We Will All Go Down Together

[RoyGBiv]

If this is too disjointed and annoying, I apologize. It didn't come out as good as I had it in my head, but I decided to post it anyway.

--

I am a historian, not by profession, but by temperament. That's what I went to college to do. That's what I constructed my life to be. That's what I am. It's just not what pays me my salary. As a historian I spend no small amount of time attempting to educate people about history and leave them understanding why it is important. This is no small task, and it is often a frustrating exercise. A presentation I gave to a group of freshmen college students several years ago revolved around the long history of ethnic and religious conflict in the Balkans. I specifically focused on the ancient battle of Kosovo Polje and how the legacy of this battle, the victor of which is not and will never be positively known, played a large part in the beginnings of WWI and the more recent horrors instigated by Slobodan Milosevic. The latter in fact had risen to power in part on a platform that invoked the cultural memory of this historical conflict, and he had justified his campaign of genocide on it. A good portion of the reason he was eventually able to come to his position was due to the influence of Britain, France, Germany, and Russia in shaping the destiny of this region in the years following the world's first global bloodbath. The media won't tell you this, mostly because the media knows you don't care, just like the freshman to whom I spoke did not care.

This disturbs me.

A close friend of mine, a very intelligent man with strong credentials in the liberal halls of power, has over the years become the sliver of bamboo in my fingernails over this very issue. Is history important? People don't care about history, he says. He is correct, but that has not stopped me from my crusade to help him to understand why the importance of history doesn't depend on people holding any interest. I could present a lengthy discussion of the rhetorical battles we have fought over this, and I could discuss how I have slowly drawn him to my way of thinking and how he's shifted his political tactics to fall in line with things I have suggested are important. But, I will not do that because I have, just tonight, decided none of what I have argued with my friend is correct.

History does matter, of that I am still adamant. The problem with my argument is that history is important in the same way the legacy of John O'Neil matters. Don't know who that is? Look it up. It's history now, recent history, but all the same history, the kind of information that most people don't care to know.

So I don't ramble on too long, I'll end with a few comments to attempt to tie this to a meaningful point followed by a song. My friend says history doesn't matter because no matter how many lessons history teaches us, we refuse to learn, or if we learn, we are too stupid to incorporate the lesson into our behavior. He is, partly, correct. Most thinking people know Vietnam was a disaster for the United States. Slightly fewer people know that the problem was not our military might but our cause, i.e. we won the battles but lost the war because we were not fighting a war that could be won entirely by the military. Relatively speaking, almost no one knows that Ho Chi Minh was a great admirer of the United States, that he initially based his vision of Vietnam on the same vision as that held by the Founding Fathers of this country, that he took Woodrow Wilson at his word regarding self-determination and went to Versailles and begged for the assistance of the Western world in liberating his fellow people from the yoke of imperialist power. Of the few who know that, fewer still are willing to admit that we, the people of the United States of America, are responsible for every war-related death in Vietnam from the time of the French through the horrors of our own involvement and beyond. History is important to this understanding, but most people don't want that understanding, and so to them, it is not important at all.

And we turn to Iraq, in the days before the now when the British were carving out the Middle East in the wake of WWI for their own ends. They too refused to give audience to many people from these lands who longed to have what the Western world had, self-determination and freedom. And the United States supported them. And now the British and the United States continue to reap the rewards of their legacy because, to us, this history just isn't important.

We have learned nothing. Years from now, assuming we survive, groups of soldiers and groups of citizens of all nations involved will stand together and cry together about what they endured because we were all too stupid to learn.

Goodnight Saigon

We met as soul mates
On parris island
We left as inmates
From an asylum
And we were sharp
As sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho
To lay down our lives
We came in spastic
Like tameless horses
We left in plastic
As numbered corpses
And we learned fast
To travel light
Our arms were heavy
But our bellies were tight
We had no home front
We had no soft soap
They sent us playboy
They gave us bob hope
We dug in deep
And shot on sight
And prayed to jesus christ
With all our might
We had no cameras
To shoot the landscape
We passed the hash pipe
And played our doors tapes
And it was dark
So dark at night
And we held on to each other
Like brother to brother
We promised our mothers we’d write
And we would all go down together
We said we’d all go down together
Yes we would all go down together
Remember charlie
Remember baker
They left their childhood
On every acre
And who was wrong?
And who was right?
It didn’t matter in the thick of the fight
We held the day
In the palm
Of our hand
They ruled the night
And the night
Seemed to last as long as six weeks
On parris island
We held the coastline
They held the highlands
And they were sharp
As sharp as knives
They heard the hum of our motors
They counted the rotors
And waited for us to arrive
And we would all go down together
We said we’d all go down together
Yes we would all go down together

[madeline_con]

1. "People don't care about history, he says."

Then he is a fool, IMO.

Ignorant people don't care about history.

[RoyGBiv]

7. This is true ...

The ongoing rhetorical battle I have with my friend centers on this.

Ignorant people don't care about history. Unfortunately, ignorant people are responsible lifting to power those who rely on that ignorance for their position. The history of the Bush family is incredibly important to understanding what this idiot in the White House is and what he hopes to achieve, but the vast majority of people don't give a damn.

I'm totally with your assessment of this, but I have lost my ability to argue the point, at least temporarily while I wade through a sewer of despondency. I encounter so many people every day who are otherwise very wide in the ways of how their world works yet fail utterly to realize their entire vision of the so-called war-on-terra has been shaped by people presenting a vision of history at total variance with reality.

[Porcupine]

9. Americans are proud to be ignorant. We glory in it.

Hell the current pretender to the presidency is far too stupid too hold a foreman's job on any construction site. Yet there he is. A significant number of people find it acceptable that he sat there in a classroom for seven minutes reading my pet goat while people died.

What would you do they say. Well hell, I act faster than that when I hear about a septic tank overflowing. When shit backs up into their houses people want the truck there NOW and who the f@@k care that it's Sunday.

Our dipshit pResident sat on his ass for an hour while Americans died. His popularity rose after that. We deserve the shitstorm that will surely fall on us. Maybe not each of us but surely we deserve it as a people.

[madeline_con]

15. That's the same type of logic people use when they say....

nuke all them raghead bastards. "... we deserve it as a people." :wtf:

[CrazyOrangeCat]

2. K&R

[undergroundpanther]

5. kick

[acmejack]

3. BZ

[TomInTib]

4. Hear! Hear!.....

K&R'd

[motocicleta]

6. a beautiful piece

I don't believe any group of people can learn history; individuals yes, but groups no. Such will be our downfall.

I often post about environmental collapse, but the collapse will truly come because of human ignorance. Especially the destruction of the unique environment required for large scale human life is due to ignorance and violation of the precautionary principle (first do no harm), but also the repeated and gross violations of human rights represented by Kosova, Vietnam, and Iraq are entirely dependent on large populations of ignorant humans.

Your friend angers me, and I agree with him. I don't know what to do except look out for my own, and seek occasional solace in places like DU.

[RoyGBiv]

18. Good point ...

I really like the way you say this: Your friend angers me, and I agree with him ... At this moment in time, that's how I feel about it too.

I'm flying out to DC to spend my vacation with him in a couple weeks. He doesn't know it -- well, not consciously -- but I have planned a full, new argument for him. (We are very close friends, but what's weird, in a way, is that our relationship that spans a couple decades is based heavily on arguing with each other.) I guess that solidifies my place as a total geek. I'm going on vacation and planning on having an argument.

Hello? I'm here for an argument!

No, you're not.

Yes, I am!

(ahem)

Anyway, thanks for the observations.

[motocicleta]

22. Not to draw this out, but I am currently reconnecting with a good

argument friend right now. It appears to be a human need at times.

Now if my friend and I could start arguing about history, or politics, and stop arguing about baseball.

[countmyvote4real]

31. You nailed it on “groups vs. individuals.”

Individual/personal history fosters more understanding/tolerance than “group think.” In other words, if you could or had to walk in another person’s shoes, what would you do if left out of a group or national policy?

I think that I am going to be way more discombobulated than the original (and beautiful) post on the importance of history.

I cherish our Constitution and Bill of Rights because they protect the individual from the herd. But I’m troubled by the cliché, “United we stand” these days because the current government and their media cohorts only seek to divide us by “group think” and spin points. There are no more equal time media reports thanks to the second most repulsive modern day POTUS.

Even more ironic, we need some “group think” of our own to revolt, rebel and demand that our voting mechanisms are verifiable. We need true election reform from contributions to the removal of the out dated electoral college. Plus, it’s clear, but not largely reported that the HAVA was misguided at best. The record is much more malicious. It has nothing to do with the individual OR the majority.

[Wilms]

8. I can feel that.

And that Joel composition, too.

Thank you, Roy.

[NMDemDist2]

10. while Americans may not care about history, people all over the world

still carry grudges for battles or betrayals centuries later

while we may not care about history, we are in the minority worldwide, much to our detriment

[RoyGBiv]

16. Exactly ...

I could go off on a tangent on this, but I'll be brief. The United States of America is still a very young country with a very short history, and we have very little frame of reference for understanding what is taking place in the rest of the world. The closest we come is the legacy of the Civil War, and this is where I start really start to hit my point and face the most resistance. You would not have to walk to far in any town in the deep South before you found someone who is pissed about the outcome of the American Civil War. We can call these people ignorant and racist, and most likely they are, especially of the latter, but they are something else too. They are the American example of a people with a long memory that bases current decisions on events of the past. Imagine, just for a moment, if the people of the South had not been so obviously wrong in their cause and had been invaded and conquered. Imagine that and you'll hit the slim edge of the consciousness of people in much of the world that has been conquered by imperialist powers for no good reason.

[Gold Metal Flake]

11. Which John O'Neil?

The rightard attack dog or the former FBI terrorst expert killed on 9/11?

[RoyGBiv]

12. The Man Who Knew

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

13. Nice, Roy. So many (most) Americans don't know that if we had supported

Ho Chi Minh and Vietnamese independence (not Communism), instead of instinctively and tribally siding with the white, European colonial power, the whole sordid affair could have been avoided.

[RoyGBiv]

21. I learned this ...

I learned this in college. I was in my 20's before I had even a single clue. That fact in and of itself pisses me off. I had spent much of my life before that reading about history and having people teach me about history, but not until I was in a college classroom, with a self-proclaimed "anti-establishment-old-hippie-with-tenure" as my professor did I even have a hint that this was the case. What was worse was that I remembered my history teacher in high school teaching us about Vietnam and focusing entirely on Minh's relationship with communists during the 50's and not once mentioning anything about him before that. I left high school with this image of him in the 1960's as a young revolutionary, sort of an Asian hippie on drugs who wanted to destroy the world. My high school teacher had encouraged that image and had never once moved me to learn that we was born in 1890 and had experienced a great deal of suffering before the first thoughts of revolution entered his mind.

I remember distinctly the day my professor, Dr. Barton, lectured on this. It shocked me so much I skipped my next class just so I could speak with the professor privately about what I had just learned. I wanted to know more, and he was more than willing to help me, a fact of which I was very grateful.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

30. I read about Ho's history in Stanley Karnow's excellent book "Vietnam".

It was fascinating to me. And you're right, the important history, ANY history, is just not taught in American schools before you get to college, IF then.

[Hekate]

14. Keep on keeping on, my friend

I'm a mythologist, not an historian; but history was my undergrad major, driven by the same curiosity -- the Story of cultures, of humans.

This has to be a short note, but there are two points of encouragement.

One is that "the media," in the form of PBS at least, did a splendid series on WWI. Was it Frontline? Probably. The program went deeply into the roots of the Great War, and then into its branches, which led to WW II and shadowed the entire 20th century.

The other is this: in the excellent book on high school history textbooks "Lies My Teacher Told Me," the author states categorically that although the majority of teens and adults say they did not like History Class, every year in the US millions of books are sold on historical subjects. A lot of people are reading history books for recreation, it seems.

That's all. Gotta run.

Hekate

[RoyGBiv]

17. Frontline ...

It was. Frontline is one of if not the best programs on modern television. I watch it religiously.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

19. I care about history and I admire your commitment to it. nt.

[Old and In the Way]

20. USA,,,,USA,,,,,USA,,,USA

It's a fine line between rightful pride in accomplishment and arrogant nationalism. Sadly, we are doomed to relearn the same lessons that some of us understood about Viet Nam and tried to avoid with this elective war in Iraq. We only think we know the true cost of this folly to this country. We won't get a third chance, I'm afraid.

[yellowdogmi]

23. I remember the Billy Joel tune you are quoting.

I was a mere babe during vietnam but served through the first gulf war in the navy. Many that were older and wiser than me convinced me to look at the history and the current players and form my own opinions. The friends at home that did not serve now appear like the chickenhawks running this fiasco. With the same willfull ignorance of history that allow the imperialistic aggression we supported in vietnam. I hope that my daughter learns enough to understand these fallacies with out being swayed by the quasi religious/righteousness arguments that bring the koolaide drinking sheeple to *. Some have accused me of being a communist for espousing the view that I want my child to think for herself and to not blindly follow a leader who espouses his faith as a way to garner support. I don't know who said beware of the false prophet but I am sure that it is an apt adage for the age in which we live. I have told you of my hopes for my daughter to explain why I still have hope. Yes it wans and ebbs and flows. But I must keep up that hope or I will become despondent and she will not be able to enjoy the same america that I grew to an age of reason in.

PS. Down together by the refreshments
We can write our names here in the mud no ones around to see them.
We can hang our shoes here in a tree no ones around to steal them.
I could give you a star you could give me one to and that way we'd be even.
I could sing a song way out of tune and not care a bit about it.

We could both wear cowboy hats and pretend that we could speak Italian.
I could eat some gum and make my breath so minty fresh to kiss you.
Your breath would smell like wine I like that a lot especially when I kiss you.
I could hit my funny bone real hard and you could call me sweetheart.

Whoever said there's nothing new out in the sun.
Never thought much about individuals.
But he's dead anyway.

Let's go down together, down together,
Let's go down, together, down together, down together,
let's go down, together, down together,
yea let's go.

We could all wear ripped up clothes and pretend that we were dead hot workshop.
I could drive a long, long way and not even have the gas to make it back.
We could chase our shadows around the lawn until we're both exhausted.
I could forget the words here one more time and hope that no one notices.

Whoever said there's nothing new out in the sun.
Never thought much about me.
Yea, yea
What's good for you is good for me and
What's bad for you is bad for me.
And what's good for you is good for me and
What's bad for you is bad for me.

Well cars break down and people break down and other things break down too
so let's go...

down together, down together
let's go down, together, down together, down together,
let's go down, together, down together,
yea let's go.

We could find a speck of dust and scribble down our life story.

[RoyGBiv]

25. Thank you for that ...

Comments like this are what make me wish we could recommend individual replies in a thread.

My daughter, and her future, are what keep me going and keep me committed. It would be far too easy to give up for my own sake, but I cannot give up for her sake. I'm sure she gets sick of my "lessons" at times, but I know they'll be there in her head as she grows, and that comforts me.

Anyway ... thanks for the contribution and for your service.


:patriot:

[dweller]

24. G.Santayana

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

K.Vonnegut
"History is merely a list of surprises. It can only prepare us to be surprised yet again."

R.W.Emerson
"Make the most of yourself for that is all there is of you."

V. Sackville-West
"I worshipped dead men for their strength,
Forgetting I was strong."

:thumbsup:
dp

[RoyGBiv]

26. V. Sackville-West ...

Oh, I like that last one. I hadn't come across that one before.

Speaking of Vonnegut, I was lucky enough to see him speak in OKC a couple years ago. That man is simply brilliant.

He started his presentation with something like, "Okay, so I'm in Oklahoma, and I'm assuming you're the smart people. Good. I don't want to have to deal with idiots tonight. I'm too old."

And then he made us all feel like idiots, but in a good way, and by that I mean he just displayed his brilliance, talking about the state of American society and politics with an incisive wit that I do not think can ever be duplicated.

[KoKo]

42. Something happened starting in the late 80's. We stopped caring about

ourselves and our communities. We stopped focusing on what it mean to be an American and the responsibities we had to keep our infrastructure and schools strong and healthy. We stopped caring about providing jobs that were sustainable. We became obsessed with stock markets and technology and sort of forgot that all around us things were changing in ways that down the road might be disastrous.

Growing up after WWII I remember so much history. Movies, books, discussion shows on TV that talked about the Holocaust about how we got into WWII and then during Vietnam college students were very energized...

Something happened. We got off track. I won't write more about it but those around here who've lived a few decades would understand.

[bobbieinok]

47. with the election of Reagan/Bush in 1980 it became OK to be selfish

and not just garden-variety selfish, but super selfish....almost immediately the 80s were tagged the 'Me Decade' and everyone wanted to be Yuppies

[kevinbgoode]

27. If history wasn't important, the wingnuts . . .

wouldn't be spending so much time and energy trying to rewrite it.

[TacticalPeek]

28. The past isn't dead.

It isn't even past.

William Faulkner

[RoyGBiv]

29. My FAVORITE Faulkner quote ...

Faulkner is another of my obsessions. Thanks for bringing it up.

[me b zola]

32. K&R.....n/t

[ClayZ]

33. Great thread, Kick!

One thing about the last 6 years is that it has re-minded me to make damn sure my adult children are very aware of what has happened and what is happening.

It is threads like this that help me do just that!

[shadowknows69]

34. Used to play that song on my radio show

every veterans day and make a big deal about it. I was just a small child when Vietnam was going on. It was later through self exploration that I learned more and always strove to understand "My generation's" war. This song was part of what set me upon my search as was Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, The Deer Hunter, etc. The lessons we clearly HAVEN'T learned from Vietnam are so glaringly apparent I can't believe anyone who lived though those times (IE. a lot of bush's demographic, agewise at least)could have allowed the same mistakes to be made. Long story short War Still isn't good for children and other living things. We (mankind) really need a new hobbie.

[Binka]

35. You Have A Brilliant Mind....I Enjoy Reading Your Work So Much

My son Benjamin is in MN this week to bury his best friend Adam VanAlstine killed in Ramadi Feb 25, 2006. He will return to 29 Palms and then drive to Phoenix AZ to bury his next closest friend John Thorton who was killed in the same attack.

This has been a dark time in my heart. Rest in peace V & Thorny. Hang on Ben we'll make it through together.:cry:

[RoyGBiv]

40. OMG ...

I am so sorry. That is just horrifying. I have no words for this. Just :hug:

Peace be with you.

[Binka]

45. Peace To You

Many tears here.

[no_hypocrisy]

36. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Poet and philosopher George Santayana

You remind me of Santayana. History is our guide.

[blindpig]

37. I think some do pay attention to history.

It seems as though our ruling class has from the beginning modelled itself on the Roman Patrician class. The jerrymandering and disproportional representation of the Senate are similar to the practices of the Republic. The symbols and architecture directly ape Rome. Of course much of the reality could not be plainly paraded so it was wrapped in the rainment of the Enlightenment. That rainment controls discourse mostly by declaring the supremacy of the individual while ignoring the disproportional effects of wealth. Quite the racket. Now they have a self declared Imperator and seem OK with that.

I enjoy reading history but there is not much happiness or inspiration there, only cautionary tales. If you get past the warm fuzziness of K-12 it is very hard to find happy endings and those are the kinds of stories that people like. How to impress people with the necessity of those cautionary tales is beyond me.

"History, read it and weep." Bokonnon.

[bigtree]

38. well said

touching poem

[Toots]

39. Written history is influenced largely by those in power

It is very difficult to know really what went on. Was JFK killed by a single gunman? Did George Washington really chop down a Cherry Tree? Have a lot of "records" disappeared from Congressional records and Congressional Library? Did the US government deliberate give smallpox infected blankets to American Indians? Who really knows? What really happened during the Reagan years? Congress passed a LAW saying Presidential Papers must be released after no more than twelve years after leaving Office. Bush* (while thumbing his nose) openly defied that LAW and History will be told differently than what happened. Who really knows if what you know is actual truth or the victors version of it?

[annabanana]

41. ow, ow, ow, ow,..

truth hurts.

[ljm2002]

43. Beautiful...

...just beautiful.

I am no student of history, but I admire those who are.

One reason the U.S. population's ignorance is so painful is that it has such dire consequences. As a superpower we cause much mischief in the world -- mischief that is furthered because the ruling class manipulates and propagandizes an ignorant population to go along with their evil schemes.

Strangely, those who walk the halls of power do have a knowledge of history, it's just that they interpret it differently from you and me. I've often said, the people in power now did read Machiavelli, and took it to heart; they did read Orwell's 1984, but instead of recoiling in horror, they thought, Neat, I could do that!

Anyway -- thanks for your insightful post.

[happydreams]

44. "If there is one thing we learn from history

it is that we learn nothing from history."

I think this is a quote by Engels and he is referring to our collective concious. Certainly individuals, such as yourself, benefit from history's teachings and you have been a force to counter ignorance.

I would not want to be alive without a historical conciousness.

:toast:

[bobbieinok]

46. The Republican Senators' White Paper on Vietnam

I was blown away when I heard about this in the early 70s (it was released in the late 60s, I think).

There for the first time I learned that HoChiMinh appealed to the US and others at the end of WWII for help against the French attempt to regain control of 'French Indo-China.' The French had released Japanese POWs in Saigon to help them retake Vietnam!!!!! When he could not get any help from the US, HoChiMinh turned to the Soviet Union for help.!!!!!!! (Does anyone have a link or a source to this White Paper???? I know it existed; I read parts of it and a friend used it in the 70s as part of the reading list for a college course on the era.)

Also, anti-war people constantly pointed out and (were constantly ignored) that there had been an international agreement to hold elections in Vietnam but that Eisenhower refused to do it b/c it was pretty clear the winners would be hostile to the US.

*****

What many not adult at the time of the Vietnam War may not know---the war was viewed by many as a democratic party war. So republican senators did not have a big 'vested interest' in the war.

I remember in college (graduation May 1961): 'everyone' KNEW a democratic president meant a war, eg, Wilson WWI, FDR WWII, Truman Korean War. I had friends who married guys in ROTC and who were really scared when JFK won: 'there'll be a war!!!!!'
So JFK sending observers and LBJ then making it a war doubtless came as no surprise to them.

When the Soviet Union put up the Berlin Wall in August 1961 and the US military was put on alert, I thought of those friends who were no doubt thinking 'I KNEW a democratic president meant a war.'

[Neil Lisst]

48. People don't care when it's happening, muchless when it's history

THAT is the sad truth.

Right now, even among the fairly well-informed in America, there is a lack of understanding of the extent to which Bush and the Republican party have subverted the election process, the extent to which they've taken domestic monitoring of dissent.

Media sit slack jawed through most of it, willing or semi-willing participants in the sham. If Bush is caught lying, suddenly the issue becomes "are you calling the president a liar?!" If the Pubs are being racist, they'll shout back "you're playing the race card!"

History does matter, to those of us who hold it close, who appoint ourselves to care, to stay informed, and pass it on. The only truth being told today is being told on blogs. It's not in major media, who all run fixed games designed to make sure the house wins.

[Just Me]

49. People DO care. You just have to relate to them "in their world".

That is what I have learned,...from history.

There is not a human being on the face of this earth who doesn't care about a better future. The obstacle is ourselves,...our ability to reach out to and talk to one another on a fundamental basis: on the basis of being SAME as human beings rather than different.

Me. I've learned to solicit communication and listen and question. Asserting my perspective or position rarely produces change, in my experience. I will forever grapple with how to best influence others in a positive direction. I know our existence is about more than knowledge or experience or genes and I know we have the capacity to change and to shape ourselves and the lives of humanity.

RoyGBiv, take comfort in the fact that you are among billions stuck in this mystery called "life". Don't be discouraged or become callous as a result of the humility we all must eventually claim. None of us ever really actualize a product. We are, each and every one of us, pieces of a process that never ends.

:hug:

[adwon]

50. He's not all wrong

History is not inviolate. A single "story" may be the accepted version of past events, but the retelling of those events is affected by many factors, including quantity of available sources, quality of those sources, and biases (both personal and those inherent in the sources). An additional difficulty is that those versions which don't correspond with one's personal opinions tend to be discarded as either negligently or intentionally flawed. Not only that, but the "lessons" of history I find to suspect at best. Too many of them are extremely reductionist and take no account of the various contingent factors that made the past seem inevitable. Of course, that's often the basis of "What if?" stories.

As a side note, your Vietnam example is a great example of the points I make. That debate, however, is a subject for a different thread so as not to divert this one :P