This stumps every Iraq war supporter I talk to

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

"We MUST win the war in Iraq. To leave now and fail will only embolden the terrorists! WHY do you want so badly for the US to lose the war?"

I answer very calmly, "I understand your viewpoint. I do. It's not that I want the US to lose this war. What I don't understand is what winning the war looks like. Can you explain to me what winning this war means? How will we know we've won?"

Nobody can answer that.

So I ask you all, what would winning the war in Iraq look like?

[Xipe Totec]

1. Strange Game

The only way to win, is not to play.

- War Games

[screembloodymurder]

9. I love that quote!

So true and so appropriate.

[sweetpotato]

2. I always ask, too. No one can tell me what "win" looks like.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

5. See, I have a theory about this

I believe that "winning" the war at this point, only means that we get out of there without giving the impression that we lost. Period.

From Bush's speech: "I have made it clear to the Prime Minister and Iraq's other leaders that America's commitment is not open-ended. If the Iraqi government does not follow through on its promises, it will lose the support of the American people — and it will lose the support of the Iraqi people."

So I can see a speech coming down the road where Bush would say, "The Iraqi government has not followed through with its promises and the time has come for the US to leave".

I see this happening, oh, say, about a year before the next presidential election, with happy troops coming home right up until election day. Bush will be touted as the guy who told the Iraqi government to put up or shut up. It's all about saving face. That's what winning means. That's all it means. Oh yeah, and how much money can be made in the meantime to support his corporatists elite friends.

Bush doesn't give a flying fig what happens in between, how many of our military get killed, how many Iraqis get killed. He doesn't care. Only the end game matters to him, and how he is seen.

[GreenZoneLT]

3. It's not that hard

Not that I'm a war supporter (I supported the invasion and have since come to regret it, but I'm not convinced it couldn't have been successful if not conducted by Reaganite boneheads).

Success is pretty easy to define, if unattainable. Success is Iraq without explosions, where locals and foreigners alike can shop at the local market without being blown up by a car bomb, shot by snipers or kidnapped. One with a working government and police force, with normal levels of employment and business activity for a place with so many resources and educated people. Basically the conditions currently seen in Erbil and much of Kurdistan, spread over the whole country. Heck, throw in a couple flying unicorns while we're blue-skying.

What we're going to settle for, if we can even get there (which I doubt), is an Iraq wracked by civil war, but with a viable central government that's mostly winning the conflict. Something like Colombia or Pakistan. High unemployment, massive corruption, a military coup looming on the horizon, but still a working country with improvement possible.

Failure is a failed state like Somalia, with a lawless, chaotic Al Qaeda safe haven in Anbar, Diyala and Salah ad Din, and Baghdad looking like Beirut in '83, Iran the de facto ruler of southern Iraq, and Turkey threatening Kurdistan with invasion. I'd say there's at least a 50 percent chance of that being where Iraq is in 2010. Ah, make that 70 percent, because Bush will be in charge until 2009.

None of these scenarios can involve U.S. troops being based in Iraq. Nobody but the most nutjob neocon thinks that's still a possibility.

[leesa]

13. So, what they had before we went there.

[sammythecat]

20. I like your definition of success.

Concise, accurate, and easy to understand. I agree it's unattainable any time soon. It certainly won't happen in the next two years, no matter what is done.

I liked your descriptions of what we'll settle for, and what failure would look like. Thanks. I'm saving these descriptions because they make perfect sense to me.

[Ian David]

4. Bush and his friends know what Victory for them looks like...

[AZCat]

12. Where's K.I.S.S.?

I seem to remember they were in this picture (in full garb, makeup and all).

[librechik]

16. exactly--like charismatic christians, they can't reason,only repeat magical formulas

and pray real hard.

In fact, logic and reason are the enemy of that mindset.

We needtotreat them like the sick individuals they are, not let them distract us with their talking points nonsense.

[sendero]

6. To "win" this war..

... would be to end factional rivalrys that are as old as time. It's not going to happen, you know it, I know it, the president knows it, his advisors know it, the generals know it - so it makes you wonder, just why do we continue there.

[KarenS]

7. We will "win" when they declare it "won".

Catapulting the propaganda, is what they do best.

[KharmaTrain]

8. Paranoids Can Never Win...

I've asked the same question of wingnuts and Repugnicans and get that same "deer in the headlights" look. That's because these people don't want a win...there's no such possibility. These are the morons who grew up with the "reds under the bed" fear that the Commies were gonna march down the streets and all those phobias were transfered to A-rabs and "Islamofacists" (WTF??).

These goons need a boogie man, a strawman and a scapegoat...this enables them to be sanctimonious asshats and avoid having to assume any responsibility for their words or deeds. These people are scared shit and live in a world of black and white...since they're limited in their abilities to critically analyize and have a realistic view of the world.

Short of Iraq being turned into a parking lot, these goons will not be satisfied...and then they'll be off to fight the next boogieman.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

11. ahhh

Yours is probably the most likely answer.

[dogday]

10. Mission Accomplished nt

[WinkyDink]

14. When we OWN THE OIL. What's not to get about that??

[spinbaby]

15. Easy

We will have won when our puppet government takes control and makes Iraq safe for exploitation.

[Lasher]

17. Having a clear objective is the most important principle of warfare

If you don't have an objective you can't achieve it. This 'objective du jour' that Junior keeps running out is really a symptom of not having an objective - Or perhaps concealing his true goals.

Summary of Reasons for Iraq War: The two fundamental reasons are (1) Oil, and (2) Israel. But the mechanical reasons are (1) the neocon lobby, (2) Cheney as VP, and (3) Bush's desire to prove himself and best his father. The neocons discuss mainly on the needs of Israel (the WMD they were truly concerned about were Scuds aimed at Israel), but Cheney and Rumsfeld may have ben more focused on oil.

Good brief analysis here: http://zfacts.com/p/775.html

[genie_weenie]

18. Hannity always says

a stable Iraq, in which the Iraqis care about defending "their" country and government and which stands shoulder to shoulder with America.

This is his standard, when he attempts to pin people into his false dichtomy of "Do you want America to win in Iraq? Yes or No?"

[Virginia Dare]

19. A sustainable puppet government under control of the U.S...n/t

[riderinthestorm]

21. Since I live in fundieville, my question is always "Who would Jesus bomb?"

They can't answer that one and they always flounder. If they try to wiggle around it with some kind of bullshit moral and ethical points about "freeing the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator" or the hunt for WMD or whatever bullshit they want to bring up, I just brutally ask them if they believe themselves to be Christian, and if they are then they should strive to follow Jesus' commands and I repeat my question: who would Jesus bomb.

It never fails in my neck of the woods (and I don't have to listen to the Bushbots' non-answers that they've been fed via the talking heads).

[GeorgeGist]

22. To be honest with you...

it isn't our war to win. But it's quite easy to see what the Iraqi's losing it looks like.

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. Invading Iraq, embolden the terrorists, who weren't in Iraq before

the chimp decided to launch his shock and awe on a Country that didn't attack us. What's so hard to understand about that? chimp has put a bullseye on this Country and his brain dead kool-aid drinking moran supporters don't get that.

So it's already too late for the bs, Too leave now and fail will only embolden the terrorists! Both have already occurred.

[spanone]

24. It's an illegal, pre-emptive war based on lies...there is no winning.