Any Scholars of Islam in the house? Email being sent around that needs to

[Pachamama]

be answered....

I received today from two "Right-wingers" the following email below - I am not a Muslim nor do I know a lot about Islam, but I believe that the contents and insinuation about Islam in this email is false and its precisely mis-information like this (or concocted stories if this is one and isn't debunked as a "true story") only serves to fear-monger about the Islamic faith. I believe that the right-wing christian fundamentalists want a religious war and to make the Islamic faith be seen as evil and wrong. It also demonizes not just Muslims, but also "Liberals" and the boogeyman ACLU...

Can anyone address this email please?

------------------------------------------
This is a must read -- it's short but Very informative! The Muslim religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in the United States, especially in the minority races!

Allah or Jesus?
by Rick Mathes

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please,correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims,they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?" There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!" I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The _expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes." I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!" The Imam was speechless. I continued, "I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the "Diversification" training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs. I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized.

Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts. This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a well-known leader in prison ministry.

[Another Bill C.]

1. See Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

[ourbluenation]

5. email it right back with the snopes info to him and everyone he

emailed it to - copy and paste their email addy's.

According to Tim Kniest, Public Information Officer for the Missouri Department of Corrections, the event described was a training program for prison volunteers, for which ministers from several faiths were invited to give presentations in order to acquaint prison volunteers with the varied religious beliefs of the inmate population. The man who gave the presentation about Islam was not a Muslim minister; he was an inmate pressed into service to present a short film on Islam and answer some questions when the prison's Volunteer Coordinator was "unable to find an Imam to speak."

Moreover, reported Mr. Kniest, the prison's Volunteer Coordinator said that "The inmate did a good job," adding, "He was asked a few questions that were beyond his ability to answer. But he was not asked anything like that question ":
. . . the Volunteer Coordinator at the prison said that no such exchange as the editorial reported ever took place. "He certainly did not 'Hang his head in shame'," according to Kniest. In fact, the inmate was thanked by the assembly before being escorted back to his quarters. Furthermore, the coordinator does not recall any questions dealing with jihad against the infidels of the world as reported in the editorial.

In the editorial the inmate is presented as an Imam, or Islamic minister, which he clearly was not.
Regardless of whatever may have transpired at the prison training session referred to above, the larger point the writer is attempting to make in this piece is a grossly inaccurate one. Islam is not a monolithic religion in which unanimity of belief and action is coordinated from a central authority; it has well over a billion adherents in countries all over the world who belong to any one of a number of different sects with varying beliefs, traditions, and interpretations of scripture. (As well, some religious groups identify themselves as Islamic but are not recognized as such by the vast majority of Muslims.) No one Muslim (especially one who wasn't even a cleric) could speak to what all of Islam believes, any more than a single member of a Methodist congregation could speak for every denomination and follower of Christianity.

[mdmc]

6. thanks for the link and the sig line, Bill C.

:kick:

[cmd]

7. Definitely go to Snopes

It's all laid out there. Forward the link to your friend and be sure to hit the reply all button.

[MADem]

11. Thank Allah for them, I reckon!!!

What complete and utter HORSESHIT!

[Squatch]

2. why do you feel the need to debunk "spam"

[Pachamama]

19. I feel the need to debunk & send the truth back to my relatives - because

I love them....

I come from a Republican family...this email was sent not just once, but twice to me within a matter of weeks by both my Father and my Stepfather. Both are life long Republicans and both are ex-military and both are very disturbed by the lies of this adminstration and of the GOP party as a whole. They still have their quirks and their deeply embedded ideas, including I am afraid at times some sexism, racism, xenophobia and other, but they are also wanting the truth.

When I get info that shows something like that email is false, and not just because snopes.com says so, but also because I can show them some quotes from the Koran that contradicts the hateful statements made in that email, I atleast can plant the important seed in their mind to a) question everything that they "read" or are told; and b) that they perhaps realize that Islam is not the evil religion that some would suggest.

Because I'm breaking the chain.... :hi:

[mwb970]

28. Well, good luck.

But it sounds like your family isn't really interested in the truth. Maybe I'm wrong. Be sure to report back the results of your debunking!

[greyl]

3. That doesn't sound like a real exchange to me.

If it was, the Iman did a poor job.

It isn't true that most Imams and clerics of Islam have called for the killing of non-believers.

[deutsey]

8. I was going to say the very premise is bogus

There are numerous variations on Islam just as there are for Christianity (or Buddhism, or just about belief system).

[mdmc]

4. sounds pretty fake,

unless he was a jail house religious guy , like the priest in OZ.

[frankly_fedup2]

9. I would respond with "This is spam and I am reporting you to the service"

(nt) I don't open emails from someone I haven't heard of.

[Pachamama]

20. It wasn't spam-came from two family members...so I'm going to answer and

I'm not going to be "reporting" them....they are simply doing what even so many of us do, which is forwarding emails on to contacts that they receive.

Because both of them are Republicans who have a lot of Republican friends who forward them things, they get these kind of misinformational right-wing BS all the time. The scary thing is that they believe it 99% of time, so by debunking and replying to them, I hopefully break the chain of disinformation....

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

10. snopes is your friend

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

[Neil Lisst]

12. They all have this phrase in common

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam (or whoever) hung his head in shame.

[bunkerbuster1]

14. because of course an Imam wouldn't have an answer for this.

what horseshit.

[bunkerbuster1]

13. Tell this jerkwad to stop spamming you with RW crap. Jeez.

and put the wad o' jerk in your killfile if he/she/it doesn't comply.

[Pachamama]

21. Well, the "jerkwads" are....

My Dad and my Stepfather, so I'm not going to go to that extreme....

I am instead trying to persuade them to leave the darkside and come towards the light by providing them with counter-balance and the truth....

Believe it or not, I'm making progress! My Dad voted Libertarian the last election and my Stepfather actually has started getting angry about the War on Iraq and why we are even there. And he is a retired Colonel in the Army. Believe me, this is huge progress! :hi:

[bunkerbuster1]

29. hokay, scratch that "jerkwad" comment

I just can't fathom how anyone would get into the whole "rabidly political freakazoid nutjob email forwarding" business, whatever political side you're on. I had a dear friend who was a devoted progressive, but she'd fall for any stupid screed and "pass it on."

After firmly correcting her a few times, she got the message and took me off her screech list.

Glad to hear you're making progress with your family, anyway.

[kineneb]

15. not Jesus vs. Allah

Allah is the word for God. Period. Same guy as Yaweh from OT. Jesus is seen as a prophet, just as was Mohammed. If I have any doubts, I can ask Persian step-father.

...didn't even bother to read rest of letter, since title was so far off.

[Igel]

23. Maybe yours.

Mine's not schizophrenic.

The terms used for referents may be the same, but it's a bit of sophistry to assume that they are, therefore, the same. This was clear to the Byzantines, and they were no world class scholars. We've dumbed down since then.

[kineneb]

30. I don't care

except as an intellectual exercise. I follow the path of the Buddhas, so the arguments are, for me, moot. This is an argument for the followers, not me. I shall watch from the sidelines, while working to make the world a better place.

Peace.

-edited for spelling

[Solon]

34. Wait, if Allah isn't Yahweh...

That means that Allah isn't the Genocidal maniac that Yahweh is, especially in the Old Testament? I mean, for crying out loud, Yahweh condoned rape!

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp."
Dividing the Spoils
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;

38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;

40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men- 43 the community's half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites' half, Moses selected one out of every fifty persons and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle.

48 Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses 49 and said to him, "Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. 50 So we have brought as an offering to the LORD the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD."

51 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. 52 All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the LORD weighed 16,750 shekels. 53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. 54 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the Tent of Meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD.

--Numbers 31 NIV Bible

[Burning Water]

16. People of intense religious

convictions can sometimes be carried away.

When I was a boy back in '58-'60, I lived in the Philippine Islands for 2 years. I lived on Luzon island in the north, near Manila. To the south around Mindanao, the Moros live. These are Islamic people. Currently they seem to be in a state of rebellion against the government.

Anyway, there was a Christian minister in Manila, a Moro who had converted from Islam. From his pulpit he would describe his former life as a Moro pirate and murderer. They believed for each Christian they killed, they received another slave in heaven. How much of that belief is Islamic, and how much is tribal, I don't know.

I do, however, see that, as a group, Muslims seem more willing to demand respect for their beliefs than they are to extend it to other religions. I don't see Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or Hindus conducting suicide bombings, although there is some degree of the regular type among them. And I have to ask, what is it about the religion that makes so many of them prefer death to life in the name of their religion?? Christians may be happy to know they are going to heaven, but you see very few of them wanting to hurry the trip along.

I don't claim to know the answer. I'm just a seeker, like you. But I think the questions are fair.

In this world that we all live in, I think we have a moral obligation to try to understand others, but by the same token, the others are obligated to try to understand us.

[PsychoDad]

17. Total Crap

The Quran commands us (Muslims) to be respectful of everyone and to be just to everyone regardless of religion.

Consider these verses from the Quran.

There is no compulsion in religion. Sura 2:225

We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will. Sura 3:84

Those with Faith, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who have Faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow. Sura 2:62

Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, 'We have Faith in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him. Sura 29:46


After Muhammad's death in 632, the Islamic empire grew rapidly, encompassing what is now the Middle East, Egypt, North Africa, and Iran. Most of the new subjects were Christian or Jewish, and considered People of the Book. The Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians were called dhimmi, protected peoples. They could worship, follow their own family law, and own property. People of the Book were not subject to certain Islamic rules, such as the prohibitions on alcohol and pork. Under the Islamic state, they were exempt from military service, but were required to pay a poll tax known as the jizya, They were, however, exempt from the larger zakat tax required of all Muslims. They could be bureaucrats and advisors in the Islamic state.

In modern Islamic states, many predominantly Muslim countries allow the practice of all religions. Of these, some such as Egypt limit this freedom with bans on proselytising, others such as Mali have no such restrictions. Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Malaysia have a significant population from the Hindu, Christian and Buddhist faiths. They are allowed to actively practice their faith, build places of worship and even have missionary schools and organizations. Some Muslim countries nationally observe Hindu, Christian and Buddhist holidays, e.g. Durga Puja, Maghi Purnima, Buddha Purnima, Ashari Purnima, Moharram, Christmas etc.

Hope this helps to clear this up.
Peace.

[Pachamama]

18. Thank you for these verses and some perspective on Islam...

I have heard on many occasions some very beautiful verses from the Koran...(or is it Quran?)

There is no question that there is extremism in every religious group, regardless of it being Christian, Muslim or Jewish faiths and that hatred of other faiths has no true place in the love of God.

I think the ugly danger of such "emails" that are clearly passed around as being truth, is that they only serve to spread the misinformation and fuel the fear of Islam as a faith.

Just go to Free Republic and see what kind of ugly things were said on that site when they discussed this "email"...very ugly stuff....

Namaste

[Yupster]

22. Psychodad

I go to this website to get answers about Islam.

www.askimam.com

Are you able to tell me what "hoors" are? Apparently they are women, but not human women that will be in heaven to please men. There are a bunch of questions about them but apparently they are women, but not women from Eve women? Any idea?

There were questions from women asking how they were going to be happy in heaven when there will be all these "hoors" pleasing their husbands all the time. Is this where the 72 virgins stuff comes from?

Also the women's section is just filled with dozens of questions about menstruation. Any idea what the big hangup about that is all about?

Sorry to make you an expert on Islam, but you seem to know a lot.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Perhaps you should check some more sites to get a fuller picture.

There is NO Islamic Pope. Nobody can speak with total authority on Islamic beliefs. Would you go to Ian Paisley's website for a full view of Christianity?

Some have guessed that "Ask the Imam" is the Islamic version of Landover Baptist. But that's probably not the case.

[PsychoDad]

32. Ask the Imam

Is a fairly conservative fatwah online site. There are many others some more or less conservative or liberal on their views.

The way this works is thus; I have a question relating to some facet of Sharia, perhaps how to calculate prayer times in northern Sweden during 24 hour daylight, or if it is permissible for a muslim man to have a gold tooth. So, I send an e-mail to one of the scholars on this site and will hope to receive a scholarly opinion (or fatwah).

But what if I don't like or agree with the opinion? I'm not bound to that opinion, I can ask another scholar his/her opinion, and so on until I have a fatwah/opinion I can live with.

While it may be a wonderful service for some, Indeed, you can look up multiple fatwahs on a single issue in minutes, I prefer talking to a real human being....

And if I don't like what he or she has to say, I'll look online :P

Peace.

[PsychoDad]

31. Good question :)

Just what are the "Hoors" ?

The word hoor occurs in the Quran in four different places, as translated into english:

(1) In Sura Dukhan:

"Moreover, We shall join them to companions With beautiful, big and lustrous eyes."

(2) In Surah Al-Tur

"...And We shall join them to companions, with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes."

(3) In Surah Rahman

"Companions restrained (as to their glances), in goodly pavilions."

(4) In Surah Al-Waqiah

"And (there will be) companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes."

Many translators of the Quran have translated the word "hoor" as ‘beautiful maidens’ especially in Urdu translations, but The word hoor is actually the plural of ahwar (male) and of haura (female), thus the word is sexualy neutral and signifies a person having eyes characterized by "hauar" a special quality bestowed upon a good soul and it denotes the intense whiteness of the white part of the spiritual eye.

The Qur’an describes in several other verses that in paradise you will have "azwaj" which can mean a spouse or companion.

"But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before", for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (forever)".

"But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, We shall soon admit to Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath – their eternal home; therein shall they have companions pure and holy: we shall admit them to shades, cool and ever deepening".

As I understand it, the Quran is simply telling us that we, male or female, will not be alone in the hereafter. We will have those we love here and in the hereafter around us and with us in the next life. It may also be telling us that many of our companions and neighbors who we become close to in Paradise will not be human, but perhaps Jinn and perhaps even species from other worlds. (I for one do not think we are "alone", and I believe that in paradise we will be able to study and enjoy the whole of Allah's creation.)

And yes, it is these references, and weak hadeeth, (unfounded supposed sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)) that has helped to create the 72 virgins myth.

Peace.

[PsychoDad]

33. menstruation

Sorry, I didn't get to that in the last post.

In Islam the act of Salat, or the formal prayer, the primary act of worship in Islam, requires one be in a state of symbolic purification. This state is attained by performing a ritual cleansing called wudu. This state of purification can be broken by a number of things including menstruation.

During this time women are also exempt from having to observe the 5 daily prayers or fasting during Ramadan while still receiving the same spiritual rewards as if having done all of them.

Not having read the section on the site you mention, I imagine that the questions pertain to technical details such as how soon after menstruation can one return to prayers, etc.


Peace.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Break the Chain is another resource....

Third-party accounts of the events in question paint a significantly different picture than the one offered by Mathes. Tim Kniest, spokesman for the Missouri Department of Corrections, told the Lee news service that the training session in question was for prison volunteers and took place in a corrections facility in Fulton, MO. However, according to Kniest, prison officials' recollection of events that day differ from Mathes' in several aspects:

* Religious leaders representing faiths followed by current inmates were invited to present.

* The presenter on Islam was not an Imam, but rather a Muslim inmate who was pressed into presenting after no Imam could be arranged.

* Prison officials confirm that the Muslim inmate was asked a few questions that he was unable to answer, but none along the lines of those suggested by Mr. Mathes.

www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/rickmathes.html

Islam Online responds to the letter & includes a quotation from the Gospels.

Didn’t Jesus himself say, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Matt. 10:34–35)?

www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016474&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE

Anyone who has any knowledge of Islam realizes that it does not set Mohammad against Jesus. Jesus was the penultimate Prophet, in a line that began with Adam & ended with Mohammad.

[morgan2]

26. not to mention that

but the God in the old testament instructs people to kill non believers. Says its a believers duty to kill him, something about stoning him etc etc.. Take a look at the middle ages(including the crusades), not to mention all the imperial conquests in the name of christianity after the so called englishtenment. Christianity doesn't exactly have a clean history in its treatment of non-Christians.

[izzybeans]

27. Sounds like a Stormfront fairytale to me. It has all the markings.

Beginning with the "Island in a sea of Jihad" statements about the fastest growing religion ESPECIALLY AMONG ALL THE MINORITIES!!!! While true, in part, its meant to have the MCCarthyite boogey man attached. "Not in my backyard" says she. Build the fear and then deliver the lie.

The snopes link says it all.