Coup vs refusing an unlawful order: Bush orders an attack on

[hedgehog]

Iran and the military says no; now what?

I'm concerned about Bush ordering the military to hit Iran with nukes. It may not be posiible without an exteneded build-up, but just in case,

Is it a lawful order?

Can the generals refuse?

If they refuse, what happens next?

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. If he doesn't have a Declaration of War from Congress, it's illegal

and the Military SHOULD refuse. If they refuse? I have NO CLUE what he would do. He'd probably fire them and put in Generals who support him.

[Soloflecks]

3. Where do we keep that goddamned suitcase?!

Could he? Does someone have to give him the codes or could he just push the button himself? How does that thang work?

[Rick Myers]

14. It'a a very complicated process

I don't think Dubya could follow it.

[ColdWarVet]

19. Not as hard as you make it out to be.

I was an NRAS certified soldier in Germany during the early 80's.

From the time a message came down to do the deed (in this case, I was in a field artillery unit, and we were equipped to fire n-tipped shells) to the time it went down was mere minutes.

The procedure is the same from the bottom to the top. All that happens is a message comes down (or in W's case, initiated), authentication is initiated and certified, and the deed is done.

While I am not 100% sure of the football's contents, my guesstimate is the current authentication codes and secure communication to the next echelon down the line. No real "button".

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[newyawker99]

23. Hi ColdWarVet!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[peacebird]

8. Kindasleezy said yesterday that the previous congressional declaration

gives him all the power he needs to prosecute the war on terra, she says he doesn't have to ask congress for persmission, (or - I would guess - even bother informing them in advance.)

[in_cog_ni_to]

13. Well, Condiliar is, uh, uh, uh.....A LIAR!

He DOES NOT HAVE THE POWER TO ATTACK IRAN.

[hedgehog]

21. His power to attack anywhere is limited only by what the Pentagon

is willing to obey.

[spag68]

2. It seems that some Generals

have said that they will resign if that option is left in the plan.

[MnFats]

12. but if they do, Bush will replace them with sycophants...

.only too eager to further their own careers....(can't take credit for that idea; somebody else posted same a while ago)
this is deeply troubling, no?

[HereSince1628]

4. I don't believe a coup is possible.

The senior military (colonels and above) have entire careers of steering clear of politics. Despite some of them being partisan supporters of Bush, the majority aren't going to allow a military move against the president.

[hedgehog]

7. How do they stop an illegal war without getting involved?

Normally I'd expect senior members of Congress to step in , but this group of clowns doesn't have the sense to come in out of the rain. I think I'm hearing senior staff officers sending up warning flares that something needs to be done and needs to be done fast. If I'M hearing this, the situation must really be bad.

[HereSince1628]

18. ? I don't understand. How do you do something without doing something?

I don't know how that happens either.

I expect that the military will simply shut it down as it moves toward to JCS. They wouldn't be doing that out in the spotlight but during the analysis of planning inside the Pentagon.

[4freethinking]

20. He probably

said something in front of the JCS that they didn't like. It left them thinking that Bush needs to go to Bethesda Naval Hospital and take a drug test. They would tell the hospital personnel to make sure they screen for cocaine.

[PublicWrath]

22. This is my take on it, too.......n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

5. We had no declaration of war with...

Vietnam or Iraq, and the military went right along and followed orders. Why should war with Iran be any different?

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. because we're talking NUCLEAR WEAPONS THIS TIME.

It's just a tad different, no?

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. A declaration of war won't make it any more moral or acceptable

to use nuclear weapons of hugely massive destruction. Anyone who cooperates with the use of nuclear weapons -- Congress, Administration, military personnel, civilians either involved or merely approves -- is a war criminal and should be punished appropriately.

What I meant to say is that a declaration of war is meaningless, and has been for decades, no matter what kind of weapons are used.

[cynatnite]

6. The officer's oath of allegiance...

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. "I will support and defend THE CONSTITUTION of the United Staes against

ALL enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC."

BUSH IS THE DOMESTIC ENEMY.

[Tom Rinaldo]

16. Yes but the point has always been...

We don't want the military, the people with all the tanks planes and big guns, to be the ones deciding who is and who isn't the domestic enemy, period. Talk about slippery slopes! The Right is certain that the Clintons are the Domestic enemy, remember? Not to mention a Feingold Kucinich or Boxer. It would have to be something really really big, like a President canceling National Elections, for the military to clearly depose civilian leadership to uphold the Constitution.

This is a fight civilians have to wage.

[Warpy]

11. Not without either an Iranian attack against the US on US soil

or an act of Congress.

The military is duty bound to refuse the order of a madman.

[Charlie Brown]

17. the officers who refuse will be put on trial by the Pentagon

for disobeying orders, and they will be convicted. As Commander in Chief, the President has the final say on the military. Soldiers take an oath to follow orders, regardless of whether they're right or wrong.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm

Only a coup, a revolution, or a pardon would save the principled military commanders from going to prison (or execution).