Who ORDERED the wiretaps on MLK?

[Rick Myers]

I've got a freeper on another board raving that Bobby Kennedy ORDERED those wiretaps. I am assuming J Edgar Hoover did it on his own... Anyone...

[Canuckistanian]

1. It was Hoover

He was obssesed with MLK, convinced he was a communist.

On edit... Bobby Kennedy was one of the architcts of the civil rights movement.

Tell that person to read a book.

[cali]

18. Sorry, you're wrong

1976 Senate findings:

The FBI collected information about Dr. King's plans and activities through an extensive surveillance program, employing nearly every intelligence-gathering technique at the Bureau's disposal. Wiretaps, which were initially approved by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, were maintained on Dr. King's home telephone from October 1963 until mid-1965; the SCLC headquarter's telephones were covered by wiretaps for an even longer period. Phones in the homes and offices of some of Dr. King's close advisers were also wiretapped. The FBI has acknowledged 16 occasions on which microphones were hidden in Dr. King's hotel and motel rooms in an "attempt" to obtain information about the "private activities of King and his advisers" for use to "completely discredit" them. 2

[Canuckistanian]

28. Well, Kennedy APROVED, but Hoover ORDERED them

The OP asked who ordered them. I don't know what the standard was, whether it was "probable cause" or mere suspicion, but Kennedy should have reigned Hoover in. Although Hoover was a force unto himself at the time.

[blm]

32. NO ONE had control over Hoover - not Ike, not Kennedy, not Johnson.

.

[Canuckistanian]

33. I liked Johnson's quote about him

"I'd rather have him inside the tent, pissing out, than outside pissing in"

[Danieljay]

29. It DOESN'T matter..its a straw man argument... FISA was passed in the

70's and made it ALL illegal. It's been revised several times since. Bush Broke the law. Period. End of sentence.

[H2O Man]

23. It was Hoover.

RFK was Hoover's supervisor, of course, when he served as Attorney General. Hoover approached RFK with requests to monitor King, because of "suspected" communist influence. RFK was not in a position to say no. He signed on for a brief period, and had intended a limited monitoring of King. Hoover continued the monitoring of King long after RFK had resigned.

Those in the corporate media who are insisting it was RFK, and not Hoover, likely fall into one of two groups. The first is those who are woefully uniformed. The other is those who seek to misinform. In either case, it is a good idea not to trust the judgement of anyone who points their finger at RFK. It was Hoover.

[leftchick]

40. Thank you for clearing that up

That is exactly what I remember. The M$M is trying to rewrite history as usual.

[ShortnFiery]

2. According to Rhandi Rhodes it was J Edgar Hoover who instigated this n/t.

[napi21]

3. J. Edgar Hoover!

Ane yes, Bobby Kennedy did go along with him.

[cantstandbush]

34. Hoover. A closet homosexual and racist.

He did it on his own and brought the info to Kennedy and Johnson.

[SPKrazy]

4. I think it was Hoover!

But I happened to hear Sean Insanity saying it was Bobby, according to some book that I didn't catch the name of.

I really don't know, but I always heard it was Hoover, and Bobby and Hoover didn't get along at all

[ET Awful]

24. Yeah, but Hannity would also say that the Swiftboat Veterans book

proves Kerry didn't server honorably and that other books prove that the Clintons killed Vince Foster.

[annabanana]

5. definitely ol' red dress hoover. . . . n/t

[revkat]

6. Robert Kennedy

As attorney general he signed off on them in October 1963. This report is helpful in understanding what happened and why.
http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIIb.htm

[ET Awful]

8. Let's elaborate and tell the TRUTH, Hoover instituted the program,

THEN asked for RFK to endorse it by pressuring him with tales of how big of a communist King and his cohorts were. RFK endorsed the plan under extreme pressure, CALLED KING TO LET HIM KNOW HE WAS BEING TAPPED, and barely a week later, ordered Hoover to back off.

[revkat]

16. did you read the link?

as I said, the link tells the whole story.

[ET Awful]

19. By stating that Robert Kennedy ordered it, you skew the story and make

the link irrelevant. Robert Kennedy did not order it, he authorized it at the request of and under pressure from Hoover.

If you are going to make a statement, make an accurate statement.

[revkat]

26. it is complicated

which is why it makes such a great right-wing talking point. Although it is accurate to say that Kennedy ordered them because he was Hoover's superior and he signed off on them, it doesn't tell the whole story, I agree. Which is why I linked to the Senate report of 1976 (someone else quoted from it above)that does tell the whole story. But if you just keep yelling "Hoover did it" those who have only heard that Kennedy authorized them will not listen to you tell the whole story. I don't want to fight with you, we are on the same side.

[Coexist]

47. OP asked "Who ORDERED the wiretaps" - that would be Hoover

"Wiretaps, which were initially approved by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy"
the above snip is from your link.

Kennedy approved the request. Your subject line is wrong - and misleading. We are not stupid.

[TheDebbieDee]

Just speculating, here - I didn't read your reference.

But, if Bobby Kennedy signed off on the orders, maybe it was because HE was being blackmailed by good old J. Edgar!

[Rick Myers]

13. WOW! Thanks for the info

Apparently Booby ok'ed them for at least a period of 2 years.

[rurallib]

17. Bucking Hoover in that era was a dangerous thing to do.

He had dirt on everyone. Most every politician rejoiced when he died. There is a world of difference between the King situation and the current secret police situation. And it wasn't illegal at that time, I believe. Current situation is a major breach of the law. It is illegal!

[DBoon]

22. I recall he had some serious dirt on JFK

regarding his affairs and possible mob connections.

Hoover could and did bend the kennedy administration to his whim

[ShortnFiery]

35. Yes, JFK was a shameless womanizer BUT

all these freepers who quip, "I don't have anything to hide" ... well I just wonder? Everyone has a skeleton or two in their closet and should have a reasonable right to privacy.

Oh, I forgot, this is BushWorld where sex in the oval office with anyone other than your spouse is considered more treasonous that that of lying the American People into an illegal and immoral WAR. My bad. :sarcasm:

[Just Me]

36. I can't even read the entire report because,...

,...it causes me such a mixture of emotions,...I can not even describe.

It's clear that the "powers that be" saw him as a threat to their hold on power. Bobby was crushed in the middle of those powers.

Why anyone wonders at our skepticism and distrust of our leadership,...MUST be attributed to ignorance and/or greed.

If only the American people knew all the gross crap that has been done in their name.

[cureautismnow]

38. Interesting Snippet from the link...

Another angle for Bobby signing off on this crap, perhaps? Legislative blackmail? Note: "Advisor A" is an "alleged communist."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edwin 0. Guthman, the Justice Department Public Relations Chief during Robert Kennedy's tenure as Attorney General, told the Committee that he had spoken with then Senator Robert Kennedy about the wiretap when it was revealed in a Jack Anderson story in 1968. According to Guthman, Robert Kennedy told him:

he had been importuned or requested by the FBI over a period of time to wiretap the phones of Dr. King, specifically wiretap the phones, as I recollect, at the headquarters of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and, I think, Martin Luther King's home, but I'm not certain about that....

Robert Kennedy said that he finally agreed in the fall of 1963 to give the FBI permission to wiretap the phones, and my clear recollection on this is that his feeling was that if he did not do it, Mr. Hoover would move to impede or block the passage of the civil rights bill, which had been introduced in the summer of 1963, and that he felt that he might as well settle the matter as to whether (Adviser A) did have the influence on King that the FBI contended.... My recollection is that there had been a number of conversations with King by Burke Marshall and Robert Kennedy, and I think President Kennedy had indicated to King that, he ought not to have anything to do with (Adviser A). My understanding and recollection is that King said he would, and then each time the FBI would come back and say, he's still in contact with (Adviser A) ... Robert Kennedy viewed this as a serious matter and not in the interest of the country and not in the interest of the civil rights movement, if the FBI information was accurate. 149

[Bridget Burke]

50. Is "signed off" the same as initiating them?

Please summarize the report.

[sasha031]

7. the current right wing talking point

J Edgar Hoover, he was the head of the FBI, nice little neocon who loved to dress in lady's cloths.
He use to wiretap everybody, to him King was a commy, the Kennedy's told him to stop.

you can tell those pinheads that J Edgar Hoover was a good republican who wire tapped everyone who didn't agree with his philosophy and wore a size 12 womans dress.

crap have the freetards ever read anything at ALL! or just collect talking points from limpballs

[FredScuttle]

9. Yeah, RFK was a son of a bitch....

SO WHAT? Are we quibbling about who ordered and who carried out? Tsh! Don't fall for the classic evasion...keep the focus on the issue at hand - MLK and his family were illegally wiretapped to satisfy the insane-with-power director of the FBI and there are definitely parallels to the situation we find ourselves in now.

[madfloridian]

10. Kennedy did, but Hoover went too far...

Something was posted here last night.

[Gabi Hayes]

11. If you believe Nicholas Katzenbach, who was there:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-katzenbach16jan16,0,2941426.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Hoover requested the taps, which were approved then by the AG. RFK was "furious" at the idea, but caved because Hoover said one of MLK's contacts was a commie, and Hoover said he was trying to prove links between MLK and the communists.

they were AFRAID to cross Hoover, afraid that he might come up with evidence of MLK/communist linkage, and that would be very bad politically for RFK

[Angry Girl]

12. Hoover (Cheney's hero) - nt

[bliss_eternal]

14. Hoover, I think.

Bobby Kennedy HELPED MLK get released from jail. Tell that freeper to go read a book!

[Catchawave]

15. Where they "illegal" wiretaps ?

Most were pre-Nixon.

[tgnyc]

20. Hoover convinced RFK that MLK was a Commie. So RFK gave the green light.

Then Hover went berzerk, and harrassed MLK relentlessly, way more than RFK ever knew.

[Life Long Dem]

21. Carter put it this way.

"It was difficult for them personally - with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated as they became the target of secret government wiretapping, other surveillance, and as you know, harassment from the FBI." -- Jimmy Carter

And the media jumped on him for this.

[Just Me]

25. Fer cryin' out loud, HOOVER ORDERED THE WIRETAPS!!!

I am so damned tired of these assholes re-writing history and taking EVERYTHING out of context. They are FULL OF CRAP!!!

Besides, they're just diverting from the fact that, BUSHCO & THE NEOCONSTERS HAVE AND ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!!

EW!!!

[Jayhawk Lib]

27. JFK's administration

If the buck stops at the top it was JFK....

[Danieljay]

30. This is a crap argument... FISA was passed in the 70's to STOP this kind

of thing by ANYONE. BUSH broke the law. Period. End of story.

[Disturbed]

31. BUSH broke the law.

Bushco and NSA are STILL violating the Law!

Impeachment of Bush/Cheney is required. All of those that violated the Law and are still doing so must be prosecuted.

[Toucano]

44. You're absolutely right.

It's a pointless argument that we shouldn't get sucked into.

[adriennui]

37. attorney general...robert kennedy

approved hoover's recommendation. he (hoover) was going to release the tapes of jack's indiscretions.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Even the "good" guys can get drunk on power.

RFK as AG approved the wiretaps.

[burythehatchet]

41. I think you just ignored all the good information

that has been posted on this thread. Bobby was a civil rights hero. This was a battle between the Kennedy's and JEHoover

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Never the less, RFK did approve the wiretapping.

To ignore it is to deny reality.

[burythehatchet]

45. right, and he told MLK that it was being done

[tn-guy]

42. Look, let's be honest....

If we are to believe that the person in charge is really in charge then RFK was responsible for the wiretaps. Since the FBI Director works for the AG this would seem to make sense.

How can intellectually honest persons argue that RFK was not responsible for what happened on his watch and which he personally approved and at the same time maintain that Bush is responsible for what is happening on his watch? It seems to me that one cannot honestly have it both ways.

Its is hard for me to imagine RFK as a quaking in the corner afraid of big, bad J. Edgar Hoover and simultaneously a fearless campaigner for civil rights and an end to the Vietnam War. Similarly, it is hard to conceive that RFK would approve wiretap of MLK (which he undoubtedly did) without mentioning it to JFK, just as it is hard to think that Gonzales would act on a momentous matter without conferring with Bush.

I'm sure it upsets a lot of people to acknowledge that wiretaps of MLK happened during the Kennedy administration with the administration's full knowledge and approval but it did happen. People are certainly entitled to their own opinions on this matter, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

[H2O Man]

46. Silly. n/t

[Coexist]

49. How can you compare Hoover with Bush?

They acted in different capacities?

[tn-guy]

54. I don't and I didn't

I said that I don't see how one can A) excuse RFK and JFK for wiretaps on MLK, and B) be upset with Bush for wiretaps on US citizens, while C) maintaining intellectual honesty.

People here take issue with Bush for current wiretaps because he is the man in charge and it was/is being done with his knowledge an approval. I haven't heard very many trying to make the excuse that the guy at the NSA did it and Bush was some poor victim of another's actions.

Yet, many of those same people will try to say that the MLK wiretaps were all Hoover's fault and that JFK and RFK were poor victims who were powerless to stop it. C'mon, let's at least try to have the same standard for all presidents and AGs and not be so transparently willing to excuse the actions of "our side" while condemning similar actions of the "other side".

[oasis]

52. Let's be honest. FBI wiretap agents reported to Hoover, the loose cannon.

The right wing whackos have always covered for each other. That's why things are so fucked up today.

[Bridget Burke]

53. It's a matter of proportion. RFK grew tremendously....

In his early career, he was a scrappy fighter against Communism & Union corruption--remember Jimmy Hoffa? Then he was a loyal Attorney General to his brother, fighting against organized crime, mob violence and labor rackets--& assisting in his brother's campaign for Civil Rights. Yes, he did authorize J Edgar Hoover's wiretapping of MLK.

Here's Wikipedia's take on the MLK/J Edgar Hoover relationship:
King had a mutually antagonistic relationship with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), especially its director, J. Edgar Hoover, who had deeply detested the civil rights leader. The FBI began tracking King and the SCLC in 1961.

Its investigations were largely superficial until 1962, when it learned that one of King's most trusted advisers was New York City lawyer Stanley Levison. The Bureau of Investigation suspected that Levison had been involved with the Communist Party, USA—to which another key King lieutenant, Hunter Pitts O'Dell, was also linked by sworn testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC). The Bureau placed wiretaps on Levison and King's home and office phones, and bugged King's rooms in hotels as he traveled across the country. The Bureau also informed then-

Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy and then-President John F. Kennedy, both of whom unsuccessfully tried to persuade King to dissociate himself from Levison. For his part, King adamantly denied having any connections to Communism, stating at one point that "there are as many Communists in this freedom movement as there are Eskimos in Florida"; to which Hoover responded by calling King "the most notorious liar in the country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Martin_Luther_King%2C_Jr.

After his brother's murder, RFK's commitment to Civil Rights deepened. He fought poverty & eventually came out against the Vietnam war. He made a campaign speech in a black neighborhood in Indianapolis, just after Doctor King was murdered. Indianapolis did NOT erupt into riots, as other cities did.:

I have some very sad news for all of you, and I think, sad news for all of our fellow citizens and people who love peace all over the world, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight.

For those of you who are black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and distrust of the injustice of such an act, against all white people, I would only say that I can also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. I had a member of my family killed, but he was killed by a white man. But we have to make an effort in the United States, we have to make an effort to understand, to go beyond these rather difficult times.

My favorite poet was Aeschylus. He once wrote. 'Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rfk/filmmore/pt.html

Then RFK too was murdered. JFK, MLK & RFK were on the same side of the battle. J Edgar Hoover was on the other side--& he's got followers in the current government & on the internet.

[oasis]

48. Hoover intended to blackmail MLK. Rightwingers dodge that fact.

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. Blackmail him over what?

You have to do something wrong to be blackmailed.