My Big problem with Business With China is

[leftyladyfrommo]

their awful human and animal rights record. It just makes me sick. But then ours isn't so great, either, is it?

I feel sick thinking about that. We are becoming more and more like China and they are becoming more and more like us.

I probably will live to see the day that China and India rule the world. Would have been nice if we had had leadership to keep things under control. But we seem to have absolutely no leadership at this time. And it is going to cost us a lot in the future. Really, a whole lot.

[Lindsay]

1. You're right.

Our "leaders" are only out for themselves and their ultra-rich friends. And they figure they'll have enough money to insulate them from the coming shit-storms. The rest of us are on our own - although we still have each other, if we can figure out how to make the best of that.

[Selatius]

2. At least in the US, we have elections.

Sure, we may have shit for candidates and elections, but the difference is we took the extra step of trying to make the illusion of democracy, and the people buy it. Otherwise, they'd be protesting and fighting in the streets, and frankly, I see none of that. The totalitarian regime in Beijing doesn't bother with such tripe. They're more honest about who they are: A bunch of thugs.

But big business is big business. Doing business with China regardless of the thousands who are executed each year for opposing the regime is good for the bottom line for many corporate boardrooms.

Capitalism is never having to say you're sorry for stomping on somebody's face.

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. Are all the world leaders just thugs?

Kind of seems that way, doesn't it. That is a good word for it. Like a whole new and more powerful form of the Mafia in its heyday.

And the rest of us are just having to learn to live with it - and watch our own backsides.

[Selatius]

6. We don't just learn to live with it, we buy it.

Marx was right when he said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." However, he's missing a big part of the story.

The real opiate is the mere act of "believing." If you can get people to "believe," as in a religion, that they have democracy, you can slowly introduce tyranny, and they wouldn't notice it because they wouldn't abandon their beliefs until it's far too late. When you sit down and think long enough, there are many ways you can invent to manipulate the people. You just have to think, and they are thinkers, these thugs who hold power in the corporate world.

The genius of getting people to believe they have democracy is that with belief comes the trait of infallibility, that it's impossible to lose democracy. It can't happen here! Not in America!

Think about it. This is social engineering 101.

[zanne]

3. Listening to the callers on C-Span this morning...

I heard two callers say that they were against Google censoring in China. The rest all said something to the effect of "Well, Google has to follow China's laws". Apparently, these great defenders of Democracy and freedom think that corporations should be allowed to do whatever they want to make a buck, even if it means siding with the government that ran students over with tanks in Tiannemen Square.

[leftyladyfrommo]

5. Its the money, honey.

That is what our civilization has come to. Its simply all about the all mighty dollar.

Maybe we have always been that way - but I don't think it was always this blatant. All of this adm. stuff is just so blatant and in our faces. We can either like it or not. Doesn't matter one way or the other.

We need a whole new congress, don't you think?

[KharmaTrain]

7. China Is Spasms Of Change

Chinese history is played out over centuries...and its social evolution is just as slow and deliberate.

This country has come a long way since the feudal state it was throughout the first half of the 20th century and the changes in the past 25 years have been astounding. From 1949 until 1972 (some will say earlier), this country was in virtual isolation from the western world, but embraced many of the elements of society that have made it difficult for the Communist government to hold sway like it previously did.

China has a lot of problems and I feel it's a matter of time when a true, but indigenous Chinese version of democracy will arise. It may resemble a lot of what we see now as it will mix the best of our technology with their long-embedded culture. The Confusian culture is still prevelent in the country and that feeds into the authoritarian and/or totalitarian nature of the current regime. The country is going through a slow evolution. The culture wasn't ready after T'ien Amin...probably a generation too soon...but the concept of a xenophobic China is changing as much as our own view of the world.

Truth is...with our mass communications, our globe is shrinking culturally...we are becoming more like them and they like us...and that's not a bad thing. Yes there are misunderstandings and right now we suffer from some of the most repressive regimes since World War II...however, the tide of history shows social change is inevitable and its best we understand these cultures less be constantly intimidated by them.

[leftyladyfrommo]

8. There are many riots there.

And we don't hear about it. But that kind of internal social unrest may mean good things may be coming.

[KharmaTrain]

9. Time Will Tell

My parents traveled to China in the late 70's...they went everywhere by rail because the airlines were unreliable, the hotels had beds made of straw, people still wore mao jackets and speakers blasted music and speaches all over Beijing. My brother just returned from his most recent business trip and the contrast is night and day. The city and most the country is open to travel freely about and the people, while careful in what they say (especially to westerners) are as up-to-date on events...probably moreso than we are.

The Communist Chinese regime has a lot of dissent still on its hands. Fulong Gong still pops up from time to time, the Tibet and other minority issues simmer below the surface and they're facing a problem of North Korean illegal immigration and infiltration that has destabilized that region. Yep, we don't hear much of what goes on inside China, but we hear a lot more than what we did.

A great friend of mine believed that it was the fax machine and satellite TV that destroyed the Eastern Bloc. Once people were empowered to communicate and exchange ideas, it's hard for even the most totalitarian government to supress without a great deal of repression. The Communists long ago realized that economic prosperity trumped political freedom...and so far it's held the wolves at bay. But there will come a time when everyone has a car, a TV and wants even better...that will be the next test for the rules inside the Forbidden City.

Cheers...