What "Great" or "Near Great" president do you think actually...sucked?

[WI_DEM]

or at least didn't deserve to be considered "Great" or "Near-Great"?

I think perhaps Woodrow Wilson. He was very inflexible and, like Bush, believed that he was always in the right--that he was governed by "Divine providence." Yes, some of his reforms in his first term were necessary and he deserves to be applauded for that. But his inflexibility also killed American participation in the League of Nations. He also was opposed to women being given the right to vote, presided over the beginning of Prohibition--one of the biggest fiasco's in American history and was a ardent segregationist. I don't know, perhaps he was just a product of his time.

Your thoughts?

On edit:

I see all the Reagan responses, and I guess I forgot that many do think of Reagan as a "near great" but I think it really is too early in his case for the historians. I think as the years go by his standing will drop and Carter's will rise--which has already begun.

[David Dunham]

1. Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower are vastly overrated

[WI_DEM]

16. I disagree about Ike

I think he deserves credit for trying to rein in the Pentagon during his administration and cut defense spending and warning the nation about the "Military Industrial Complex". He also didn't agree with giving tax cuts unless they could be paid for.

[MannyGoldstein]

38. Ike Was A Flaming Liberal - Read The Evidence!

Ike was a flaming Liberal; in fact, I've written an essay on this.

(sorry, shameless plug for my little web site... but it is on-topic...)

[ThomWV]

2. Kennedy

What did he do? Dam near started WW III in cuba and got us into Viet Nam big time.

[NNadir]

7. I agree Kennedy is over-rated, but not more than Reagan.

The most under-rated in the twentieth century was Harry Truman.

[Poll_Blind]

12. Agreed- Reagan was way more over-rated than Kennedy. It's...

...amazing the Cult of Reagen that has sprung up lately, too, among the Neocons trying to sucker regular, thinking conservatives, into their wicked fold.

PB

[Poll_Blind]

10. Yeah, from what I know I generally agree. Kennedy was a brand...

...that alot of people bought into. However, with the Camelot Mistique aside, I don't see him as the near-diety he's been made out to be. I think he did some good things but if you really want a great president I think Bill Clinton fits the bill more.

PB

[MnFats]

20. gotta disagree....the CIA was already planning...

...to overthrow Castro when JFK took office. He was horrified but couldn't stop it.
...then he saved the world's ass during the cuban missle crisis.
...and I think, had he lived, he might have backed away from involvment in vietnam....yeah, he sent troops there but
he was distrusting the CIA at that time.
It was Johnson, with his phony Gulf of Tonkin resolution, that got us mired in Vietnam....


but to answer the question: Ronald Reagan is certainly the most over-rated moron ever to hold the presidency.
some people want to carve him into mt rushmoor...if that happens i think it will take an army of vandals to make things right.

[NNadir]

34. I can't imagine anything more funny that JFK being "horrified."

He was completely amoral. He never was horrified by anything, and that was his problem.

Much of Kennedy's claim to fame is people projecting their fantasies on to what he "would have" done. He was a pure cold warrior.

[Marie26]

59. Amorality

We like to blame Johnson for Vietnam, but Kennedy supported the war just as much. He was just there at the beginning of the war before its escalation. There's a haunting audio of Johnson wondering about the purpose of the war, asking if it'd be a quagmire, wondering if it was worth the deaths of Americans. There's nothing similar to show Kennedy's doubts. He supported the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, I don't know why he wouldn't have supported the invasion of Vietnam. He became a legend after death cause America sort of created a "Camelot" vision of lost innocence & optimism around his time in office.

[Warpy]

31. He also lowered the top marginal income tax rate on the super rich

thus giving men like Scaife enough extra money to play with to seed all sorts of fascist organizations, buy politicians and judges, and set up the dismantling of the New Deal.

[tetedur]

36. Actually Kennedy saved us from WWIII & would have gotten out of VN

Admittedly, the Bay of Pigs was a big mistake. Note that it was planned during the Eisenhower/Nixon days. Kennedy learned from that fiasco. Because of careful deliberation with staff and "wise men" Kennedy stood up to the Russians and avoided nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis while only giving up missiles in Turkey. Watch "Thirteen Days" for an example of how real leadership handles real problems. I only wish we had that kind of leadership today.

Kennedy's stated policy for Vietnam was withdrawl of 1000 men by December and a total pull out by 1965 (there were 16,000 "advisors" in Vietnam in 1963.) The documents that lay out this policy were written in October 1963. Johnson signed the document that reversed Kennedy's policy November 26, 1963. 1000 men did come home from Vietnam in December 1963. Vietnam was not a true military operation until 1965. Had Kennedy lived out his term and been re-elected our world would have been very different from what it is now.

[AX10]

44. Exactly

and welcome to DU tetedur! :hi:

[AX10]

43. WRONG! JFK worked aggressivly to stop war.

He pissed off the hawks, GOP, CIA, and the MIC by not being a hawk. Also, it was John Foster Dulles who started the debacle in Vietnam and it was LBJ who escalated the war.

JFK would have been one of the greatest Presidents had he not been assasinated.

[Quixote1818]

48. Thank you for setting the record straight! nt

[mantis49]

62. I agree about Kennedy, but for different reasons.

He gets credit for fighting for civil rights, but my understanding is that Bobby had to push him into doing anything. He was very reluctant for political reasons. Then, LBJ took it up big time after his death. JFK gets too much credit for it.

Yes, he did get us into Viet Nam big time, then LBJ made it worse.

[Marthe48]

74. Bay of Pigs was all set up before Kennedy took office

so I've read.


Reagan was the worst, I will never forgive him turning back the clock on fair labor practice.

[leftupnorth]

3. bring on the bombs

but Clinton.

for NAFTA, and the Telecom Act.

he did know how to run a campaign and win, though.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. worse than reagan? or just disappointing as a liberal?

cos when you have a president like reagan i can understand why one would pick clinton

[baldguy]

75. Who said Clinton was a liberal?

[Catch22Dem]

8. You'll actually find a lot of agreement

Regarding NAFTA. I think he was a very good president, and our economy was rockin' while he was president, but we each have issues that are more important to us than others, and I'm not gonna begrudge you that.

[Catch22Dem]

4. Reagan and Bush II

Simply stated, the worst things to happen to this country in any of our lifetimes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. reagan

[YDogg]

9. Reagan. Fuh Shizzle.

Or should that be "Rizzle. For Sure."?

[Odin2005]

11. Reagan, JFK, Wilson

Reagan: Obvious.

Kennedy: Drove Castro into the hands of the USSR with the whole Bay of Pigs debacle.

Wilson: What WI_DEM said.

[tetedur]

40. Eisenhower drove Castro to the USSR

After the revolution, Castro got on a plane and came to Washington, unannounced, to meet with Eisenhower. Castro had seized the Mafia's property in Cuba and the President refused to meet with him. Instead he sent Nixon to talk to him. He needed aid. When Castro didn't find a helping hand in America, he got back on the plane and flew to the USSR where they were more than ready to "help" him.

[Selatius]

13. Wilson jailed anti-war protesters/socialists

He was as bad as they come. You know when was the first real Red Scare? It wasn't after WWII. It was under Wilson.

[MadisonProgressive]

14. Reagan is the obvious choice

although I heard a guy in a bar a few weeks back say 'Bush is the greatest president ever - at least in my lifetime' - and he was talking about junior! So by that standard I would say shrinky-dink.

[liberal N proud]

15. All the blow about Reagan is nothing but bull shit

anyone who tried to find employment while the "gipper" was in office knows all too well what Reaganomics is all about. Learned more about economics from the Reaganomics lessons than in 4 years of college.
Every time I hear a repuke boast about how great Regan was, I almost puke.

[PWRinNY]

17. Reagan

He made the lives of poor American children even worse. Poverty wasn't enough for him, he had to make sure they starved AND went naked.

[Skittles]

18. Reagan was just f***ing terrible

if ever there was an overblown legacy, he is it.

[G_j]

19. Reagan n/t

[searchingforlight]

21. Nancy Reagan hands down! - nt

[htuttle]

22. "Old Mother Reagan went to the Pearly Gates of Heaven..."

"...and was stopped." (Violent Femmes, 1986)

Reagan's coronation as a 'great president' is further evidence of the corruptions of truthful public discourse in this country. Nothing he did really worked (anyone else remember David Stockman?), yet he claimed credit for things he had little to do with. Plus, the fact that he escaped indictment for the many Constitution-abridging scandals in his administration only went to encourage later adminstrations that they could act with impunity.

I also agree with you on Woodrow Wilson. Really kind of a bastard when you learn more about him than they teach you in grade school.

[MrSlayer]

23. That fuckin Zack Taylor is so overrated.

I'm so tired of the Whig party holding him up as a god.

[Marie26]

33. I agree.

However, I'm very sad that a party with such a silly name has disappeared. Such a loss for us all.

[marylanddem]

24. Reagan is very overrated by lovesick republicans n/t

[Marie26]

25. Chester Arthur

He wasn't all that.

[Art_from_Ark]

50. Arthur wasn't so bad

He was chosen to be James Garfield's running mate because of his reputation as a reliably manipulable party hack, but once he was President, he started showing a little independence from his Republican handlers. So much independence, in fact, that they refused to endorse him for a second term, nominating instead James G. Blaine, who ultimately lost the election of 1884 to Democratic candidate Grover Cleveland.

[Marie26]

55. OK, you've convinced me

:) Well, you know a whole lot more about him than I do! I was just so surprised to find out he was actually a President that the name stuck. He might be our most obscure President ever. But, as you point out, probably not a bad guy.

[The Whiskey Priest]

26. George Washington

at heart a Federalist..which equated to an aristocrat.

[Art_from_Ark]

51. But Washington refused to be treated like a king

and willingly retired after 2 terms. Not what one might expect from someone who was truly aristocratic at heart.

[Cleita]

27. Reagan, hands down, in my lifetime anyway.n/t

[Oversea Visitor]

bush

but grrrr he not great not even near great
So cant say bush
He bottom of pit when come to greatest
Aaaah below bottom, negative, will have special place in history for his performance.

[StraightDope]

28. Harry S. Truman...

He got us into Korea, unleashed nuclear weapons on the world, and started the cold war.

SD

[AtomicKitten]

29. Reagan blows

Yet he is perceived as a demigod by Republicans.

[bammertheblue]

32. Just the fact

that he TOTALLY dropped the ball on HIV/AIDS makes so angry. There was no excuse for that whatsoever.

[AtomicKitten]

41. Rumor has it he never even mentioned it. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. He DID mention it.

Not until 1985, and probably wouldn't have then if not for Rock Hudson.

[Warpy]

30. Truman

He dropped the bomb on two "pristine" (non military) targets to see what it would do. He signed the NSA into existence, thus creating a shadow government accountable to no one that has poisoned US foreign policy for over half a century; he signed the CIA into existence without enacting the safeguards that would have prevented the cowboy faction from acting as the NSA's private army.

I don't care where the buck stopped. He sucked.

[blindpig]

72. Not to mention his presiding over the beginnings of the Military

Industrial Complex. Vastly overrated, particularly by our side.

[mountainvue]

35. Reagan. Why does anyone

think this guy was a great president?

[DemGirl7]

39. My Brother-in -law just adores Reagan.

He thinks Reagan was the greatest president that ever lived, he blames Carter for all the current problems in the middle east,and he voted for * both times too. Thats the kind of person.

[Yupster]

37. Easy one -- Lincoln

He proves that if you win, no one remembers anything else.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. You realise that's going to get you flamed, yeah?

Not that I necessarily disagree...things like suspending habeas corpus, imprisoning newspaper editors, and deploying Federal troops to border areas like Kentucky and Maryland to ensure that elections went the "right" way have a whiff of proto-fascism to them. (Odds are that if Abe were around today he'd give the Patriot Act and the NSA wiretapping a hearty endorsement; extra-constitutional abuse of executive power was something he had no problems with.)

[Marie26]

57. Good points

We forget sometimes all the mistakes Lincoln made (though he's my favorite President). I've heard right-wing commentators use Lincoln to defend Bush's NSA spying because "Lincoln took emergency wartime measures too."

[Raiden]

46. Reagan...no doubt

What did he do that was so great? He certainly wasn't responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union like all his right-wing worshippers so often claim. He may have contributed, but so did all his predecessors. It was decades of foreign policy and internal troubles that were responsible for the fall of the USSR. Nobody contributed more to the fall of the Soviet Union than Gorbachev. Reagan is lucky that Gorbachev was in office while he was president because any other Soviet Premier would have been much more belligerent, especially with Reagan's fierce jingoism. I actually think that Reagan's antics probably prolonged the USSR's existance. His rhetoric probably gave the Soviet government and people more resolve. "The Soviet Union as the Evil Empire"? Is that really what should be said to a dying enemy? No one should be so arrogant.

But I agree about Woodrow Wilson. He was oblivious to the human rights abuses that were going on right here in the United States. Lynchings were ignored, The Red Scare was the first real example I can think of of McCarthyist tactics. Plus, he entered us into WWI, which was not our fight, over the sinking of a civilian ship which was in fact carrying munitions illegaly. Whoops. But at the same time, he was a great idealist who actively pushed for a global government. Had Henry Cabot Lodge not opposed our entry into the League of Nations, maybe, just maybe, WWII might never have happened. Wilson is about 50/50 either way. Dubya meets JFK. Weird combination.

[AntiCoup2K4]

47. Ronald Wilson Reagan (666)

Easily the most overrated President in History.

[Berry Cool]

49. Reagan...way overrated.

He was the original "all hat, no cattle." A triumph of image over substance.

[Art_from_Ark]

52. You can say that again

:hi:

[mikelewis]

53. John Q. Adams - FUJQA!!!!

Just cause his daddy was some fucking war hero, this guy who actually dodged the entire war by signing up the the Air National Guard, when there were no FUCKING AIRPLANES, this guy has the balls to claim that he's so American. He's a spoiled Tory whose secret goal was to sell us back to England for 30 pieces of silver. That fucking Judas. I hate him. DAMN YOU John Quincy Adams, DAMN YOU TO HELL.

[stevedeshazer]

54. I thought McKinleyomics really hurt the economy

And that wacky Spanish-American War. Sheesh.

[hyphenate]

56. Just add me to the Reagan list eom

[Walt Starr]

58. Ronald Reagan was the second worst president in history

and sadly, I have lived through the four worst presidencies in history:

#4: George Herbert Walker Bush
#3: Richard M. Nixon
#2: Ronald Wilson Reagan
#1 George Walker Bush

[dogday]

61. The number of homeless thrived under Reagan

During his presidency, Reagan managed to displace more citizens than ever. I have to say he is responsible for the condition of the poor...

[lpbk2713]

60. Raygun ---- Hands down, no contest.

He was a "B" Grade actor and a "C" Grade president.

His ol' lady's astrologer did a better job of running the country.

[stubtoe]

63. Raygun.

Every time I'd see him on the tv I'd shout profanities like a lunatic. Couldn't help it - the guy had this infuriating way of lying to you with a big fat smile on his face. I guess maybe that's why some people think he's so "great" - takes a great liar to pull that off.

[Zomby Woof]

64. Reagan-Republicans and JFK-Democrats

Reagan's overrating speaks for itself. I can't tell you how many dittoheads in real life buy into the "He ended the Cold War!" :eyes: Rooster, credit, sunrise. His list of failures and screwjobs against the middle class and poor are legend. Iran-Contra, PATCO, the EPA failure, James Watt, Ed Meese, etc... ad nauseum.

As for Kennedy, I have to laugh at anyone who thinks that he would have got us out of Vietnam, when he not only escalated our involvement there, he had our tentacles all over SE Asia. He was an ardent Cold Warrior.

He would have never made the same strides in civil rights as LBJ did, but would have met the same fate regarding the war.

Kennedy's myth was sealed by the assassin's bullet. Had he lived, he may not even have been re-elected, and if he were, would be remembered as a mediocre president with one lucky mark on his record: The Missile Crisis.

[jeffrey_X]

65. No doubt....Reagan.

...

[oneoftheboys]

66. Kennedy or Lincoln.

To many people, assassination makes one great.

[calico1]

67. I am still totally and completely at a loss

as to why so many people depict Reagan as "great." I was in college during his reign. I think he sucked big time. Among the "nice" things I remember happening during his presidency is the spending cuts which cut into head start and child immunization programs for poor children. And I rememeber the book banning attempts. Classics that were banned from some school libraries.

[Marie26]

69. Image over reality

It seems like it was more the image of Reagan than the reality. He was the "father figure", the coach, the cowboy, who seemed to embody American values. People loved Reagan cause they loved America. Any reporting on his actual actions was sort of a distraction.

[calico1]

70. Well, it didn't fool me.

I was a young woman at the time but I thought he was a complete buffoon. I mean, he napped through half his presidency! LOL.

[SaveElmer]

68. None...all those considered "Great" or "Near Great" are worthy....

The Tope Ten in the CSpan rankings:

1. Lincoln
2. FDR
3. Washington
4. Teddy Roosevelt
5. Harry Truman
6. Woodrow Wilson
7. Thomas Jefferson
8. JFK
9. Dwight Eisenhower
10. LBJ

I have no quarrel with these 10 and believe all are worthy of the :great" or "near great" ranking. I might fiddle with the order a bit.

[WI_DEM]

71. So according to this list from 1933-1969 the US had one great

to near great president in a row: FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK and LBJ. And Four of the five were Democrats. It's kind of sad what we've had, overall, since then--Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II--only ones who have any real potential are Carter and Clinton. I think Carter grows every day compared to what we have or had.

[SaveElmer]

73. That makes sense though...

In the twentieth century the time those men were President were the most trying in that century...encompassing the Depression through the Civil Rights movement...

Carter will never be considered a near great, though I think he is underrated as a President. He will be like Ulysses Grant...remembered more for what he did outside the office. Remembered as Great Men, not necessarily Great Presidents...

Clinton's stock will rise, but absent any major crisis during that time, or bold new change in policy, he will never rise above Good. I say this as an admirer of his btw!