefs nonetheless mostly behaved perfectly reasonably toward each other, came up with the concept of natural law. That is, inborn empathy is the foundation of human ethics and the source of the Golden Rule proverbs found in every known human culture. Lao Tzu famously observed “When virtue is lost, benevolence appears, when benevolence is lost right conduct appears, when right conduct is lost, expedience appears.” In other words, discard natural human empathy and immediately you need a lot rules and regulations to make people behave ethically.

So, perhaps the bushbot insistence on punitive law enforcement and displaying the Ten Commandments everywhere reflects their self-awareness as defective people who need a rule book. Lots of sociopaths and near-sociopaths, after all, can function perfectly well in society if they decide that following the rules is more convenient and pleasant for them than not following the rules. Naturally a near-sociopath will perceive us neurotypically empathic types as “bleeding hearts,” because that’s how someone in the middle of the continuum looks to them from their position at the other end of it.

Situational sociopathology

Consider the well-known experiments of Stanley Milgram, which demonstrate clearly that just about anybody is capable of sociopathic behavior under the right conditions. This is analogous to situational depression, which results not from a generic personality tendency to be in that place on the continuum, but from specific lousy things that happen to people. Similarly, widespread situational sociopathology can result from truly threating events, like the 9-11 attacks. The urge to strike back indiscriminately will eventually fade as we get back to normal, just as we eventually recover from the death of someone close, divorce, job loss and the like.

So, we have a core group of near-sociopaths that aren’t going to change, and the rest of us who can temporarily act like them. If that first group isn’t too large, we’re in luck. All it takes to devalue the bushbot memes is for more of us to be like the actors in Milgram’s experiment. A single voice saying “No, don’t apply more intense shocks” snapped the rest of of his experimental subjects out of their befuddled-by-authority state.

Any suggestions on realistically dealing with the minority of incurable bushbots? Just let them have their Ten Commandment monuments? Go along with a really punitive legal system to some extent? What?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very Good
I think you may have something there. The relative lack of ability to empathize, coupled with the need for regulation (i.e. knowing themselves just well enough to know they need regulation), accounts for the projection we see at every turn.
("I would misbehave, given the chance, hence we must not give them the freedom to misbehave")

The continuums (continuui? ha!) might be tweaked by some of our professionals, but it will be interesting to see your responses.

nominated
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. I call them the upside-down people.
Good is Bad, Right is Wrong, War is Peace, Bush is Christian, etc.
They seem to have a serious problem with reality, and I personally ascribe it mostly to all that silly christian bullshit shoved down their throats all their lives. I can't see how anyone can have a view of reality that is anything less than totally warped after a life of ooga-booga big daddy on the one side, and consume consume consume! coming from the other side. Their brains appear to be damaged!

But maybe it's just me...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. The guy who's renovating the house next door to me...
stops by occasionally to chat if he sees me outside.

He's a big-time Repuke hot shot DC landlord type (complete with shiny black Hummer), who thinks Rudy G. will be the next president.

Anyway, he told me that I'd need to get in good with the neighbors if I plan to do any renovations. After all, you have to be nice to them so they won't complain about your construction noise.

As if that would be anyone's only reason for being nice to the neighbors!

Our neighbors are great! Most of them have already introduced themselves, offered treat bags and baked goods, and invited us to dinner!

Which brings me to your post...

BushBots really do seem to need the "rule book" you mention, even to tell them to be nice to the neighbors for personal gain!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Republicans are followers, suck ups and need someone
to tell them how to think!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Batgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. thanks for the thoughtful attempt to grapple with a big subject
I really think you're onto something, especially the speculation that some of these personality types might, to some degree and in some ancient circumstances, actually have provided our species with important survival benefits. Is some of what we're seeing now actually happening because our species is trying to evolve past behavioral tendencies that at one time may have served a useful purpose? (Not trying to sound condescending, as I am well aware of having various "unevolved" traits in my own personality.)

I, too, wonder if developing a better understanding of how personality type relates to political leanings -- might end up being a key piece of the puzzle. It's obviously a hugely complex subject, but I intuitively think it holds part of the answer to the incredible gulf that separates "us" (everyone who by now has seen through the Bush flim-flam) from "them" (the Bushbots who maintain a self-willed, blind allegiance to GWB in spite of the increasingly obvious evidence that their loyalty is misplaced.)

I wouldn't be concerned with understanding what makes them tick if there were too few of them to threaten the health of our democracy. But the fact that Bush's (no doubt artificially inflated) poll numbers are even in the low double digits at the end of such a revelatory year means there are still way too many who, in the face of reality, don't even have to be ordered to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." They already responded with the immature tactic of squeezing their eyes shut, sticking their fingers in their ears, and repeating "you can't make me look, la la la la la!"

The most extreme ones, we'll never get them to open their eyes. But maybe we can chip away at the less extreme ones occupying the next slice of the continuum.

Books have been written on how to deal with the difficult personalities in our lives, persons we may not be in a position to avoid (family members, coworkers, bosses and the like.) It's almost certain that at some point every one of us will have to interact with bullies, narcissists, liars, etc. And there are specific recommendations for how to communicate with these sorts of people to defuse volatility and keep oneself from being abused emotionally. I wonder if it would be helpful if we could figure out how to do someting like that on a massive scale.

I wonder if ways could be found for the Democratic party to reach people who tend to hover on that side of the continuum, many of whom I'm convinced are basically decent on some level. And I do mean by appealing to that decency, not by pandering to their baser natures.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You're right--there has to be a way
If my hypothesis is in any way connected to reality, then most of them have at least a little capacity for empathy. How to switch it from intermittent to being more consistently on?

I haven't done more than skim any of the books you mentioned--anything that jumps out at you as having some immediate practical application? If so, let's hear it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Batgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. wish I knew which books would be useful
I did read one, "Why is is Always About You: Saving Yoruself from the Narcissists in Your Life", a couple of years ago. I was looking for advice on how to cope with my boss at the time. (It helped, a little.) If I can dig it up, I might reread it for completely different reasons. But I don't recall it offering insights that I'd be able to apply on a large scale such as what we're talking about.

Here's a link I found to an online bookstore that might be a way to find more helpful books: http://www.mhsanctuary.com/books/index.html

What you've brought up here is so intriguing, wouldn't it be great if someone wrote a book specifically addressing the subject?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. you are my kind of guy
I really like your post.
Your way above the average DU....near the top in fact.

Your discussion intrigues me...but theory like this at this point in US history won't save the masses.
We'll have to point out the obvious before we proceed to calculus.

I think back to my dad and the way he talks about the great depression.
It's all about basic fairness.

People on their own accord don't rally for fairness.
This is part of the psyche of many admirable people....but not when it comes to putting dinner on the table.

It is the system of government which makes us what we are.
Take the population here in the US....raise them under the conditions of USSR over the same number of years...and you get the same result.

We are under the system.
Either we make the system work for US....or else the system will fail us.

The capitalistic theory holds that we can be efficient....and provide for the people...and this is generally true as compared to pathetic socialistic or communistic systems of the past.

But we're now in the new millenium...let's get past ancient history.
Let's try and come to grips with what it will actually take to make capitalism work for the people.

Is there any other reason we're here on planet earth.
Or is it to put the control of the planet in the hands of the few that simply happened to inherit it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. That would be 'gal', but thanks anyway :-)
True that I'm being pretty theoretical here, but one of our practical political problems is dealing with a hard cord of merciless people that aren't going to be changed--maybe 15-20% of the population, but with power far beyond their numbers. And for us to, say, advocate putting them in concentration camps would mean that they have turned us into situational sociopaths and won indirectly.

Tolerating intolerance is one of those squaring the circle problems, and I've noticed that just about everybody on this thread doesn't have any more of a clue of how to proceed that I do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Please read my post "Issues for 2006" and let us discuss this some more
In a free enterprise system which allows for a statistical spread of results.....some will emerge as good businessmen...while others will not.

The only way a capitalistic free enterprise system can survive the "bad people" or "bad forces" that might work against it is in these important ways....

a. A progressive tax does not allow a few million Americans to get to a point where they are clearly above the law, above the government, can invest in other countries with no loyalty to this country, etc...just for the purpose of making a buck. This is where we're at now. These people many have been much more respectful of this country if they hadn't been given the opportunity to become so decadent by Reaganomics, Bushco etc in the first place. They would have led happy lives as billionaires, and there would have been many other millionaires, billionaires to fill in where they tend to dominate.

b. Responsible goverment spurs quality investments and quality enterprises. Unless there is a "moderator" or "referee" involved in a free enterprise capitalistic system, you'll have foul play. We can't fix this by giving people therapy, but we can fix it by making sure the rules are fair.

What I think really has to be achieve in a psychological way is an "awakening" to some basic facts. Most people I talk to are groundless....confused as to which end is up....how did we ever get into this problem?

They listen to the rhetoric of Reagan and now Limbaugh/Bushco and think....well it kind of makes sense that I should be able to keep my money....I CAN spend it better than the government.

But that's not the issue.
The issue is we must maintain the health of our country.
We cannot make an argument that 1% of the country has to be stinking rich, irresponsible....with the rest treading water or losing.

That doesn't make sense does it?

We're not taught these things in grade school, high school, or college. It takes a personal investment to get to the point where you realize what it takes for capitalism to actually work.

Capitalism works for the people when it is responsible, and when it results in quality enterprise which reinvests in its primary workforce....the middle class.

This is EDUCATION primarily....with solid historical proof to go with it.
Although mass psychosis is a FALLOUT of the problems we have today...
Education really is the answer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. A very interesting essay - thanks!
I always find myself wondering why right-wing ideas so often come across as uncaring, even black-hearted and soulless (think Cheney). Your comments about the "empathy gap" go a long way toward explaining what has gone wrong with the moral compass these folks use. They always seem so mean-spirited, and they tend to yell and sputter with outrage (think Limbaugh), yet the stances they take so often seem fundamentally un-Christian and un-American (and unpopular in the society at large).

I wish it weren't so hard to talk to right-wingers, and that they weren't so weak on self-analysis and critical thinking. Is there a right-winger qualified to comment on this essay - to show us the view from the Other Side?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. I've posted it in a couple of places that have pet wingers
No luck so far--they don't want to grapple with the notion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wadestock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's no where near a minority
It represents the downfall of modern capitalism....turning fascist, greedy, and self-destructive.

Are the people controlling the "machine" or is the machine controlling the people.

In this case....it's not a subtle drift of personality shift, but a wholesale mass psychosis brought on by an irresponsible interpretation of what capitalism is supposed to mean.

Capitalism without responsibility breeds this neurosis.

As you may suspect, it all started with Reagan. A free ride. It's your money....you know how to spend it better than the government.
Sounded nice from a grandfather type with a soft voice.

Remember JFK? Ask not what your country can do for you....ask what you can do for your country.

Nice line...but not really on the mark.
The real point is this. If you think the country is there to create an environment which optimizes personal success....go create yourself another country. This one believes in responsible capitalism.

The shift of money to the top has created a wealth base of 50 Trillion dollars in the hands of only a few million people. This base is so stinking rich and above the law that they are above the very constitution which we hold so dear and figure will protect us no matter what.

The cat is out of the bag.
Absolute power...ie money in the hands of a few....has corrupted this country.

The process of "survival of the fittest"....is no longer true in this version of capitalism. In fact....the ones with the money are much less representative of the cream of our society...and with the ability to make money on top of money....they are becoming the "bad business owners"....who have no ability to understand such important concepts of quality management or human resource management.

The alarming tilt in wealth disparity we see now is a similar situation to what happened before the great depression. The difference now is we have an unbelievably huge debt...and the fix will not occur through rebalancing the wealth distribution... but also through a large scale selling off of our debt to other nations...particularly rising China and India.

Whether this is a plus or minus is how the rest of the world will pick up the pieces after our capitalistic party implodes.

The nuerosis you speak of isn't wholesale in other european countries, as much as Americans would like to believe. Most other countries are now better eductated, and have a much stronger nationalistic belief that their country will be there for them. They are making strides in technologies that will invest in their infrastructure.

The real unknown is China. They are showing themselves to be even worse decadent capitalists than we are!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. But doesn't this tendency predate capitalism?
I think that you are right that the dog-eat-dog ethos does indeed aggravate the tendency, but according to my model that would be more of the situational sociopathology without too much influence on the ingrained sort. Check out all the ancient empires for illustrations. (Aztec cannibalism is especially gruesome--at least the burgeoisie doesn't eat the proletariat!)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. kickin for more commentary...n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. Interesting.
I would suggest there are sociopaths who enjoy getting ther hands bloody, and others who want to keep their hands clean. Perhaps equally important is the concept of the banality of evil, which seems to fit clean hands like gloves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. I actually know a diagnosed, borderline-sociopath
who completely fits your theory. He **loves** Rush L.

Thanks for taking the time to put all this into such a clear little essay. Wish I had some ideas about what to do about it...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Is there an official word for him that you know about?
I mean analogous to Asperger's syndrome vs. autism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. No, unfortunately.
He just said, "Hey, I just took a personality test with a psychologist and I scored borderline sociopath!" Somehow I wasn't surprised...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
19. Anybody know any bushbots who are normal people?
Not what Barbara Ehrenreich once called "snarling citizens"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. Very interesting
I like the fact that you attempt to figure them out, because I think that it is necessary to understand what we're up against.

I don't have answers to your questions -- just guesses. This is obviously a very complicated, though important issue.

But at this point in time my view of the matter is simpler than yours. I don't see Bush and his backers as part of a continuum, rather I see them as evil (I'm not talking about all the sheeple who follow him, but rather the active backers behind his rise and maintenance of power). What that means is that there is no reasoning with them, no compromising, no trusting. Pure and simple, they must be defeated.

Some might say that I sound like them when I say that. I hope that isn't an accurate assessment of me, but that's the way I feel about it. I think that this country is in for a long hard fight if we want to preserve our democracy, and I think that the best preparation for doing that is to recognize that we're up against an evil enemy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC