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Finally watched Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry

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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:27 AM
Original message
Finally watched Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry
It's probably selfish of me to start a GD thread and the mods can move it if they want, but damnit, I want to vent. I thought I could watch this calmly, with the distance between nov. 04 and now, but time really hasn't healed that wound at all. I want answers. I don't think I'll find them here but here goes:

Why the hell did any sizable portion of Americans buy the Shit Floaters lies?

Why do Americans continue to delude themselves that Vietnam was "winnable?"

Why are we still fighting the war in Vietnam, here at home? (And if you think we aren't, just imagine what'll happen if it's McCain running in '08, even just for a primary fight.)

Why don't more Americans find a man like John Kerry to be sympathetic and appealing?

I can only blame so much on corporate media, a well-oiled right wing noise machine, Diebold and slimy Republicans. What the hell is the matter with us?

How much more of a clear-cut choice between competence, decency and pragmatism versus sloppiness and moral depravity could the Americans expect to have in a Presidential choice?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. I know the smear boat guys had their shit backfire in one case
My right wing father was pissed off enough by it to vote for Kerry.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Glad to hear it offended at least one right-winger.
shame there weren't more.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. And My Right Wing StepFather Took It The Other Way
He found the swift shit to be uncontravertable fact leading to the conclusion that all Democrats not only lie but are trators and should be hanged. I told him to go fuck himself over it and we have not spoken a word since.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. One of the original founders
was indirectly implicated in the "friendly fire" deaths of two Swifties on August 11, 1966 -- and withdrew his name from O'Neill's group.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. 1. the media 2. Kerry was a difficult candidate, charisma-wise
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I think the media went out of their way to make him seem aloof
I think the media took their marching orders from their corporate overlords. We almost never saw the "complete paragraphs" that Kerry was accused of speaking in, rather than soundbites.

That said, we Americans have to assume the responsibility for not seeing through this nonsense.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. of course, they also made the swift boat claims seem legit
"Well, nobody really knows about Bush and the ANG, no one knows about Kerry and the medals, so it's a toss-up.... whatever!"
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. This "equal time" will persist for a long time, I fear
Representing "the left" will be a Mark Sheilds, Alan Colmes or Joe Klein. Representing "the right" is Anthrax Coulter or suchlike.
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Southsideirish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. He didn't seem to have any passion or conviction in what he said. He
came across as just another politician mouthing some words to get elected. Also he talked too much, was too wordy for ordinary people. I recall hearing some veteran Boston reporters, when asked what's he really like, at the beginning of the presidential campaign, reply that he was a "nuanced" person. I still don't know what the hell that means, like he sees both sides of things and can't decide what side he's on?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No - it means they UNDERSTAND different sides and can factor that into
their discussion of the issues.

Clinton was accused of being nuanced, too. Most any country's leaders are nuanced in their speech - it prevents knee-jerk reactions from their friends and enemies.

The problem in the US today is that the corporate media made nuance into a dirty word to accomodate the dumbed down speech and declarations of GWBush.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. They did the same with Al Gore
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Funny, but up until 2001, many called Kerry charismatic, starting with
Nixon. Many expected Gore to choose Kerry as a running mate, beliving Kerry's seriousness and charisma would be great qualities.

Then, alot of the reports started coming out that Kerry was aloof, a cold, empty suit who never accomplished much in the Senate.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Funny, all right
Golly, you think the same people who declared Al Gore to be "wooden" and "dispassionate" might've been saying these "funny" things?

(Except for the New Republic, of course.)
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Dean..... passionate, Clark.... charming, Kerry.... uh.... erudite?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Yep it happens all the time
:mad: Pisses me off. Anybody who takes the time to know Kerry and what he's about will see through their BS.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. Part of that is a discussion of what dissent means
in a democracy. This is a difficult thing to discuss. On the one hand, we are a country that was founded on that very concept, we dissent from the established rule and the dissent is so profound and the issue so deep that we can't resolve this difference and are breaking off.

On the other hand, some people will always, always, always see this kind of dissent as unpatriotic. (Kerry knew this at the time.) We were at war. Dissent helps the enemy and demoralizes the tropps. Some people believe this utterly and can't be persuaded otherwise.

This forces the confrontation of the paradox. A lot of people hate that, cuz it makes them think of things in non-absolutist terms.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. Most people don't realize what a corporate machine the media is these
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 11:29 AM by blm
days. You couldn't go to a grocery store and find 3 people who know that all the NBCs are controlled by GE, or even that GE is one of the world's largest defense contractors. They only know they make electric stuff.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Or that Fox and Murdoch are cowards
Who caved into the demands of a 'Communist' China in order to make money in that country. Or that Fox and Murdoch would cave into the demands of any country and ignore the rights and liberties that commentators on Faux News say everyone should have.

These people follow the money and will sell out anyone or anything in order to get it.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. Their kind of collective thinking is easy, and makes them feel smart.
Imagine what life must be for them to be able to repeat the Hannity talking points at the water cooler and everyone around you thinks you sound smart. Hating is easy to do for them. What they don't understand, they fill in with hate. And what they believe in gets reinforced in their private schools and churches, even to the point where their priests are telling them that it's okay to wish bad things on other people.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's hard to fathom sometimes how much Kerry was railroaded by the media.
The corporate media that cares so little about America and more about profit that they would do anything it took to keep the mediocre man we are forced to refer to as President in office to the detriment of America, its people and the world in general. It's so sad the best man didn't "win".
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. You're exactly right
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 11:45 AM by EstimatedProphet
Why are we still fighting the war in Vietnam, here at home? (And if you think we aren't, just imagine what'll happen if it's McCain running in '08, even just for a primary fight.)

We will be re-fighting the Vietnam war forever. We'll never let it go. The reason is that the Vietnamese pulled back the curtain on our myth, and now we are exposed.

The conservatives claim liberals hate America. It's actually the conservatives that hate Amaerica. They're afraid that we're weaklings because we have rights, and it's the self-hatred that gets twisted into the "We're big badass Americans and we can kick the world's ass" ideal that causes Vietnams over and over for us again.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. No, you're right! We will fight this *forever*.
Just as we will fight the Civil War forever.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. You both have it nailed exactly.
.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. The answer
Because the truth is only available in small non-lethal doses. Vietnam was never winnable in any non-Armageddon scenario, but that main was suppressed from the American public- enough- to let the Pentagon and WH bull ahead anyway for other reasons. Fair-org went from mere fact checking to the presentation of the news to the systemic curse of any corporate or government run news media. That is tough to follow. Most people only hear the 85% news reports(only in the American MSM) that call global warning a "theory" when all science reports in unison it is an occurring fact. Many many fewer, even of the scientists, understand how and why such media so bend the truth away from the majority mind. Most of your news "choices"(little exercised) lead to deception. The "victory" of majority control over power and money gives a minority a perverse appearance of choice and democracy instead of truth and democracy under constant attack.

In fact, facts are generally out there and in general the odor from the swamp does afflict the American majority with unpleasant truths no cheerleading press can deodorize. Many who remember when the facts burble up out of the swamp know that they could be known, but the overmind of the busy, pleasure diverted nation always is shut down on the six o'clock news and the pablum press.

As in all issues, most people cling to instinct and sanity and goodwill. Even the fact that the majority of Americans gave both Gore(especially Gore, according to tiny news reporting Gore is the president elect) and Kerry the legitimate victory. EVEN if one trusts corporate news and the election count that night Kerry damaged the mandate of this "wartime" hero president irrevocably. But that is another fact, along with massive vote tampering and fraud that squeaks in the night.

Most people don't hear or long remember those squeaks, those flurries of genuine outrage based on genuine facts. There is no recourse or accountability for truth until it makes it to long messy court cases, and even then, those receive less glitzy coverage than a single downhill skier.

Quantity, quality, natural and purposeful slant conspire organically to follow the engine of deception and still crap is crap is crap and most people- unable to discuss, unable to hear, unable to think under this daily suppressive fire, are discontent and fire back that discontent in raw off target decent instincts. But in the test one sees a huge chunk, smaller than the biblical third of the damned, who support glittering lies and the glamor of evil, substituting hypocritical puritanical sexual morality for real moral spirit. because the people do not become a majority in support of the lies the incompetence and madness of the crimes has risen from comic opera to an impossible black hole.

the people want and would settle for so many compromises but none are given in the war upon their freedom and well-being necessary to control their loyalty to what is right and true.

In the end, there is that question that runs counter to the wisdom of those who explained the success of the Nazis and other RW extremists. That the people must be poor, unemployed, afflicted, wounded in pride and despairing of hope in their government. Propaganda feeds on that. The single source propaganda controlled by the state has to be monolithic.

We have no excuses for what has been allowed, none. But because our way of life fits this RW dream machine as well as Communism(a workers' revolt) fit an agrarian, poorly industrialized feudal society, the oppression of reality to support revolution must become mad, insane, incompetent and ultimately a disaster like the rejection of an incompatible heart.

No, in all societies the wisdom of our own revolutionary forebears who foreswore the topdown imposition
of power, applies to the vulnerability of the masses. Against ruthless power they will bend and rationalize and compromise to live out their daily lives in a dysfunctional civil society until the situation becomes intolerable enough for enough people to unite as they should have done earlier in bloodless prevention. Disinformation that shifts constantly in entertaining dances of the seven veils keeps the small citizen from correctly identifying the big problem which is not enough to fit into a sound byte until it becomes cartoonishly apparent. Comfort and small perspective in the small lives against the white noise of deception, the fading of suppressed alarms. Divisions professionally inculcated by a minority who know how to use the worst of humankind's failings because they themselves are the very worst of our species.

And to inveigh against the victims, the spoiled, naive, hate infected, easily tricked, materialistic dwellers in earthly paradise, simplistic adherents of enthusiastic cults, is again a minor theme in the dark symphony kept playing to keep us sidetracked, powerless, divided and guilty and still following the conductor in the overall unity of control.

The darkness of ten thousand years can be distilled in any one country at any one time. We have seen the light of the new century and fallen back into the "normalcies" of history, wondering why, feeling cheated and a failure. We have no excuses now and both the people and the future resist this recurring, glittering lie. It will not succeed as it has in the past, but it can cause all the physical harm and the eventual destruction of any brute tyranny of that obsolete past. A rock smashing glass is still a rock. But we don't have to all cheer the thugs in unison anymore.

People aren't that bad, nations aren't that great, people aren't that hot. The earthly paradise we are "lucky to have in this great nation" is a dangerous emotional delusion any anxious mammal would cling to. The worst of us know that full well and that is how they lead. The wise give people unpleasant truths and controls they dislike. Naive pride and trust gives people tryannies leading to painful rebellion or escalating woes. Justly punishing the perps would be number one. Exercising constant vigilance and unglamourous democratic duties by the citizenry is required- today, for mere survival.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. A far more eloquent answer than my shitty rant deserves
but thank you for it anyway. Beautifully put.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. But most people
will think, at best, exactly along your lines. That is where the broad path sweeps us all. At worst they will lunge out against designated scapegoats or RW idiots who stupidly go too far.

No one likes to blame themselves or lose faith in their judgment and ALL our judgment is imperfect and most of our flaws, even if know, unchanged.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. Nightline exposed the SwiftLiars right before the election.
Edited on Fri Feb-24-06 11:37 AM by Kansas Wyatt
Whoever the hell the leader of the SwiftLiars was, O'Neil or something?, was on Nightline before the election, and was exposed for what he really was. A lying sack of shit and sniveling crybaby. Nightline just happen to stumble on the place in Vietnam that the SwiftLiars claims were to have occurred, and the people there were still alive to remember whose version of events were factual. John Kerry's story was backed up with eyewitnesses, while the SwiftLiars version was complete horse shit.

In the end of the segment, the SwiftLiar was whining and crying, because those natives there have lived in a closed communist society all these years, so they didn't know what they were talking about. SwiftLiar kept insisting that you cannot believe communist natives there that day, because they have not kept up with the modern election campaign. He was holding his tabloid books up, begging people to accept his fantasy as fact.

Nobody in the MSM reported this to their viewers, and it was ignored as the election went on by. I watched for the MSM to report this, after they constantly repeated the SwiftLiars lies about Kerry, but the silence about it was deafening.

As for those who delude themselves with Vietnam being "winnable." Ask them how many more names they wanted on that wall for the same result. That usually shuts them up.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Snivelling little weenie O'Neill gets bitch-slapped by Kerry in the film
you can just tell that O'Neill must've been consumed with hatred for a man who humiliated hiim on national TV--the Dick Cavett show, in this case (in 1971.)

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. That's how media closes ranks around BushInc. Exact same thing happened
in 1992 about Iraqgate - Nightline did a HUGE report exposing how the Bush Administration ILLEGALLY ARMED and FUNDED Saddam for years and bypassed Congress to literally steal money from the US taxpayers to do it. The rest of the media chose to IGNORE the story as if it never happened.

Exact same thing with the Nightline investigation in Vietnam - the rest of media TOTALLY IGNORED the report as if it never happened.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I was stunned about it
It was right before the election and the SwiftLiars were exposed, so I figured that it would be all over the MSM that the SwiftLiars had lied their asses off about Kerry. Which would boost him right before the election.

Nothing... Silence, after the MSM kept repeating the SwiftLiars over and over, they failed to report the truth about how Kerry was right and the SwiftLiars were wrong. To this day, many people still do not know about the Nightline segment, because the MSM ignored it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. That's why I say that EVERY Dem issue needs the GOP control of media
exposed first, or it will never get a fair hearing in the public.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Is there a video about this available?
I do remember hearing about this but was wondering if there was a way to see this. Sounds funny and interesting. And also on the Kerry movie it shows in the Nixon tapes him talking about Kerry and trying to get anything he could on him and creating O'Neill's stories and everything.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. The Nixon tapes proved ONeil lied when he said he came forward on his own
ONeil claimed he wasn't colluding with the Nixon WH. Too bad the media didn't talk much about ONeil's performance on the famous Nixon tapes. Shows you how much the media will cover for BushInc during an election.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. The Republicans staged a series of well-planned
well-placed slander practices and put them into place during the 2004 election. After all, it worked so well with Gov. Richards and McCain, why not keep using. They are very good at this. They use advertising with short little quips that are catchy, like flip-flopper.....

There were also very well placed strategic events at county precincts and even at the state level, there was wrong-doing and mischief in Ohio. They placed only one machine at heavy democratic precincts, causing voters in Ohio to stand in line till 11:00 for 8 hours or more...
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. It was a good thing I was in the theater alone that day
When they got to the part where they show one of the Winter Soldiers in a very "Abu Ghraib" pose with a dead Vietnamese, the parallels hit me in the gut. Hadn't expected to get so emotional.

It was as much a chronicle of the whole scene as it was about Kerry.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. It's a wonderful film
I love it. Kerry is a true hero.
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