A question about polygamy

[BlackHeart]

No, I'm not thinking about becoming one (I asked the wife and she said no). Just curious if the religious polygamists in Utah actually get legally married or do they marry one wife and basically live with the other women. If they get legally married to all the women, how is that done without the state knowing about it. And if they are only shacking up with the rest of the women how is that illegal?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[MADem]

2. Marry one, the rest get welfare

Interesting website here http://www.polygamy.org/

[MountainLaurel]

3. They can only legally marry one

And usually the rest of the wives survive on public assistance because "technically" they are single parents. Also, I believe that the husband usually sets up the wives in separate households.

This recollection is coming from Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven." Go read it.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

5. Agreed -- great book n/t

[mzteris]

9. how can a guy afford

more than one household????

I never thought about the non-legal wife being able to get public assistance - but wouldn't DHS get suspicious about all those kids he has with all those women and "not paying child support"?

[MountainLaurel]

14. I would guess they don't know

You don't have to name a child's father to receive public assistance. (I'm assuming that you actually meant DFS, as in Department of Family Services, rather than Department of Homeland Security.)

[mzteris]

16. so the children are listed

as not having a father! (GASP!)

Here in NC - it's DHHS (Dept of Health & Human Services).

[LostinVA]

4. They only legally get married to one woman

And live with the rest. And have kids. Thus, they are able to do what they call, "bleeding the Beast," collecting huge amounts of public assistance better used elsewhere... even though many of the FLDS are rolling in dough...

[BlackHeart]

6. Is that state money or federal money

that they receive? Are their laws that make their living arrangement illegal? Should there be?

[Radio_Guy]

7. Polygamy is illegal, period

Even the Mormons discontinued the practice, though some offshoots go against the law and do it anyway. You could probably find a preacher who would perform the ceremonies, but that doesn't make the marriages legal. I find the criminalization of polygamy absurd. What consenting adults do is their business. I also believe a state regulated marriage should not begin with a church wedding (seperation of church and state) but that is another issue for another time.

As for the shacking up with multiple partners, I don't imagine that is illegal as long as marriage is not involved. Maybe someone who knows more about law can add to or correct this post.

[BlackHeart]

8. Ok- polygamy is illegal

but i guess my question is what is polygamy? Is it polygamy when a church performs a service or only when you go down to the court house and fill out the marriage certificate. Is it polygamy if I declare two or more women to be my wives even though only 1 of them is my wife on 'paper'? I agree that whatever consenting adults want to do is their own business.
FWIW- the reason I bring this up is there was a show on A & E a few minutes ago. I didn't get to see the whole show, so it got me curious.

[Radio_Guy]

10. I don't know if there is a computer database on it

But I assume (uh oh) if I married someone here in Alabama, and I married someone in Georgia, neither state would know I was married in the other state. I don't know if you could get away with even filing for a marriage certificate in the same state where you are already married.

This is just right off the top of my head. I haven't tried it, nor do I plan to. I'm having a tough time finding a first wife to worry about a second. :)

[Warpy]

11. The first wife may be legal

or they may all be religious marriages, only, with no marriage license or any other civil nicety.

It's a terrible system because the "wives" are generally brought in when they're still children, because the male can't possibly support them all and runs a welfare scam, and because polygamous marriages, even when they're religious marriages only, are illegal.

Now we find the patriarchs run teenage sons off because they want all the available female children for themselves.

It's a sick system and it should be the greatest shame of the Mormons that their leadership has winked and nodded at it for so many years.

[kestrel91316]

12. It's the welfare fraud that gets them every time.

The survive by sucking at the state teat while claiming to hate the state. They should be locked up for the sheer hypocrisy, if nothing else.

[BlackHeart]

13. Another question

do polyygamists point to something in the bible to justify their multiple marriages or did they just make this shit up so they could have a bigger supply of nookie?

[Igel]

17. Less Bible, more other sources.

Polygamy's in the Bible, but I'm unaware of any group in the last thousand years or so that claimed justification for polygamy from that source. Not saying there haven't been some.

Mormons look to J. Smith for his revelations.

Muslims look to the Qur'an and the Prophet, although IIRC he was allowed more than normal men. I've seen rumors that the way British Muslims get around the polygamy law is to marry the first wife (secular marriage will do) and then legally divorce her. But the divorce isn't per Islamic traditions, so it's not 'valid'. The law then lets him marry a second. Etc. Don't know if this actually happens, or if it's the warped fantasy of some teenager geek in Dover.

On the other hand, some Muslims do have a problem when they come to Western countries. Sa'udis may have up to four wives (at a given time); they come here on vacation, as students, or to work--either in the embassy or for business, or as imams--and suddenly they can't have three of their wives. My understanding is they declare one as wife and bring the others along as other than wives, if they can, or leave them behind.

[mzteris]

18. And J. Smith

just had the hots for other women - so he said GOD SAID he should have more wives.

[mzteris]

20. j smith bio

". . . Along with breaks in his relationships with ecclesiastical colleagues, a rift grew between Joseph and his wife, Emma. Although Emma continued to live with Joseph and bear him children, a problem arose between them in the 1830's which was never resolved. That problem was Joseph's pursuit of other women. Ever since Joseph had founded the Mormon church, his status as a prophet had brought him the adoration of his followers, including many attractive women. Seducing Mormon women was easy for him, and was apparently irresistible to him. As much as she was able, Emma tried to ignore Joseph's infidelities and pretended they had not happened. But once when she caught Joseph embracing a woman whom Emma considered her good friend, Emma lost control of herself and attacked the woman with a broomstick.

There is evidence that Joseph started to think about making plural marriage a moral practice within his church as early as 1831, one year after the church was founded. . . Meanwhile, he let a few trusted colleagues know that plural marriage had been sanctioned by God in a special revelation to Joseph. God, said Joseph, was no more opposed to polygamy in 1831 than He had been in the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who all had large harems.

Meanwhile, although Joseph had not announced God's sanction of plural marriage to the entire church, Joseph himself was practising it. He proposed what he called "celestial" marriage to a number of women, some of whom were already legally married to other men. Joseph considered celestial marriages to be on a higher plane than earthly marriages, lasting forever, and taking precedence over mundane marriages. Only polygamy - the custom of one man taking multiple wives was sanctioned. Women were not allowed to have more than one husband. . . When Joseph mentioned his revelation about plural marriages to Emma, she was beside herself with rage. . .

http://www.lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml

[genie_weenie]

15. Utah banned polygamy in 1890 to gain statehood

but my question is why shouldn't a man have as many wives as *HE* can support? If Bill Gates/Hugh Heffner wants 12 wives and the women are "okay" with the situation why can't he do it? What are the arguments against it? And isn't this whole debate about letting religious morality getting in the way?

Now I know in Darwinian terms what happens is a fight by the less well off males for the reduced pool of females? Resulting in murder, theft and kidnapping. And in the families of the multiple wives there is often tension for competing for the resources of the male for the woman and her offspring.

But, do those negatives mean that people should be FORCED by others or the Goddamn State to acquiesce?

[dr.strangelove]

19. Gay Marriage and Polygamy

This is the central argument made by proponents of polygamy. they cite the lawrence v. texas case in which SCOTUS told the state that what consenting adults do in the bedroom is none of the state's business. It is the basis for my argument that laws against gay marriage are not constitutional.

I do not have any problem with polygamy in theory, it is polygamy in practice that causes so much of a stir. The idea that Bill Gates or Hugh Hefner could support a dozen wives is my point exactly. Hugh lives in a house with three women who he engages in sexual relations with. Why can't he choose to marry all three. What business is it to the state. I say let anyone do this.

The problem I see is that polygamy in practice is not this Hugh Hefner situation, or even the family in the new HBO series Big Love. My problem is that polygamy in practice is the compound displayed in the HBO show. It is a system where teen age women are forced to marry the most senior men, often when the women are far younger than the legal age of consent. Young men are forced out of their homes and the compounds when they are teenagers to reduce the competition for wives. There is a system where rape and physical abuse is more than permitted, it is encouraged. Polygamy in practice is something I object to.

Now, I don't think we need to ban polygamy to prevent the abuses that are inherent in this system. we have laws and the administration of family services to prevent the child abuse and rapes that take place. We also have laws regarding abandonment and parent financial obligations. these laws need ot be enforced, and government officials who look the other way should be removed.

I am all for the individual right to live with and marry whomever you choose. I am against the abuses that take place in polygamy in practice. However if Hef or Gates want a dozen wives, or if you want two or three, I am all for it. I would never want more than one wife. She is all I have ever wanted in a partner.

[genie_weenie]

21. You make good points (allow me to bloviate)

And I am cognizant of the evils done by men in these societies and others. Some anthropologists claim all ancient warfare prior to civilization (and some since the advent of writing) have been over women and access to them. And even today look at much of the propaganda from Iraq (and previous wars) it focused on the illegal taking of women by invading armies.

I'm just hesitant to enforce the State's morality or my own upon other people by the barrel of a gun, which is what all laws break down to... And many of the arguments used about abusing the system I think work towards the elimination of the State.

I feel the same about gay marriage. Marry whomever you wish.

Of course, what really is at issue here (if you will allow me to further bloviate). Doesn't this really make people uncomfortable about whom they are being forced to associate with? Similar to the illegal question. Everyone in America wants to believe ALL other Americans hold a similar belief system as themselves, think like themselves and want the same EXACT things as themselves. And since people are being forced to confront beliefs they hold (maybe even on an unconscious level) they find themselves rebelling against a Leviathan Government which is demanding all Americans get along...

Hmmmm, any comments or thoughts?

[dr.strangelove]

26. Please, bloviate away

While I agree that sex and man's appitite for it have shaped our world's history, I am not sure I can grasp my arms around an arguement that sexual access to women (and men or children in some cases) were the driving force of all ancient wars. I have never read on this, thats just my initial reaction.

I actually support the enforcement of my morality on others, to a degree. The reason I think we should punish murderers and rapists is because the collective "we" have decided those actions are wrong and we can punish those who break the rules we set up. However, those actions involve intentional injury to others. Some people may feel actions that have no physical impact on others are just as immoral and should be punished. Unless there is clear evidence of the harm these actions do to others, I would not seek to enforce my morality for these "offense" onto others. I would choose not to do them, but others ae welcome to do so.

I think you hit an interesting point about people uncomfortable about whom they are forced to associate with. I don't buy into everyone in America wants all other Americans to conform to a similar belief system. I do think they want a common system of extremes that all will agree are taboo.

[genie_weenie]

28. A major case study

are the Yanomamö in South America. Their wars are all about sneaking into rival tribes lands and stealing women.

Remember the Rape of the Sabine Women?

My problem isn't that we shouldn't enforce morality it's that we have by proxy allowed the State to assume these powers of morality enforcement (which obviously not all Americans agree on) and what ends up happening is some people are forced (by the barrel of a gun) to change their behavior even though no participants are being coerced.

Well, thanks for the counterpoints and insight. Have a great night!

[helderheid]

22. key words: consenting adults - not always the case here in Utah

Many of the wives are children. It's truly disgusting and disturbing. I have no problem with polygamy (or polyandry) so long as it is between consenting adults .

[dr.strangelove]

23. I agree

Polygamy in practice often involves rape and child abuse. The forced marriages involve people legally unable to give consent due to their age. I agree that polygamy as it is most often practiced should be prevented, but not for the number of people in the relationship, but for the abuse directed at people in the relationships. Rape, child abuse, child abandonment assault and imprisonment should be investigated and those guilty of these crimes punished.

[Chovexani]

32. Monogamous marriage in practice often involves rape and child abuse

Should we ban that too?

The abuses you're talking about are pretty much specific to a particular group of people (religious fundie polygnists). There is nothing inherently wrong with any sort of polygamy, any more than there's anything inherently wrong with monogamous marriage, cohabitation, civil unions, or however consenting adults choose to express their love and committment for each other.

I'm in a polyamorous relationship myself, so this is a sore point for me. Fight the abuses and the abusers.

[helderheid]

33. hey you're preaching to the choir.

I agree with you. Relax.

[Chovexani]

34. Sorry about that.

I've been in flame wars about this almost nonstop for the last week or so on various boards. People are really judgemental, ya know? :(

[dr.strangelove]

35. Um, did I say we should ban polyamorous relationships?

I think I said I am fine with polygamy, but I object to the abuses that are common in these types of relationships. I said we don;t need laws to prohibit polygamy, but we need to enforce the laws that exist to prevent abuse, rape, abandonment and so on.

I understand you have been getting a lot os shit on this issue, ut please don;t jump on me when I am pretty sure you just said the exact same thing I did.

[nonconformist]

27. Good post; I agree. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

24. I think their church will marry them, but not the state. nt

[VelmaD]

25. One more time...let's be clear on terminology people

What is practiced by some Mormons and Muslims is NOT polygamy. Polygamy means having more than one spouse...no gender specified. In true polygamy everyone involved could have as many spouses as they wanted of whatever gender.

What is currently practiced by the groups I named above is polygyny...that's where men can have more than one wife.

Polyandry would be women having more than one husband.

I don't support systems that only allow polygyny. And I don't support a system that would only allow polyandry. But actual, real-live polygamy - where everyone involved is free to have whatever partners/spouses they chose - that I can get behind.

[helderheid]

31. thanks - I wasn't clear! And here I thought I was so smart for knowing

about polyandry! :)

[Chovexani]

29. It's the cohabitation they get them on.

(First off, as Velma pointed out, we're discussing polygyny here, which is a very specific term.)

I believe Utah has a common law marriage statute that says that any couple who cohabits for more than a specific amount of time (I forget how long) is considered common law married. So, to use the Big Love family as an example, Bill could be arrested for bigamy despite being only legally married to Barb, because he has been cohabiting with Nicki and Margene and would be considered married to them under the common law definition.

Hope that helps.

[YouthInAsia]

30. They make a fortune scamming the state outta welfare.

I saw something on Frontline once. Those ppl are NUTZ.