It seems we punish the innocent in the cruelest way possible when we kill their loved ones. This is the #1 reason I am personally against the death penalty. Yes, Saddam committed heinous crimes, but he was also somebody's dad.
Saddam and daughter
Saddam with daughter Raghad
Saddam with daughter
Saddam and daughter Rana
"The two daughters of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein were glued to TV screens in Amman until his execution at dawn Saturday, while the defence team went on high alert, sources close to the team said.
Saddam's eldest daughter Raghad had to be sedated to contain her tension as she spent the night switching channel to another, one of the sources added.
They had to put her to sleep in the morning. She was under tremendous stress, he noted."
And someday we'll have to deal with that, one way or another. The Republicans would like us to forget it, but the reality is, that the next terrorist attack on U.S. soil may be due to that unvengeance factor.
19. While focusing on victims of Saddam is proper ...
Creating MORE victims seem to dishonor their memories ...
A permanent, unrevocable life sentence would have avoided extending victimhood itself, and I dont mean just Saddam's daughters, but in every case where someone wrongly causes death, and society demands punishment ....
Let the punishment be honorable to the very notion of morality, and cease to extend the wrongful act of killing into the act of punishment itself .... in all cases ....
"Saddam received two of his half brothers in his cell on Thursday and was said to have given them his personal belongings and a copy of his will.
Najeeb al-Nauimi, a member of Saddam's legal team, said he too requested a final meeting with the deposed Iraqi leader. "His daughter in Amman was crying, she said 'Take me with you,'" al-Nauimi said late Friday. But he said their request was rejected."
26. that's what got me. SHE wasn't the one who committed human rights crimes.
they couldn't let her spend a half-hour with him? he could tell her he loved her, and she could respond with the same? yeah, I KNOW he was bloody and brutal. I just don't know why they had to punish her as well.
112. If you're familiar with any of America's jails or prisons
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 01:05 PM by demobabe
They basically work the same way. There's the criminal, and then there is the people around the criminal that end up getting punished as a result of the criminal, and it pretty inhumane ways, too.
I have firsthand experience with not being able to contact a loved one after he went into jail. Worst thing was, it was a civil contempt issue, and he arranged with the court the time he would serve. He turned himself in at the required time, and they held him in a waiting cell for 18 hours. Then they finally check him in and put him in the absolute worst part of the jail, with violent murderers, guys with nazi symbols tattooed on their forheads, an insane guy who tried to flush everything in his cell down a toilet (causing the whole jail to flood with fecal water), and an insane guy in a "suicide dress" sobbing non-stop for days. On the walls were fine crafted murals made from shit, and the prisoners howled inhuman satanical sounds.
Every day I was supposed to be able to talk to him, but his ID didn't work, so finally on the fifth day, he got through to leave a 30 second message that he was still alive. Before that, I was completely frantic, because he told me he'd call, and getting information was impossible. I had to send a lawyer in to actually fix the situation. After a week, I did manage to talk to him, but was limited to 15 minutes and it cost me $20 for basically a local phonecall.
I guess here I should mention that he was a DUer, a vocal one at that, and the lawyer used printed copies of web pages just like you're reading right now to influence the Southern Christian Coalition installed judge (that got money from Jack Abramoff) to color her opinion. It worked.
That court in the South was a kangaroo court as well; what we did to Saddam Hussein's trial and lynching are just an extension of our own "Southern Hospitality."
"I have never been so angry. We invaded another country that was no threat, and now for some reason known only to a few...we have executed their leader. (Yes, I know they said the Iraqis did...but it was our idea...we are boss of them).
Our TV has disintegrated to the point where it is either planning to show this execution, or at the very least boasting of it with much pride."
..."We invaded a country with educated, kind and thoughtful people. It is beyond my ability to comprehend what we have done.
More about Riverbend at the link, and about a father losing his handsome son. There is nothing right about what we did, and I don't care if people disagree.
8. Course, Lord Knows He Killed A Hell Of A Lot Of Daddies. Can't Lose Sight Of That.
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 02:00 AM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
I do hear what you're saying though, and I do feel sympathy towards his children who were innocent of the crimes and may feel suffering due to this. But that suffering is due to their father's choice of being a barbaric evil piece of shit, so he is ultimately to blame for their sorrow; not anyone else.
44. Does It Matter In The Context Of This OP? Absolutely Not. You're Just Deflecting.
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 03:13 AM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
There's nothing more weak within arguments on here then when someone has to compare anything and everything to * as if that's always relevant to the focus of the topic. Just so you are aware, some things can in fact stand on their own merits without having to be weighed against some bush barometer. It's such childish thinking in my opinion when arguments can only be debated in a "bbbut bush did it!" or "but bush is even worse!" type manner. It does nothing for the legitimacy of debate whatsoever, and is in my opinion nothing more than an ineffective cop-out.
The context of this OP has absolutely nothing to do with bush. Why you have to turn it into some pseudo competition between the two, or inject some other completely different bush argument into it altogether, is perplexing. Like I said, some things can stand on their own merits without having to be compared against some non-existent bush barometer.
In this case, the OP seems to be seeking sympathy for Saddam because he was a daddy. I say fuck that. He was an evil piece of shit who murdered countless numbers of daddies, and the suffering his daughters are feeling are no one else's fault but his own for choosing to be such an evil piece of filth. Therefore, it is absolutely irrelevant, ineffective, and non-contextual to drag bush into the argument since there is nothing that comparison can contribute to an argument of whether there should be sympathy for saddam the daddy, or instead nothing but contempt for his brutal actions.
My brother came within 36 hours of execution after 20 years on death row.
The period leading up to the execution was nearly unbearable. I don't know that my mother would have survived it. Regardless what you think of the crimes, or the person who (may have) committed them, that person being executed is someone's parent, sibling, or child.
Deliberately, and with premeditation, taking the life of one's parent, sibling, or child does not bring back the loved ones previously lost - and in most instances does not even provide closure. All it does is create additional grieving parents, siblings, and children.
There are plenty of things that deserve our attention and compassion. The death of an authoritarian asshole is certainly not one of them. I understand it's being draped here in his daughter's grief, but frankly- I'm just not moved.
Every day, people are executed by the sorts of systems and authoritarian ideals that Hussein spent his life building and serving. So, for once, the cook was tossed into his own oven. Pardon me if I don't weep.
Iran war, Kuwait war, Kurds, Shi'a. Nope, Saddam actually killed more people than Bush. What's more bush got "permission" via the Iraqi War Resolution for his foray into mass death. And that included votes from many dems.
Jesus fucking christ. Of course I said nothing remotely like that, and it's beyond pathetic to feebly attempt to make it look like I did. I corrected someone's inaccurate assertion, and that makes me OK with bush's crimes?
56. Why yes, Daddy Dearest did do that very thing.He was a monster -- but he was also "our" monster once
Lest we forget our country's part in this travesty.
I'm no longer exactly in favor of the death penalty, but I shed no tears for Saddam, any more than I would for Pol Pot or Josef Stalin.
I reserve my grief for my country and the Iraqis, that my nation has fallen on such dark days and under such leadership as the Neocons.
Saddam Hussein should have gone to the international tribunals, and his crimes should have been investigated in full. Instead, to cap the illegal invasion of Iraq, we have an incomplete trial -- complete with assassinated judges and lawyers -- and send Saddam's secrets to his grave with him.
Clearly those like TexasGal are democrats for different reasons than those such as myself and the original poster.
The original poster was only pointing out that as reprehensible and evil as Saddam was, he was also somebody's loved one (as difficult as that can be for many to understand).
Yes, Saddam has committed some attrocious acts, and for that he deserves to be removed from society FOREVER, however that is just as easily accomplished through lifelong confinement. I'm sure his daughters and anyone else who might have some kind of affection for that man would much rather he be kept behind bars for the rest of his natural life.
and I am and always have been profoundly against the death penalty. Furthermore, I was disgusted by the show trial and circus lynching of Saddam Hussein, but painting his as someone's daddy is a little bit much. Yes, he was someone's daddy, but as others pointed out, he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of daddies- and mommies and children. Yet I have rarely if ever, seen any sympathy expressed on DU for those people. That you choose to sympathize with his pampered daughters, going so far as to post touchingly sentimental pictures of him with his daughters, portraying him so tenderly, without any apparent concern of the hundred of thousand he is responsible for killing, is beyond my ken. And just in case you've forgotted, Saddam killed the husbands of his 2 daughters after vowing that he wouldn't.
even more ridiculous than the "it really wasn't Saddam, it was a body double" thread. And it's actually more revolting by a long shot. The title is a goddamn classic of absurdity and poor, poor thinking skills.
I mourn the death of American principles. The only defense we have of our actions is: "Might makes Right". Which is the basic principle Saddam governed by, so, the only difference between Saddam and GWB is GWB "won" and Saddam "lost".
I think the "cosmic moral scores" of GWB and Saddam are quite comparable.
even the death of one of the world's most brutal dictators still causes pain and suffering...at least in the hearts of some...and when you realize that, we can hardly imagine the suffering of all of the innocent victims of this war.
Say what you wish, but that little public display of hanging Saddam with that monstrous noose is the most sickening media event I have ever witnessed.
Is Saddam's Hanging justice? revenge? THE FACT IS that the people MOST AFFECTED by his death are his own daughters and other family members...What exactly does this accomplish, and what right do we have to cause even more unbearable suffering?
that the show trial, the lynching, and the media circus were both repugnant and counter-productive, without writing a mawkish paean to Saddam as "Daddy". And the fact that you don't seem to extend the same kind of sympathies to his hundreds of thousands of victim, speaks volumes. Yours is a dangerous and morally untenable sentimentality.
I swear I've seen more sympathy for Saddam Hussein around here than Gerald Ford. I've wondered whether I'm the one with the skewed values. I know this is Democratic Underground, but for fuck's sake. This is Saddam Hussein we're talking about.
Things like this are why I now act the way I do in life. A lot of times when we see vengeance we only see the one person it is directed at but we are all someone's mother/daughter/father/son/cousin/aunt/uncle. When actions happen to us it happens to those around us whether they are co-workers or friends and family.
For instance,*'s lust for getting Saddam had many ripple effects and not just one effect on him. Saddam came forward and said he would gladly leave the country and go into exile but * would have none of it. * was out for blood. In *'s pissing contest we have Saddam's family who paid with tears and some with their lives. We have killed and tortured many innocents and in turn we have created many enemies. We have caused the Iraqi people to go without food, water and electricity. To keep our troops over in Iraq we have sold more of our country to another nation than we have at any other time in our history. There is an unspoken rule that we do not sell but so much of our interests so that our interests are never compromised.
At some point we ourselves will see a backlash from all that has happened. It may be another terror attack on our country or even China deciding to put an end to our economical future. Whatever happens, a lot of people will stay in their disconnect and not see that every one of us should have been in the streets rioting when * first went in for the illegal occupation of Iraq.
Some may argue that he got what he deserved and look at how many lives he has taken. They do not see the big picture as they only experience the disconnect of one action to many others. I know this because not too long ago I was one of those types of people.
It all comes down to seeing how we are all connected and then believing, with all of your heart, the following phrase: Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me. If you know the connection each of us share then you know you must treat others with respect and as much kindness as you can muster. You also know your place on earth and know it is not up to you to judge when one lives or dies. You understand certain evils must be contained but it is not up to you to extinguish their life because for every action there is a truly equal reaction. (If not many reactions)
Sure, we could kill Saddam but what if we had said we would keep him imprisoned? That would stop some of our bad karma. Now we are in a situation not unlike gang violence. Saddam killed a bunch of people and so we killed him. We killed him and so many others will try to take that out on our country and/or our troops. Our troops are killed and we call for their heads on a platter. The pattern goes on and on without end.
Peace has to start somewhere and for me that means not leaving it up to other people. If I truly believe in peace on earth then I must step up and shows others what it means through my speech and deeds.
We do not spread peace by killing people. We do not get retribution by killing people. How many people here feel tons better about the world now that Saddam is gone? Is there more peace? Did the victims families truly get their justice? Why would his death be more justice than him being in solitary confinement the rest of his life? What a meager and lonely existence and how much time would he have had to possibly come to terms with his deeds and truly feel sorry? Can he feel any remorse now that he is dead? Definitely not but he might have if he were kept alive. What did we truly gain by killing him, besides shame?
In this New Year let all of us believe in peace on earth and let this wonderful fertile ground of DU be where we plant that seed and help it thrive.
"In this New Year let all of us believe in peace on earth and let this wonderful fertile ground of DU be where we plant that seed and help it thrive."
And scary too what you point out about us selling more and more of our country to another nation to keep our troops in Iraq...our grandchildren will be feeling the consequences of that in incalculable ways for many many years to come...
Let me understand the gyst of a lot of what has been said on this thread: people we like are supposed to be granted compassion and fairness, whereas people we don't like should be taken down at any cost. Regardless of law, emotion rules.
Some folks have even gone as weird as to think this thread's message is "Saddam shouldn't have been killed because he's a daddy."
The OP was opining the actual death penalty and the fallout it has for the innocents, not whether or not we should feel sorry for the criminal that committed the crime.
I think a lot of people speaking up about the whole lynch style execution of Saddam Hussein, are speaking up because they know there is something WRONG with the whole thing and are maybe trying to pinpoint exactly what. Death penalty, the kangaroo court, the treatment of his daughters, etc...
Personally, I think many unknowingly are speaking up about the general loss of empathy in humanity. When we lose empathy in our society, anything goes. At what point do you no longer count as a human being with basic civil rights? What will it take for each of us to realize that any one of us could be railroaded for someone's personal cause or advancement?
They pick Saddam to do it to because it's easy: he's a bad man. Everyone knows that. So we look the other way, averting our eyes from any injustice or intentional torture or humiliation, because we're promised to see the kind of "justice" we think we're entitled to. Saddam in a noose! Bad man gone!
This does not bode well for the furtherance of humanity.
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