Liberal Ignorance And Stupidity About Religion Will Screw The Democratic Party's Election Chances

[Radicalman]

LIBERALS ENGAGE IN SURPRISE RELIGIOUS WAR ON MAJOR PROGRESSIVE WEB SITE

TCS - December 15, 2006. A battle between political progressives has broken out in an unexpected place. Rarely, if ever, is there disagreement between these political types on Arianna Huffington’s popular “Huffington Post.” The commentaries there are liberal in nature as are the art works. That has changed as a Los Angeles area artist contributor has attacked a fellow progressive as being a “sophomoric ignoramus.” The heated clash is between two artists who have strongly dissimilar views about Christianity and politics.

Each month the site features original art work by designers, activists, filmmakers and comics. The most popular entrants win a prize of $3,000 in a contest on the Huffington Post site called the “Contagious Festival.” Each view of an entry counts as a vote.

For the month of December an entrant called the “Atheist Delusion,” which is a robust attack on Christianity, has garnered over 121,000 votes. In a direct response to this aggressive assault, Keith Shirey recently posted his entry which personally attacks the creator of the “Atheist Delusion.” He named his offering “Atheist-Social Darwinist-Hawk.” Shirey, who frequently posts videos and cartoons in the contest, says his own entry is far behind in the voting because he entered it days after The Atheist Delusion had garnered thousands of votes. Both “The Atheist Delusion” and “Atheist-Social Darwinist-Hawk” may be viewed on the internet at http://cf.huffingtonpost.com/

Shirey is a professor of philosophy at a California Community College, teacher of comparative religion, a practicing Episcopalian, and anti-war activist who has been jailed and follwed by INS agents, he says, because of his religious beliefs. In an interview he heatedly portrayed the “Atheist Delusion” as “A piece of crap, the shabby offering of a theological ignoramus who is reinforcing the mistaken notions of fellow non religious political progressives.”

Shirey stated that “The Atheist Delusion” portrays all Christians as as believing that the earth is 6,000 years old, Darwin’s theory of evolution is in error, and that science and reason have no place in the lives of Christians.” However, he protested, ‘Mainline churches don’t hold these views. For example, most Christians are Roman Catholics and their church would reject this brainless depiction of their beliefs as utter nonsense. Modern Popes, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, Archbishop Desmond Tu Tu didn’t and don’t believe this way. On a more personal level, I’ve never met anyone engaging in non-violent civil disobedience, who is religiously motivated, who would believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, and are anti-reason and anti-science.”

“The huge success of this anti-Christian diatribe on Huffington is an example of why many Christians see secularist political liberals as anti-religious fanatics. This has and will hurt the Democratic Party. Instead of voting for this absurd presentation, the Huffington Post viewers should be critically analyzing it.”

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EDIT: COPYRIGHT. PLEASE POST ONLY 4 OR 5
PARAGRAPHS FROM THE COPYRIGHTED NEWS
SOURCE PER DU RULES.

[Little Wing]

1. Like it did last time?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

2. Uh, your OP title was bad enough, but an article detailing the thread in a blog????

I think you may have a love of flames.

:popcorn: MKJ

[Radicalman]

19. Naw, I Don't Think The Earth Will End In The Fires Of Armageddon!!

Or did you have something else in mind? There isn't a post here yet that discusses the substantive issues: Is the interpretation of Christianity in the post correct? Is it fair for the artist on the Huffington Post to equate right wing fundamentalist evangelicals with all Christians? Is it the case that science and reason play no role in the lives of mainline Christians. The artwork on the Huffington Post suggests liberation theology is a good thing. Is that so?

There isn't hardly anything here that reflects any understanding of religion. It seems that the argument presented in the post is correct - secular liberals are truly an ignorant lot.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Rad, only ~40% of Americans accept Evolution.

And mainline Christian worth his pillar of salt has got to agree, that's way too few.

"secular liberals are truly an ignorant lot."

Take any random liberal and any random conservative, stick them in a room and quiz them on both science and religion.

My money's on the liberal. In fact I'll double down.

[Radicalman]

34. You're Right

Christianity has a very dark side and part of that is opposing science and reason. And the opposition to Darwin in the U.S. is due to crackpot Christianity. But that doesn't preclude the necessity of us progressives not alienating mainstream Christians, nor does it mean that secular liberals aren't ignorant about Christianity. In the post it is argued that the secular liberal friends of the artist are an ignorant lot when it comes to religion.

As far as I'm concerned that may be true, but I wouldn't bet against you!! On the other hand, I wouldn't back you if you tried to run the table!

[mike_c]

39. I am a "secular liberal" who was raised in a fundy household...

...so I am not entirely "ignorant about Christianity." I still repudiate it, and have no use whatsoever for christians who want to mix their religion with politics. ESPECIALLY christians who want to mix their religion with politics. No thank you.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

45. I didn't know liberals "alienated" Xtians. They seem to be flocking to us in droves. The Christ part

of Christianity is found in the liberal point of view...helping the least among us, peace not war, judge not, love thy neighbor, and blessed be the meek who shall inherit the earth. MKJ

[Radicalman]

49. I'm Not Sure

I think the topic is serious enough to warrant my post. You may be right 'cause my evidence is entirely autobiographical. But, I think we should all keep an open mind about this. I can tell you that secular liberals and their snide remarks about all Christians piss off a lot of my friends at the very theologically progressive church I attend. It's so progressive that the Internal Revenue Service has the board of governors (the vestry) and clergy under investigation, probably at the instigation of that fascist bastard Bush.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

50. You're "Not Sure". Where's the fiery defense of your Original Post? I was hoping

for a pragmatist's argument and got, instead, lots of vacillation.

[Radicalman]

76. I Can See You're Hard To Please!!

You complain first about my flaming then complain about my being conciliatory and moderate in my approach! As my wife would say, "What is it a man wants!" The point obviously is, to repeat myself, to get some discussion about this important topic. The majority of the responses to this post manifest a black and white approach to this subject and reveal a lack of information and reflecton about the variety of theological takes within Christianity. There is exactly what the press release I posted deals with: The knee-jerk, Plavlovian, ignorant anti-religious response by most DU's cannot possibly serve the Democratic Party well. I personally, as a religious person, am offended by them and i'm sure I'm not the only one. Your desire that this post not be successful in numbers of hits did not prevail. It's gotten over 1,400 views so far. You may have the last word. I have better things to do.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

95. Lots of insults in to DU'ers in your post, none of which you can substantiate.

I'd love to see you provide links to posts which:

"The majority of responses to this post manifest a black and white approach...and reveal a lack of information and reflections about the variety of theological takes within Christianity"

Specifically, of which "theological takes" do we lack information and reflection"? Please provide the post numbers on your thread which display this ignorance of those "takes".

You provided not a single link to the "press releases". This rant was not in any reputable journalistic source, apparently. Please provide the link to prove otherwise.

And, calling most DU'ers "knee-jerk, Pavlovian, ignorant and anti-religious" is against the DU posting rules.

You seem thrilled that your flame bait was successful. Too bad it was nothing but empty speculation and insults, with no substantiative argument.

MKJ

[EvolveOrConvolve]

71. Show us some of those "snide remarks"

that piss off your friends at church.

[Radicalman]

77. You Do The Work, Just Read Most Of The Posts In This Thread!!!!!!!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

81. And your church friend is here reading this thread?

[Toots]

68. I say BS

I may be a secular Liberal but I have been told many times about Christ and his actions. I don't see that mentality displayed anywhere except from Liberal Churches and I am a supporter of those. I do not believe Christianity should be shoved down the throat of anyone and to you that makes me ignorant..Okay I guess I am. I don't think we have to have Christianity in our government or schools to win elections...I think if we do what christ would do as far as treating people in a certain manner we will win hands down..The Christian freaks are losing their shine...

[Xipe Totec]

3. M.E.G.O.

(My Eyes Glaze Over)

:boring:

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. Agree!

:boring:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. With all due respect to professors of philosophy at community...

colleges...

I... ah...

umm...

Shit, I got nothing.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

6. I'm wrong to extend this thread by adding LMAO, but if laughing at your post is wrong,

La la la LA la. :rofl: MKJ

even worse, I edited the la's. MKJ

[Lost-in-FL]

8. That's mean...

:evilgrin:

[Radicalman]

20. You're Right, You Got Nothing

And plenty of it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. LOL.

True.

But at least I'm not a Professor of Philosophy at a community college, worried about how stupid and ignorant them liberals is.

[Radicalman]

28. Well, I Don't Know All That Much Either

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Are you series?

That's hugh.

[Radicalman]

42. I'm Not A Series, I'm A Pices

[QC]

94. I'm a professor at a community college.

I have a Ph.D., a good publishing/conference record, seventeen years of teaching experience, and excellent evaluations.

I help working-class students, who could not otherwise afford it, to get a college education.

What do you do for a living?

[0rganism]

5. Doomed, I tell you! We're DOOOOOOMED!1!!

series, this could be HUGH!!1!1! :bounce:

[ToolTex]

16. Screwn to the wall, we are!

[rzemanfl]

7. "Surprise religious war?" As opposed to what, the "well planned

religious wars" of the past God knows how many centuries and today?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Thanks for posting this

intolerance and broad brush tactics (labeling everyone in a particular group) is not something confined to the conservative ranks, sadly enough.

[valerief]

10. Well, ever since god spoke to our Christianist Preznit, people

are confused about how they can have a secular govt with all those faith-based initiatives.

[Lautremont]

11. I have no doubt that this Shirey is sincere.

But he's describing an internecine Christian war, not one between athiests and believers.

It's not the athiests' fault that evangelicals are bigger blowhards than simple regular people-of-faith.

[Joe for Clark]

12. There is nothing wrong in repeating what you know to be going

around - in fact I commend that.

That said, there are nuts in every sector of society - the way it is.

It is ok - we grow up with it.

Now I am a christian - and I don't care what you believe - that is up to you.

But if you did go thru that stuff, you would learn pretty quickly, a lot of it is neither here nor there. There some important things - the ones you better remember and live with. Mostly the things delivered in the semons on the mount - some of the greatest words I ever heard. And having heard them I can tell you for a fact, there are some better "christian" agnostics out there than people pretending to be christians - you know??

It is so much more a state of mind that religious pretsense.

It really is just the way you live your life man, the rest is BS.

Joe

[bluerum]

13. All Christians, 6000 years old, Darwin, athiest delusion, Christianity and Politics.

In either case, his garbage on The Huffington Post most foully feeds the forces of ignorance in the progressive community. I have to say that many of my secular liberal friends are as ignorant about Christianity as fundamentalist evangelicals are about the true meaning of Christ's teachings which advocate pacifism, loving one's enemy, not worshiping the false idols of materialism and Jesus' stated mission of coming to liberate the poor and oppressed."

Damn.

We are all just liberal secular losers without a clue about religion.

Damn.

Better just pack it in.

Damn.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

15. Give it up, you are a hopelessly lost liberal, never to know the realism of religion.

I'm not sure where that came from....:shrug: MKJ

[ToolTex]

17. We are Screwn!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earthlover]

18. There is a Christian left too

I agree with Shiree. There is a Christian Left as well as a Christian Right. To treat all Christians as if they spout the crap that Fallwell, et al do is not a heck of a lot different than treating all liberals as if they all follow the beliefs of Stalin and Lenin!!!!

Jesus was a liberal. If Jesus were to come today, preaching compassion, peace, love, forgiveness, helping the poor, humility and justice.... would he be dismissed by some of today's liberals as another Fallwell incarnation?

As a liberal and as a Christian I get turned off by smugness. I don't like the smugness of Fallwell types who think they have a monopoly on the truth and the rest of us are wrong. I also don't like the smugness of those on the left who think they have a monopoly on the truth and the rest of us are wrong. Do either of these groups see how similar they are to each other?

From a political point of view, the religious right has swung many an election. With the help of the irreverant left who give them an easy target, I might add. Perhaps Bush would still be on the ranch in Texas were it were not for the Christian bashers who fired up the religious right against "librals"? Not saying that the real fanatics wouldn't be bashing liberals anyway, but why make their job any easier to persuade less fanatical folks to go along with them?

[tinfoil tiaras]

23. Amen!

Welcome to DU, btw! :hi:

[ToolTex]

27. Just like we keep hearing that it is the responsibility of moderate muslims

to retake Islam from the fanatics, isn't it the responsibility of moderate or liberal xians to retake xanity from the fundys? Why do you think rational, non-delusional liberals should coddle delusional, non-rational liberals? I don't get it. Either you are with us or you are irrational. I don't want to be in the same camp as you because you will rear your children to be believers in delusional faith. And those children will try to eat us all. This war has gone on for thousands of years and will continue until the irrational delusionists of faith are ended. Period. Nuke the red states now.

Oh wait I'm in texas. Please wait until xmas day for nuking.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Yeah, but that's bullocks.

I don't judge muslims because of Osama bin Laden, why would I judge Christians because of George Bush?

[ToolTex]

31. Because they vote for him?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. LOL.

OK, I concede that.

:rofl:

[mitchtv]

55. you can say that again

so called Christians ( what we consider liberals) have allowed themselves to be marginalized by the wingnuts who have literally taken over their respective sects (including the Catholics). They have gotten in the back of the bus , and sheepishly allowed it. They are to blame for the low regard Xians are held in. Granted there have been half baked attemps by liberal Christians to speak up as of late . For me, too little , too late. they have only themselves to blame.

[LanternWaste]

84. So are we or are we not supposed to keep our religion to oursevles?

So are we or are we not supposed to keep our religion to oursevles? I keep getting confused-- one day I'm supposed to stand up and fight, the next day I'm supposed to sit down and shut up. Could you guys please make up my mind?

[mitchtv]

85. go out and picket some RW church on Sunday

with a picture of maimed Iraqi children. If you value the good name of Christianity you must drive the money changers from the temple. I speak for myself, so make up your own mind. There is a time to speak up and that is to the liars who you(collectively)have allowed to take over a religion and turn it into garbage. Keep your so called Xian "values" the hell away from me. I try to practice the golden rule, which is more than I can say for most of the Pharisaical religionists ( full of dead mens bones).

[LanternWaste]

90. The loudest are not by defacto, the majoriy.

I think you believe that the loudest of any given religion are defacto, the majority. I truley do not think that's the case.

You've claimed that the moneychangers have co-opted Christianity. I would submit that the vast mahority of American Christians are like I am in this sense: we *do* keep it to ourselves. We do keep it private. We witness through our actions and deeds rather than through editorials.

We don't have television shows or mega churches or PACs. So we don't get heard very often (which isquite alright with me).

We are quiet and repectful. Yet it appears that the very thing I hold dear-- this very same genteel practice of my faith should be discarded, but ONLY when it comes to others of my faith. When it comes to anyone else, I'm supposed to shut up again and my faith should neither seen nor heard. Is that correct?

[mitchtv]

93. Same is true of muslims

But it doesn't matter, "evil thrives when good men do nothing" Good christians have done precisely that:nothing. Majority or not, they have abdicated their leadership and hence their claim to any moral rightousness. The word to the Pharisees (Christians)is "sell what you have, give to the poor, and come follow me". And we all know about the camel getting through that eye of the needle. How they can sit by and encourage an illegal war of agression is beyond me. Not to mention persecution of Gays. You know things; that are of Caesar.(rights)

[LanternWaste]

83. I'll make a point and instuct my kids not to eat you.

I'll make a point and instuct my kids not to eat you. Now I've gotta run to the deli and find another main course, doggonit.

:eyes:

[sendero]

47. But what sucks is..

... the Christian Right is all over the media and the pulpits spouting their bullshit but when you listen for the Christian Left (present company excluded of course) you hear..... crickets. Or occassionally Jimmy Carter.

It is perfectly reasonable for folks to think that Christians believe all that shit because THAT'S ALL YOU EVER HEAR FROM THEM.

That, and selected passages from the Old Testament and damn near nothing of Jesus's message.

Folks who want to start an argument about Christianity vs atheism have one hand behind their back from the start. There isn't an iota of evidence to support their version of the world, and they know it. And it frosts them to no end that some people have the GUTS to admit that they do not believe in and live by a fairy tale.

[spoony]

75. Rot, total rot.

I can only suppose you also think all Muslims are terrorists, since they're louder than the moderates too. And what was the purpose of the last paragraph? Oh, yes, because an atheist can never, ever comment on religion without reminding believers that they aren't your equals. :eyes:

[etherealtruth]

82. I'm not a big fan of zealotry ...

... of any kind.

I do believe that the Christian "left" does speak out ... I also believe that the corporate media rarely covers it (at least not on the same level they do the right wing wackos).

The same is true of Muslims that are appalled by terrorism done in the name of Islam (or other Islamic zealotry).

It's not fun or profitable for the media to cover. Who wants to hear a bunch of sane people of faith calmly describing how the nut don't represent them?

[walldude]

53. If Jesus came today preaching compassion,

peace, love, forgiveness, helping the poor, humility and justice.... it wouldn't be the liberals who dismiss him. Or haven't you been paying attention for the last 6 years? Liberals have been called everything from Terrorist Sympathizers, to Commies, to Un-American for espousing those exact values.

Welcome to DU!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

73. The big difference

is that the religious right want to inject their brand of christianity into politics and governance, while the religious left is mostly a Separation of Church & State crowd.

Being an "irreverant leftie" is one of my finest jobs - I won't stop calling the religious right on their bullshit, even if the religious left takes offense to my views on fundamentalist shenanigans.

[BlooInBloo]

22. Fuck christianist concern trolls - as if anything was made better by listening to religionists.

[Radicalman]

26. Temper Temper Now, Let's Not Lose it

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're a troll. Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of the brother priests, Daniel and Philip Berrigan and their efforts on behalf of peace and justice? They did a lot of jail time for their beliefs. What do you think of people like that?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

67. Perhaps you could post a link, since it appears that you wrote this and it IS

sounding very "concerned" while trashing liberals. MKJ

[LittleClarkie]

60. Wanna make something sound nasty, put an "ist" at the end of it

I'm not into "ists" myself. Or "isms" either.

[BlooInBloo]

66. You're right - it's redundant in this case - good catch!

[Radical Activist]

88. I think the world was made better by listening to MLK and Gandhi.

genius.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Just what we need. Another "You atheists need to shut up, you lose us elections" thread.

Let me guess: We're alienating the values voters, right?

:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

[Sapphocrat]

35. Hey, get in line, willya?

Us GAYS are the ones who need to STFU up FIRST, 'cause WE'RE the ones alienating the values voters and losing elections for the Democrats! Just like we lost the 2006 election for the Demo-- oops, um, never mind that!

The real point is... Damn you atheists, riding on our big gay coattails all the time! ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Yeah, well, you guys ARE trend-setters. nt

[ToolTex]

38. Hey wait a minute, I'm both I can alienate everybody.

And Honey, I'll ride on your coattail anytime anyplace. :blush:

[Democrats_win]

54. You're all so last year! It's the "radical multiculturalists!" Today.

From the getting-stranger-stranger Tom Tancrado.

[Zhade]

63. Where does that leave gaytheists like me?

:evilgrin:

[NMMNG]

70. Hey, I'm both gay and atheist

I'm not riding on your anything. :P

[Radicalman]

41. No, The Post Says That Atheists Should Be Intellectually Responsible In Their Attack On Religion

I have no problem with Atheists at all, particularly theologians of atheist humanism. As far as I'm concerned, there are two kinds of people: 1) Those who "feed" only themselves and 2) Those who "feed" themselves and, if they are able. To "feed" others relates to clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, seeing the prisoners in jail. American society is fucked because it doesn't do this and doesn't obey Jesus' commandments against war.

My secular atheist son would certainly agree with this. Personally, I think that ethics is unrelated to religion, that higher morality finds it way sometimes into institutionalized religion.

[BlooInBloo]

44. No, the post says liberals are "stupid" and "ignorant" about religion - a flat lie....

... Au contraire, we're all TOO familiar with religion. What would be stupid would be to ignore the overall murderous, anti-intellectual, rapacious history/currency of religion, in favor of a few good examples. THAT would be ignorant and stupid. That IS ignorant and stupid.

[WindRavenX]

51. oh horseshit

I don't "attack" religion or religious people-- I just want them out and far away from my government.

[NMMNG]

72. And when are the religious ever intellectually or ethically responsible

in their attacks on atheists? EVER?

I'm sick and tired of this notion that people need to pussyfoot around religion out of respect, but the religious can do and say whatever they want in the name of their "deeply held religious beliefs". Gays need to go to hell and burn forever (and in the meantime they get treated like non-humans as far as rights go), atheists aren't even worthy of being citizens of the US and are immoral/amoral, people of other religions are evil and need to be converted or suffer, etc. Until religious people start showing others the respect they demand they can STFU.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. I want to thank the OP. "The Atheist Delusion" is TOTALLY worth watching- and voting for. nt

[Pastiche423]

40. I am a bit confused

The only way to vote for it, is to email the page to friends?

(I get a headache when I have to listen to god stuff.)

[Radicalman]

46. Yes, You Are Indeed! Just go to http://cf.huffingtonpost.com/

Just kidding!! Couldn't resist. You want to vote for The Atheist Delusion on the Huffington Post? Just go to http://cf.huffingtonpost.com/ and view it. Your view counts as a vote. On the other hand, you could also view Atheist-Social Darwinist-Hawk to see the opposite point of view - of course it might give you a long, prolonged, unbearable migrane.

[Old and In the Way]

37. Really? We lose in 2008, like we did in 2006?

Sorry, no sale. I'm more than happy to let liberal Christians fight their RW whackjob counterparts on the Right. I can agree that there is goodness in valuing humility, following the Golden Rule, helping the poor, infirmed, etc.

But all Christians and all followers of their particular forms of religion need to keep it in their churches. As I don't think politics should intrude into the affairs of a church, I don't believe religion should intrude into the affairs of state. We've seen how much damage has been done to the world and our country when we allow the irrational to dominate our rational and secularly shared world.

[ToolTex]

43. I am declaring war on the word "Secular."

Religionists can separate themselves from our country if they want, but they will not separate me from my country by them assigning me to a small pie slice of the whole.

[Democrats_win]

56. Big religious leader in Denver gave speech about evils of secularism.

Then the ICE raid on the Swift plant occured and he spoke up against the government. But what hopefully won't escape the citizens of CO is that he should be preaching to the criminals arrested that steeling people's identities harms families some of which are probably religious. ...people in glass houses and all...

[MOB]

48. Re: original post

re: the original post, I sort of agree. I feel like the Democratic Party has some of the same culture problems that NBC has - it seems to want to embrace big city values. And why shouldn't it - most of our supporters live in big cities.

But it's clear that we need to have play in rural areas. For instance, issues like NAFTA hit rural areas hard - IMO if we want to contact on that issue we have to go to the country, where the people are getting hit by it. Making speeches about NAFTA from some urban ivory tower (ahmmm, Kerry '04 General) just doesnt have the same hit.

And when we try to export big city values to the country, we also get into problems, we encounter insurmountable disconnects. We come across as disingenous - country folk can see right through it. Let's be honest - when we do this we're not even being *representative*.

That's why I find Barack so interesting - he actually exudes many country values without turning off the big city folks. He actually campaigns in country areas even though he's already won the city vote.

I just want to add that we can and should talk about values without getting overly religious. The GOP is being so successful partially because it has success communicating its values in straight talk language and without being perceived as disingenous.

[ToolTex]

58. The GOP has not been successful. It has stolen elections with less than a majority.

Don't tell us about values. We see GOP lies for what they are.

[ToolTex]

59. WOOOOO wooooo wooooo that was my 666th post. Be afraid. Be very afraid!

:evilgrin

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. urban values? country values?

What sort of nonsense is that?

[MrSlayer]

57. Ignorance and stupidity about Christianity and religion?

I know organized religion all too well. I wouldn't be so hostile toward it if I didn't.

[USA_1]

61. Social Gospel Was Key To Past Democratic Party Success ...

... time to use that Bible to prove that utilitarian policies are what makes the Dems' message workable.

[Radical Activist]

89. Good point. The birth of the modern Democratic party was rooted in religion.

The social gospel of William Jennings Bryan is what transformed the Democrats from a regional party of former confederates into a national party that stood for something positive.

[Zhade]

62. An atheist who calls himself "Atheist Delusion"?

Sounds like a bullshit front to me - someone trying to make atheists look bad.

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

64. "Athiests aren't Americans" - paraphrasing George H.W. Bush

This is dumb. I think athiests are more knowledgeable about religion than some christians are.

[RadiDem]

65. What is 'TCS' where you copied and pasted that article from?

no link?

THX

[Radicalman]

78. I'm Embarassed, I Lost It!! But It's Accurate - Check With The Entries On Contagious Festival

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. I don't see how to get to Shirey's comments

the link to Huffington Post seems to go to the competition, no his remarks.

But I think the question was "what is TCS"? Is it Tech Central Station? If so, it's not surprising they're trying to paint a disagreement between 2 people no-one has heard of on the left as something that would affect the whole party's election chances - they're a right wing site, and will say any old shit to stir things up. But this is like saying a row in DU's Religion and Theology forum is going to affect the election. Ann Coulter advocates mass murder, for heaven's sake - isn't that more newsworthy? She appears on TV.

[NMMNG]

69. Yeah, those uppity atheists are going to screw us in 2008 just like in 2006

Uh, er...never mind.


Get a clue. Pointing out the absurdities of religion and religious fanatics isn't going to harm us any more than gays asking for equal rights has, or any more than women demanding their right not to be treated as mere brood sows. The Republicans tried censorship and fascism and look where it got them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

74. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

Organized religions are institutions with powerful leaders. They are not, and should not be, exempt from criticism and skepticism.

[davhill]

79. I became a liberal because I was a Christian

I grew up in an era when religious people led the way in the civil rights and anti-war movement. Images of the Rev Martin Luther King, the jailed Berrigan brothers, and marching priests and nuns formed my idea about how a Christian should act politically. When I became outraged that we were about to be led into an unjust war and that the poor were being systematically deprived of their social and economic rights, I sought to join with other liberals to take political action. I was shocked find out when I attended meetings of "progressive" groups that I was assumed to be anti-religous as well. When they found out I was not, I was politely shunned. I am still a liberal and still vote Democratic, but in our sadly divided country I am having a hard time finding those with whom I can work in solidarity.

[NoPasaran]

80. Who is "TCS" anyway?

Google offers many, many choices, including

Tulsa Computer Society
Tata Consultancy Services
Train Control Systems
theoretical computer scientists
Taiwanese Cultural Society
The Crustacean Society
The Citizen Scientist
The Coastal Society
Technological Cinevideo Services

...none of whom seem likely to have gotten bent out of shape over anything on HuffPo.

[Radicalman]

91. RESPONSE TO 2 INQUIRIES: GO TO http://darwinist-hawk.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

To see the basis of the controversy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. I can see that directing people directly to your entry gets your count up

more than directing them to the main site, because there's less chance of people clicking on one of your competitors; but, realistically, most people are going to want to view the one you're railing against, so I doubt you're going to catch them up. Since you say the votes are done purely on the views the entries get, I can't see how you expect anyone to 'critically analyze' it without voting for it. Presumably your real problem is that people are recommending it to friends, who then view it.

I don't think your attack on "The Atheist Delusion" is really justified, anyway. I don't think it says all Christians believe the earth is 6,000 years old. It's just a parody of what some Christians say. And if you want to call it a "piece of crap, the shabby offering of a theological ignoramus who is reinforcing the mistaken notions of fellow non religious political progressives", then you're better off taking the argument to the Religion and Theology forum, where those things are meant to be discussed on DU.

I don't think one video on a progressive website really affects the Democratic party. It's not a candidate saying it; it's not the party. It's one (anonymous) person. So your claims that this "has and will hurt the Democratic Party", and "Liberal Ignorance And Stupidity About Religion Will Screw The Democratic Party's Election Chances" don't hold up, I think.

Can we take it that "TCS" doesn't mean anything, then? That you just 'interviewed yourself', and put the result here?