RC Church Sinks to New Low

[donco6]

"Hey, - look over THERE . . . " Church argues that bill is unfair because it doesn't go after public school teachers as well.

SNIP

Church representatives argued that a bill to give sexual-abuse victims greater legal power to sue their attackers and their employers was unfair because it exposed the church, but not public schools, to lawsuits.

The bill would open a two-year window to let victims of sexual abuse sue, even if the statute of limitations on the crime had expired. It also would allow victims to sue private institutions for the actions of a person who is dead or incapacitated and would let some claimants recover money in excess of the costs of medical treatment and counseling. Current law allows victims to file a claim against the perpetrator's employer up to six years after the offense.

But that didn't affect Nussbaum's ardent testimony. He argued strenuously against the bill, presenting a list of 85 Colorado public-school teachers who had their teaching licenses revoked for sexual incidents. He cited those violations as evidence that Senate Bill 143 fails to protect all children.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3506986

[BushOut06]

1. In all fairness, why shouldn't schools be included?

I have to admit that I've never been in favor of laws that narrowly target one specific group of people. We've heard quite a few horrific tales of sexual abuse coming from the public school sector over the last few years. Why shouldn't victims be allowed to seek justice in these cases as well?

[REP]

2. Public Schools Don't Have Quite the Cover-Up Scheme As The RCC Does

Yes, there have been some horrible things happening in public schools, which were revealed immediately; the RCC, however, hushed it up, moved the abusers to new parishes, and pretty much denied it ever happned until they were forced to, years later.

[bryant69]

3. Interesting

so basically this is about sticking it to the Roman Catholic Church and not as much about protecting kids?

Bryant
Check it out -_> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[REP]

5. No, It's About Going After An Organization with a Bad Record

They've proven they can't be trusted around the young'uns. Best keep an eye on them.

[bryant69]

7. Well, yeah, but does that mean you ignore other areas?

I mean it's not too far a stretch to suppose that those with the prediliction for this sort of behaivor would move into the public schools rather than the RCC?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[donco6]

11. That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

"Gee, I was going to be a priest so I could have access to the little ones, but that scene is getting too hot. Think I'll try public school teaching instead."

oh yeah.

[bryant69]

18. I don't know - it depends on whether you think something in being a

catholic that encourages child abuse, of if you think these people already had the predilliction.

Bryant

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. I've met just as many perverts

if not more in the public school system as well as the private schools. Don't kid yourself, all schools will do everything they can to cover up for their perverts.

[donco6]

10. Really? Met them?

Interesting. I hope you turned them in, since all states have laws that require reporting of sexual abuse by public school employees.

Unlike RC church, sadly.

[BushOut06]

33. Why this need to doubt what someone says?

Because he's stating something that you don't agree with, you have to question whether he is telling the truth? Is this standard operating procedure here at DU?

[donco6]

37. Only with big blanket statements that have no support.

And they should be questioned:

"I've met just as many perverts if not more in the public school system as well as the private schools. Don't kid yourself, all schools will do everything they can to cover up for their perverts."

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Have you reported them?

The child abuse laws are very strict. Schools absolutely cannot cover up for perverts. If they do, and you have credible evidence, you need to report it and not just here on DU.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. It's one thing to suspect someone of perversion

It's another matter entiredly to prove it and destroy lives without solid proof.

[donco6]

25. So you didn't really know, you just "suspected?"

Interesting. So what made you suspect? There must have been something?

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. I went to RC schools

and worked in numerous public schools when I was getting my degree in Early Childhood Ed. I latter worked in pediatric research and there are wackos in every institution.

Everyone from Father Gay Fay who like to pat the boys butts at the HS dances, to a teacher who gave me advice on how to physically punish children and get away with it. Did I report these people, no but neither did I bother to report the guy who sexually assaulted me on the subway because personally it wasn't worth it. Should I have in certain instances, especially the guy on the subway? Probably?

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. I already gave you a couple of examples

However, here's one more. I know the registrar of my college qualifies, but since we were both adults, what was there to report? That the pervert wanted me to do it with him on his desk after hours? I just made sure I never stayed around the office late (I was a work study student) after that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Then why repeat the accusation here?

If you have no proof, what are you trying to do? What is your point? That you THINK someone is perverted and shouldn't be working with kids?

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. Just posting about past experiences

We still do have free speech don't we? I don't think I've given enough info to harm anyone with my 'accusations'.

[donco6]

46. Just painted all public school teachers with innuendo.

I guess there's no harm in that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Yes you are harming public school teachers

by making accusations like that.

It is one of the RW's favorite talking points to criticize public schools and prove they are failing. That way their 'opportunity scholarships' (we used to call them vouchers) seem so much more necessary.

There are several of us teachers and school employees here who jump on these threads immediately. It is one thing to hear this crap from the right, but another thing entirely to see these talking points posted here on DU.

[DoYouEverWonder]

49. There are good people and bad people

in all walks of life. Some of them happen to be teachers, some of them happen to be priests.

My son's kindergarten teacher wasn't a pervert but she was a complete incompetent and it took 2 years to undo the damage she did.

[Vidar]

26. BS Schools fire at the hint of a scandal, often with no justification.

[BushOut06]

34. Ah, again another blanket statement

ALL schools fire EVERYONE who is accused of abuse. Anyone who suggests otherwise is lying. Because that doesn't fit in with the argument we're trying to make.

[Vidar]

53. I didn't say a word about abuse, just scandal, Nor did I say "all"

schools. Only taught for 20 years. I'm sure I have no expertise in this matter.

[donco6]

9. Actually, it's about giving redress to victims.

It was RC church victims that approached legislators to have the statute of limitations lifted so they could go after their abusers who are still practicing.

When public school victims need this, perhaps they'll come forward too.

[av8rdave]

12. You make an important distinction

regarding redress of wrongs. Has anyone noticed that throughout the RCC abuse scandal, the church's only public acknowledgement/comments (up to and including the Pope) have dealt only with the disposition of the offenders. Nowhere have I seen any evidence of compassion interest in getting help for those whose lives have been damaged by this. At some point, something has to happen to force the RCC to address the harm done to the viticms.

Just MHO

[donco6]

13. I can't help but think of South Park.

The episode where the priest is suspected of abusing boys (only because the town has gone paranoid). He goes to visit the pope, and the only thing the church leadership is upset about is the fact that the boys are tattling.

Not knowing the inner workings of RC-icism, I can only hope it's not quite that bad, but there are elements to it that seem to ring true.

[Bridget Burke]

20. You assume that only boys are sexually abused --only by men!

Several news stories have featured adolescent boys (not children) fucked by female teachers. Quite a few DU'ers thought those boys were "lucky." Perhaps they were "willing"--but there are these pesky "age of consent" laws.

Some of the RC boys were not children. Some of them may have enjoyed the "experience"--until years passed. Do you think that male/male sex is inherently more heinous than female/male?

And girls get molested, too--in RC schools & in public schools. But who cares about them?

Perhaps you should not take South Park as gospel truth.

[donco6]

23. I make no such assumption.

And I'm gay, so I certainly would not consider myself lucky to be "fucked" by a woman. Likewise, the question of whether I think male/male sex is "inherently more heinous than female/male" is utterly preposterous.

And who said I take SP as gospel? Jeez.

I know you're an ardent supporter of RC church, but take a little time before responding next time. You might not end up looking quite so foolish.

[Bridget Burke]

30. If you think I look foolish....

I must be doing something right!

[BushOut06]

6. I understand that, but schools can be almost just as bad

One could also make the case that the school system would often try to shuttle abusive teachers from one school to another. We had a case here in Central Florida where a teacher was arrested last year for gross physical abuse of a student. When investigators looked into the case, they discovered there had been dozens of complaints against this particular teacher over the years. Rather than take action against the teacher, the board would simply reassign her to a different school. My own fiance was the victim of a horrible physical attack when she was in elementary school, where the teacher violently shook her repeatedly - and that person is still teaching to this day. My fiance is still scarred by that incident.

I'm not trying to de-emphasize what went on in the RCC. However, we should realize that this sort of thing goes on all over the country at the local school board levels. That's why I believe that the law shouldn't target one specific group (these laws are usually stricken down in the courts anyway), but should be more inclusive.

[DemonGoddess]

15. and should also realize that it happens in other

faiths besides Catholicism in private schools and other settings.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Child abuse laws have been on the books for over

30 years. How old is your fiance? Why was this teacher not reported?

If she is still scarred by this, hopefully she is getting some counseling.

[BushOut06]

38. Children have very little power on their own

And her case involved physical abuse. Her parents didn't want to "push" the issue, so they didn't pursue the case. Up until that point (I think it was 2nd grade), she had been always loved going to school and learning. After that incident, she absolutely hated school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Then her parents are guilty of child abuse too

Seriously, they should have reported this. It had to have been fairly serious if it still bothers her today.

There is no reason for that. This just makes me sick, when adults decide to not "push" things that are this devastating to kids.

[Vinca]

4. Hmmmm - if kids weren't being sexually abused, this wouldn't

be a problem, would it?

[Bridget Burke]

14. Why should public school students have less protection?

Of course, this case is not about "protection." It's about financial reward after the statute of limitations has expired.

If a child is molested, their parents must go to the police. That is the ONLY way to get "protection"--to get criminals off the street. Parents should not expect any agency to "handle it" discreetly.

Victims have described "suicide, alcohol and drug abuse and bouts of depression" caused by the abuse. Immediate therapy would have helped.

[redqueen]

16. Seems fair to me.

Why not? Go after all of them... not just the ones in the RC church, but all schools, public and private.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Public schools are NOT exempt from lawsuits

This is a crock.

What is unfair is the RCC protecting its priests instead of helping their victims.

[donco6]

24. Exactly.

As I said, it's the old "Hey, look, Halley's Comet!" defense.

Evidently, it's working pretty well. Some of these posts could come direct from Newsmax or WorldNetDaily.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Yeah don't you love this idea of just

throwing out wild accusations without any proof?

And we think repukelicans are evil. :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

28. They are in Colorado....

Colorado public schools are not exempt from the abuse problem. Just check the headlines over the past few years. Professor Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra University, among others, argues that up to 15 percent of all public school students nationally are the victims of sexual misconduct by a staff member, ranging from kissing to sexual intercourse, by the time they finish high school.....

All of this sounds depressingly familiar from stories about past sex abuse in the Catholic Church, right down to an alleged pattern of what one angry public school parent described as "passing the trash," i.e., moving around abusive public school teachers from job to job.

But in most states - including Colorado - there's one very big difference, with very big consequences for public school parents like my husband and me: It's a whole lot easier, and potentially far more lucrative, to sue the Catholic Church, or any church or private organization, than it is to sue the local public school district. The reason is simple. Public school districts enjoy sovereign immunity unless the state legislature says otherwise. So far, Colorado legislators have kept that immunity in place. As a result, public school districts have a sharply reduced liability for incidents of sexual abuse.

www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/speak_out/article/0,2777,DRMN_23970_4404152,00.html

Some people are so eager to blame ALL abuse of children on the RC Church that they let other molesters go free.

[donco6]

35. Immunity only applies if the school doesn't know.

They can be exposed if it can be shown that they knew about the sexual abuse and did nothing about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. That is a total crock

Public school teachers have no more right to abuse kids than a Catholic priest does. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW!!!

IF a teacher abuses a kid IN ANY SETTING, public or private, the teacher is arrested and loses their state certification (in some states, certification is revoked even if the teacher is exonerated - google McMartin PreSchool in California). Parents can and do sue these teachers ALL THE TIME. They also sue the school districts. Teachers lose their pensions, their homes and their worldly possessions. School districts pay HUGE settlements to these parents. (My district paid a mom $30 million not long ago.)

It is a complete crock to come here and say only the Catholic church can be sued. That bit about sovereign immunity is completely false. Just read on and here is what this mother says next:

Under Colorado law, my husband and I can recover a lot more money, a lot more easily, if our son Dan is abused by a deacon at our local parish than if he's sexually violated by a teacher or coach at his local public school.

So in other words, there is no immunity, this parent just thinks she can sue the RCC for more than she can sue a public school district.

Also, NO ONE has said anything about letting these molesters go free.

[BushOut06]

31. Nobody is saying that - the issue is special treatment

"The bill would open a two-year window to let victims of sexual abuse sue, even if the statute of limitations on the crime had expired."

Basically it's giving victims of sexual abuse preferential treatment if the abuse occured within the RCC. If you want to sue for abuse that occured within the public school, and the statute of limitations has expired, you're SOL. At least that's the way it looks to me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Do we have a multi decade pattern of public schools

covering up sexual abuse by their employees - as the RCC has done?

I agree with your opinion, I just think there is a logical reason for extending the SOL for victims of priest molesters.

[donheld]

29. DonnieCo I'm in complete agreement with you

Yes other schools shouldn't get by with anything and seldom, if ever, do. Public school staff who are found to be acting in approprately are not shuffled off to other schools they're prosecuted. RC Church staff, however, are all to often quietly sent to other parishes and the crimes hushed up.

[BushOut06]

32. WTF?

"Public school staff who are found to be acting in approprately are not shuffled off to other schools they're prosecuted."

I'm sorry, but that is simply NOT true. Maybe in some instances, but in many instances they ARE shuffled from school to school. I gave one example that I have firsthand knowledge of, a teacher here in the Orlando area who was recently arrested for abusing a student. But when reporters started investigating her career, they found multiple complaints going back years. Instead of dealing with the complaints, the school board shuffled her to other teaching spots and different schools.

It does happen!

[donco6]

36. Ok, we've heard about that incident.

But in my experience here in CO, when a teacher is found to be involved in sexual abuse, they are fired, license revoked, and they never teach again (their fingerprint record is checked at each school where they apply - even for a bus driver position).

So I suppose it can happen, but it certainly isn't as prevalent as the RC church.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Why aren't abusing public school teachers ARRESTED?

A trial & conviction might actually get them off the street.

Two anecdotal accounts aren't as meaningful as real statistics. Got any?

[donco6]

51. I believe they are arrested.

At least, from what I've seen. I can't speak for Orlando, as that's 1500 miles away from me.

[BushOut06]

55. I'm sure it varies from district to district

In some areas, I'm sure the school boards are very proactive about this. But in many others, I'm sure there is a tendency to "hush" things up as long as the parents don't make too big of a stink. Besides, in these cases, we aren't talking about allegations being made today - we're talking about allegations that might have been made or covered up 20-30 years ago. Trying to make a wide blanket statement either way is pretty foolish. My main point of contention is that it does happen, and in those cases the victims should have the same rights as if it were the RCC they were dealing with.

Fortunately over the past few years, public awareness (regarding the RCC and public schools) has risen to the point where it's much harder to hide these sort of things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. They are arrested where I work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. That doesn't happen where I teach.

In fact, I know two teachers who are sitting at home right now - one is now unemployed - because a kid ACCUSED them of abuse. Yes, here in MO, an accusation alone is enough to cause a teacher to lose his/her job. Happens all the time. I could write a book.

This practice also isn't exclusive to MO.

[donco6]

52. We had one a while ago.

The student reported him to a counselor. The counselor followed the law and reported it to social services. Guy was fired immediately. License revoked. Prosecuted. Can't get another job in education in Colorado - ever.

The RCC on the other hand . . .

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. In MO

a report goes into a teacher's file with the state. It stays there 5 years, EVEN IF THE TEACHER IS EXONERATED. So if you are reported and want to go work in another district, you are out of luck.