I Just Heard Edwards Say

[lligrd]

that we have already done plenty for Iraq, got rid of Saddam and given American lives and money. I know he meant that as an excuse to leave but it sounded rather callous to me. I don't recall Iraqis asking us for a damn thing. Aside from the ex-Iraqis who wanted us to take out Saddam so that they could have the power in Iraq without risking their own lives, that is. I am quite sure that 90% of Iraqis wish Saddam was still in power after our debacle.

[mmonk]

1. He's just trying to get people on board with the idea

we need to leave.

[lligrd]

4. I Agree With Leaving

I just don't think we need to pretend we did anything worthwhile there.

[mmonk]

35. He said to some of us in Raleigh this year

that it was a mistake and that he made a mistake in authorizing the president to use force in the matter. He is for us to start pulling out now. He thinks our reputation in the world is very damaged and that we should seek to restore any credibility we lost and basically (in my words) quit being a bully and engage the world in a positive manner.

[WiseButAngrySara]

2. I bet you are right about the 90% ...the country is much worse off

currently than it was under SH IMO.

[BayCityProgressive]

5. I agree

the new meme for all the Dems who voted for the war is to say "they need to take care of themselves, we already did enough for them". HELLO they never marched demanding that we bomb them! Give me a break. Talk about blaming the victim.

[WiseButAngrySara]

26. It is a tragedy beyond comprehension. ...n/t

[Contrite]

3. It's not callous. Durbin basically said the same thing.

Not those same words, but the meaning was clear: enough is enough. Take credit for the victories of getting rid of Saddam and starting another government, and clear out.

Edwards should have said, "we have done enough TO the Iraqi people". That would be truthful.

[lligrd]

10. Yes To Would Have Worked

But I don't understand what victories we can take credit for.

[Contrite]

18. Neither do I.

I think Durbin is trying some reverse psychology. Good luck with that and Dimson, huh?

[silverweb]

6. Yes, but...

...we haven't freed Iraq from all that oil yet. :sarcasm:


Edwards wants us out. So do I.

[BayCityProgressive]

7. He didn't want us

out when he voted to send us in. Just saying...

[lligrd]

11. Very True

And I haven't forgotten that either.

[iamjoy]

13. But That's Not Why He Voted For IWR

He voted for it on the basis that Sadaam Hussein was an imminent threat and Dubya needed the muscle to deal with it.

I agree it sounds callous, but saying we've accomplished our original mission in Iraq and using that as the reason to leave effectively cuts off Dubya's Kool-Aid drinkers who believe withdrawing is a sign of defeat that will "embolden our enemies." Everytime we talk about the 3,000 Americans dead, we are feeding this argument. Even if you talk about all the Iraqis killed in attacks, it doesn't match what Saddam did.

No, we need to approach this from a position of strength. Our military did the job we sent them to do. Mission Accomplished, remember?

[BayCityProgressive]

20. Saddam

wasnt a grave threat and any idiot could have seen that. If he seriously thought that, he shouldn't be running for presidnet, he should be lobbying for Halliburton or listening to Rush right now.

[iamjoy]

25. Saddam Was Bluffing

He wanted the world to think he had WMDs to scare his neighbors.
He never thought we'd actually invade his country and remove him from power - the first President Bush was smart enough to recognize the folly in this. Like father, like son, eh - Hussein couldn't fathom the apple falling so far from the tree.

As for Graham knowing better than to invade Iraq when Edward didn't - well, I'll play poker with the latter, not the former. Just because Edwards might be a poor poker player (not recognizing a bluff) doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good President.

[Pithy Cherub]

21. Edwards co-sponsored the IWR

and the Democratic chairman of the Intelligence Commitee voted NO while the one term senator on the same committee decided an aye was the way to go. Mission Accomplished II is suffering from the Pottery Barn Doctrine.

[Contrite]

40. Well put. n/t

[MODemocrat]

8. We shouldn't have been there in the first place

Saddam could have been taken out with a lone assassin; but we started this war, and we owed them. We
shouldn't be digging ourselves in deeper as Bush chooses to do. I think that's what Edwards is trying to get across. It could have been said differently, so as not to glorify taking out one madman, by
killing over three thousand of our military, and maiming thousands more. This bloodshed needs to stop.
Bush loves the power he has; and being belligerent is one of his favorite powers.
Bush is a tyrant. :evilfrown: :evilfrown: :evilfrown: :evilfrown:

[Truthiness Inspector]

12. Just curious

Would you have supported assassinating a head of state?

[autorank]

9. I don't understand that line of thinking.

It's really weak, particularly since Edwards supported the enabling of this war by voting for
el Jeffe's stupid resolution. I like Edwards' focus on poverty and inclusion but we don't need
another president who is ill-educated on basic facts..likek this war was a fraud perpetrated
intentionally.

[Lex]

16. So I take it you didn't vote for Kerry in 2004?

:shrug:


___________________________

[BayCityProgressive]

23. I unfortunately did

and was literally sick to my stomach. I will never betray my conscious like that again.

[lligrd]

24. That Is A Very Silly Surmise eom

eom

[Lex]

27. No, it logically follows. Kerry voted for the IWR.

I assume that if people are excluding those who voted for the IWR, then they wouldn't have voted for Kerry in 2004.

How is that silly surmise?

:shrug:

______________________

[lligrd]

28. Just Because We Don't Like Something They Did

Doesn't mean we are going to vote for complete evil instead. You don't always get the choices you would like to have but any vote not for Kerry in the last election was a vote for evil.

[autorank]

42. I voted for him, I gave him money, and I worked very hard for him.

I did that because there were many things I liked about him and also because I believed then as I did in 2000 that W is an unmitigated disaster. To not support Kerry because he voted for an authorization that should never have been invoked would have been irresponsible.

I don't support people based on political purity. I worked a great deal in my states 2005 Governor's race. There were a number of differences I had with Tim Kaine, although I liked him overall. It didn't matter though because the alternative was a Falwell/Pat Robertson clone. I don't regret doing that and I don't take any grief form some of my friends for having done so.

When there are two choices you make the best choice and when the best choice, i.e., Kerry, is hugely superior to the alternative, you work as hard as you can and give as much as you are able.

So, to answer the question, your take is wrong.

[lligrd]

17. Exactly, I Am Really Trying To Like Edwards

but he is making it difficult.

[autorank]

43. There's a huge gap between most politicians and the public.

In the summer I put a thread up about how DU thinking on election issues, fraud and lousy machines, matched up with the views of the general public. That's true today also but the politicians don't want to throw down on that issue, any more than they're willing to say that they screwed up and the war is based on lies. It does make it harder to support people who just don't get it.

But, we could face worse dilemmas;)

[WinkyDink]

14. THEY DIDN'T ASK US TO INVADE. I HATE this new theme!!!!!!!

[lligrd]

22. That Is It! The "THEME"

is exactly what I hate. Thanks.

[Contrite]

30. More like an "excuse" to leave.

Albeit a weak one.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

15. Look, we are culpable in extremis...

That said, I was reading a story last night, about what is happening in Iraq. The situation there is being used to exploit long-standing, simmering feuds between religios factions, tribes and just plain people.

Of course, the administration, in its ignorance and blinded by exceptionalism, let it all come to this. But that is the present lay of the land: we have become enablers for violence, by our mere presence there.

Hell, in the story, one Sunni guy was even cursing the al Qaida fighters, saying that they started a lot of this by teeing off on the Shia, then abandoning Iraq.

It's a mess and I doubt we can fix it.

[lligrd]

19. I Am In Complete Agreement

Somethings are not fixable - and all the kings horses and all the kings men...

[puebloknot]

29. This has been bothering me, too.

I'm for withdrawal, and reparations.

To say it's time for Iraqis to take responsibility for their own lives now is absurd. They can't exactly step up to the plate when they have lost most or all of their family members, have no electricity, no medical help.

Mr. Bush's Iraqi "democracy" is a farce. That has to happen organically, and it can't just pop up from under the rubble we've created.

We went in and rebuilt Germany under the Marshall Plan, even though I guess you could say they were the prime players in that WWII "Axis of Evil."

Dennis Kucinich says it: U.S. out, U.N. in; rebuilding of Iraq at our expense. The "our" should be the contractors who made a killing, however, and not the hardworking citizens of America (assuming they can get jobs).

End of rant for now. Thanks for posting this.

[lligrd]

32. Dennis Has It Right

And he has from the beginning. I hate any in-fighting between Dems right now because we really need to be together to end this adminstration quickly berfore they finish their plan and create an even bigger mess than they already have but I just really wish we wouldn't glorify a dang thing they have done.

[puebloknot]

37. "The truth shall set you free."

Party loyalty is to be desired, as long as it doesn't become a lock-step refusal to face up to reality.

We can differ on whether someone who voted for the Iraq war is worthy of our votes now, but to shut down dialog about this or any other subject is not *democratic*!

The right wing is together always, and that certainly leads to getting things done. It's just that it's the wrong things, in my view.

[BayCityProgressive]

33. It is similar to Stalin

Stalin wanted "Socialism from above" and Bush wants "Corporate Democracy from Above". It just doesnt work. A govenrment system must be created by the people of a country not outsiders who know nothing about the country.

[many a good man]

31. Poll-tested phraseology

And it worked. The public and the news media ate up Durbin's response. It resonates with American's who don't want to believe we did such an awful thing. I think it sucks. But hey, it's expedient.

[BayCityProgressive]

34. it's horrible

I have lost a lot of respect for my fellow Americans. Most Americans cannot even comprehend how it would be to live as an Iraqi.

[aein]

36. Edwards is a sloganeer, a lightweight (IMHO)

any man with principle would say that we haven't given IRAQ anything except pain and misery

[Nite Owl]

38. I agree with you

and it seems to be what the dems have agreed to say. The Iraqi's should not be blamed for what we did to them and their country. I am feeling that the thinking is that that we need to leave and just saying the war was wrong and we (America) made a huge mistake in everything we have done leaves out that 'middle' that they are always trying to appease. They don't want to admit that the left, the anti war wing was right all along so this sort of softens it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

39. Edwards was big on the Iraq invasion.

Edwards got lucky in trial law. It doesn't necessarily mean he has any wisdom.

[Clarkie1]

41. It's not about how much we've "given" Iraq; it's about our responsibility for what we have done. nt