If You Believe Bush Is Worse Than Hitler

[cali]

and Stalin, and you live in this country, why are you here? If you believe that American history is nothing more than a litany of horrors perpetrated on others, what's the point of participating in this country? Go ahead, flame away, but I'm tired of seeing all perspective lost to myopic hatred.

A little background: I'm a lifelong liberal, at times, deeply critical of my government. I'm not even terribly patriotic, but on a thread I was just visiting, some posters were so adament in their belief that the US has no redemptive qualities, that I felt compelled to post this.

[mattclearing]

1. link to thread?

Starting new threads to complain about other threads without linking to them is a big peeve of mine.

[cali]

19. sorry

here you go: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2443501

and it's really not just about this thread.

[yurbud]

82. Our tendency to ignore our own flaws is what made 9/11 a surprise

to most Americans.

We simply could not fathom why people in other countries would be so mad at us they would do something so cruel.

The reality is, the money of big business has almost always trumped the ideals of the American people in foreign policy.

You only have to look at a list of our military interventions after World War II, with the exception of Korea, and possibly Somalia.

If we don't take that into account, we can't fix our reputation in the world that allows terrorist groups to recruit people to do things like that.

The people criticizing want us to be that country you believe we already are. Being honest is the first step of getting from here to there.

Do your homework and read about Arbenz, Mossedegh, Allende, or even what the Bushies have tried to do the elected president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez.

[mikelewis]

87. And some can't believe...

that it was people from another country who attacked us on 9/11. Not me of course, I'm not one of those crazies. I firmly believe terrorists could take over hundreds of people with razor blades and destroy 4 buildings with only 3 airplanes. I believe our Air Force simply forgot to respond to an attack on our country and I believe the President just sat in that schoolroom in Florida because he was collecting his thoughts. Of course I believe this, I'd have to be crazy not to.

[yurbud]

95. that complicates the whole discussion, doesn't it?

Because if you throw that into the equation honestly, you lose people who might otherwise be paying attention.

Somehow, we have to break the big lie on that, or the Bushies or their descendants will be able to do that shit at will.

[Richardo]

2. Recommended.

Thanks, cali. :thumbsup:

[HereSince1628]

3. Why assume you must run from a tyrant?

I am pretty sure there are other options and yet the hope that some of those options can bear fruit.

[seemslikeadream]

4. The U.S. has redemtive qualities, it's the BFEE

that must be taken on, right here not from some remote island.

[meganmonkey]

5. Why don't you address it to the individuals who say these things

rather than posting ambiguous flamebait?

[Name removed]

Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

14. Why? Because this

we're-worse-than-everyone-else mentality is not exactly rare around here.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. It's the difference between Democrats

and Republicans, in my opinion.

Dems tend to catastrophize, worry about everything, gnash teeth, wring hands and generally experience a certain amount of hopelessness. And it shows on here a LOT.

Republicans, on the other hand, can look at the goriest, most awful things and grin and say we're still winning. Total disconnect. Fingers-in-the-ears crazy.

[hfojvt]

104. The last chapter of

Rush Limbaugh's book "Don't worry. We are winning" or something like that.

Excess worry also seems like a total disconnect. When we have threads about possible future conspiracies, then that seems like an awful lot of worry, but the years since 2000 have been dark times for Democrats and for our country too.

But the media hypes this too. After all 9/11 was worse than the holocaust to hear them talk about it. We have grown up in a culture of worried sensationalism. Republicans, many of them, are just as worried about Hollywood and the vast left-wing-secular-humanist-conspiracy, and they have their "end times" future worries (or hopes).

[meganmonkey]

26. And accusatory threads like this, which leave no room for

real dialogue about the issue, don't help at all, IMO.

Peace.

[BushOut06]

42. I believe the OP did do just that

By saying "You people who..." It's probably a lot easier than writing down everyone's names who has said they want to leave the country - plus it woudln't all fit in the subject line.

There's an old Texas saying that someone is "all talk and no hat" - I think many people on here like to say stuff like that, but have no intentions of ever doing so. For those that follow up on their actions and do leave, I have no problem with that. And for those who are determined to see this through, I have no problem with that either.

[meganmonkey]

46. I didn't mean that

'Calling people out' by name is against the DU rules.

What I was implying was that if the OP truly wants to understand these people, he/she may be better off replying directly to people who post these offending statements and trying to have a dialogue with them about it.

Posting a thread like this seldom leads to a productive conversation, in my experience.

Peace.

[atreides1]

6. Because running away is wrong

The US does have redemptive qualities, it's just that for the past 5 years we haven't seen much of those qualities.

Is Bush worse then Hitler, perhaps, but I think that he's more like a Roman Emperor.

Besides, real Americans don't run, they stand and fight!!!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

28. Yup.

All those jews who ran away from Hitler? They were wrong! I'm glad you're here to pass judgement on them.

[FSogol]

7. Example? n/t

[MuseRider]

8. The US has redemptive

possibilities if we would just hold to half of what we think we are.

I am staying for the fight. Too lazy and stubborn to leave my place of birth and family to the like of them.

[stepnw1f]

9. Bush is a Nazi

How ya like them apples? Seriously... most are venting! Let them... and don't take it personal.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

10. He may not be worse, but he's the closest to him ! We are here,

still in America, because we all love our country. We hate what BFEE has done to it. We long for the America that once was.

Despising an evil dictator (B**) and loving America are NOT mutually exclusive !

[JuniperLea]

17. He is worse!

He is blatantly borrowing from Hitler's playbook in an age where we should be able to remember history in order NOT to repeat it.

[JuniperLea]

11. Love it or leave it, eh?

It is very, very patriotic to hold The Constitution above all else. What this administration has done to our country is deplorable. You can't judge people on well-placed hatred. There are very good reasons to hate W and what he has done to this country. This country is a sham under his regime. What's not to hate? It is very, very patriotic to want our country back. We love it the way it was meant to be and hate it the way W has bastardized it. What's the problem?

Love it or leave it? That is the most putrid of all RW spewings. I can't believe I've read it here.

I have no idea what was said in the thread you meantion, but your post on it's own doesn't sway me from hating W and what he has done to MY country.

[Sammy Pepys]

15. You can't judge people on well-placed hatred?

Why not?

[JuniperLea]

25. It is human nature to hate those who wrong you

W has not only wronged us all here in the US, but he has spread his poison worldwide. We have lost all credibility in the world because of his lies and his almighty self-appointed powers to ignore national and international law. That's like blaming people for hating the Devil himself.

[Greyhound]

20. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was...

This is the problem isn't it?
BTW shrub is not like Hitler, Hitler was successful at what he did while shrub is an abject failure.

[JuniperLea]

34. Hitler succeeded I think, because there was no history on which to judge

We know the history now and see it repeating.

Hitler was a success only to a point. Otherwise he would have never acted out that infamous bunker scene;)

[Greyhound]

54. I meant that HItler was successful in making things much better

for the average German, thereby gaining huge popular support for his real agenda. Also, don't forget if he'd just stopped after Poland for a couple of years to build his forces and technological advantages, he would have won it all. As opposed to shrub, Hitler was, literally, a self-made man.

[JuniperLea]

66. Very true

Do you think his ego was a factor in the rush to go beyond Poland? I would think Iran is an ego factor with Bush. Korea seems more likely a threat to me, yet they remain "under the radar", so to speak.

[Greyhound]

86. Well now, we can't piss off the Chinese, now can we?

[Art_from_Ark]

116. Hitler's invasion of Poland

is what got Britain and France involved in the war, so Hitler would not have had the luxury of waiting for a couple of years to rebuild his forces.

[RazzleDazzle]

51. If Hitler was a failure, why did the rest of the world have to take him

out?

Same with Bush. And don't imagine that most of those "failures" of Bush's are UNintentional. They're not. He and his cabal are out to destroy this country, make it into a 3rd World country whose resources can be further raped and pillaged, just like other 3rd World countries.

What a ridiculous argument.

[Greyhound]

56. ? I said Hitler was successful, and he was, whereas shrub has failed at

everything he has ever done himself. The cabal is not his, he is merely the face to blame, so we won't look to closely at what the real leaders are doing.

[cali]

62. You

are living in your own reality. I never said love it or leave it. Reading is fundamental. So is comprehension. I didn't address the administration. I don't mind people hating bush. Although I try to stay away from hate, he enrages me to the point where it's probably dishonest of me to say I don't hate him. I do what I can to get our country back. None of this is germaine to what I originally posted, but I do think it's absurd to claim that bushco is worse than hitler.

[JuniperLea]

72. Clean writing is what it's all about...

If you cannot write properly then people tend to get the wrong impression. I work for a PR firm so my knowledge of reading and writing is my bread and butter. You should know to whom you are talking and issuing insults before making absurd observations.

You asked why people were still here if they hated it. There are two things about this statement. You can be passive or agressive... you were passive but the message remains the same. You question why people stay in a country they hate. That carries with it the same exact meaning of the more aggressive phrase, "Love it or leave it".

Hate doesn't mean forever. Sometimes it takes people hating something in order for them to make a change. I hate what America has come to represent, and you should too. It's disgusting.

I think you are cruising for argument's sake, and nit-picking. Not to mention being unnecessarily insulting.

Edited to say that including myself, about a dozen people here got the same message from your post... yet we are all in need of remedial reading classes and you are perfect. Lovely.

[philosophie_en_rose]

94. Ah, the sanctimony. . .

If you can puff up your fantasy of America to judge others and make yourself feel superior -- I hope you're happy with yourself.

What is the purpose of this thread? If you believe that the US has redeeming qualities, why not start a thread about those qualities? Why question whether American citizens that hate their government and expect better from their country leave?

The answer is obvious. Starting a thread about the very issues you claim to be important would not support your sanctimonious attempt to feel that you are the real American.

You are the one with the reading problem. You see, it is comprehension to understand the implications of your post. (love it or leave it = why are you here?) If you can't understand that, then I suspect you should work on your reading skills prior to criticizing others.

[lukasahero]

12. Because I believe Hitler could have been stopped by courageous people. eom

[Katherine Brengle]

21. I agree, although at the same time, the people were drawn into it

slowly, as we are being drawn.

But I think that history has a lot to teach us in this situation--we've seen it happen, it has been analyzed and studied and we've been able to draw conclusions about how fascism happens.

We have more information than the German people (and the rest of Europe and the United States) had in the 1930s.

Therefore, it stands to reason that we have an opportunity to stop this from continuing.

[lukasahero]

23. "we have an opportunity to stop this" And that is why I stay. :)

It is also my greatest hope.

[Katherine Brengle]

93. a-f*ing-men!

[Goldensilence]

13. lol

sounds like a conservative talking point. If you don't like the US thennnn git out!

[cali]

29. Not at all.

I was saying that if this country is so awful, it's history so terrible, why stay and have anything to do with it? As I stated, I'm not particularly patriotic. Most patriotism seems to to be more like nationalism, so I'm not suggesting you need to swoon every time you see a flag. I'm not saying love it or leave it, more like, if you hate it, why stay?

[Dhalgren]

41. Because I don't view my country as a child views its parent.

When my country is wrong, I'll stand up and say it. When my country does something reprehensible, I'll stand up and say it. It doesn't mean that I hate my country or that I think it is so evil as to be beyond redemption, but it does mean that I can look squarely at US history and see where the country has been wrong and acted wrong - even criminally. This idea that we have to say good things about our country or shut up is just not an acceptable way for an adult to relate to his or her country.

[RazzleDazzle]

55. Because it's my home. I'm an AMERICAN

We don't hate our country as much as hate its current government's ACTIONS (and maybe some of its so-called "leaders").

And then there's this little bit of confusion:

Most patriotism seems to to be more like nationalism, so I'm not suggesting you need to swoon every time you see a flag.

Swooning over the flag en masse -- and requiring others to do the same -- is more like nationalism, NOT patriotism.

But you may be right: Love it or leave it is more nationalism than patriotism. (And far more rightwing than left, as already mentioned.)

I believe it is the DUTY of "good citizens" to question their government, criticize it, and do what's necessary to make it better. You can't make something BETTER if you don't identify (and criticize!) what's bad or deficient or lacking.

Why does it bother you so much? Really -- what difference does it make to you? Is it that you think everyone should be equally pro-U.S. without questioning? Are you concerned that the criticism = hatred with no underlying devotion? I'd really like to know: what's it to ya, specifically?

[xynthee]

59. Moving to another country isn't cheap!

Even if I wanted to abandon MY country to the crackpots, I wouldn't be able to do so because it would cost thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. Are you willing to donate to a fund that will help those who want to leave the country?

[Goldensilence]

98. really?

I'm not saying love it or leave it, more like, if you hate it, why stay?

Sounds more like a toned down version of love it or leave it. More like an agressive question taking no more consideration into the many varibles as to why people who are unhappy with this country at this moment, embarrased and horrified at some of our darker parts of our history, or reasons why some are forced to stay because of their financial situation. It comes off as agressive and ignorant.

[Katherine Brengle]

16. I don't think Bush is worse than Hitler at all...

However, there are striking similarities in their leadership and policy decisions.

I think what people are trying to stress when they make the comparison is that it is easy to slip into fascism.

We often forget how young our country really is. We haven't been through the things that older nations have--we've lived under one system of government for a long time, and most nations that exist today have been through many stages of development.

We jumped into the deep end of the pool very quickly, and it is more than possible that we have no yet arrived at our final destination.

[file83]

102. Hitler was WAY smarter than Bush. No comparison. Although...

...it is our duty to become cautious of unilateral decision makers, nationalistic war mongers, pro-corporate empirialists, etc....

For if we don't keep a watchful eye and remain vigilant, by the time Bush becomes as bad as Hitler, it'll be too fucking late to speak up. And with todays technological capabilities and international power, any "Hitler like" leader of this country could become much worse than Hitler ever could have dreamed of.

[Angry Girl]

18. A lot of people can't AFFORD to move, let alone leave

And please let's not start with standard freeper "If you don't like it here, why don't you move to Uzbekistan or Burma?"

The disintegration of our democracy happened at a stunning speed. The Bush coup of 2000 and its reassertion in 2004 was nothing more than shocking for most of us. We are still reeling from astonishment that our journalists and elected politicians have all failed to protect us.

But we are slowly coming to terms with the fact that, like Germans before the Third Reich, we have handed over our democracy to a bunch of blatant criminals.

Unfortunately, our economy is being gutted at the same time and a war is being waged on the poor and middle class. As a result many of us are jobless, even homeless, and cannot afford to leave the country.... YET.

But mark my words: I will live in a country that is run by humane and decent people if it takes me the rest of my life to get there. No, I'm not asking for politicians who aren't con artists - they all are to some extent. But I do ask that they not be criminals and mass murderers of the first order (and proud of it, to boot).

[wtbymark]

24. I believe that this country has redeeming qualities

but I believe monkey shitfaced assfucker and his 'cabal' are just as bad, if not worse than the Nazis (actually Mussolini was more a corporatist). In fact prescott and his "Fellowship" were directly connected to the Nazis, so it's just a continuation. Nixon was just a continuation of that political philosophy. So here we have the same criminals running the country. My relatives moved here in 1722; if I ever have a daughter, she's an instant DAR. Maybe there will be another revolution that my blood line can partake in, in any case, I'm not going anywhere - and I'm an asshole. Have a wonderful day

[Little Star]

27. Being new at genealogy

I can document 6 generations back from myself in the usa. I was born here. I am an american born and bred. I will not leave and I will continue to speak out about things in our history and things today that do not support our freedoms. My ancestors died for the right for me to do so and I resent being told to leave my beloved America. Sorry if this sounds harsh but your post telling me and others to leave seemed harsh to me. Peace. I really mean that word peace. You have just as much right as I to voice your opinions. Again, peace.

[cali]

35. This is so interesting to me.

I ask why stay, and you and others read it as my telling people to leave. I just find that kind of stuff fascinating. And thanks for your wishes of peace. Right back at you.

[JuniperLea]

40. Read your own OP, my dear...

And tell me how we could read anything else.

Peace is what we all want. You cannot have peace when your country is led by a despot. Despot = Bad Peace = Good You can't have both; they are mutually exclusive.

[cali]

48. You really aren't reading what I wrote

if you're still insisting that I said people who don't love this country should leave it. Nor did I say anything about bushco, other than that I didn't think he was worse than hitler. Gasp, I'm even going to go so far as to say I don't find the comparison either relevant or helpful. How shocking of me not to hew to the pary line. Hey, I don't buy my ideas wholesale.

[JuniperLea]

52. You asked why those people are here

That is what you said...

You should read some history books if you don't understand the comparison. And do it soon, before they issue you your brown suit.

[cali]

64. Nothing amuses me more

than being called a nascent nazi. (gotta love that alliteration). Hate to tell you this, but I'm rather well read in this area. No expert to be sure, but no slouch either. You realize, don't you, how those who have to resort to calling people nazis, freepers, etc., automatically lose the argument?

[JuniperLea]

67. Who, exactly, is calling you names

Let alone a nascent nazi?

[JuniperLea]

69. In case you are reading far more into that post than you should

"They" issue "you"... and the rest of us.

[Little Star]

43. After I pushed the send button I realized that I should have

said why I participate and it is still exactly why I participate. You however, have caught me misinterpretation of your exact words. My argument still stands-----that is why I participate. We are all going to have to be experts on word parsing in order to get our message right. I really mean do peace. You have your think and reason and I have mine. Hopefully, that is what America stands for, our right to disagree. That is why I still participate. Is that not my right?

[JuniperLea]

37. Spoken like a true patriot!

My family on my mother's side are Mayflower decendents... Mary Chilton was my 11th great-grandmother. Legend has it she was the first European female to set foot on what is now America. I'll be dammed if I'll leave!

[Little Star]

44. Hear, Hear n/t

[Double T]

30. bush has created some of the 'worst of times' since his reign of terror...

began. I am hoping that the rethuglicans days of ruling this country are growing short and they will be replaced by a vast majority of voters in upcoming elections. bush is the worst president this country will ever know; hopefully!!!

[rman]

31. You seems to presume no significant horrors were perpetrated

by the US govt.

Otoh, the notion of "redemptive qualities" seems relevant only if there something to be redeemed...

If significant horrors were perpetrated, then what you call hatred is in fact well founded criticism. Any "redemptive qualities" don't exactly compensate for the horrors.

How many RW dictators has the US supported in favor of it's own interests?
How many left-leaning democracies has the US helped overthrow in pursuit of those same interests?
It is the over-riding theme of the history of US foreign policy.

I think the reason why people stay is to try and make it better.

[JAbuchan08]

32. I don't think I've EVER heard anyone say Bush is worse than Hitler

of a kind with Hitler, certainly, enamored of the same militarism absolutely. Convinced of his own nations absolute superiority and infallibility, definitely. Capable - if left unchecked - of great inhumanity and callous disregard for human life, without a doubt.
But worse? I've never heard that argument made here or anywhere else.

On edit: I stand corrected, however; it seems to be the opinion of an isolated few. I do think a majority here know fascism when they see it though.

[BushOut06]

33. You can't just pick up and leave

It's not that easy, and many countries have even tougher immigration laws than we do. Plus there is the financial aspect - how many people can honestly afford to do that?

[Just Me]

36. I believe it's a HUGE mistake to characterize a country by its,...

,...leadership, especially one as criminal and corrupt as this one. There are people who have redeeming qualities no matter what country they live in. It's those people whose qualities must be, at least, a part of the characterization of their nation since they are the ones who ARE the country, along with those whose qualities are,...poor.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. A lot of Jews thought Germany had redeeming values and were patriots.

And, they were very proud of being Germans. And, they stuck around to fight against Hitler and Naziism. Most of them ended up dead.

All countries have a checkered history. Noble, cowardly, brutal, compassionate, generous, repressive. To believe that this country cannot fall under the spell of "patriotism" is to be naive. We have a long history of brutality and aggression. We ignore it at our risk.

[cali]

45. Aha, a wise response

and I often disagree with you, but I think you're spot on about all countries having a checkered hx, and if I may add, a checkered composition. I absolutely believe this country can fall under the spell of nationalism in the guise of patriotism. It's happened before. It'll happen again. Yes, next time it could take on even deadlier characteristics. But just as we shouldn't ignore our long hx of brutality and oppression, we should remain cognisant of the positve side of our nature and history.

Let me toss out a quote you might appreciate:

"Nationalism: A state of mind in which a man hates another's country, more than he loves his own."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Here's a couple of quotes in return.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools." - Schopenhauer

"Patriotism is the egg from which wars are born." - de Maupassant

[cali]

49. OMG

The de Maupassant quote is fantastic. thanks

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. You're quite welcome.

I don't consider myself a "patriot" in any sense of the word for the that very reason. "Patriotism" relies on the idea that "my country" is superior for the simple reason that I was born here or live here. It's an idea that is readily used by politicians or "leaders" to prompt the populace into hatred and violence against the "others". Which is all too evident preceding and during wars. The "Japs". The "Krauts". The "Jews". The "Muslims". The "Gooks". etc, etc, ad nauseum. Which inevitably leads to the ultimate dehumanization of the "target".

[JuniperLea]

79. Guy de Maupassant rules!

I own nearly all of his works. What an amazing mind.

[Bluerthanblue]

96. One HUGE difference between Germany under Hitler

and the US under bush, is that Germany was 'ripe' for a LEADER- someone who would revitalize the country that had been devistated by WWI, that was crumbling under war debts to other countries, and that was on the brink of imploding.
My father fought in WWII- and he lectured me about the 'fault' that we americans, and all the other countries bore for leaving Germany in the dire straits it was post WWI- That does not EXCUSE what Hitler did- but it does explain why people followed him like sheep-
What excuse do we in america have? the only excuse I can give you is plain old apathy, and disassociation. "We" don't really give a fuck- "I don't care if they wire-tap, I have nothing to hide"- "I don't mind the patriot act, we need to be safe". "We have to stop the terrorists, before they strike again". "They aren't human, they have no respect for life". I could go on and on- but it makes me sick-

And, I TOO, come from decendents of the Mayflower- I have DAR relatives, and I've been fed the 'america love it or leave it' line since I protested the Vietnam War as an adolescent- and my reply? If you really LOVE someone, you aren't willing to sit silent and watch them do things that not only are self destructive, but against everything they claim to embrace, embody, and believe- If you aren't willing to confront those you love, you DON'T love them- Apathy, and walking out on those who behave in appaling ways is what a LACK of love, or caring is all about-

I would leave this country if I believed there was absolutely no hope- But that would mean having money, and somewhere to go to. And I haven't got either- so its here or the grave, and for now at least, I'm here, and clinging to hope with fraying threads....

Recognizing the faults and hyprocricy of this country, and acknowledging them, is the LOVING thing to do- Pretending 'we' are just the sweetest little community to come down the pike, is what will destroy us- It is what IS destroying us.

Hitler didn't hide behind the notion that he was doing what he was doing for the good of the entire world- He was doing what he did because of his own perverted agenda- The Arian Race- {which even he would not be elegible for) And his conquest of the world- Bush pretends he's doing what he does for the good of the world- and he's a liar and a murderer of the most despicible kind. He smiles while he kills- and invokes God's blessing on his carnage-

[napi21]

39. No, but a lot of the things he and his neocons are doing is how

Hitler gained all his power. I really don't think Shrub will EVER be as bad as Hitler or Stalin, but we as Americans must pay attention to what IS happening, and pull the plug on the power grab! If we don't do that NOW, ShrubCo COULD get as bad as the totalarian regeime in Germany so many years ago!

[Nye Bevan]

50. Sometimes here there is a kind of Bush-hatred "arms race"

where posters compete to prove their liberal credentials by saying worse and worse things about the chimp. Bush is Stalin! He's Hitler! He's the anti-Christ!

Personally I like to follow Godwin's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
There is a tradition of protocol in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.

[Cleita]

53. I'm surprised at you!

You are saying the same thing the freepers said about the Katrina victims, "Why didn't they leave when they were told to?"

There are as many reasons not to leave as there are to leave. That's a broad brush you are painting with. Because we criticize a rogue government that has taken over our legitimate government doesn't make the criticizers unpatriotic. In fact, they are probably more patriotic because they care about what is happening to us.

[cali]

60. arghhh (tears hair out in frustration)

You are saying the same thing the freepers said about the Katrina victims, "Why didn't they leave when they were told to?"

Again, I'm not telling anyone to leave.



There are as many reasons not to leave as there are to leave. That's a broad brush you are painting with. Because we criticize a rogue government that has taken over our legitimate government doesn't make the criticizers unpatriotic. In fact, they are probably more patriotic because they care about what is happening to us.

Nothing wrong with criticizing the gov't. I do it all the time. I go to D.C. to march (hate it, but do it), write letters, contact my reps, etc. I never mentioned any of this. In fact, the last sign I carried said dissent is as American as apple pie. It's amazing the projections that so many posters have cast upon my OP.

[JuniperLea]

68. You are not directly telling people to leave...

You are asking why they stay... same deal. If you hate it so much why are you still here?

[cali]

71. More projections

(I'm being nice, and not calling you a lilar) I never said I hated it here. In fact, I live in Vermont. I love it here. And asking someone why they stay is NOT the same thing as telling someone to leave. Look, we could do this endlessly, but you've shown a willilngness to be less than truthful that makes it unsatisfying to discuss anything with you.

[JuniperLea]

73. Surely you mean I am unwilling to go along with your

pretzel logic. Agreed.


I'm not asking you why you stay here, I'm reiterating your statement. Jeez. And you have the nerve to insult people on their reading? Including professional writers! You are laughable in your critique and your assumptions.

[info being]

58. I'm not "here". Do I have permission to say it?

[endarkenment]

61. Perhaps you can provide some links.

While there have been many posts comparing the current tyranny to those of various other dictatorships and tyrannies, I actually don't recall claims that this is 'worse than hitler' or 'worse than stalin'.

At the moment, without evidence that your claim is a common theme here on DU, I think you are just making shit up, tilting at windmills, inventing strawman arguments to knock down.

We have a serious, deadly serious problem: our republic has become a one party tyranny. We can deal with this problem or we can pretend it doesn't exist. Pretending it doesn't exist by, for example, making up stupid arguments to put in the mouths of those standing up and speaking out, those actually trying to deal with the reality of the situation, is not helpful.

So do you have any positive suggestions?

[Fovea]

63. I am disabled

and just bearly keeping my head above water financially.
What choice do I have?
I would like to know who would take me.

Because I think my government wants me dead.

[cali]

65. I'm sorry.

It was a rhetorical device. And though I know there are people who don't care about your predicament who are part of the gov't, there are those who fight passionately for the disabled. One of my Senators has been oft recognized by his committment to the disabled community. (Jeffords)

[Fovea]

77. I respect Jeffords

And I am not angry at you.

I am just saying that I am living a horrible nightmare, and desperately wish I could wake up back in the America I believed in and worked for.

Failing that, I wish I had dual citizenship somewhere civilized. Somewhere that wasn't figuratively waiting around to render my corpse for fat and phosphorus.

[raggedcompany]

70. I'm one of these people you're whining about and I'd gladly leave the U.S.

but I don't have the money to do it yet. I'm 31 now, and figure that by the time I'm 40 I'll have paid off all my college debt and accumulated enough wealth and experience to be welcomed into a modern, civlized country of my choosing. Spain, Sweden, New Zealand, etc. Eventually, I will go. I'm sure you'll enjoy the fascist boot to the teeth so much better without me, too.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[converted_democrat]

78. You have alot of nerve..

:puke:

[JuniperLea]

81. No shit

Not only does this moran lack remedial reading and writing skills, but he/she cannot keep a solid thought going long enough to come to a valid conclusion. Jeez. Already has a home out of the country, eh? Good.

[raggedcompany]

83. cali: "I've got a home out of the country"

No wonder you're whining about people comparing Bush to Hitler: You've got somewhere to go. Easy for you to say "relax with the Hitler comparison," from the security of your escape route.

The comparison between Bush and Hitler is valid, sorry you don't like it. But maybe if you complain and whine about it some more, you'll get the attention you so obviously crave. Good luck with that.

[JuniperLea]

105. voice of reason

well said! sheesh!

[Skidmore]

74. Horse puke.

I take it you are satisfied with Bushworld. Enjoy.

[converted_democrat]

75. I don't think Bush is as bad as Hitler..

yet.. Give him time..

[Hubert Flottz]

80. I think in the end, he could, very well turn out to be worse.

He's working on it. Hitler had more courage and brains than Bush has and was a far better speaker! Bush has more weapons and resources than Hitler had. If Bush had come before Hitler and been in the position of power he's in now, I think he would have no doubt been worse! The world's people know what to look out for now....Or Do We?

Thinking...this can never happen to me, is delusional.

[Spinoza]

84. One thing for sure,

there are one hell of a lot of immigrants, legal and illegal, coming into the U.S. every year, or trying their damndest to get into the U.S., who must be pretty fucking stupid if Bush is even close to being as bad as Hitler. I guess they are just too ignorant to know what they are doing. Someone should warn them.

[robbedvoter]

85. Is this a" love it or live it" thingy?

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Those Who Believe The US Has No Redemptive Qualities Are So Filled With

hatred that they are no better than that which they rally against.

That is how I feel.

[bpilgrim]

90. those who believe that is an issue

often call in to rush & his clones :eyes:

peace

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. Here. Let Me Make The Concept More Simplistic For You.

I said they are no better than they are, not that they are them. Just that they suffer the same flaw. Get it now I hope? You seemed to imply my words were saying that they are actually right wingers. Well let it be known that the context shows that is not what my words implied, but that they instead implied that the extremism and unrealistic perceptions are comparable, regardless of beliefs.

And are you feeling ok, you look a bit green. :rofl:

[Heewack]

106. I think some here may not realize just how bad Hitler was.

It's not even comparable.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

108. With All Due Respect, That Reply Had Nothing To Do With My Post.

[rman]

101. what are the redemptive qualities and what needs to be redeemed?

[philosophie_en_rose]

109. I notice how this is the question that they refuse to answer.

Another indication of the true purpose of the thread.

[rman]

111. indeed, quite telling. nt

[bpilgrim]

89. love it or leave it

baby

peace

[philosophie_en_rose]

91. I stay; because I believe that things can be better.

Run from a fight? Sorry. Only cowardly chickenhawks run from a fight.

To address the original post: I don't think that US has nothing to be proud of. However, it just re-elected (selected/ whatever) a brutal dictator that is a proven liar, a racist, and all-around evil jackass. Believing that a country has a long way to go towards redemption for its mistakes is hardly a reason to leave. It's a reason to fight. There are a lot of good aspects of the US, but none of them eclipse the wrong that has happened.

To the cali's later posts: If you ask someone why they stay, it is exactly the same as asking why they don't leave. If your intention is to somehow celebrate the good things in the US, why not a thread about those things. Hell, why not just list them? No. You clearly have issues and this is clearly a "give-me-attention-I-want-to-feel-good-about-myself" thread. Must suck to be you.

Overall, I think the implications of your post are pretty damned racist and myopic. Do you not understand that there are a lot of terrible things that the US has avoided addressing? Do you not understand that there are people in this country that are brutalized every damned day? Do you not understand that whether atrocities happen in other countries has nothing to do with whether it is okay for those things to have happened in this country? Do you not understand that one can be deeply disappointed and even disgusted with this country, yet strive to make it better?

To answer the question that you think is not answered by the above commentary, I stay because I believe that this country can do better. I don't stay in this country to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

You see, I don't have a baby love for my country. I have adult love. To end my participation in this silly thread, I'll leave you with a quote by Al Franken:

Liberals like me love America. We just love America in a different way. You love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow. Love takes attention and work and is the best thing in the world. That's why we liberals want America to do the right thing. We know America is the hope of the world, and we love it and want it to do well. We also want it to do good.

[Dunedain]

97. I believe

that if Bush were as brutal and ruthless as Hitler and Stalin, I would not be here.
I would be in an http://www.deathcamps.org/">Aktion Reinhard Camp, or maybe buried in some farm field somewhere,
shot in the head on orders from Beria.
I agree with your statement about perspective. Sometimes it can be in short supply.

[Peter Frank]

99. You Don't Understand...

The underpinnings of our republic are being consciously eroded. The Hitler machine grew by increments for many years before it was able to seize absolute power.

The difference between America and totalitarian nations is supposed to be that Americans actually run our country.

Do you feel that this is still the case -- with the obscene amounts of money (foreign & domestic) in play in D.C.?

[nolabels]

100. Arsenic, strychnine and cyanide

The analogous comparisons are inane in themselves unless you understand no tyrant likes to imitate another tyrant (except the wanta-be tyrant * himself)

[Swamp Rat]

103. You might think Bushler is worse than Hitler if you were from

New Orleans.

[BooScout]

107. I'm not there.....

I freaking left. I don't necessarily think he's worse than Hitler or Stalin but he tries his best to come as close as he can.

Ya know what I got sick of? People like you who think I should get the hell out because I hate what America has become. Frankly you sound like a lot of conservatives I know.

[radio4progressives]

110. I'm still here because this MY country , and it is MY constitution too

that was taken and demolished, and it is up to everyone of us to fight back and RESTORE our democracy, RESTORE our Constitution, and as importantly, it is up to us, to denounce and oust this despot for the sake of the entire world.

What ever the United States is involved in around the globe, as Americans we have a DUTY to protect the world from the harm done to it by despot regimes in Washington DC.

If the United States government was some sort of "small power" - that might be another matter - but the fact is, there are few places this country doesn't impose it's own will onto. So it's no longer an "option" to choose, whether to leave or stay.

but really, you do understand that much don't you?

[rman]

112. did you get an answer to your question?

[BiggJawn]

113. Oh, but Bush ISN'T "Worse than Hitler"...

After all, Il Douche hasn't killed his 6,000,000...




YET!

Don't think the idea of getting shed of this nation of mouthbreathing Thickburger-eating Bubbas hasn't crossed my mind, BUT....

Who'd take me?

[fujiyama]

114. If you believe Bush is worse than Hitler or Stalin

you have little sense of historical perspective.

However, I do find it justifiable to make analogies between certain actions of the GOP to Nazis. Their desire for secrecy, authoritarianism, and all out fascist tendancies are reminiscent of various despicable regimes of the past.

But I am somewhat confused about the point of this thread. There are a few that hate everything about America, but most here do love the country and want to improve it.

But I understand the frustration with the hand wringing. Far left wing fatalism is sometimes very similar to the rapture crowd fundies. Though usually the concerns of the left are actually rooted in some reality, unlike the religious nutcase raprure crowd.

[Hippo_Tron]

115. If Bush had the speaking abilities of Adolf Hitler, we'd be in trouble

If he had that kind of power, America would still believe that that there were WMD's in Iraq.

[upi402]

117. death by gun, knife, or spoon

nobody seriously thinks that OP.
Do they really?

Relax my friend, people just criticize their government. It stands out starkly these days, that's all.