Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Bush cannot escape the simple language of Section 1809 of FISA

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:18 PM
Original message
Bush cannot escape the simple language of Section 1809 of FISA
Listening to the Bush Administration and its defenders try to justify George Bush’s deliberate and ongoing violations of the law, one can’t help but notice that the Constitution and Congressional statutes sure do seem quite "flexible" in the hands of those seeking to defend him -- a particular irony given how stridently Bush followers rail against such legal theories in other contexts. The defenses being dredged up to justify Bush’s law-breaking certainly are notable for the liberties they take with "conservative" principles of legal argument, as well as with how sharply they contradict the legal views which the Administration itself previously claimed it believed in.

The central problem for the Administration is that George Bush deliberately engaged in conduct which FISA clearly and expressly makes it a crime to engage in. All of the legalistic smoke screens aside, the issue really is that clear. That’s because the Administration cannot escape the plain and easy-to-understand language of Section 1809 of FISA:


"A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally— (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute."

The Administration itself admits, as it must, that it engaged in electronic surveillance in a way that FISA expressly prohibits (by doing so secretly and without judicial approval). Section 1809 says that anyone who does that is guilty of a criminal offense. The law here is clear, and Bush’s violations of the law are equally clear. That presents the Administration with obvious difficulties in defending George Bush.

(snip)

And then we have the second Bush-defending argument: a dressed-up Constitutional theory which claims that George Bush has the "inherent" authority under Article II of the Constitution to violate Congressional law and eavesdrop on American citizens without the judicial oversight required by FISA – even though nothing in Article II mentions or even references the power to eavesdrop, the power to engage in surveillance, or the right to violate Congressional statutes. Indeed, the only express clause in Article II which seems to relate to this controversy is one that would rather strongly undercut the claim that the President has the right to violate Congressional law. That’s the part mandating that the President "shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed . . . "

And there you have it....

What happened to conservative legal theories?
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_01_01_digbysblog_archive.html#113646831083371214
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
powwowdancer Donating Member (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. unless someone sprouts a spine...
or displays a mind-numbing, heretofore unheard of level of testicular fortitude, he almost certainly will. Sad.

:dem:
powwowdancer out
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Patience
These two sections of both FISA and the Constitution are easy to understand and can't be spun.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Fully Concur...Bush Is Escaping This RIght Now...
and the DP is letting him get away with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Don't forget Ashcroft and Gonzales required to fully inform committees.
Federal law says, "On a semiannual basis the Attorney General shall fully inform the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence concerning all electronic surveillance under this subchapter." (50 USC 1808)

It's clear that Ashcroft and Gonzales did not fully inform the two committees and they should be prosecuted.

Federal law says anyone who "knowingly and willfully — (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact; . . . shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both." (18 USC 1001)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Beautiful
Thanks for adding. :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kay1864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. What kind of offense?
Is violation of Section 1809 a felony? A "federal offense"? (whatever that is)

This wasn't covered on Boston Legal, so I'm ignernt... :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If you violate FISA or the Constitution...
it's a federal crime....and definitely a felony.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-05-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nor can he escape the simple language of the 4th Amendment.
Text

The right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution



Even if Article II of the Constitution said (and of course, it doesn't) that the President has the right to search Americans without a warrant, the 4th Amendment supersedes this Article! That's the whole point of ratifying an Amendment; it changes the Constitution so that the new Amendment becomes the law of the land!

* doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 18th 2024, 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC