please.. please.. PLEASE reframe the healthcare objective

[burythehatchet]

"Universal" care is generally meant to imply that everyone is insured. Everyone being insured is NOT a solution. Millions of us are "insured", but the insurance finance companies are raping the public with their claims practices. The horror stories are well known.

NO. What we require is Single Payer healthcare. Socialized medicine. Nothing less.

Please reframe the debate. Do not make Universal coverage the goal. Make single payer the goal. And no, Universal coverage is not a decent compromise. Allowing the insurance companies more power is only going to hurt us more.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Actually, We Want Both

We want single-payer universal healthcare. Everyone has coverage, a single entity pays. Which is exactly what Medicare is for Americans over 65 - and what most folks in other developed nations have.

[burythehatchet]

6. Single payer is genrally understood to include everyone. So you're right.

[Morgana LaFey]

45. Yeah, I'm thinking: I'll take whatever I can get

I'd rather get Universal HC than wait forever for Single Payer.

[CatWoman]

2. Happy New Year, Neeraj

:hi:

:loveya:

I know I'm off topic, but I'm finally coming out of my fog...

[burythehatchet]

7. Happy New Year's to you

:toast: Make sure you check in the Georgia forum.

[Robbien]

3. But the Democratic party is owned by insurance companies

Since insurance is one of the owners of the Democratic party, the new Democratic leaders will not get very far in challenging the current status quo.

I expect that is why they are framing it as universal coverage.

[kath]

4. Thanks! Hubby & I were discussing the EXACT same issue yesterday. "Universal coverage" is NOT

what we need. The insurance companies need to be COMPLETELY taken out of the picture. They provide nothing of value, but only function as bloodsucking parasites, sucking HUGE amounts of money out of the system.
SINGLE PAYER is absolutely the only way to go. Dammit, it works for EVERY other "1st-world" nation. It's long past time that we have it here. Our citizens deserve nothing less.

[burythehatchet]

9. Last year the CEO of United Healthcare had a compensation of $124,000,000

There is NO justification.

[kath]

14. OMFG. Bloodsuckers, fokkin' bloodsuckers. That's all the insurance

companies are, and they need to be eliminated NOW.

Think how much actual HEALTHCARE to needy people that $124 million (and the other billions and billions of dollars that the insurance companies suck out of the system) could provide!!

[burythehatchet]

17. 30%

That's the percentage of the healthcare dollar that goes to profit and administration in the private finance system. That's like saying if you make it publicly funded, you almost get an immediate 25% boost in the amount of money available for care. Mind boggling.

[RB TexLa]

22. Every health insurer I represent has said the money to be made

on people opting out of or highly supplementing single payer system will be astronomical itself. But it's nothing I see happening.

[IndyOp]

26. If we have a single-payer system as good as that in Canada ---

which Canadians LOVE -- if many Americans are dumb enough to opt out or buy supplemental policies that is fine with me. That is the ONLY way I think the health insurance companies should continue to exist.

[burythehatchet]

27. The reality is that there will always be a class based system

I don't have problem with that actually. There will always be a robust market for private healthcare. However, that should not preclude 100% of the people from having a basic preventive and primary care package. What the other side seems to ignore is that by guaranteeing this basic package of care, the costs of urgent and critical care will decrease dramatically. The ripple effects are not unimaginable, and people are starting to awaken to the problems.

[bobbolink]

35. Yes, Canadians like their system, and aren't willing to trade it in yet.

And, while USians keep using Canada as a model, it must be remembered that Canadian health care isn't the best in the world. The US could even do better, if we just wanted to. :shrug:

[Bjorn Against]

56. You make a very good point...

Critics of a single payer system like to point out the long waiting times Canadians have to go through to get treatment (of course those same critics ignore the long waiting times Americans have to go through, but lets enter make believe world for a minute and pretend there are no waiting times here).

The big flaw in their logic is that they assume the system we would adapt would be EXACTLY like Canada's. We could improve on Canada's system, there is no rule that says you have to have long waiting times and zero choice on doctors if you have single payer. We can design a system that is superior to Canada's and for the critics of single-payer to pretend otherwise is just plain dishonest (and entering back into reality again it is also dishonest for them to pretend we don't have long waiting times here now).

[laundry_queen]

59. Can I just dispel a myth here?

I'm in Canada and am in no way limited in which doctors I see other than needing a referral to a specialist. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I have much more choice than Americans who have to check which doctors are on their 'list' of coverage. I can go to any doctor in any province in Canada.
And the 'wait time' problem has been highly exaggerated. I personally have never had to wait longer for a procedure for me or my children, than any of my American friends have had to (exactly the same non-life threatening procedure, as well).
Most problems in the Canadian system have to do with our sparse population and problems with distribution and access, not wait times or limitations on choice.

[burythehatchet]

60. thanks

its good to receive a reality check from someone who knows.

[IndyOp]

33. I just found an article from Canada - resisting allowing privatizing

healthcare to any extent. Apparently the Canadian conservatives are pushing to allow the wealthy to pay for supplemental insurance policies, etcetera.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/MonitorIssues/2006/05/MonitorIssue1370/index.cfm?pa=AE5DAA5F

[RB TexLa]

34. They can still buy global medical insurance, I've sold it to Canadians

Acts as a supplement in your home country, can even assign to an individual such as a doctor, an administrator or even an admitting clerk if needed.

[Cleita]

39. Do you have a link to those compensations?

I'm missing this in my bookmarks. I have been looking for information on these compensations.

[antigop]

47. Cleita -- try this

http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2005/LIRRI3M.html?passListId=12&passYear=2005&passListType=Person&uniqueId=RI3M&datatype=Person

[Cleita]

48. So many thanks. I have it bookmarked to read.

Happy New Year!

[antigop]

49. Happy New Year to you, too! And to everyone!

May the New Year bring health care to everyone!

[burythehatchet]

51. /

http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2005/05/how-can-1248-million-year-ceo-make.html

[Cleita]

61. Thank you.

:hi:

[RB TexLa]

53. Just wondering is there "NO justification" for my commissions for

selling the insurance?

[burythehatchet]

54. Under the current system

you provide a valuable service to the company that markets and finances health plans. If the need to market healthcare was made obsolete because the system was taxpayer financed, then not so much.

[Joe Chi Minh]

5. Given the psychopathically predatory nature of corporatism, in general, and

insurance companies, in particular, the importance of this post would be difficult to overstate.

[burythehatchet]

18. I cannot wait for Michael Moore's expose of the healthcare industry

Hope it comes out soon.

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. His earlier expose of the insurance companies in the context of

smoking and lung cancer claims was brilliant!

[Rosemary2205]

8. this an important distinction

because when I use the term "universal coverage" then I am thinking every American is able to access basic medical care regardless of income. That accessing that medical care is not reliant on employment and that said medical care doesn't bankrupt or near bankrupt an individual. No one should have to choose between a roof over their head and medical care.

However, your point about the definition of "universal coverage" is really important because there are some RWers I know who think forcibly taking $4000 a year from someone on minimum wage and putting into "health savings accounts" and then confiscated by the government if it isn't used qualifies as "universal coverage".

[burythehatchet]

11. Ideally, every person regardless of station

should have completely unfettered access to preventive and primary care. Why? Because this is the least volatile layer of cost. It is most predictable and therefore more precisely financed. Above that layer, there will always be a class based system, but that would take longer to change.

[aquart]

10. Thank you for bringing up the distinction.

I have been lax in my phrasing. I won't be again.

[burythehatchet]

15. Reducing the power of the insurance companies must be a top priority n/t

[gollygee]

12. My right-wing brother is even behind socialized health care

He said he decided that health care is like fire protection. It's for emergencies (or to prevent emergencies in some cases), and one of the things our government does is prevent and deal with emergencies.

Among the groups being hurt by our current employment-based health care system is Corporate America. I don't see how anyone could want to continue the current system.

[burythehatchet]

16. He GETS IT! He may not be a rightie!! It is a right of all people.

[Rosemary2205]

19. HEY! Thanks!!

You just gave me a great talking point with my conservative friends. Appreciate the "ammo".

Thanks again.

And you are SO right about our companies being at a disadvantage because of private healthcare costs vs. other countries having socialized medicine and taking on that cost rather than the companies.

[burythehatchet]

20. Healthcare is the biggest portion of cost in making an auto in America.

Its a big reason they can no longer compete

[gollygee]

24. And why they're moving so many jobs to Canada

Ontario now has more auto jobs than Michigan (according to my dad anyway but he's generally pretty well informed - he's a swing voter so not really a dem or a repub)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

23. I haven't been able to convince my RW boss yet... but that's a great argument!

thanks. :)

he gets the economic side of it, but all I hear from him is that his friend from the UK says it doesn't work. :eyes: She lives here now and says our system is better. Of course, she has the money to pay for it and is clue-less as to how many other people don't.

edit: spelling

[nashville_brook]

13. thanks for this -- it's a distinction that i didn't get right off the bat

it needs to be spelled out.

[AmandaRuth]

21. IMVHO - The frame should be single payer to keep

high paying jobs in the USA. Frame it to be patriotic, and get the big auto companies on board.

[burythehatchet]

25. that frame is getting traction on the right. But the cognitive dissonance

must be excruciating.

[bobbolink]

28. What (Who) is needed, is a Gore for Healthcare.

Someone who will take on this issue, and take it far and wide---destroying both the erroneous myths, and educating about what can actually be done.

As it is, so much misinformation is spread, and USians being the fearful critters they are, are afraid of change, and anything resembling "socialized medicine".

It would take a person like Gore to make this issue national, and spread to all citizens, so that we are all finally talking the same language.

Know anyone who can take this on?

[burythehatchet]

29. Amen to that

Al Gore is actually the most qualified to take on this and all the big issues. I know in my heart he will step up and do it.

[bobbolink]

31. I doubt it will be Al Gore, although that would be nice.

His heart is with the environmental issues, and that is fine.

What is NOT fine, is that there is nobody with his fire who is directing their energy towards health care and poverty. NOBODY. (Yes, Edwards is coming close with poverty, but .... definitely not the splash that Gore is making!)

There needs to be the town meetings, the bringing together of folks with the knowledge and drive (unfortunately, health care doesn't have the unified "peer-review" group), and a BIG MOVIE!

That is definitely a full-time enterprise, and Gore's energy and time are already spoken fore.

Now, if we just had, say, a big name former Surgeon General, or someone of stature and drive...

...sigh....

Any nominations?

[SoCalDem]

30. What we need is plain ole socialized medicine/national health care service.

There is NOTHING WRONG with calling it socialized medicine. It's the least that the richest country on earth" owes its citizens.

The public needs to be re-introduced to the real meanings of words.
Democrats/liberals/progressives need to take back our language first.

Everything has been turned on its head. There was a day when insurance was low cost BECAUSE everyone was in the same pool..high risk AND low risk. The ones who did not "need" the services subsidized the ones who DID. Sometime around the 80's the insurers found ways to "cull the herd", and eliminate the ones who needed the service, MOST...and to only "offer" them insurance at prices most could never afford...and yet the prices still rose for the so-called healthy young ones who were told that their rates would drop once the "high-riskies" were culled.

Where did the money all go?? Look at all those huge skyscrapers the insurance companies built, look at those CEO incomes, those dividends to the richie-rich investors, to all the mergers..

Do people feel more secure with their insurance these days?? Nope.. But they are paying more and more than they ever imagined, and they get less and less back when they need it most.

[bobbolink]

32. Fear rules the day.

USians are the most fear-based group on the planet, I think.

If we can find a way to overcome that huge propensity towards fear, we will be a long way towards realizing some of these goals.

Ideas? :)

[burythehatchet]

37. how does one "un-demonize" a word?

[bobbolink]

36. Here's a good healthcare clip to share with those who aren't

understanding the issues:

http://www.grahamazon.com/sp/whatissinglepayer.php

Short, to the point, and enjoyable. :hi:

[Cleita]

38. I agree. It's the HMOs and insurance companies that are in collusion

with big PHARMA that is destroying our health care infrastructure in diverting health care dollars to advertising, to lobbyists in Washington and to Wall Street profits not to mention compensation on the scale of Roman emperors for their executive officers.

Insurance by its nature is for catasrophic events. Every insurance company sells you their product with the odds that they will never have to pay you off. This is why they are more than willing to insure you when you are young and healthy, but become more and more reluctant as you age or develop medical conditions and need for health care. Then rates go up and compensation goes down.

This also burdens health care providers by the amount of paper work they must produce jumping through hoops trying to get reimbursed for it. For profit HMOs try to cut their costs by micromanaging every member patient and throwing obstacles in front of the health care providers as to the minimum of care that they will pay for as well as the patient for exactly how they are to get care and from whom. Their motivation is for a healthy bottom line and rewards for their stockholders.

We need to improve and expand Medicare for everyone. This system already has an efficient bureaucracy in place to administer it. It needs more funding to meet today's health care needs, keep the health care providers getting fair recompense and to extend coverage for all medical needs for everyone. We should even eliminate the copay. It's nonsense and can be covered by raising the SS medicare deduction on wages to get those dollars from the high income people who are not paying their fair share.

It's doable and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[antigop]

44. Agreed, Cleita -- Medicare for All is the way to go n/t

[kath]

50. It's doable for every other developed nation (and has been for decades), so

it's absolutely doable for the US.

A question for the rightwingers - Who would Jesus provide healthcare to?? Only those with good paying jobs with benefits?
It absolutely UNCHRISTIAN for this nation not to provide healthcare for all.

[area51]

52. "It absolutely UNCHRISTIAN for this nation not to provide healthcare for all."

Great point. I love it how nazi party members arrogantly claim to be Christian & "pro-life", but are actually anti-life because they fight against single-payer, universal healthcare. This is a barbaric nation that condemns the non-wealthy to death because they don't have enough funds for medical treatment. Also (for the lurkers), if you want this country to be competitive, we've got to have healthcare for all citizens, as our workforce is less healthy that civilized countries which have single-payer.

[kath]

57. Sales tax on groceries is also very unChristian, IMO, yet it is most common

in conservative states. Here in the buckle of the Bible Belt, we pay 7.75% on everything, including groceries, and in the neighboring city it's 8.375%.

Would Jesus really be OK with the concept of taxing a poor mother 24 cents every time she buys a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread to feed her babies?? Somehow I really, really don't think so.

But high sales tax, which is a regressive tax, especially when it is applied to FOOD and other necessities, is a favorite in red states.

[Cleita]

58. We don't here in California yet, but we do have to pay at a

restaurant, even fast food, which puts many poor at a disadvantage. I wonder how long before, no more taxes, Arnold, shifts the burden to the poor of his state's debt, by increasing the amount and the scope of sales taxes?

[burythehatchet]

55. Not only is it doable, its will be less expensive

and it will lead to better health for all.

Basic coverage for all...no questions asked.

[antigop]

40. The Iraqi constitution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/12/AR2005101201450.html

>>
Article 30:

First: The state guarantee to the individual and the family -- especially children and women -- social and health security and the basic requirements for leading a free and dignified life. The state also ensures the above a suitable income and appropriate housing.

Second: The State guarantees the social and health security to Iraqis in cases of old age, sickness, employment disability, homelessness, orphanage or unemployment, and shall work to protect them from ignorance, fear and poverty. The State shall provide them housing and special programs of care and rehabilitation. This will be organized by law.

Article 31:

First: Every citizen has the right to health care. The state takes care of public health and provide the means of prevention and treatment by building different types of hospitals and medical institutions.
>>

EVERY CITIZEN HAS THE RIGHT TO HEALTH CARE. IT'S A RIGHT.

[Cleita]

41. Many countries have provisions in their constitutions for

making health care a right. Ours doesn't. We need an ammendment to that purpose. This way it doesn't matter whose in power. By the Constitution they have to figure out how to get it to every single person in their country.

[bobbolink]

42. I agree. Constitutional amendments... for poverty and health care!

You're so right!

Unfortunately, that takes generations, as we've seen with the Equal Rights Amendment. So, we have to keep working in the meantime...

Great point--thanks! :thumbsup:

[bvar22]

43. Beware of Democrats selling "Affordable HealthCare"!!!

AFAIK, Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate who supports Single Payer Universal HealthCare.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Cleita]

46. And that's the reason he is my candidate in 2008.

eom