They are killing the best and brightest....

[catnhatnh]

...think about your neighborhood and the teens who live there...are they good kids, or bad?? OK-too simple-I was a "bad" kid and enlisted during Viet Nam....But with no draft,who is enlisting now??? Probably not the kid down the block with the dicey friends and a tendency to pass your house with the radio booming at 3 am...nor those hangin' at the mall in purple hair...these are not facts but they are tendencies...by and large,enlistees are serious people-those who realize enlistment is a ticket to a hostile fire zone and a non-fun time...some are patriots seeking to demonstrate patriotism and some are realists looking to advance themselves but none of them are lightweights looking to cruise...and if for no other reason,then this may be a reason for a draft-because those willing to go are those we can least afford to lose....

[maxsolomon]

1. realistically, not the best & brightest

"best" if your definition of that term mean buying into bushbot jingoist nationalism, which would of course preclude the "brightest".

god bless amurka & all that, but the idea that the military is where our "best & brightest" go after high school is just absurd. try the Peace Corp for our "best".

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Not so. Despite the propaganda otherwise, it's real damn

difficult to get a start if you don't have resources. Not every kid that is bright is going to get a scholarship to State. Kids that enlist with the thought of the bonuses they can stash away and the education paid by the government are taking a calculated risk == without buying into the jingoism, it IS an opportunity if they are below middle-class and cannot afford college, and are averse to racking up $30,000 of debt with no guarantee of clearing it for 20 years. I would guess that the majority, including the kids I know who have joined up or who plan to, are doing it for just these reasons.

Why do you think the recruiters are hitting high schools and malls, not colleges. They go to where the kids are looking at limited opportunities and dead ends. And of course, the Bushco economy does everything it can to create just such a limited opportunity.

You do our servicemen and women a grave disservice by implying they are morons or koolaid drinkers or both.

[maxsolomon]

19. if you sign up today to get college paid for then you have blinders on

i pray there's no one signing up today that doesn't know they will probably have to go kill arabs or get blown up in a futile effort to protect our lifesty... i mean our oil supply. at the least, i hope they're bright enough to know there's a war on. if they don't, they're not the 'best & brightest'. this term is a cliche we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night, like "america is the greatest country on earth", or "america is a peace-loving nation". militarism & nationalism offend me.

i too have known kids who signed up to get college paid for, and deeply deeply regretted it. giving up your individual will & placing it under the command of the american state is not always a great experience or a fair tradeoff for $30k of debt.

anyway, i SAID the Peace Corp was where our 'best' go.

[pocket]

16. more like 'most easily led' and 'biggest bullies'

the brightest are protesting the war

[MadMaddie]

2. This is a great analysis...

we see it....but we have seen the * cabal performs no analysis for anything.....we are losing the brightest of a couple of generations.....

High schoolers 18-19 years of age can't afford to go to college, patriot, advancement
College Age- 20-25 can't afford to go to college go in the military, patriot, advancement
Post College 25-30 can't find a job go into military or reservist called to active duty
30-40 May have been out of the military but can't find a job goes back into the military or a reservist
40-48 getting activated after retiring....can't find a job trying to reenlist....

[Warpy]

3. Rubbish!!!

A draft will give Stupid and his merry imperialists just what they lack in starting the next world war by invading Iran, Syria, North Korea, Venezuela, Bolivia, and anywhere else they don't like the government---more BODIES to train to be "boots on the ground." The main thing clipping their imperialist wings right now is a LACK OF MANPOWER.

Be grateful for the lack of a draft, very grateful, because it's the only thing stopping this gang of thieves and warmongers.

As I recall, the draft took the best and the brightest, too, along with the mediocre. Bullets and bombs don't respect value to society, they kill everyone equally.

So please stop calling for a draft. Unless you lived through it, you really don't know what you're talking about.

[catnhatnh]

8. Yep, I did...

My number was in the cusp-so I enlisted....A draft is NOT an imposition-it is a cancellation of a free ticket to ride...it means that people who normally (now) ignore the truth cannot.YES-I want a draft-I'm betting this time the rich cannot hide their kids fast enough-remember that now the guard will NOT hide you-and an air national slot is now a dream...Yeah-start drafting and make it real-global war on terrorism-prove it-when every citizen in this country has to weigh Iraq against a son/daughter niece/nephew or grandson/granddaughter-then we will find out who supports this regime..

[Warpy]

10. Rich kids will NEVER fight a rich man's war.

That is the one thing you can be absolutely certain of. Their families will hide them in Switzerland before they'll allow them to fight a war. So quit dreaming that dream, it aint gonna happen, ever.

I notice you didn't address the main point, that the lack of a draft is cutting Stupid's supply of cannon fodder to the point his imperial ambition is curbed.

[Avon]

13. So, can Dem action starve the GOP's beast?

Warpy's theory is that if there isn't manpower, there won't be manpower wasted in wars.

That "starve the beast" tactic may well be effective. It might even be deliciously ironic - if the Administration is starving America for money (cut government programs spending and divert the money to tax cuts for you-know-who), then let's starve the Administration for cannon-fodder (deprive it of the military force to invade who-knows-where).

But at what cost? Starving the beast could turn out to be almost suidical. It certainly has been killing our economic lifeblood. And the military-manpower shortage already cost us dearly in Katrina relief, since many National Guard forces & resources were far, far away.

We'd better make sure that we have an effective tactic that isn't merely a powerful tantrum.

[newyawker99]

21. Hi Avon!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[catnhatnh]

14. Perhaps you missed the paradigm shift...

America ain't what it was in '68...and neither is this war..I was there and remember it-who hid and how.....but post Clinton and after the outsourcing many less people are capable of hiding their precious progeny...Stupid intends to do what he intends to do...the sooner a large percentage of the population is liable to suffer for that the better...

[Bluzmann57]

4. A lot of young people enlist to earn money for college

That is a simple fact. We do not need a draft. Just because a kid "hangs out at the mall in purple hair", or has "dicey friends and have a tendency to pass your house with the radio booming at 3 am" does not make them "bad kids". I know of a kid who enlisted because he had a bad home life, his parents were dope addicts and one was an alcoholic, he was considered a "bad kid", but he is going to be an auto mechanic if and when he comes back. Whether one likes the military or not, we need a strong defense and the majority of enlistees are middle class to poor young people who are seeking education, or money for the same.

[The Backlash Cometh]

5. You must be very young.

Drafting people who don't want to be there usually ends up with someone being fragged. That was the lesson of Vietnam. Now, you make this a Muslim vs. Christian war, instead of a Vietnamese versus American War and things will get very, very messy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Wrong lesson, I think.

Those who got fragged were idiots who were careless with the lives of those they led. I never heard of a good officer or NCO getting it from his own men. Draftees have made for excellent soldiers throughout our history -- the 'greatest generation' soldiers were almost entirely draftees.

And it didn't happen often, either. Certainly not often enough to be a factor in any decision to draft or not draft. More important is the legitimacy of the fight, and this fight and the coming fight in Iran are less legitimate than Vietnam ever was, because today even the nation's leaders know they are lying, and the people know they know, so a draft will not take UNLESS there is a better, bigger 9/11 to kick it off.

[catnhatnh]

20. Apropos my brother,who spent his 21st birthday...

...in a war zone...blessed be...B co 506 Btn 101 Airborne...an officer named "Ranger" killed in a chopper crash near FB Rakkusan ? (sic)....the one my brother goes to the wall to see...when the smoke clears,good guys will be fine....if something goes off in your tent you probably dicked it.....

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. I don't think you can always make that kind of generalization.

Especially since we can never investigate every incident to confirm it, and especially since our soldiers were using drugs quite freely in that war and may not have always been using the right judgement.

Maybe in Vietnam we just learned of something that had always been there during times of war. But just like friendly fire, the military propaganda covered it up until it became impossible to cover-up for good.

Anyways, fragging has already happened in Iraq. Remember that officer's tent that was hit by an American muslim soldier? A war with the Middle East will be most difficult to fight with drafted men precisely because it's been sold as a religious war in this country. Maybe not overtly, but certainly covertly.

[catnhatnh]

23. I did not make a genralization...I proposed a cause

From what I know,a real leader and fighter (what the boys called a "stud") was killed and was mourned by guys who followed him in bad shit...I guessed that a dick would not make out well trying to lead the real deal...the down side of teaching rational people to kill while they try to weigh moral perrogatives..the fragging you refer to is perhaps more about more of the same wrapped in "why the hell did we trust a raghead?" which hurts much less than examining who was killed and why....

[catnhatnh]

17. and fragging is a GOOD thing...

...just the troops way of saying "guess again"...So I guess the real lesson of the Viet Nam war may have been that you cannot force people otherwise unconvinced to fight as you wish...and since there is no way in hell to "win" in Iraq,the wheels coming off the wagon hurts how???We WILL lose-the only question is how many we lose till we admit this...

[existentialist]

6. There are other groups that will enlist,

Including, and notably so, Native Americans, because

(1) military service is an honored part of most Native American tribal cultures,

(2) many are out of contact with the outside world to the extent that they do not realize how badly their ethic( and servicemen) are being abused by the current administration, and

(3) many lack other realistic chances for advancement in the world, and are therefore willing to accept the risks of military service, even in war time--even in war time with a military given its marching orders by incompetent and corrupt civilians.

[NNN0LHI]

7. The average age of a male Iraqi when we invaded was 15 years old n/t

[EFerrari]

11. That's why we needed Shock and Awe.

:nuke:

[Ksec]

12. My son is 16

Theres no way I would tell him what to do with his life, but Hes becoming as rabid a Democrat as I am so I doubt he would ever fight for this country on the path its on. I doubt he would want to give his life so a few ultra rich folks could profit from selling tanks and bombs. There is no good reason for this war so why would anyone in their right mind want to fight for it? I certainly wouldnt nor would I expect anyone else to do it For me. Do it for yourselves.

If you insist on fighting just know youre not doing it for me. Youre not doing it for America. Youre doing it because you dont mind dying for a corrupt regime that has zero to do with whats good for this country.

[Avon]

18. If there's a draft, it won't be optional.

catnhatnh has a point in his Reply to the commenters to his own starting point ("paradigm shift" reply above):

Youth won't have the option to choose whether "he would want to give his life".

The plight of 16-year-olds these days breaks my heart. No Canada option, almost no student deferments exceeding one semester, most exemptions abolished, and almost no time to think (let alone file a CO claim) before induction under the draft law that's on the shelf, ready to be activated on short notice.

Draft counseling right now is necessary for any kid who even thinks they might want to exercise a choice in case of widespread mobilization with a draft. Almost impossible for the teen mentality to prepare a full-fledged adult-style plan when the whole thing is theoretical - but very necessary.

Another cruel fact of the present state of the US government.