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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:12 PM
Original message
Oliver Stone's "JFK" on the History Channel right now
The opening made me sick to my stomach, is the rest of the movie....this disturbing? I've never seen it.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's very good, though not everyone agrees with Stone's conclusions.
Some historians think he went off the deep end. But just watch; draw your own conclusions. It's a fascinating movie, very well done whether you think it's fact or fiction.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. to me, Stone went a long way in explaining things
especially the insanity of the "single bullet" premise.
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes, I'm watching
and very impressed it's on the History Channel.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Does anyone believe the Warren Commission's report? n/t
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
8.  Sen.Arlen Spector does since he backed up the magic bullet and suppressed
witnesses. Watch when he is slammed in the movie.

Amazing info if you dig deep enough into the guy.
http://www.geocities.com/justicewell/specter.htm
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Don't be fooled about Jim Garrison. He was a rotten guy.
My biggest issue with Stone's film is his golorification of Garrison. Regardless of whether there was a conspiracy, Clay Shaw had nothing to do with it.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Many people were involved, and most of them didn't even know it.
Shaw was definitely among them. He was CIA, as I recall.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. He was not "CIA"
Shaw was a part-time consultant for the Domestic Contact Division of the Agency, just like 150,000 other businessmen of the time. The main reason he was singled out by Garrison was because of his well-known bisexuality.

The star witness produced by Garrison was a nut who constantly finger-printed his kids (he was convinced the gov't would replace them with clones). Stone attempts to make up for this lack of credibility by introducing the Donald Sutherland character (Mister X), who never even existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Shaw



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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yeah, right. That's why they kept it a secret until after he died.
How are they able to brainwash people like you into defending this guy?

You're doing the dirty work, you know.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. No, I'm defending an innocent man
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Innocent of what? Certainly not innocent of perjuring himself about
his CIA connection.

I wonder why he lied? It's just a mystery.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. before you 'educate' yourselves with the above sites, or after,
see what somebody else has to say

see who has what axe to grind

http://jfkawards.50megs.com/letter.htm

then ask yourselves why CIA chief Richard Helms perjured himself over Clay Shaw's relationship, then admitted it years later
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. Your sources are all McAdams and Posner? Please.
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. That's bullshit. "Mr. X" is Lt Col. Fletcher Prouty.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Ah, you beat me to it.
There is no question he existed. Saying he didn't is about as accurate as saying Kennedy never existed.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
51. Bullshit.
Mr. X definitely existed. That isn't even a serious issue. It's hard to believe that anyone could seriously say he "never even existed."
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Umm, Sutherlands' character "Mister X" is based on
A real live person Col. Fletcher Prouty.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Garrison was said to be in Carlos Marcello's pocket.
And diverted attention away from Marcello and Traficante with the Shaw trial.
There was a mob angle in the death of JFK.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. They tried to tie him into a scandal which didn't exist.
It was all done by the FBI. Garrison destroyed them in court.
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Richard Helms admitted before he died that Clay Shaw was a CIA operative.
So -- at the very least -- old Clay Shaw perjured the hell out of himself.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. Um, wrong and wrong.
They tried pinning all sorts of crap on Garrison and none of it stuck. Richard Helms (Head of the CIA) said that Clay Shaw was an operative.

Any more questions?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. but, but , but . . . Peter Jennings just told us
that the magic bullet really was magic and that there was nothing to see here move along.

:shrug:
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. $50 million in the bank jennings....
still, the poor guy must've felt awful, dying as a result of the nazipoohs whom he served so well
($50 million=lotsa bj's for the gopigs, sure wore jennings out...klol)
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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. The movie has two facts in it.
JFK was shot and Clay Shaw was put on trial.

Otherwise, the movie is pure fiction.
Garrison did not give the final arguments speech Kevin Costner gives.
Including lunch, the jury took an hour and a half to pronounce Shaw "Not guilty."

Try this book: "Case Closed."

Even the Discovery Channel's "Mythbusters" took on the ballistics and such.
No, none of this *PROVES* Oswald was the only shooter.

However, 99.9999% of the "conspiracy to kill JFK" people are either off their rocker or in it only for the $$$ they can get from the suckers.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. "Case Closed" was the Posner book.
Posner is a neocon lapdog who will go at any length to take heat away from the RW.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Mythbusters?
how can you believe anyone who wears that tacky beret???
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Warchild Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. no shit
that dude gives me the creeps......why doesn't he ever get photographed with out it? What's he hiding under there? Something ain't right about that guy.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Another Kool-Aid drinker
At 10:55pm, February 28, 1969. Garrison delivered his closing argument. He handed out copies of the text to the press. From New Orleans District Attorney Records, this is the actual address Garrison delivered in court in the trial of Clay Shaw for conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy...

May it please the court. Gentlemen of the jury. I know you're very tired. You've been very patient. This final day has been a long one, so I'll speak only a few minutes. In his argument, Mr. Dymond posed one final issue which raises the question of what we do when the need for justice is confronted by power. So, let me talk to you about the question of whether or not there was government fraud in this case--a question Mr. Dymond seems to want us to answer. A government is a great deal like a human being. It's not necessarily all good, and it's not necessarily all bad. We live in a good country. I love it and you do too. Nevertheless, the fact remains that we have a government which is not perfect.

There have been indications since November the 22nd of 1963--and that was not the last indication--that there is excessive power in some parts of our government. It is plain that the people have not received all of the truth about some of the things which have happened, about some of the assassinations which have occurred--and more particularly about the assassination of John Kennedy.

Going back to when we were children, I think most of us--probably all of us here in the courtroom--once thought that justice came into being of its own accord, that virtue was its own reward, that good would triumph over evil--in short, that justice occurred automatically. Later, when we found that this wasn't quite so, most of us still felt hopefully that at least justice occurred frequently of its own accord.

Today, I think that almost all of us would have to agree that there is really no machinery--not on this Earth at least--which causes justice to occur automatically. Men have to make it occur. Individual human beings have to make it occur. Otherwise, it doesn't come into existence. This is not always easy. As a matter of fact, it's always hard, because justice presents a threat to power. In order to make justice come into being, you often have to fight power.

Mr. Dymond raised the question: Why don't we say it's all a fraud and charge the government with fraud, if this is the case? Let me be explicit, then, and make myself very clear on this point.

The government's handling of the investigation of John Kennedy's murder was a fraud. It was the greatest fraud in the history of our country. It probably was the greatest fraud ever perpetrated in the history of humankind. That doesn't mean that we have to accept the continued existence of the kind of government which allows this to happen. We can do something about it. We're forced either to leave this country or to accept the authoritarianism that has developed--the authoritarianism which tells us that in the year 2029 we can see the evidence about what happened to John Kennedy.

Government does not consist only of secret police and domestic espionage operations and generals and admirals--government consists of people. It also consists of juries. And cases of murder--whether of the poorest individual or the most distinguished citizen in the land--should be looked at openly in a court of law, where juries can pass on them and not be hidden, not be buried like the body of the victim beneath concrete for countless years.

You men in these recent weeks have heard witnesses that no one else in the world has heard. You've seen the Zapruder film. You've seen what happened to your President. I suggest to you that you know right now that, in that area at least, a fraud has been perpetrated.

That does not mean that our government is entirely bad; and I want to emphasize that. It does mean, however, that in recent years, through the development of excessive power because of the Cold War, forces have developed in our government over which there is no control and these forces have an authoritarian approach to justice--meaning, they will let you know what justice is.

Well, my reply to them is that we already know what justice is. It is the decision of the people passing on the evidence. It is the jury system. In this issue which is posed by the government's conduct in concealing the evidence in this case--in the issue of humanity as opposed to power--I have chosen humanity, and I will do it again without any hesitation. I hope every one of you will do the same. I do this because I love my country and because I want to communicate to the government that we will not accept unexplained assassinations with the casual information that if we live seventy-five years longer, we might be given more evidence.

In this particular case, massive power was brought to bear to prevent justice from ever coming into this courtroom. The power to make authoritive pronouncements, the power to manipulate the news media by the release of false information, the power to interfere with an honest inquiry and the power to provide an endless variety of experts to testify in behalf of power, repeatedly was demonstrated in this case.

The American people have yet to see the Zapruder film. Why? The American people have yet to see and hear from the real witnesses to the assassination. Why? Because, today in America too much emphasis is given to secrecy, with regard to the assassination of our President, and not enough emphasis is given to the question of justice and to the question of humanity.

These dignified deceptions will not suffice. We have had enough of power without truth. We don't have to accept power without truth or else leave the country. I don't accept either of these two alternatives. I don't intend to leave the country and I don't intend to accept power without truth.

I intend to fight for the truth. I suggest that not only is this not un-American, but it is the most American thing we can do--because if the truth does not endure, then our country will not endure.

In our country the worst of all crimes occurs when the government murders truth. If it can murder truth, it can murder freedom. If it can murder freedom, it can murder your own sons--if they should dare to fight for freedom-- and then it can announce that they were killed in an industrial accident, or shot by the "enemy" or God knows what.

In this case, finally, it has been possible to bring the truth about the assassination into a court of law--not before a commission composed of important and powerful and politically astute men, but before a jury of citizens.

Now, I suggest to you that yours is a hard duty, because in a sense what you're passing on is equivalent to a murder case. The difficult thing about passing on a murder case is that the victim is out of your sight and buried a long distance away, and all you can see is the defendant. It's very difficult to identify with someone you can't see, and sometimes it's hard not to identify to some extent with the defendant and his problems.

In that regard, every prosecutor who is at all humane is conscious of feeling sorry for the defendant in every case he prosecutes. But he is not free to forget the victim who lies buried out of sight. I suggest to you that, if you do your duty, you also are not free to forget the victim who is buried out of sight.

You know, Tennyson once said that, "authority forgets a dying king." This was never more true than in the murder of John Kennedy. The strange and deceptive conduct of the government after his murder began while his body was warm, and has continued for five years. You have seen in this courtroom indications of the interest of part of the government power structure in keeping the truth down, in keeping the grave closed.

We presented a number of eyewitnesses as well as an expert witness as well as the Zapruder film, to show that the fatal wound of the President came from the front. A plane landed from Washington and out stepped Dr. Finck for the defense, to counter the clear and apparent evidence of a shot from the front. I don't have to go into Dr. Finck's testimony in detail for you to show that it simply did not correspond with the facts. He admitted that he did not complete the autopsy because a general told him not to complete the autopsy.

In this conflict between power and justice--to put it that way--just where do you think Dr. Finck stands? A general, who was not a pathologist, told him not to complete the autopsy, so he didn't complete it. This is not the way I want my country to be. When our President is killed he deserves the kind of autopsy that the ordinary citizen gets every day in the State of Louisiana. And the people deserve the facts about it. We can't have government power suddenly interjecting itself and preventing the truth form coming to the people.

Yet in this case, before the sun rose the next morning, power had moved into the situation and the truth was being concealed. And now, five years later in this courtroom the power of the government in concealing the truth is continuing in the same way.

We presented eyewitnesses who told you of the shots coming from the grassy knoll. A plane landed from Washington, and out came ballistics expert Frazier for the defense. Mr. Frazier's explanation of the sound of the shots coming from the front, which was heard by eyewitness after eyewitness, was that Lee Oswald created a sonic boom in his firing. Not only did Oswald break all of the world's records for marksmanship, but he broke the sound barrier as well.

I suggest to you, that if any of you have shot on a firing range--and most of you probably have in the service--you were shooting rifles in which the bullet traveled faster than the speed of sound. I ask you to recall if you ever heard a sonic boom. If you remember when you were on the firing line, and they would say, "Ready on the left; ready on the right; ready on the firing line; commence firing," you heard the shots coming from the firing line--to the left of you and to the right of you. If you had heard, as a result of Frazier's fictional sonic boom, firing coming at you from the pits, you would have had a reaction which you would still remember.

Mr. Frazier's sonic boom simply doesn't exist. It's part of the fraud-- a part of the continuing government fraud.

The best way to make this country the kind of country it's supposed to be is to communicate to the government that no matter how powerful it may be, we do not accept these frauds. We do not accept these false announcements. We do not accept the concealment of evidence with regard to the murder of President Kennedy. Who is the most believable: a Richard Randolph Carr, seated here in a wheelchair and telling you what he saw and what he heard and how he was told to shut his mouth--or Mr. Frazier with his sonic booms? Do we really have to reject Mr. Newman and Mrs. Newman and Mr. Carr and Roger Craig and the testimony of all those honest witnesses--reject all this and accept the fraudulent Warren Commission, or else leave the country?

I suggest to you that there are other alternatives. One of them has been put in practice in the last month in the State of Louisiana--and that is to bring out the truth in a proceeding where attorneys can cross-examine, where the defendant can be confronted by testimony against him, where the rules of evidence are applied and where a jury of citizens can pass on it--and where there is no government secrecy. Above all, where you do not have evidence concealed for seventy-five years in the name of "national security."

All we have in this case are the facts--facts which show that the defendant participated in the conspiracy to kill the President and that the President was subsequently killed in an ambush.

The reply of the defense has been the same as the early reply of the government in the Warren Commission. It has been authority, authority, authority. The President's seal outside of each volume of the Warren Commission Report--made necessary because there is nothing inside these volumes, only men of high position and prestige sitting on a Board, and announcing the results to you, but not telling you what the evidence is, because the evidence has to be hidden for seventy-five years.

You heard in this courtroom in recent weeks, eyewitness after eyewitness after eyewitness and, above all, you saw one eyewitness which was indifferent to power--the Zapruder film. The lens of the camera is totally indifferent to power and it tells what happened as it saw it happen--and that is one of the reasons 200 million Americans have not seen the Zapruder film. They should have seen it many times. They should know exactly what happened. They all should know what you know now. Why hasn't all of this come into being if there hasn't been government fraud? Of course there has been fraud by the government.

But I'm telling you now that I think we can do something about it. I think that there are still enough Americans left in this country to make it continue to be America. I think that we can still fight authoritarianism--the government's insistence on secrecy, government force used in counterattacks against an honest inquiry--and when we do that, we're not being un-American, we're being American. It isn't easy. You're sticking your neck out in a rather permanent way, but it has to be done because truth does not come into being automatically. Individual men, like the members of my staff here, have to work and fight to make it happen--and individual men like you have to make justice come into being because otherwise is doesn't happen.

What I'm trying to tell you is that there are forces in America today, unfortunately, which are not in favor of the truth coming out about John Kennedy's assassination. As long as our government continues to be like this, as long as such forces can get away with such actions, then this is no longer the country in which we were born.

The murder of John Kennedy was probably the most terrible moment in the history of our country. Yet, circumstances have placed you in the position where not only have you seen the hidden evidence but you are actually going to have the opportunity to bring justice into the picture for the first time.

Now, you are here sitting in judgment on Clay Shaw. Yet you, as men, represent more than jurors in an ordinary case because of the victim in this case. You represent, in a sense, the hope of humanity against government power. You represent humanity, which yet may triumph over excessive government power-- if you will cause it to be so, in the course of doing your duty in this case.

I suggest that you ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.

What can you do for your country? You can cause justice to happen for the first time in this matter. You can help make our country better by showing that this is still a government of the people. And if you do that, as long as you live, nothing will ever be more important.


http://www.prouty.org/closing.html
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. If that's your only argument regarding the "fiction", that's not much.
Especially since Oliver Stone repeated over and over and over when this movie came out that he had compressed several researchers' work into the Garrison story. If you've been paying attention for the past 42 years, the parts that are absolute fact, newsreel footage, and dramatic recreations that are verbatim with the newsreel footage, are clearly distinguishable from the dramatic license parts of the movie.

Donald Sutherland's "Mr. X" talking to Jim Garrison in the movie was a recreations of Col. Fletcher Prouty talking to Mark Lane. The words and ideas weren't made up.

But Stone said plainly that he wasn't filming a documentary. It's a docu-drama, but there's plenty of truth in there. It's an amalgamation of the findings of all the top researchers who broke ground in obtaining statements from witnesses in the early days of investigation, and especially those researchers who actually read all 26 volumes of the Warren Commission Report and realized that while their official report concluded that "Oswald acted alone", the information in the 26 volumes of exhibits to the report said otherwise. It's very true that the Commission exhibits reveal that Oswald was tested in Russian language skills while he was in the Marine Corps. That's not talked about very much. Never was. And there's a ton of stuff just like that in the Warren exhibits. When you actually READ the testimony of many of the people called to testify to the Commission, or to the FBI, you'll see a pattern of people being cut off in the testimony when it wasn't going according to the pre-determined conclusions. It's obvious.

One of the things I've heard over the years by people trying to discredit researchers is this ... "These people who don't believe the Warren Report have never read the Warren Report." That's patently false. It's the researchers who know the Warren Commission backwards and forwards -- that's where the conspiracy books came from in the first place.

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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. Posner is a tool and his book is a waste of trees...
Oswald couldn't do the shooting, and it is physically impossible for the shots to have been fired from the gun that they "found" in the book depository, the manual recycling of the gun reloading mechanism proves that point.

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Jack from Charlotte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
55. Agree. Anyone who thinks anything from that movie is based on fact is.....
a moron.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. are we allowed to discuss this?
:tinfoilhat:
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Hope so, it's only a movie ?
...sorta like the Sopranos, only real :silly:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. Tony got shot!
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. The logic of the Warren Commission Defenders is very skewed.
There are at least 100 independent facts about the Kennedy Assassination that point to conspiracy. The WC Defenders pick out the same 4 or 5 things to argue year after year, and they have no proof for their arguments.

I've never heard the WC Defenders refute Oswald's connection to Guy Bannister. The best they can do to "disprove" any relationship here is to say that although they had offices in the same building, Oswald and Bannister came in and out by different entrances on different streets -- not mentioning that witnesses have placed Oswald in Bannister's office many times. How likely is it that a building housing several offices of former intelligence operatives and anti-Castro operations would not know that a "Communist" was printing up pro-Castro handbills just upstairs, or down the hall? The connection to Bannister opens up everything in New Orleans to the point that it's intellectually impossible to discount Oswald's connections to the FBI and CIA.

Also, the WC Defenders never mention that Garrison won a perjury conviction against Dean Andrews.

They show those scorecards from the shooting range that Oswald was a "marksman" -- the lowest passing rank -- but never mention sworn testimony to the Warren Commission by Nelson Delgado, who trained with Oswald in the Marines. Delgado was interviewed on film telling his story, that Oswald was all but a laughingstock on the rifle range. He always got so many "Maggie's drawers". Delgado was still serving in the Marine Corps when he gave his testimony and interview.

So much was never seen by the Warren Commission members. J. Edgar Hoover controlled the "investigation" - and, in fact, there really wasn't one. Just an operation to cover tracks. Whose tracks has always been the question.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
18. hey, all you coincidence theory nuts, if you can explain these holes,
Edited on Sat Mar-11-06 09:14 PM by Gabi Hayes
I'll buy your theories

no using Mc Adams or Posner










the Specter boys MUST have that bullet hole coincide with the shot that went through JFK's neck. those don't line up, not enough bullets. no 'bunching shirt/jacket' explanations, either. those are as bogus as Posner's claim that, even though David Ferrie and Oswald were in this photo, that they didn't know each other, and NEVER were in contact.



hahaha


also, what about that bullet track in his back that nobody wants to deal with?

this is too funny
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Warchild Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. That's. . . . .
. . . .WILD!
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. what's wilder is the hoops that people like Posner, McAdams, etal,
put themselves through in order to 'explain' the simple existence of undeniable physical evidence

if this had been Rome, ca. Galileo, anybody positing anything but the Warren Commission dogma would find themselves sharing a bath with him
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. oops....the funniest thing


this bullet entered Kennedy's neck, then Connolly's armpit. Then, it broke a rib, exited, then shattered his wristbone, exiting with enough force to penetrate his thigh.

anybody who knows anything about ballistics can chalk this up to one of the myriad coincidences that are necessary for Oswald to have been the lone shooter. how many bullets would one have to fire at how many bone-dense targets to have a bullet come out this undamaged?

maybe as many monkeys it would take to type up one of *'s SOTU speeches?

what a joke
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Don't forget all the fragments it left along the way.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. don't get me started....I don't know much, but I do know what makes sense.
and this is the best PR job EVER, including the mythmaking surrounding Reagan (see On Bended Knee), and the current brain damaged Oval Office squatter

wonder where Minstrel boy, octafish, etal are tonight

perhaps they have lives?
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. I get the feeling that the DUers who are attacking Garrison are not
even aware of the fact that he was swift-boated. I don't understand how that happens. How can they only read the nonsense?
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. The fragments left behind weighed in total more than that bullet...
.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. oh, you....those were fillings from Connolly's teeth!
get with the program

people like McAdams and Posner have explanations for everything, like the picture above with Oswald and Ferrie together
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. You're a communist and you need to shut up! You're hurting America!
Why do you hate America!?

:sarcasm:
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osaMABUSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
29. Also on in High Def
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. The extended DVD has some interesting scenes.
They chopped out a scene where Garrison goes on a TV talk show and is ridiculed by the host. Stone gives the character a fictitious name but it's actually Johnny Carson.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. ask Mort Sahl about Johnny Carson
his career was effectively ended because of his appearance there
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-11-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
44. I have no idea what really happened
but it's sure a good movie.

:popcorn:
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-12-06 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
45. on right now....history channel...repeat of earlier show
Edited on Sun Mar-12-06 12:02 AM by Gabi Hayes
I'd forgotten...it STARTS with Ike's 'beware the Military Industrial Complex' speech!
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
47. It seems silly
to argue for Oliver Stones movie as a true statement of the events. It is a movie more about the frustration of incompetence and inconsistency of the investigation into the assassination than a effort to truly understand what happen. Watching the movie you can never tell exactly how all the parts fit into place. Could Oswald have killed the president as a lone gunman? Sure it's possible. But it seems hard to believe. Was there a second shooter? Who knows. What is known is that most Americans feel that there are facts in the case not told to them. Most Americans feel there was a conspiracy. The movie captures that paranoid feeling perfectly. I think Ebert said that the movie might not capture all the facts of the assassination but it perfectly captures the feeling of Americans towards the assassination. I think it’s probably the best American movie since “ragging Bull”. The story is great and the art direction is really amazing.
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
48. Largely based on Jim Marrs' book, Crossfire
Top notch flick, too. My dvd copy has a supplemental disc with a good doc on it.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. i have never read this book, but will look into it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. It's a very good book.
Well worth reading.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
50. Stone's "directors cut" version of JFK is excellent enteraiment!!!!!!
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ripple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. It's very good
It was on several times over the weekend. I get Dish Network and a documentary channel mysteriously appeared a couple of weeks ago. They aired an excellent documentary about the Kennedys last week.
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