First Suicides from ProzacPaxilWellbutrin, now deaths from Ritalin!

[Yollam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060208/ap_on_he_me/attention_deficit

FDA Report Details 25 ADHD Drug Deaths
By ANDREW BRIDGES, Associated Press Writer 56 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - Twenty-five people died and 54 more suffered serious cardiovascular problems after taking drugs to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder between 1999 and 2003, the government says.

Children accounted for 19 of the deaths and 26 of the cases of nonfatal cardiovascular problems, including heart attack, stroke, hypertension, palpitations and arrhythmia, according to a Food and Drug Administration report released Wednesday.

The FDA report also includes data on another 26 deaths between 1969 and 2003 in ADHD drug patients. Those include death by suicide, intentional overdose, drowning, heat stroke and from underlying disease.

The report's release came a day before an FDA panel was to discuss new ways of examining the potential cardiovascular risks of the drugs, which include amphetamines such as Adderall, and methylphenidates, sold as Ritalin, Concerta, Methylin and Metadate.





You know, I don't buy into L. Ron Cruise's assertion that all psychiatry is bunko and that there is no psychiatric medication that can't be replaced with vitamins and excercise, but dammit, we have got to be the most hopped-up, drugged-out overmedicated society in the history of the planet. My kid has attention problems, but I'll be damned if I'm going to put him on that junk. He's a 7 year old boy. He is who he is and I love him that way. Do Americans not realize that there is a major kickback system for pushing these drugs on us and our kids?

[SPKrazy]

1. Ritalin Seems To Be Used To Control Classrooms

and not nearly as often just to help kids that truly have ADHD.

Some have ADD or ADHD. There are other treatment options: dietary modifications, EEG biofeedback, psychotherapy, food additives, etc.

When all else fails, then maybe Ritalin would be an acceptable alternative.

Of course, insurance rarely pays for other treatments than drug treatments, and schools often DEMAND that a kid is put on Ritalin or other psychostimulants (aka amphetamine like substances)after being diagnosed by a teacher (not to put down teachers) who has a license to practice medicine where?:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Dietary modifications don't work

Neither does EEG feedback. The most effective treatment for ADD or ADHD is stimulant medication accompanied by psychotherapy.

Teachers do not practice medicine and do not DEMAND that kids take Ritalin. If you know of a teacher who has done this, you need to report it. It IS enough to cost a teacher his/her job.

[SPKrazy]

7. EEG biofeedback DOES work

and in some cases dietary modifications also work

[SPKrazy]

12. Links

http://www.latitudes.org/articles/neurobehavioral_adhd.html
http://www.drkoop.com/newsdetail/93/510953.html
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/57/66030.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_ln_04
http://www.aapb.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3330

Brief summary of evidence supporting the efficacy of biofeedback for ADD

Kaiser and Othmer (2000) did a study, with 1,089 patients, which showed that neurofeedback training of sensorimotor and beta waves led to significant improvement in attentiveness and impulse control, and positive changes as measured on the test of variables of attention (TOVA). The patients had moderate pre-training deficits.

Monastra, et al (2002) worked with 100 children taking Ritalin as well as having concurrent parent counseling and academic support. Half also received EEG biofeedback. There were similar improvements on the TOVA and an ADD evaluation scale. Only those children who had EEG biofeedback were able to sustain their improvements without Ritalin.

Other studies using similar techniques showed increases in intelligence scores and academic performance if theta training was added and was successful. (Lubar et al 1995).

One small study of 16 children compared children trained with neurofeedback to those on a waiting list. They found increased intelligence scores and reduced inattentive behaviors as rated by parents (Linden et al 1996).

Two small studies have shown EEG biofeedback to be as effective as Ritalin on numerous measures (Rossiter & LaVaque 1995, Fuchs, Birbaumer, et al, 2003).

Another study found that 16 of 24 patients taking medication were able to lower their doses or discontinue medication totally after successful training (Alhambra et al 1995).

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. Biofeedback has shown to most beneficial when used along with medication

So which was it? The medication or the biofeedback or both?

It is also lots more expensive than medication, which may explain why it isn't as popular.

[SPKrazy]

206. It Isn't More Expensive

The front end costs may be

but even if you buy your own equipment, the fact is that you won't be spending more money on it.

Biofeedback therapists can do their job within 10 sessions easily.

There are plenty of biofeedback practitioners that aren't using it as adjunct therapy, but rather as primary therapy. And having success!

[SPKrazy]

207. Self Delete=dupe

[LynneSin]

13. About AD meds - they can and will work!

and as someone who has spent about two years first on Prozac and then Lexapro, I can honestly say the stuff works. I had moved to a new state, ended a long term relationship and hated my new job (which btw, is not my current job). Anti-depresents helped me to get out of my shell and back to my normal self. I had switched to Lexapro because I was told I could lose weight while on that AD med and I actually did on 5mg of the stuff. But they upped me to 10mg and I put on like 50lbs in 3 months. Careful research on the internets and I found that this was one of the many complaints that users had about the drug.

For most people, anti-depresents should not be a lifetime use but for most of us it's a situational thing to help us adjust and get back on track when things are bad. Sorry, I'm not going to buy into some Cult programming me and taking all my money in order to get me adjusted. AD meds were about $20 a month with a doctor appointment about every 3 months. Much easier to do. We all just need to learn when to use them and then when we're doing better to get off the damn things

[SPKrazy]

15. EEG Biofeedback isn't Scientology n/t

[LynneSin]

16. stand corrected

oops!

[flashdebadge]

20. I agree they "work" or have an effect. I think they are too often abused.

They are prescribed like candy these days. Often I think the kid just wants attention.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. And the meds are literally life saving for kids who really need them

Thanks for sharing your story.

[Wind Dancer]

105. Ritalin was a life saver for my son years ago.

I've worked with the finest experts in the field including S.E. teachers, neurologists, neuro-psychologists, and an ADHD pediatric psychologist. These professionals (independently) all agreed my son had the most severe case of ADHD they'd seen in a 4 year old child.

I was extremely lucky to live in a university town, Charlottesville, VA, at the time. UVA Hospital plus other resources helped my son and family deal with the complicated issues and decisions. I was accused of "taking the easy way out" by giving my son this drug by certain people, it was brutal. His impulsively level was so extreme that if I hadn't listened to the experts and my gut instinct, he probably wouldn't be alive today. I am serious.

There are many professionals that over diagnose ADHD, over prescribe Ritalin leaving the kids in desperate need at a disadvantage. Diet can help tremendously in conjunction with other techniques but my son still needed medication. There was also strong support group for parents of ADHD children, it was my saving grace.

His father refused to acknowledge the problem (my ex), a common problem that adds to the stress of kids and mothers. It took years plus the legal system before my ex finally recognized my son's needs.

BTW, I have been reading Thom Hartmann's wonderful books on ADHD that should be required reading by everyone.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1887424148/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/002-4858707-2145628?%5Fencoding=UTF8

prou2Blib, thanks for understanding.

My son is now an adult and hasn't needed Ritalin for many years.

[SPKrazy]

209. Exactly, For Kids Who REALLY Need Them!

But not all kids with ADHD need meds

and not all kids being diagnosed with ADHD are in fact ADHD!

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Show me the research

[flashdebadge]

22. There is no blood test, cat scan or x-ray that can.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. That's not what I mean

Show me the research that PROVES that diet and EEG therapy is an effective treatment for ADD. If these methods work, there will be scientific research proving this.

BTW, good luck, because unless there is some new research I am unaware of, you won't find any scientific support for either of these interventions.

[flashdebadge]

31. an altered diet won't solve the problem but lowering sugar intake is a

good thing for these kids who almost certainly get enough of it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Lowering sugar intake is good for any kid

but it will not reduce ADD behaviors in a kid with ADD. There is absolutely no scientific research supporting any treatment except medication and psychotherapy - in combination.

[flashdebadge]

39. are you in the field of psychology? If so I want to ask you a question.

I have a friend who is married and both of their kids are on ritalin. One is only 2 years old!! Both of them are good providers but I wonder if the kids really get enough attention. Kids that young don't possess the ability to express their selves very well. So telling mommy and daddy that they are not spending enough time with them is impossible. I think some of these kids just don't get enough hugs.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. No I am a special ed teacher and an ADD mom

The last research I read said kids under 5 should not be medicated unless they are SEVERELY hyper or inattentive. These would be kids who hurt themselves or are violently hyper. That is pretty rare. These are the kinds of kids we used to 'institutionalize'.

All kids need hugs. I could never speak out against that :)

[tsuki]

129. PDR, Ritalin is not to be prescribed for children less than 6 years

of age. There are multiple physiological problems that could be associated with the ritalin usage among younger children. Check out the PDR.

[MakeItSo]

148. 2 years old on ritalin is insane!!

That really is unbelievable. Sheesh.

[Ilsa]

165. Why is a 2 year old on ritalin? Normal 2 year olds are busy

kids. I can think of no justification for this, and I am a nurse and have an autistic son who does require meds. (Ritalin didn't work for him, though; Strattera did.)

[DemonGoddess]

42. here's a link

for you. http://www.feingold.org/ They even state that the dietary changes MAY make it unnecessary to use medication, not that it's 100% effective all of the time and eliminates it. I went through this with my youngest boy, and a change in diet for him made a HUGE difference. I resisted the teachers telling me I needed to take the kid to a doctor and get him on meds. My doctor was APPALLED when I told him that. He said there are many things to try, and that he would only prescribe as a last resort, not the first resort. BTW, school did nothing about it when I reported it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Feingold's work has been disproven for over 25 years now

He is not well respected by child psychiatrists who treat ADD or researchers who study treatment. There is no credible scientific support for dietary changes and their effectiveness in treating ADD. It's a snake oil treatment. And Feingold is a very rich man from it.

Yes, I tried his diet on both of my kids. It had zero effect and actually made one of them worse.

Did you report the school to the state dept of education? Or OCR?

[ragin_acadian]

82. snake oil treatment?

So you advocate feeding the chemical garbage (artificial flavours & colours, BHT, etc) found in twinkies and pop-tarts to children, and then controlling the results with amphetamines?

Gee, how did the human race manage to combat ADD/ADHD without the effects of ritalin, pre-20th century?

Maybe pre-20th century, no-one put petrochemical crap in our foods?

Seriously, post some credible "Feingold-disproven" links.

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. Kids who are helped by the Feingold Diet are not ADD.

They have food allergies. There is a HUGE difference between a food allergy and ADD. Both can cause hyperactivity in children but ADD is a neurobiological disorder that is not affected by diet.

Kids with ADD need therapy and often benefit from medication. Changing their diet does not effectively treat their ADD.

Every doctor my kids saw plus my college professors who have spent decades studying this disorder call the Feingold Diet a snake oil treatment for ADD.

I know my kids are ADD. Dr. Feingold's diet didn't help at all. It made one of them worse.

Pre 20th century, ADDers often self medicated and became alcoholics or drug addicts. I prefer the 21st century outcomes for ADD kids.

[tsuki]

112. There is no research. In 1974, the food industry put up 7 million

dollars to disprove the connection between food additives and behavior.

Not one study has been done in the US since. So therefore, you wont find any US scientific support for the dietary intervention other than anecdotal evidence.

However, we have achieved some success. Vanillin must be labeled. Also Yellow #5, #6.

Several studies have been done outside the US, including K. S. Rowe of Australia, L. K. Salzman of Australia, and M. H. Schmidt of Germany. They all agree that the Feingold elimination diet significantly affects behavior.

But the US Corporations have refuse to do a study. No study, no evidence.

I think that it is important to say that Feingold's paper before the AMA was merely a call for a study to be done. Benjamin Feingold, M.D, was a noted allergist (Kaiser-Permanente) who through the elimination diet (for allergies) noticed an possible connection between food additives (petroleum based) and behavior. He never expected the response from the Food Cartel that he received from his "minor" paper.

[SPKrazy]

68. See #12 n/t

[Lorien]

71. Especially reducing sugar intake

I have ADD, and notice a huge increase in symptoms around the holidays, which are the only times of the year I eat anything containing sugar. I've heard many parents of ADD children say that they've seen symptom reduction once sugar intake was curbed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. It is the holidays that make you hyper, not the sugar.

[Lorien]

125. No, it's not. And I've never been hyper.

I have the limbic type ADD, so never been hyperactive. I've eaten sugar from time to time between the holidays, with the same effect. I don't interact with family during the holidays either-far less stress at that time than most.

The effect of sugar on ADD patients is very well documented. Here's one refernce:

Another factor causing hyperactivity in these children is they have difficulty with glucose metabolism, or in other words blood sugar problems. Normally, when you ingest sugar, pancreas releases insulin, which stops blood sugar from rising too high. At the same time, adrenal glands release certain hormones to keep the insulin from driving blood sugar levels too low. According to research, ADHD children release only about half the amount of these hormones as normal children. It was found that this uncontrolled drop in blood sugar significantly decreased brain activity in these children.

It was also found that the ADHD children unconsciously become physically hyperactive in an effort to force their adrenal glands to release more of these hormones (catecholamines). These children are unconsciously placing their bodies under stress trying to 'squeeze' more hormones from their already weakened adrenal glands.

As a solution, Dr. David Williams recommends avoiding sugar and high carbohydrate foods, as well as strenghtening the adrenal glands with a product called Drenamin. In some children, a thyroid imbalance may be contributing to ADD and/or ADHD. If avoiding sugar and high carbohydrate foods and taking Drenamin does not cure the problem, Dr. Williams recommends taking thyroid glandular supplement Thytrophin and the liquid iodine supplement Iosol.

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/add-adhd-diet.php

This theory certainly makes sense to me. I also have trouble when I eat too many starchy foods, like baked potatoes.

[sproutster]

36. Hmmm... interesting - the calming effects of taking my little spaz

off of sugar during school was a fake?

...diet modification certainly does work.

My kid would have some candy ... freak out, crash by crying.

I went to the school and yes, they wanted him on drugs. I look around - soda vendors, candy vendors ... and my kiddo was always owing lunch money (which I had given him).

I had to take a hard line, took money in myself, and watch the sugar.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Of course there are anecdotal stories that support the diet hoax

That's what made Feingold a rich man. But there is ZERO credible scientific support for his diet as an effective treatment. I have spent YEARS studying ADD. The Scientologists are huge supporters of Feingold's diet. They are regular protesters at national ADD conferences. They have been spreading this disinformation for at least 20 years now.

[tsuki]

122. He is not responding to the sugar. He is responding to the

petrochemical and preservatives. Vanillin is horrible. That is why, by law, it must be labeled separately, not as artificial favoring.

If an additive meets a level of 10% population allergy level, it must be separately labeled. BS, on the lie that Vanillin must be used because there is not enough Vanilla in the world. Madagascar can supply the entire world with Vanilla at the current rates. It just costs more. Less money in the CEO's pockets.

[havocmom]

61. Have seen it work - amazing results in fact

Just took time to weed out foods which caused problems. Lots cheaper than forcing pills on everybody who does not fit some standardized ideal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Put that in the form of a scientific study

and you'll make a mint. Of course, that means you have to replicate your results in literally thousands of ADD kids.

[tsuki]

131. Feingold mom here. Good for YOU! Time and Care.

:yourock:

[Yollam]

144. But it's a "hoax"!!!

Just because it's working for you is no reason to continue!!! :eyes: :sarcasm:

[tsuki]

158. Ovarian Cancer, sixteen years ago. Walked out the hospital after

eight days with the staff telling me that they had never seen anyone heal so fast. No high blood pressure, cholestol, hardening of the arteris. And they wonder why? LOL. I have the secret. NO PETROCHEMICAL.

[earth mom]

101. Dietary modifications DO work

I know this first hand. Unfortunately parents are too busy or too lazy to implement the drastic dietary changes that are needed with diets such as the Gluten Free-Casein Free diet that has worked wonders with many ADD, ADHD and Autistic kids.

Sure, drugs are the quickest way to control these kids-but as we are seeing this is also the quickest way to screw up their minds and the quickest way to bring about their deaths. :cry:

This country really needs to break its addiction to quick fixes-especially when dealing with children! :grr:

[tsuki]

133. You Rock. eom

[earth mom]

138. Wow-Thanks for making my day!

:blush:

[tsuki]

159. You be...Most Welcome!

[MakeItSo]

151. Dietary modifications DO WORK for kids, don't buy into the Pharma hype

Kids' brains are still developing so diet can make a big difference. Fish oil supplements, no refined sugar and no transfats made a big difference with our kid. I'm not against the stimulants --- as a matter of fact I take them -- but then again, my brain is done growing.

[MakeItSo]

166. Wrong! Dietary modificatons DO work! Look at the data, not the Pharma

I'm all for drugs personally (they're fun and easy) but the fact of the matter is that American doctors -- who so often avoid Grandma's advice and common sense, only to later be proven wrong -- are usually not up to speed on the latest health research unless it's sponsored by a Pharma conglomerate.

In Great Britain, where people go into medicine for reasons other than BMWs and trophy wives, a number of studies have showed a correlation between EFA's and better concentration. Here's one:


Washington, DC, May. 10 (UPI) -- A study in this month's issue of the journal "Pediatrics" has come up with a provocative study of the improvement in children's concentration when they are fed supplements of fish oil...

In the last 20 years, conditions like dyspraxia, dyslexia and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder have increased fourfold in Britain. In 2002, researchers launched a study to discover why. It seems the revolting fish oil was a crucial addition to the daily wartime diet of deprivation. And today's diet is not much better.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050510-122858-2553r.htm

Grandma's castor oil vs. Big Pharma's pills. Which is more apt to pay for a BMW? If you guessed pills, you are correct!

[flashdebadge]

9. I'm not a believer of ADD or ADHD. If you put these kids in front of

a computer video game they wouldn't be distracted if a plane crashed into their house. They will play if for hours and hours with NO attention deficit. Now please tell me how these kids have managed to turn on/off a supposed disease.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Hyperfocusing is a characteristic of the disorder

The problem is making them STOP playing that video game. A non ADD kid can get up and go do something else, while it is very difficult for an ADD kid to turn off his attention and get up and change activities.

[flashdebadge]

24. It's very difficult for me to quit playing a fun video game but I ....

don't have ADD.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Gee that is real scientific

They really do have scientific studies that prove that hyperfocusing is a characteristic behavior of ADD.

[flashdebadge]

32. provide me with link

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Sure

In the proper surroundings, the ADDer can spend endless hours immersed in a task. This is called "hyperfocusing," and is an extremely focused and productive ability. We all are acquainted with individuals who read entire textbooks on highly technical matter in a couple of days, and learn it better than they could in months of classroom instruction; this is typical ADD hyperfocusing, It requires a tremendous expenditure of energy, and time disappears during this period. For the ADDer, this is highly pleasurable, because it is using the creative and focusing abilities to the maximum.

http://www.sdc.org/~pwolf/addpost.html

http://www.erikfisher.com/ADDBklt.html

Symptoms of ADD in adults and children
http://www.scatteredminds.com/ch2.htm

One of the best books on ADD: DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION by David M. Hallowell, & John J. Ratey
discusses hyperfocusing:
http://www.neteducationcenter.com/hs/hsdrivento.html

A link to the DSM-IV, which explains diagnostic criteria for ADD and other psychological disorders:
www.psychologynet.org/dsm.html

[mzmolly]

164. Sounds like most kids I know?

:shrug:

[chat_noir]

180. Hyperfocusing

5. Hyperfocusing

Hyperfocusing is a symptom that is overlooked by many as a characteristic of ADD. Hyperfocusing is generally observed as an individual’s ability to work on a task such as playing a game, reading a book, performing computer tasks and job skills for an extended period of time, with little awareness of the amount of time that has passed. Loss of time is common during a period of hyperfocusing, and performance on these tasks can be superior. It is because of this ability to complete tasks of interest that many question the presence of an attention deficit. Kids who hyperfocus on computer games will often know "all the tricks" and learn to "beat the game with ease." While many may view this as antagonistic evidence, we often view this characteristic as supporting evidence.


Know anyone that...

reads a book in one sitting?
doesn't hear/acknowledge a co-worker entering their office because of focus on a task?
yet doesn't seem to be hyperactive?

[Armstead]

64. Nah -- It's real

It's probably one of rthose things that's a spectrum of severity, but ADD is a real syndrome that can be very hard to "just buck up and get over it."

I have the inattentive (non-hyperactive) type, and it really does make normal focusing difficult. Doesn;t make you totally disfunctional, but it can be a pain in the ass to have to go back inside several times when leaving the house because you forgot your wallet, then your keys etc.

The apparently contradictory characteristic of hyperfocusing is also real. I've actually started my car to warm it up, stopped at the computer for a minute to check out e-mail or something, and then an hour later remember that I was on my way out and had left the car running.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. I have shown up at meetings a day early,

taken the wrong exit off the highway on my way home, and lost my keys more times than I could ever count. When my dad was alive, every time I bought a new car he would have me make him a copy of the key. And yes, I usually had to call him at least once a year because I had locked my keys in my car. Boy was I excited when I finally got a clicker to lock my car with! LOL

I can also read a book in a day. If it interests me, I literally can't put it down.

[mzmolly]

100. Sounds like me.

It's part of my "charm." ;)

[MakeItSo]

156. Being able to play video games doesn't rule out ADHD

As a matter of fact, letting kids play video games for hours contributes significantly to ADHD (in my opinion). Throw the video games out and the TV out and I guarrantee that the kid who is addicted to them will be ADHD'ing all over the place, at least until they get over withdrawal. When the body depends on that much high-energy stimuli to "get off" then when the stimuli is taken away, nothing else will satisfy.

[Pavulon]

29. Ritalin

is over prescribed. However it is a stimulant. So if a person is not ADD and given ritalin it will have the opposite effect. So a bored non add kid would be more hyperactive.

ADD can be documented in PET scans, a medical condition.

The new ADD drugs are non stimulant drugs (stratera).

Schools can not demand treatment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Ritalin will help anyone focus and pay attention

Which is why its effectiveness is not a reliable way to diagnose ADD.

PET scans are still in the experimental stage and not considered a definitive diagnostic tool yet.

[Pavulon]

41. No

My wife did a neuro rotation. Ritalin will not cause a person who is not add to concentrate any more than aderall or any amphetamine analogue.

If you do not have add drink a pot of coffee or 6 espressos and see how your concentration is effected.

PET and SPECT scans can diagnose adult add.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Amphetamines improve concentration in anyone

And PET scans are still not used to diagnose ADD.

I am a special ed teacher and wrote my master's thesis on ADD. I have been working with ADD kids for 26 years. I also raised two.

[Pavulon]

52. I am

ADD and married to a neuro surgeon. Nuclear medicine images do not work on kids. PET and SPECT imagery can show differences in the adult brain.

There is no way i could have made it to where I am without the drug. I can look at different times in my life and see how it made a differences. My time in the reserves verses college highlight the effect. I could barely pass simple training, even with high SATs and good intelligence concentration was a problem. I have a technical degree and do technical work. I can read hundreds of pages of mundane technical information and retain what i need. Before I could barely get a CDL.

Long term Amphetamine use will not improve concentration. Meth users are proof. Ritalin has an "opposite" effect on add kids. They calm down on the drug, give it to a non add person and they are wired.

Ritalin corrects chemical imbalances in the patient.

I respect peoples right to treat their kids in whatever way they choose.

It is over diagnosed but for the people who need treatment a good option. I respect your experience and opinion but have my own as well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. I have seen the research on PET scans

and understand what you are saying. But the fact remains that they are still not used to diagnose ADD. Docs still rely on that Connors Scale and other behavioral rating scales. I fill them out on kids all the time.

I just spent an entire day with a child psychiatrist last week in training on childhood psychiatric issues. She said PET scans do seem to work, but they are still not considered definitive enough to use as diagnostic tools. She also wondered if the insurance companies' unwillingness to pay for PET scans could be a reason we don't yet use them. But until they make it into the DSM-IV, we won't be seeing them used to diagnose ADD.

[Lorien]

69. Here's a link for more on SPECT tests:

http://amenclinics.com/ac/tests/

just to compare/ contrast.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. Thanks!

[Pavulon]

72. That is a sad

truth. Income determines access to this testing and high end medical care. Many people who deal with this do not have access to any one other than a GP to make a diagnosis. Not all GPs are bad, but I think a lifelong condition should be diagnose by a specialist.
The checklist is still a standard for diagnosis. However a good relation with teachers helps determine if the medications are helping or if they are causing more problems.

Nuclear medicine diagnostics are not great tools in children so says mrs sawbones.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. Smart pediatricians refer these kids to psychs

But we still see way too many kids who go to their regular GP and get psych meds.

We had one about a month ago. He is 5 and came back to school after Christmas with a note telling us he is now on Ritalin and Risperodal (SP?). The school was NEVER contacted by the doctor; he just took the parent's word for it that he is ADD!! We still have no idea why he was put on Risperodal. Our social worker immediately called the parent and then the doctor. Our nurse just flipped. Scary. :scared:

[SPKrazy]

70. Ritalin is a focusing drug

it does nothing to "correct imbalances"

sorry, that just isn't factual

[Pavulon]

73. Ritalin

is a psychoactive drug. So is caffeine.

I am not advocating ritalin. Just pointing out that it has a place. It is a tool, if misused it can cause serious problems. So can any number of medications.

However more than 26 children have died from aspirin interactions in the last 5 years than the entire 30+ years in the op's article.

Ritalin is an effective tool to treat a medical condition than can prevent people from leading productive lives.

[SPKrazy]

77. Don't Disagree, but it is WAY over prescribed

and it can vary from county to county in the same area of a state.

Why?

Standards of the community of medical practitioners can vary from area to area.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. I disagree that it is overprescribed

but I don't know how you could prove it one way or another.

I see far more kids who need all kinds of medical treatment and don't get it than kids who are overmedicated.

[SPKrazy]

89. Wow, just Wow!

What world do you live in?

I'm sorry, I forgot you are a special ed teacher so I'm sure you do see a lot of kids that need medication.

But that is not representative of the majority of kids out there who are being medicated with Ritalin that have family problems (alcoholism, addiction, divorce, abuse, etc) and just need someone to listen to them, and love

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. And I suppose you are a child psychiatrist

You have such a wealth of knowledege on the subject.

[SPKrazy]

204. No, and you aren't either

and I wasn't putting your profession down

I was simply saying that perhaps your view of the problem is skewed by your only working with the segment of the population that has problems like that.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/backlash/un.html

[bleedingheart]

106. my son was prescribed ritalin

to help him deal with some of the issues related to Asperger's syndrome. However it only turned his mood darker.

We didn't try another drug for two years...even though the child pscyhologist, the psychiatrist and our pediatrician had examined his case history and recommended a medical alternative along with therapy.

My pediatrician has known my son since birth...I remember him coming to see me after he was born. He knew that my son had a dark and depressed aura about him when he was 4 years old and we kept trying to make the best of it....he was perfect in so many ways...the perfect baby, the perfect toddler, gifted with language, could sit still with tasks for hours on end...but he would also talk about how he was not loved, how he wanted to die.

We fell for the rhetoric and tried not to be "one of those parents who medicate kids"....until we realized he need some help.

4 months ago we started meds and he is a different boy. He is happy and interactive. The psychiatrist was so pleased at our last meeting to see the change.

[SPKrazy]

205. Great! And Kids Who Need Meds Should Take Them

However, there is a problem with overprescribing of Ritalin and like stimulant drugs in this country.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/backlash/un.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. It is a stimulant drug

that literally stiumulates part of the brain to act as a filter and control attention and overactivity.

[tsuki]

136. Vitamin R. It is used now well into the twenties. Doctors

prescribe it, but nothing is done to overcome the attention deficient.

There is something wrong when children are put on it during the terrible twos and are still taking it at university.

[Yollam]

48. It also clearly carries a health risk.

Which is clearly shown by the OP article.

Bearing that in mind, are you opposed to people trying other things like diet etc. and using Ritalin/Adderol as a last resort?

I'm not totally against meds, but when we have something like 4 million kids in the US on this stuff (and hardly any kids in most other countries), one must wonder if it isn't being recklessly overprescribed and used as a crutch by bad teachers.

[Pavulon]

53. No, people should do what is best for them

some people can use coping methods. Some people drink 10 cups of coffee a day(self medicate).

It is overperscribed by GP doctors who, IMHO, have no reason to make that diagnosis.

Schools should have zero say in what a child's medical treatment is.

The health effects are worth weighing against the outcome of the treatment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Diet changes don't work

but how can anyone oppose reducing sugar intake in kids?

One of the more interesting studies I read showed that kids are hyper at birthday parties not because they are eating cake, but because it's a birthday party. LOL

A good diagnostic workup will only try medication as a last resort. The entire process, when done correctly, takes months and even years.

When my oldest son was diagnosed, I was adamantly opposed to medicating him. We tried literally everything else except meds for almost a year. Then I finally caved in and the change once he went on medication was almost immediate and dramatic.

My younger kid was diagnosed at age 3 but at that time, they never medicated kids under the age of 6. So we also tried just about every other therapy for him. And like his brother, once he was old enough, medication was very effective. I honestly believe it made the difference for both of my kids and I shudder to imagine where they would be today if we hadn't medicated them.

[Yollam]

57. So the risk is irrelevant to you.

Okay...

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. The risk is minor

There is over 70 years of research on the effect of stimulant meds on hyperactive kids. Side effects are minor and rare.

Name one other medication with this much research proving its effectiveness. 70 years ago, penicillin wasn't even prescribed.

[Yollam]

137. It's not minor to those whose kids have died.

That's kinda like telling Cindy Sheehan "The chances of a soldier dying in Iraq are only 1 in 750".

I don't thing the odds are much of a comfort to those who've been affected.

I'm not debating its effectiveness, just the fact that it is being prescribed as a matter of course to a lot of kids who probably are NOT ADHD, and it's being used as a first resort.

[MakeItSo]

168. you keep saying diet doesn't work -- but that ignores the data!!!

This from a fish oil study in Great Britain (I keep repeating this on the thread because you keep repeating your statement that diet doesn't work):

Once their IQs, behavior, reading, spelling and motor skills had been tested the children were divided into two groups. Over the course of three months, one group was administered doses of fish oil, high in omega-3 fatty acids. The other group received placebo doses of olive oil. In 12 weeks, the reading progress of those on the essential fat supplements increased by nine to 10 months, while the placebo group continued at normal progress levels. As soon as the placebo group's doses of olive oil were replaced by omega-3 additives at the end of the 3-month trial, its members' reading ability also surged. Behavior and concentration improved by a degree usually derived from the administration of Ritalin, a stimulant commonly prescribed for ADHD...

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050510-122858-2553r.htm

[MakeItSo]

109. No health risk for adults, unless you consider coffee a health risk

Ritalin has been used by millions of people for over 50 years. That's as big a statistical sample as you're gonna find. Still, drugs aren't for kids unless they really, really need it.

[flashdebadge]

2. On an episode of "House" last night they claimed Ritalin was is cocaine...

I have also heard from a doctor that Ritalin has the same pharmacological make up as cocaine. I have not done the research to know for myself but that is what a doctor told me.

[SPKrazy]

5. Methylphenidate vs. methyl-benzoyl-ecgonine

One is a CNS stimulant, the other is a local anesthetic with CNS stimulant properties

Not the same

tell that doctor he missed pharmacology class

[flashdebadge]

10. Well that is what I was trying to say. They both have same "properties"

[LynneSin]

6. Ritalin is like a class III drug that is considered highly addicted

and is actually bought and sold on the streets as a drug. As goofy as the show Desparate Housewives is they actually had an episode where Lynnette got hooked on her son's ADHD medications

[Pavulon]

17. Class 2

same as fentanyl. Pain in the ass to take.

Ritalin does work for people with add without the side effects of new drugs. It has ben around for decades, well tested and documented.

[hedgehog]

182. Well, if they said it on a network TV show

that's good enough for me!

[Angry Girl]

4. Bush's New Freedom Initiative - read this to protect you & your kids!

WHAT? ARE YOU CRAZY?

A new nationwide initiative has been quietly in the making since 2002. Conceived in Texas, apparently with President George W. Bush’s enthusiastic blessing, there now exists some 27 sites around the country piloting various parts of it. Nationally, however, the proposed legislation earned barely a blip on the radar screen — the project is so hush-hush that two officials were sacked for speaking to the press about it — until mid-July, when the House Appropriations Committee approved $20 million in new federal monies to begin nationwide implementation.

The New Freedom Initiative — a plan to screen the entire U.S. population for mental illness and to provide a cradle-to-grave continuum of services for those identified as mentally ill or at risk of becoming so. Under the plan, schools would become the hub of the screening process — not only for children, but for their parents and teachers. There are even components aimed at senior citizens, pregnant women, and new mothers.

In April 2002, President Bush established the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health to conduct a “comprehensive study of the United States mental health service delivery system.” The commission issued its recommendations in July 2003, chief among them being that schools are in a “key position” to screen the 52 million students and 6 million adults who work at educational facilities.Now they are ready to “go national.”

The precursor endeavor, the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP), was a trial balloon, not a pilot program.This means a start-up venture (usually confined to one town or state) to assess the amount and type of resistance to an idea.TMAP started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas, and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas. Recently, the New Freedom Commission designated TMAP a “model” medication treatment plan, whereupon President Bush instructed more than 25 federal agencies to develop a nationwide “implementation plan.”

http://www.beverlye.com/200410131912.html

Bush plans to screen whole US population for mental illness

A sweeping mental health initiative will be unveiled by President George W Bush in July. The plan promises to integrate mentally ill patients fully into the community by providing "services in the community, rather than institutions," according to a March 2004 progress report entitled New Freedom Initiative (www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/newfreedom/toc-2004.html). While some praise the plan's goals, others say it protects the profits of drug companies at the expense of the public.
<SNIP>

But the Texas project, which promotes the use of newer, more expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs, sparked off controversy when Allen Jones, an employee of the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General, revealed that key officials with influence over the medication plan in his state received money and perks from drug companies with a stake in the medication algorithm (15 May, p1153). He was sacked this week for speaking to the BMJ and the New York Times.

The Texas project started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas, and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas. The project was funded by a Robert Wood Johnson grant—and by several drug companies.

Continued...
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2004-06-19-Bush-screen-US-mental-illness.htm

Protect Your Children Against Bush's (July 2004)
Forced "Mental Health" Screening - The PPRA Act of 1998
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/protect-your-children.htm

TeenScreen - Angel of Mercy or Pill-Pusher
http://www.opednews.com/pringleEvelyn_041405_teenscreen.htm

[LynneSin]

8. What better way to control the proles from questioning the adminstration

I wonder if they would go as far as medicating those children who's parents are considered 'enemy of the state' (IE they're known members of anti-war groups and other organizations that are against the Bush Regime)

[Angry Girl]

25. Can you say Solzhenitsyn?

:scared:

[Imagine My Surprise]

11. I was on Ritalin once for several weeks...

and I was able to concentrate much better. BUT I can tell you that you feel it taking effect the second you take it and I would not want to be on it again.

[Pavulon]

18. Placebo effect

Ritalin like all drugs take time to enter your system. Unless you injected it or snorted it it would take 15 - 30 minutes to enter your bloodstream.

It effects your stomach and that goes away with time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. What you said

LOL

[Beaverhausen]

14. oh boy

:popcorn:

[Initech]

19. Good thing I stopped using those drugs a long time ago...

[sendero]

27. Ritalin and Adderal...

.. are SPEED. They have all of the same side effects that SPEED has. Long term use is bad for you physically and bad for you mentally also.

[Pavulon]

37. Sorry

Ritalin has been used for 50 years. It's side effects are outweighed by its benefits for people with ADD.

ADD stops people from learning. This effects people of all base intelligence levels. This causes people to be unable to train for technical jobs.

Learning is key for success.

[Yollam]

50. Didn't Einstein have ADHD/LD?

Would he have turned out as he did had he been all mellowed out on Ritalin?

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. It doesn't mellow you out

Einstein would most likely have done even more wonderful things if his ADD had been treated. Edison too. Both men were tormented by hyperactivity and inattention.

[sendero]

55. Sorry ..

.... the stuff has serious long term consequences to brain chemistry. Our kid was on it for two years, it took months to get him off of it and on to something less damaging that works just as well.

Seriously, this stuff is practically amphetamine. Very few people think it is a good idea for long term use. I'm not saying that ADD isn't a real problem. I AM saying that Ritalin/Adderal is not the answer.

[Pavulon]

67. Medications

work differently for different people. I have taken it continuously for almost 10 years. Off and on for 17. I can stop and start it with no ill effect (other than sleep disruption for a day or 2) I get a complete physical every year and have no medical side effects.

It is a stimulant, so it should be taken seriously. However blanket statements about answers are not fair. Finding the right drug for an individual is a unique process.

I continue to take it because it is old. In my line of work we have an early adopters penalty. I see the same in medicine. I do not want to take a new drug if a proven drug works the same or better for me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. This stuff IS an amphetamine

and as I said in another post here, it is probably the safest drug on the market today. 70 years of reaearch backs that safety up.

Not all kids can take it. But no research shows it is dangerous long term. The Scientologists like to spread that misinformation.

[sendero]

103. Well...

... I'm not against all psychiatric medications, I take lithium every day. And I'm not necessarily against ritalin per se, I just don't think it is as safe as you say, and my son's doctor was convinced it was making his problems worse not better and now that he's off I have to agree.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Some kids can't tolerate it

just like some people can't take penicillin. But that certainly doesn't mean it isn't effective for most who take it. I also tend to trust the research. Like I said all over this thread, you can't beat 70 years worth of studies showing it is a safe medication and it works.

[tsuki]

149. Banned in Sweden, and much tighter controls in UK, Germany and

the rest of the Europe. Drug of last resort over there.

[sendero]

160. I hear ya..

... the "studies" cited by so many are more than likely funded by the makers and not worth the paper they are printed on.

My first wife's father died young of heart disease, he was a radioman in WWII and they ate amphetamines like candy back then, they had no idea it fucked up your heart.

Maybe ritalin doesn't and maybe it does I don't know, but I sure wouldn't depend on the companies who make the stuff to tell me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. ADD makes kids unavailable for learning

and it is so so sad to see kids who are not getting treatment and struggling with behavioral and self esteem issues. It really is heartbreaking.

[flashdebadge]

38. I have relatives on this stuff and asking them to consider getting off of

it is like asking an alcoholic to stop drinking tomorrow. I mean they start to get angry the very moment I bring it up but I'm concerned for their long term health. This stuff has only been around a few decades. We don't know what the effect is for someone who takes it for 40+ years is. It's rather scarry. And most who have taken it for a few years think that they could NEVER live without it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. No it has been around longer than most other meds on the market today

and has an extensive amount of research proving its safety.

Stimulant meds were first used on hyperactive kids in the 1930s. How many meds commonly prescribed today have 70 years of research backing up their safe usage?

[Lorien]

66. No kidding; I just stopped using Adderall yesterday after over a month

of being on it (prescribed for my ADD). At first it was great; I was focused without being jittery, wide awake, I got a huge amount done the first week (tackled jobs that I had put off for years), I thought I had finally found my miracle pill. But by early last week I was nervous, shaky, short tempered, feeling antisocial, couldn't sleep, dizzy, and felt like thoughts were racing through my head like a tape on fast forward-and I had cut my dose in half two weeks ago! I had been lead to believe that Adderall was among the safest of ADD medications, but apparently it's only "safe" if taken very infrequently. I still feel like I've been on a tilt-a-whirl for hours on end today. Not good.

[Pavulon]

74. Adderall

is a direct analogue of amphetamine. There are other drugs, including non-stims, that can treat adhd. symbalta is a non stim drug for adhd.

Cycling on and off of stimulants will mess your sleep cycles up. This can be corrected with other medications.

You can not take these drugs on an as needed basis. They require a regimen. A psychiatrist is a good place to start. They can help you find a drug that works and help you mitigate side effects.

I found mixing caffeine and ritalin screws my sleep up. Booze and sugar also don't help your body in finding a good sleep pattern.

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. I liked Adderall beter than Ritalin

but some ADDers prefer Ritalin.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. I take it you didn't consider reducing your dosage?

[Lorien]

135. Please READ the post you responded to. I said I cut it in half.

Do you honestly think that cutting the dosage didn't occur to me? Jeezus.

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. Sorry

Trying to warch TV and read DU at the same time isn't always a good idea for me.

[mzmolly]

157. Thanks goodness you weren't a child unable to articulate that while being

forced to take it.

[kath]

172. Good point, mzmolly. From the article I linked below:

"In addition, although the potential bodily side effects of stimulants, including appetite suppression and sleep disturbance, are well known and usually monitored, the mental and emotional side effects are less discussed and are not considered an indication to discontinue medication. In its practice parameter, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry includes in its list of "minor (expected, tolerable)" stimulant side effects mild anxiety, mild depression, mild irritability, dull/tired/listless, mild picking at skin/nail biting, and fleeting tics.<3> ****Whether these side effects are tolerable to the child is not known; studies that evaluate this question have not been performed. The point is that a "diagnostic trial of stimulant medication" is not necessarily straightforward, diagnostic, or benign.****"

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:5VUnadrbM9cJ:www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522190%3Frss+Furman+ADHD&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

[mzmolly]

175. That's my biggest issue. My husband had awful side effect from ritalin

as a child, he could not articulate them. He was forced to take his medication to keep his teacher happy. Thankfully the teacher he had the following year had a different philosophy and suggested he be taken off meds. He's been fine without them.

We all only have our own experiences to draw from, I guess. I am not anti-ritalin, nor am I pro-ritalin, but I really think giving kids medication with serious side effects before they can tell you what they are experiencing should be done only in extreme circumstances.

[Catchawave]

34. This is really scary news....

If only the pharmaceuticals would spend their 2 billion/yr advertising budget on actual research....:shrug:

[HeeBGBz]

40. They are trying to put my 5 y.o. grandson on Ritalin

He's only in preschool and he's NOT hyperactive. Just excitable when something interests him. My son has ADD and my grandson is not nearly as overactive as he was. Grandson at age 4 would sit for hours and do 3 or 4 jigsaw puzzles at a time. My daughter doesn't want him on the Ritalin crap but is being hassled by preschool teachers.

[Pavulon]

43. Go to a neurologist

or child psychiatric specialist.

No reason to take medical advice from any one other than a doctor.

[flashdebadge]

45. I agree. Have brain scan done. If it comes out normal...HE'S NORMAL!

[Pavulon]

47. They don't work

on kids. Children can not be diagnosed based on imagery. However a neurologist or child psychiatric doctor can make a good diagnosis.

Someones reaction to the drug is a strong indication of their condition.

(listening to my wife over my shoulder)

[HeeBGBz]

63. But why go through all that?

If he doesn't seem to have a problem as far as we are concerned? Just the school or teacher. I don't know much about the situation with the teacher. My daughter was just telling me this stuff the other day. I won't be moving back down there until April.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Good luck finding an insurance company that will pay for that brain scan

[Danieljay]

59. Why are we a nation of drug addicts?

"we have got to be the most hopped-up, drugged-out overmedicated society in the history of the planet"

Anyone ever ask the question why? Answer that question and we might get to the real issue.

[Beaverhausen]

62. Follow the money. eom

[tsuki]

153. And Ciba has made a bundle.

[Pavulon]

162. ritalin is generic

cheap as dirt. been in use since mid 50's.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Kids all over the world are ADD and take Ritalin

It is not an exclusively USA phenomenon.

[jeffrey_X]

118. I ask that question all of the time....

Nobody wants to change their lifestyle, so they take the easy way out and take medication to treat the symptons and not actually work to solve the problem at hand.

It is really scary to think what would happen if the AMA actually started working with America to become healthier rather than rely on medication. Of course it would never happen, because it would ruin our economy....how fucking ironic is that?????

[MakeItSo]

167. People have always taken drugs, nothing new

Alcohol consumption in the 1870s was double what it is today. Drinking on the job was often taken for granted. Opium, hash, cocaine -- it's all been around for a long, long time and the strongest drugs used to be legal, so you can imagine what that did to consumption.

People like to alter their state of consciousness. It's probably a natural human inclination. Andrew Weil points out that from the time people are toddlers, they often like to spin around and around until they are dizzy and fall over.

[Taxloss]

75. Onion headline: "Ritalin cures next Picasso"

I believe that SSRIs have an important role to play in the treatment of depression and anxiety in adults, and that it can be literally life-saving. However, drugging adolescents and younger children I am concerned about. You experience a tumult of mind-altering drugs produced naturally during that time, added synthetics to the mix seems a bit unwise. Surely counselling and therapy can handle whatever problem it is until the child reaches greater maturity.

[Pavulon]

78. FYI

Ritalin is not an ssri.

I do agree it does have an effect on personality.

ADHD in children is real. Drugs can have a real effect when perscribed to people who need them.

[Taxloss]

80. I know Ritalin is not an SSRI.

The OP mentioned both SSRIs and Ritalin. AFAIK, adults are not treated with Ritalin. And I think that dietary changes should always be the first resort with ADHD, which may be real, but is also new. So you have to wonder what has changed in kids' environments.

[Pavulon]

96. Ritalin works

in adults. My personal feeling is that docs are lazy and do not like rewriting c2 scripts every month.

I take it as an adult and it does its job.

[mzmolly]

114. May I ask what it does?

I'm curious? Do you have trouble sleeping at night and such?

[MakeItSo]

119. Nope, it washes out of your system in 4 hours

It's like coffee without the jitters. Try it you'll like it :)

[mzmolly]

132. I dunno, I think I'll stick to coffee.

;) How does it help you concentrate and such?

[MakeItSo]

142. Absolutely, but if coffee works for you stick with it

It's no panacea. I'm always a sucker for the latest mental health wonder drug. When "Listening to Prozac" came out I was right in line. But it wasn't as good as portrayed and the sexual side effects are much more obvious than Big Pharma ever admitted.

I like Adderall because it definitely helps me concentrate and, let's face it, it's an upper to a minor extent. Plus, when you're more productive, you usually feel better about yourself. I also have to say that the dirty little secret about Adderall/Ritalin is that they are great weight loss drugs. People often eat to spike their dopamine levels. I've lost about 25 pounds from my peak and don't eat for mental satiation any more.

[mzmolly]

150. I'm sold now!

:P

[Pavulon]

152. Gee

never did that for me. Maybe the sarcasm helps with that.

[MakeItSo]

145. On the other hand, Johnny Cash was a speed freak

Drugs can contribute to creativity and they can take it away.

[KT2000]

83. We are destroying

the brains of our children! The environmental exposures we are all exposed to did not take into consideration the neurodevelopment of the fetus before approval. Now that there is evidence that our children are suffering neurological problems, they are drugging them instead of preventing the problem. Too much $$ to be made stealing from our kids.

The fetus is most vulnerable in the first three months. Unfortunately, the mother could be exposed to all kinds of poisons without her knowledge but those that are nerve agents (pesticides) and hormone mimicers are some that affect the development of the brain of the child.

Google Dr. Philip Landrigan of Mt. Sinia - he is trying to bring awareness to this issue.

[bleedingheart]

87. Imagine having a depressed 6 year old that talks of killing himself

imagine this child lives in a stable home with two loving parents who love him and nurture him....but all the while he has dark mood swings. Happy in his little obsessions but unhappy and anxious when he is removed from his environment.

My son was diagnosed with Aspergers over two years ago. After two years of therapy to help him cope we finally realized that therapy alone was not enough. 4 months after starting an anti anxiety med he is a different child. He no longer as moody and he is now happy more often. He is still obsessive about his interests but he is more willing to share his knowledge.

I can't tell you how hard the road has been but today I no longer hear him talk about killing himself....that was unbearable.

[mzmolly]

99. "admitted deaths"

my guess is there are FAR more. Poor kids. Sheesh, let kids be kids!

[MakeItSo]

107. Ritalin has been around for 50 years, it's as safe as coffee

That said, I don't give my kids coffee, either. Medicating kids to keep them docile and compliant is something out of a science fiction novel. Let boys be boys for Pete's sake! We need more male primary school teachers and single sex classrooms, if you ask me! And lots more physical ed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. Helping kids stay focused and attentive is completely different from

keeping them docile and compliant.

[MakeItSo]

115. Ritalin is used to make boys act more like girls in the classroom

Girls suffer from ADHD at one-tenth the rate of boys, and clearly have an advantage over boys in today's elementary school education system based on test scores, matriculation rates, progression to college and any other metric you wish to measure it by.

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. LOL

Your user name fits quite nicely.

Tell you what - you spend ONE weekend with an ADD kid off his/her meds and get back to me.

[MakeItSo]

134. My kid has tried to chew holes in my arm, believe me I know

We've been through hell and back with him. Ritalin works well for some kids but it is definitely over-prescribed. I also didn't like the fact that it may stunt the growth of children right when they brains and bodies are developing the fastest. We wanted to exhaust all alternatives before trying meds (although I'm on them now, see their value, and would never judge anyone for giving them to their kids as long as they exhausted all other options and saw no improvement).

We got rid of all transfats, used fish oil supplements and lots of salmon patties and the like, and tried Ross Greene's technique out. We're lucky -- it's been an amazing transformation for the better.

I highly recommend this program. The guys who founded it are PhDs and highly regarded among child mental health professionals. It's quite simple to follow but you must be consistent:

http://www.explosivechild.com/

[Yollam]

141. The boy I used to babysit was on Ritalin...

...and we were like family. I saw him both on it and off it. He wasn't all that different. His grades improved somewhat, but not phenomenally. He stayed on it into his 20s, and eventually got really into marijuana, and has now gone into an orthodox Jewish cult.

I'm not saying that his results were disastrous - he's a nice person and all, but he came from a wealthy family with every advantage, and hasn't done much with his life at 30.

As for his ADHD diagnosis, I am no doctor, but to me, his pre-Ritalin behavior seemed like perfectly normal boy behavior.

[janx]

121. Yes, that's true.

But the over prescription of this drug has been a travesty. In the eighties, I knew two sisters who both had their sons on the drug because these mothers had a tough time disciplining their children.

One of these kids was locked in his room for long periods as punishment (at the age of two or so).

He naturally rebelled. The next thing I knew, his mother had taken him to a doctor who put him on the drug.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. Interesting quote I found:

Ritalin may be “over-prescribed” in America, it may not be. But if it is “over-prescribed” it is because it actually works! If it didn’t work, sometimes dramatically, it wouldn’t be “over-prescribed.”

http://www.newideas.net/treatment.htm

[mzmolly]

140. The question is who does it "work" for?

How does your child feel about the ADHD medication, for example?

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. Both my kids were grateful for it.

They could tell it helped them succeed in school. One of them is in college now and on the dean's list. He will make an excellent teacher when he graduates. 20 years ago, I didn't dare dream he would be where he is today.

[mzmolly]

163. How could they tell they were succeeding in school? Praise from adults?

I'm glad your son is doing well, but many kids who were not medicated (after being told they had ADHD, or not) are doing fine also. I know a few - personally. Some have been mentioned in this thread. My guess is your sons, in a learning environment that was respectful of who they were/how they learned, would have thrived as well? I realize that a typical school setting can not always accommodate the various learning styles/personalities of all children, however. Especially given the number of students often in a class room today.

That said, I dislike the attitude that one HAS to medicate a child who acts in a certain manner. I would not criticize a parent for doing so, but I would ask that those who choose to medicate refrain from the same?

Here is the flip side: http://www.breggin.com/classactionmore.html

It is important for the Education Committee to understand that the ADD/ADHD diagnosis was developed specifically for the purpose of justifying the use of drugs to subdue the behaviors of children in the classroom. The content of the diagnosis in the 1994 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association shows that it is specifically aimed at suppressing unwanted behaviors in the classroom.
The diagnosis is divided into three types: hyperactivity, impulsivity, and inattention.

Under hyperactivity, the first two (and most powerful) criteria are "often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat" and "often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected." Clearly, these two "symptoms" are nothing more nor less than the behaviors most likely to cause disruptions in a large, structured classroom.

Under impulsivity, the first criteria is "often blurts out answers before questions have been completed" and under inattention, the first criteria is "often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities." Once again, the diagnosis itself, formulated over several decades, leaves no question concerning its purpose: to redefine disruptive classroom behavior into a disease. The ultimate aim is to justify the use of medication to suppress or control the behaviors.

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. My kids, as is true of most ADDers, were unavailable for learning

without their medication. They were unavailable for life in general. Both were incapable of attending long enough, in any setting, to concentrate and learn. Boy Scout meetings and riding their bikes were just as difficult as paying attention in school. One of them didn't even have the attention span for video games. The other one, to this day, rarely watches TV as it does not hold his attention.

One of my kids threw unbelievable temper tantrums and injured himself repeatedly before he went on medication. We were in the emergency room so many times that we were suspected of child abuse. He never slept through the night until he was 6 years old. He didn't walk until he was 2 and did not speak coherently until he started on medication. He was in speech therapy for most of his childhood. His brain was literally racing so fast he was incapable of slowing down and concentrating on any task. I can't even describe how frightened we were for his safety. Don't get me started on his social skills; needless to say, he had no friends. We were unable to find a baby sitter who could handle him so we adjusted our work schedules and didn't go out. We didn't eat in a restaurant or go to a movie theater for 5 years. We rarely took our kids out in public; it was too much of a hassle to keep them calm.

Parents are free to choose any treatment they want for their kids who need it. Medication, along with psychotherapy, was the most effective treatment for my kids. It also improved our life at home rather significantly. It was not a decision we made lightly. No school or teacher ever forced us to medicate either one of our kids. (Indeed, by the time they started school it was painfully obvious they were going to have problems.) We spent tens of thousands of dollars on therapy and saw dozens of specialists and therapists. I literally have an entire file cabinet full of documentation on both of my kids.

And medication appears to be the most effective treatment for 100s of kids I have taught.

It is also taking every ounce of self control I have this evening to not call your post patronizing and insulting.

[mzmolly]

174. Please read your own posts before calling mine patronizing/insulting.

I am sorry that your kids/family has suffered and I am glad that you found relief. I'll leave it at that.

Peace

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. And your expertise would be in what field?

How many ADD kids have you raised? Taught? Treated?

We preferred to listen to the real experts when making decisions about how to help our kids. And we obviously did the right thing since both of them are thriving and successful adults today.

[mzmolly]

177. My husband was diagnosed with ADHD as a child and my own child

likely qualifies for a diagnosis. Hell, I probably qualify, and I'm not joking when I say that.

My child has Tourette Syndrome and OCD. I know something about ADHD, TS, OCD and other neurological issues. I've also consulted "experts" and most don't agree on the ins and outs, imagine that? ADHD, as you may or may not know, is thought to be associated with TS (according to SOME experts/others not.)

Further, I would never insinuate that YOU have not done the right thing for YOUR children/family. I took issue with posts you made which seemed to indicate that you felt sorry for kids who were not medicated, however? Perhaps I misunderstood?

I really think as parents we ought not judge one another for making different choices, and you have my apologies if I have made you feel judged. I did not post the article above to declare my feelings about ADHD and medication, I posted it for another perspective. I really have not dug my heals in on this either way. I don't believe in negating the experience of other parents though at times I may be guilty of doing so. If I've come across as an ass, I apologize.

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. Thank you for apologizing.

This is what I so strongly objected to:
"It is important for the Education Committee to understand that the ADD/ADHD diagnosis was developed specifically for the purpose of justifying the use of drugs to subdue the behaviors of children in the classroom."

That's a crock and certainly doesn't help parents who have children like mine. For the vast majority of kids with ADD, medication is a lifeline to school success. To spout anti-Ritalin talking points (that come directly from the Scientologists, BTW) is offensive to scientists, doctors and researchers who have devoted their careers to helping these children. And it is misleading to parents who are desperate and looking for answers.

I certainly never meant to imply that all kids with ADD should be on medication. I have merely tried to relate my own experiences, which I will admit have been largely positive concerning ADD meds.

[mzmolly]

181. Actually the quote is from a psychiatrist not a scientologist.

More on Breggin from Wikpedia: Breggin reportedly helped his wife leave Scientology--which she refers to as a cult--and both have endorsed efforts to assist people who are caught up in cults or cult-like organizations.<4> On the Internet and in the media, it is still common to see him derided as an "ally of Scientology". In particular, drug maker Eli Lilly regularly links him to the Church of Scientology.<5> The drug industry, according to critics, often cites links to the Church of Scientology in order to discredit its opponents. I'm not endorsing Breggin nor am I dismissing him.

However, we are all reflecting upon our own experience(S) - correct? My husband, for example was placed on ritalin as a child, had horrible side effects, including auditory hallucinations (which kept him occupied) and he was too little to articulate what was happening. He was forced to take his "medication" and hated it. Thankfully in the second grade his teacher said "he doesn't need ritalin" and his parents removed him from meds.

I appreciate and respect your experience, as well as the experience of parents who choose cognitive/dietary methods to handle various situations, including ADHD. At times there is more than one road to a positive outcome. So, let's not belittle one another for making different choices.

My major concern is that parents have been considered "neglectful" for refusing medication for their children when it comes to ADHD and other like conditions. ADHD is a diagnosis and thus subjective, I feel it's a slippery slope when we demand everyone treat children who exhibit X symptom in the same manner. We have a variety of choices in this regard, and as such we need to respect the choices of other parents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

187. It is a Scientology talking point

They have been preaching against Ritalin for at least 20 years. They come to national ADD conferences and other events where nationally recognized ADD experts are speaking. They are as easy to spot as Fred Phelps, and their signs are about as tactful. I was on their mailing list for years. This little quote is one I recognize from their literature.

There are SOME stories of kids who couldn't tolerate Ritalin, but it has been a very effective intervention for the vast majority of kids with ADD for whom it is prescribed. Scientology, which preaches against ALL psychiatric meds, refuses to acknowledge that. They preach that there is no such thing as ADD and these kids are the 'victims' of bad parenting. They have done a huge disservice to children and have insulted parents who struggle with hard to manage kids. I tend to get fairly upset when I see their anti-ADD crap posted here.

[mzmolly]

188. I don't like the tactics of the "drug pushers" or the "anti-drug" crowd.

Again, for me it's about respecting choice. I don't think any parent should be harassed for deciding for or against medication.

Have a nice day P2BL.

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. Yes those drug ads sicken me.

My sister works for a pharma giant and she hates the ads too. It's interesting that she says most of her colleagues also dislike the ads.

I agree about choice. I just hope it is an informed choice.

Peace mzmolly :hi:

[mzmolly]

192. ITA on the "informed choice" point.

Peace to you also.

:hi:

[janx]

146. Watch that logic.

It may be useful in some situations and therefore lauded, but it should not have been prescribed in the cases I mention--especially the one I elaborated on.

Following the same logic, we might assume that fast food burgers are great because so many Americans are buying them.

It taint necessarily so.

[MakeItSo]

130. I was diagnosed with ADHD, but only after concern for our kid

When I started reading about ADHD, it sounded more like me and less like him! Anyhow, I wasn't about to even consider giving him a drug without trying it myself first. I like it, but I've always liked drugs :) I used to use pot for ADHD but pot is "dirty" drug -- it builds up in your system because it's fat soluable. For me, I've found that I am amazingly clear and productive on pot for about a week, and then I just start doodling on important documents and running increasingly late for important meetings (plus, the old lady isn't attracted to a stoner husband).

Ritalin and adderall wash out fairly rapidly. Besides, now I don't have to sneak around my wife hiding my bong breath. It's no panacea. In an ideal world I'd be eating vegan food and be completely natural. But I live in an artifical world, so I'm not going to automatically turn down artifical solutions.

[mzmolly]

111. Hmmm, not so sure it's a safe as coffee, but I agree with everything else

you said. Perhaps it's as safe as a keg of coffee in the system of a 5 year old?

Nothing against those who have found relief for their children, as I've not walked in their shoes.

[MakeItSo]

117. No way would I give it to my kids unless absolutely necessary

Some research indicates that transfats and a lack of essential fatty acids can really f-up the brain of kids. ADHD skyrocketed at exactly the same time transfats became pervasive in the food supply.

Fish oil supplements and no trans-fats really helped my guy calm down.

[mzmolly]

120. Could be?

I wouldn't doubt that a bit. We've had many NEW health issues since trans fats came on the market.

[MakeItSo]

123. The theory is that the transfats are inert junk food for the brain

The brain is made up of fat, but the thinking is that transfats fill up space but are inert -- plastic, if you will --- so they just take up space but don't help with brain functioning at all.

Fish is a staple of many of our ancestors' diets. The low-fat craze combined with the transfat craze combined with a decline in seafood consumption ... well, you get the picture....

[mzmolly]

128. I sure do.

:hi: Makes total sense.

[Yollam]

171. That certainly fits in with the fact that there seems to be less ADHD...

...over in Japan, where fish is a major staple in the diet...

[BiggJawn]

113. 25 out of HOW many 100-thousand-odd scripts filled?

You folks can go woo-woo at "BIG PHARMA" and take all the vitamins, silver colloid and homeopathic essence of vibrating fermented chicken livers you can stand, but if it wasn't for anti-depressants like Prozac and Welbutrin, I'd had killed myself and likely had taken some folks with me YEARS ago.

In 1995, over 1400 children DROWNED. where's the outcry to ban water?

[RB TexLa]

185. glad things are going better for you

:hi:

[BiggJawn]

186. I said they were?

Thanks for the wave, but life still sucks. The morbid fascination with "I wonder what calamity is gonna happen NEXT?" had overridden any desire to leave early years ago.

Maybe it's mecury poisioning from all those vaccines they gave me when I was a kid?

[October]

116. I hear 'ya -- our son is 8

He didn't meet the "ADD criteria," when his IQ was tested. (They were looking for that, I guess when his IQ was tested? Isn't that amazing!) The teachers "couldn't figure him out." He is bright, articulate, but often in his own world (bored to tears) and his work didn't always reflect his intelligence, etc.

Finally, after 3 years, we pulled him out of the school system. Where they see "problems" or things to "fix" with Ritalin, etc., we just see a unique little guy. He's polite, and was never a behavior problem. He's very friendly. One teacher never got over the fact that in 2nd grade (7 years old) he wrote the letter "i" upside-down. To quote her: "I've never seen anything like that in all my 30-plus years of teaching!"

My husband and I were dumbfounded by her being so flustered.

So, home schooling is what we do and I love it.

In the meantime, I've done my own research and found that our boy is a VSL (Visual-spatial learner). I discovered I'm the same way (no surprise, since I'm an artist). So, he's thriving now at home and actually loves school. I use a terrific and very progressive curriculum for him. Secular. He's also an excellent musician, so where he might not be a linear or convergent learner, he excels musically and I think that's cool. I mean, don't we need all kinds!

More on VSL's. (Not a personal plug.)

www.gifteddevelopment.com

[mzmolly]

126. Awesome story.

May I ask what curriculum you use?

[October]

212. Sure! Sorry for the delay in responding.

I'm using the K-12 curriculum. (And yes, I freaked out when I learned Bill Bennett was on their board. But then again, he resigned (or they fired him) rather quickly after his recent racist comments. I wrote a strong letter myself, asking for his firing.)

Anyway, their curriculum is solid and thorough! Also, I supplement when I feel the need. For instance, when the History curriculum introduced Ancient Rome and Greece, we were riveted all throughout the Medieval period. It was awesome! Then, however, the curriculum went straight into the Italian Renaissance -- completely skipping The Crusades. (A bit dishonest, I thought.) So, I added a brief bit on that myself (appropriate for an 8-year-old), and therein lies the beauty of home schooling.

As an artist, I didn't mind how the Art curriculum invoked Christianity, because during those early time periods, that's all anyone painted! Now that we're into the Italian Renaissance period, the Art curriculum has introduce genre painting, so I'm pleased. (Still, my son is enrolled in a local nonprofit program that offers awesome art classes for home schooled children. He's made a Medieval castle , and he's now studying Japanese art -- making and painting a traditional tea bowl. The program incorporates music, books and other teachings. Very thematic, and not just project-oriented.)

In addition, I was glad to see that the K-12 program did not shy away from teaching about Muslims and Islam. As long as I see balance, I'm ok.

[mzmolly]

216. I use Core Knowledge which is the foundation for K12.

But I've heard many positive things from lots of liberal homeschoolers on the K12 curriculum. Thankfully ED Hirsch is a dem/liberal and he founded Core Knowledge, so I guess that explains the great curriculum?

:hi:

[kath]

139. VERY good article posted on Medscape this week: What Is Attention-Deficit

Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)?

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522190?src=mp

Abstract:
Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is described as the most common neurobehavioral condition of childhood. We raise the concern that ADHD is not a disease per se but rather a group of symptoms representing a final common behavioral pathway for a gamut of emotional, psychological, and/or learning problems. Increasing numbers of children, especially boys, are diagnosed with ADHD and treated with stimulant medications according to a simplified approach. Methodical review of the literature, however, raised concerning issues. "Core" ADHD symptoms of inattentiveness, hyperactivity and impulsivity are not unique to ADHD. Rates of "comorbid" psychiatric and learning problems, including depression and anxiety, range from 12 to 60%, with significant symptom overlap with ADHD, difficulties in diagnosis, and evidence-based treatment methods that do not include stimulant medications. No neuropsychologic test result is pathognomic for ADHD, and structural and functional neuroimaging studies have not identified a unique etiology for ADHD. No genetic marker has been consistently identified, and heritability studies are confounded by familial environmental factors. The validity of the Conners' Rating Scale-Revised has been seriously questioned, and parent and teacher "ratings" of school children are frequently discrepant, suggesting that use of subjective informant data via scale or interview does not form an objective basis for diagnosis of ADHD. Empiric diagnostic trials of stimulant medication that produce a behavioral response have been shown not to distinguish between children with and without "ADHD." In summary, the working dogma that ADHD is a disease or neurobehavioral condition does not at this time hold up to scrutiny of evidence. Thorough evaluation of symptomatic children should be individualized, and include assessment of educational, psychologic, psychiatric, and family needs.

<snip>
Conclusion:
In conclusion, after careful review of the evidence available, it is not obvious that ADHD is either a disease or a neurobehavioral condition. ADHD is a collection of symptoms, namely, inattention, impulsivity, and overactivity, that overlaps with other major and minor mental health conditions. No diagnostic test confirms the diagnosis of ADHD, and no investigative study has identified an etiology for ADHD. Screening tools and diagnostic criteria are not validated. Although the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines encourage primary care providers to diagnose and treat this condition, few providers will be able to identify or appropriately manage the multiple and significant comorbid disorders associated with the core symptoms called ADHD. There are extraordinary societal and financial pressures that lead to the diagnosis of ADHD and the use of stimulant medications in school-aged children with behavioral difficulties. These include (1) inadequate availability and funding of both mental health services and educational testing resources, (2) a change in 1991 that led to the inclusion of ADHD as a reimbursable diagnosis for educational disability services under the Individuals with Disabilities Educational Act, (3) a strong marketing effort by the pharmaceutical industry for use of stimulant medications (eg, the funding of Children with Attention Deficit Disorder , a parent support group for ADHD), and (4) economic pressures on families for both parents to work longer hours, leaving less time for approaches that require "talking therapy," making a "quick fix" involving medication and "med checks" more desirable.

Every child deserves to be cared for as an individual. Prudent and thoughtful evaluation of symptoms, including educational, psychiatric, or psychologic, and family assessment begin the process of understanding the individual child's difficulties and needs and of deciding which interventions will be most helpful to the child. Children deserve our "best shot" even in the face of resource scarcity, not a "one size fits all" approach. Certainly, many practitioners might disagree with this minority viewpoint, but the care of children can only benefit, one hopes, from transparent dialogue about challenging clinical problems.



Read the whole article.

[mzmolly]

143. The link is broken, but it looks very interesting.

:hi:

[kath]

147. Try this link:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522190

[kath]

161. This link should work (from Google cache) - it looks like otherwise

the article is only available to Medscape subscribers (you can subscribe for free))

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:5VUnadrbM9cJ:www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522190%3Frss+Furman+ADHD&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

If the link doesn't work because the URL is so long, try googling Furman ADHD - the title of the article "what is attention deficit..." should come up near the top of the page with a Medscape URL.

[derby378]

170. Been on Ritalin for over five years with no ill effects

If you can find an effective non-medication treatment for your ADHD child, by all means, run with it.

ADHD, however, is a neurologic or neuropsychiatric syndrome with what appears to be a genetic component found in the 5' UTR of the human genome. The kicker is that primates such as gorillas also appear to be susceptible to their own version of ADHD, which a corresponding genetic trigger very similar to ours.

I will, however, concede that an alternative argument is that ADHD should be considered a radical shift in human-primate evolution. Should ADHD adults be encouraged to seek focus-driven jobs such as trackers, hunters, etc.? That's one angle to chase if you want.

[unc70]

178. Beware the anti-Ritalin talking points -- another example

I was formally diagnosed with add/adhd over 10 years ago in my late 40's. I was aware that my behavior growing up had classic symptoms -- on a typical 20 question screening test, I have 16 strong and 2 moderate and only 2 questions that don't apply. Until then, I had assumed that I had mostly "grown out" of ADD. Not likely!

My family wondered if I would ever start to talk, and then if I would ever stop. Being smart and very, very quick, I could easily complete school work, tests, etc. before I became too bored. To my teacher mother's dismay, I was so disruptive in class that my desk was away from my classmates. At least one of my siblings is also ADD, and he and I plus another had speech therapy because we had what was then called "lazy speech". I was not good at sports, my physical movements being jerky. By high school, I was developing a variety of coping behavior -- not sure they quite qualify as "skills". People with ADD often have occupations that help mask the differences in their behavior. You have your own company, or work in a field with strange hours (computers, locksmith, ...), or you work third shift or keep changing majors or go to graduate school forever.

College for me in the late 60's was another challenge for my poor mother. I got a great education, a bit offbeat, but I always had a lot of incompletes hanging around (like F's until I completed them). The May 1970 anti-war strike following Kent State, Jackson State was a fitting "last" semester my senior year. (I eventually completed the incompletes and graduated (computers and psychology).)

Like many adults with ADD, I own my own company (as do both brothers). To complete a development project, I can still work through the night, crash at 06:00, get up at 9:30, and be back at work at 10:00 to begin another 18 hour day. And love showing off the results. (In this kind of mode, I will take little, if any Ritalin.) On the down side, I have difficulty completing boring tasks such as paperwork, reports, cleaning my office where my filing system tends toward "heaps". My lack of focus can try the patience of anyone. Having one's mind rapidly free associating with much of it being verbalized tends to annoy and exhaust friends, lovers, and family. While I have difficulty doing rote memorization, you would not believe the amount of seemingly random facts I apparently know. Nor my ability to perceive relationships among them that are not linear.

In short, my world is not black and white or even shades of grey. It is a rainbow.

I suspect that many of the most-active DUers have similar stories.

Now to the drugs. Stimulants have modest affects on me. I don't drink coffee, but lots of classic Coke. I am able to drink a 12oz can and go to bed and be asleep in 5-10 minutes. I typically sleep about 5 hours a night, and then I crash and sleep most of a whole day every week or two.

Ritalin/methylphenidate works reasonably well for me once the dosages were adjusted upward. I need a larger dose than does a typical 60 pound child, the dose washes out after about 4 hours, and unlike the warnings, I can take 15 or 20 mg well after 5:00pm without affecting my sleep schedule.

The biggest difference in my behavior when I'm taking Ritalin is that I am more "fluid" -- in my speech, in my body motions, in my maintaining a reasonable level of feedback to other people in conversation, and a more-relaxed composure with more listening and less talking. Stressful situations, particularly unstructured ones such as cocktail parties or business receptions, can bring out some of my worst traits. With Ritalin, I can be more in control of myself and my actions, and I am much more effective in business and generally more pleasant to be around.

Spend a couple of days around me, with and without medication, and you will never doubt that ADD is real and that medication often works.

Yes, behavior modification techniques can help. But outside the lab, a major problem with them without medication is that someone with ADD is probably unaware of just how they are behaving and don't realize they should be using the techniques. Remembering to take ones medication is typical ADD behavior; you are being bombarded with so many stimuli that you have trouble ignoring that you are unable to step back, organize your thoughts, and take actions. While I regularly use meditation and relaxation techniques, they alone are not enough.

Some food allergies can cause some of the same symptoms as ADD, but if changing foods eliminates the symptoms, you are dealing with something other than ADD. And be very suspect of a lot of the diet cures everything approaches. We now know that antibiotics cure most stomach ulcers, not bland diets and moralizing about alcohol and other contributing causes. We strongly suspect that strep throat may trigger autoimmune responses in the brain stem which in turn cause Tourettes. Rheumatic fever can cause heart damage via a similar mechanism.

A lot of the anti-drug, anti-psychiatry/psychology groups and research are heavily funded by Scientology. Through organizations without obvious connections to Hubbard, et al, they appear as legitimate organizations. Starting in California, they formed and used groups that appear to be community groups opposed to teenage drug use to recruit new members. And just as the "religious right" uses a variety of tools -- textbook selection, vouchers, evolution v ID debate, charter schools, home schooling -- to prevent their children and yours from being exposed to facts that might conflict with their beliefs, the Scientologists have co-opted the debate among other segments of these same groups. For example, if you already have strong doubts regarding institutions for public education, then you might be more-likely to believe the anti-Ritalin, anti-artificial whatever solutions often promoted on homeschooling sites. Just be aware that behind a grassroots, homespun, all-natural, common-sense, people-empowering, anti-big pharma, anti-AMA, almost-secret cure, there is probably a highly coordinated, well-financed marketing campaign involved. At DU, most of us have no trouble recognizing talking points being used on Fox News; we must apply the same scrutiny in other areas.

Well, I have just hyper-focused while writing this. Time to get 4 or 5 hours sleep.

[mzmolly]

183. I appreciate your post, however I take issue with the following:

For example, if you already have strong doubts regarding institutions for public education, then you might be more-likely to believe the anti-Ritalin, anti-artificial whatever solutions often promoted on homeschooling sites. Just be aware that behind a grassroots, homespun, all-natural, common-sense, people-empowering, anti-big pharma, anti-AMA, almost-secret cure, there is probably a highly coordinated, well-financed marketing campaign involved. At DU, most of us have no trouble recognizing talking points being used on Fox News; we must apply the same scrutiny in other areas

I have to disagree strongly, many of the "alternative medicine" websites don't appear very well organized at all. To suggest scientology is at the root of any one/thing that scrutinizes "big pharma/corporations" or a cookie cutter approach to education/human beings is ridiculous.

Applicable quote from wikpedia that I found earlier today: The drug industry, according to critics, often cites links to the Church of Scientology in order to discredit its opponents. I would have to agree with this assertion.

Further, are you suggesting that big-pharma doesn't have a highly coordinated, well financed marketing campaign? The fact that people continually bring up "scientology" in every discussion questioning big pharma should indicate the answer to THAT question.

Indeed, we must apply scrutiny as well as common sense. Who has what to gain in this debate? Does the church of scientology - provided they are at the root of anything that questions corporate drug pushing - make money off people NOT taking drugs? Or, do drug companies profit from people taking drugs?

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[unc70]

203. It's not just Scientology

Thanks for the welcome, although I have been lurking since near the beginning of DU.

My point was that it was not JUST big drug companies with lots of marketing money and effort, but it could also be what might appear to be some small activist group.

My problems with Scientology began when they tried to shut down the internet with spam and with lawsuits claiming copyright infringement which was opposed by EFF, and running technical battles fought by those of us on the frontlines of USENET/internet, pre www. They started internet companies just to be able to spam. More about that somewhere else.

They have also been very active in promoting home schooling through various front companies and affiliates, going back at least to the early 1970's. A couple of simple "googles" and you will hardly believe the web of connections you find. The BFEE and various Bush scandals is the only other example I can think of with as pervasive a presence (and the two intersect at a number of really interesting places, often in Florida).

Breggin does not appear now to be associated with Scientology, but he is still a self-promoting quack often working with people like Sean Hannity in their attacks on the public schools -- see http://www.quackwatch.org and similar discussions. Breggin is always out with another sensational book after whatever recent disaster (e.g. Columbine).

I prefer places like The Peoples Pharmacy where I trust Joe and Terry to provide a balance of viewpoints, with an emphasis on facts.

end of rant

[mzmolly]

210. quackwatch is questionable as well, depending upon who you ask.

As for Breggin, he is one of many people who have legitimate concerns about the dx of ADHD.

Also, I find it odd that quackwatch is considered a such a trusted resource here? The guy writes opinion pieces basically. Also, he claims to he a "shrink" but was never certified?

Barrett lets the “Stephen Barrett M.D,” logo, and the bio that describes him as a “retired Psychiatrist,” do his work for him to SOUND AUTHORITATIVE on any subject. In fact, last year Barrett was dis-qualified as an “expert witness” in a case in New York when it was discovered that although he claims to have “been a Psychiatrist for 35 years” he NEVER passed the requirements to be admitted to the Board of Psychiatry, and hence was never “Board Certified.” Hmmm?....

MDs do not rate automatic “expert” status just because they are MDs. There are official steps that must be taken (like Board Certification) to be acknowledged as an expert. As far as I know, Stephen Barrett has NO educational training in any medical specialty that might be remotely labeled “Alternative Medicine” - therefore, I do not believe he is qualified to advise, criticize, or comment on it.

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/
http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/obfuscator.htm

As you can see, anyone can be slandered/questioned on the internet. I'M NOT ENDORSING THAT WEBSITE OR IT'S CONTENT, BUT am pointing out what's good for the goose ...

Also, I have looked at the information for diagnosing ADHD myself - I consider the criteria to be very gray personally. I don't think active kids/bored kids/kids who can't sit still/kids who forget ect. are anything but typical kids. I've said all along that I would not dismiss parents who's children have ADHD as I have not walked in their shoes, but certainly one can see why the dx criteria might be a concern/abused? Certainly one can see where much of the information is subjective?

As for pharmacists, they are trained to dispense drugs. Color me unimpressed with their so called objective view point. Though, I did have one pharmacist suggest one can buy Niacin to control cholesterol? Perhaps the Scientologists got to him? ;)

As for homeschooling, I do so myself, but it's got nothing to do with Scientology. I am not a Scientologist and I don't subscribe to their belief system. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning drug companies/corporations and/or the public school system for that matter.

Peace to ya.

[HuckleB]

211. Please find other sources than Breggin.

At least Quackwatch catches itself, as your post notes. Breggin does not, and he seldom offers much beyond anecdotes. He is far more dangerous than many of the people he attacks.

[mzmolly]

213. There are numerous sources. David Keirsey for example.

More about Mr. Keirsey for those interested:

http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/pcmfl05/FSkeirsey.shtml

Dr. David Keirsey is a clinical psychologist who worked for public schools for 20 years as a corrective interventionist, and followed this with 11 years training therapists and pathologists (California State University) in the art of changing dysfunctional behavior in children and adults.

In a nutshell he feels that ADHD is really about temperament:

Certain kinds of children are interested neither in pleasing certain kinds of teachers nor in doing their assignments. Most of these children are similar in temperament, and very different from their classmates. Most often they are Plato's “Artisans” (Aristotle's “Hedonics”)—concrete in perception and impulsive in action, ever on the lookout for fun things to do in the here and now. With this sort of temperament it is not surprising that most schoolwork is unappealing to them. They, far more than other kinds of temperament, are prone to ignore or forget the order to do their assigned work. This is disinterest in the teacher's agenda, not inability to comply with it, and disinterest can hardly be taken as evidence of brain dysfunction. The problem is really a clash between two kinds of temperament: those who value opportunities to have fun and those who value schedules for getting work done.

...

He goes on to note:

There's nothing wrong with these children. Their inborn temperament prevents these concrete, fun loving, and impulsive children from adapting to the school. Some day in the not so distant future the school may come to realize that not all children can be scheduled and routinized, that children, like adults, are fundamentally different in this regard. Perhaps then the school might adapt itself to those children that do not fit its curriculum or its methods of instruction. Neither special education nor experimental narcotherapy is the way to treat children who disobey orders to get to work. After all, it isn't so much that these children can't work as it is that they don't want to work.

http://keirsey.com/addhoax.html

Again, it is NOT my desire to debate ADHD as I feel that there are legit issues, but on the other hand I do feel that given the current diagnostic criteria, there are many kids who are likely lumped into a category of ADHD without merit.

[HuckleB]

214. "Feels" is, of course, good for dinner conversation.

Not so good for clinical decision making.

And, yes, the biggest mistake made in diagnosis is that few GPs, who make most diagnoses, have the time to do the full investigation necessary, so they cannot or do not rule out all possible causes of the behaviors in question. I cannot tell you how many kids I have worked with over the years who were diagnosed with ADHD, who actually had attentional issues that were symptoms of anxiety and/or depression that was not diagnosed. Once they anxiety and/or depression was treated, sometimes with medication and always with therapy, those attentional issues suddenly fell to the background. And this is only one avenue that is not explored. Unfortunately, these avenues and issues are seldom explored by the critics, who are more interested in getting people up in arms and selling books than in looking at the full totality of what's going on.

[mzmolly]

215. I would not debate anything you have had to say on this.

OCD, for example, is one neurological issue that can be mistaken for ADHD. However, I would also guess that many kids who appear to have ADHD simply have a different "temperament" and have since birth? No depression, anxiety, OCD etc. Just plain old active/gifted/intelligent/interested kids. I think our society is to "cookie cutter" oriented and does not appreciate/celebrate/accommodate "certain" differences in the manner it should? We also have an issue with age appropriate expectations IMHO.

Peace

[savemefromdumbya]

184. In our day kids didn't need Ritalin?

I'm afraid I'm not a fan of ritalin

[HuckleB]

193. It is overprescribed, and ADHD is overdiagnosed.

However, in the past, many of these kids were separated from their peers, sent to "special schools." Oh, and many were given caffeine to treat the hyperactivity and attention issues. So it's difficult to look to the past as a marker.

[savemefromdumbya]

197. I don't remember caffeine?

The treatment that they got was several lashes of 'the cane' in our school if they did not pay attention or were out of line! (don't agree with that method though!)

[HuckleB]

199. Indeed.

In fact, I had a friend who was given Mt. Dew regularly because it calmed him down, theoretically. The rest of us, of course, were jealous. We wanted to get hopped up.

[HuckleB]

189. Stimulants are overprescribed and ADHD overdiagnosed, to be sure.

Comparing the very questionable suicidal ideation issues in SSRIs with this is a stretch, however.

[tlsmith1963]

190. Who Committed Suicide...

because of antidepressants? Were they kids or adults? I have always heard that they have a bad effect on kids. I take antidepressants, so you have me a little worried.

Tammy

[Pavulon]

194. Kids

Studies suggested children on SSRI drugs may have higher instances of suicide.

However having seen adult friends who suffer from depression treated I think the drugs save lives.

[HuckleB]

198. No. The inference was for suicidal ideation.

And the studies are quite inconclusive.

[Yollam]

195. Just google "Prozac" and "suicide" together...

...and you should find plenty of info.

That's not to say that the antidepressants are always indicated in the deaths. Like ADHD drugs, I personally think that the antidepressants have helped a lot of people, but they are too quickly described, and patients are not always as well monitored as they should be.

Do the research and judge for yourself. If I was suffereing from severe clinical depression, and they were working well for me, I'd probably use them, but everyone is different.

My birth mother is on Prozac, and she sleeps half the day and never leaves her house, except for church, and she keeps it dark all the time. She is never up or down, just blase about everything, so in her case, I kinda wish she'd try something else...

[Pavulon]

196. Depression Kills

So you have the chicken and the egg argument.

It is hard to determine if someone kills them self because of a depression drug or because of depression.

[HuckleB]

200. Sounds like she's still depressed.

The Prozac is likely doing nothing for her at all.

[Yollam]

202. Yes. She doesn't know that I know.

I happened to see the bottle on her dresser when she was staying at my dad's house. I've only known her for 5 years and we're not super close, so I don't feel like I can really say anything to her about it. She is also a devout fundie Christian, which almost seems to be a guaranteed way to become depressed.

[malaise]

201. When one of my sister's boys was 12

his doctor said he was hyperactive and wanted to put him on Ritalin.
Thankfully I was visiting at the time and told both parents they'd do it over my dead body since he was a perfectly normal 12 year old. I asked two family friends who are doctors to give her a call and talk some sense to them. They were both listening to stupid co-workers who were allowing these 'friends of pharmaceutical companies' to destroy their children. They took our advice and let the kid enjoy his youth with lots of sports activities to burn out some energy.

The kid is now 21 and is in his final year at University. He won a scholarship and his lowest grade is B+. He had a ball at school and was very involved in student activities - basketball, the school magazine and his senior yearbook. He is one of the most well-adjusted young men I know.

I blame parents for listening to these doctors. If some of these medicines were available when we were kids, I guess all our parents would have drugged us to stupidity. What is going on is fugging madness - murder by pharmaceutical companies raking in big bucks while they destroy people.

[David Zephyr]

208. Thanks for news story, your thread and I agree with your comments, Yollam.

One doesn't have to be a Scientologist to recognize that their stand against drugging children with psychiatric drugs is mercenary and will have long time consequences...one of which makes nice little well-behaved consumers for Wal-Mart Nation.

Great article. :thumbsup:

[NVMojo]

217. I've been taking it for 15 years. My heart is fine.

[depakid]

218. Health Canada issued this warning a year ago

and they were LAMBASTED by the FDA and the so called "mainstream" media.

http://www.slate.com/id/2118314/

It's been off the Market for a year now in Canada

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=19972