If a "christmas tree" has nothing to do with religion, why is it called that?

[uppityperson]

I've been listening to NPR call-in show about taking down the trees at SeaTac airport when a Jewish leader asked to put up an 8 ft tall menorrah. Answers ranged from "Port of Seattle's job is transportation, not decoration. No decorations, keep it functional" to "sell space to any non-profit to decorate" to "invite all religions to decorate a tree together" to "get over it, it is only a tree" to...

So, my question stemming from this is: If this decorated tree is commonly and typically called a "christmas tree" or "Christmas tree", how can this have nothing to do with religion? Why not call it a decorated tree, or a holiday tree, or a here kittykitty tree?

Here is a "christmas tree"


Here is a "holiday tree"


Here is a "decorated tree"


Googling christmas tree gets 541,000 hits in images, holiday tree gets 40,000, decorated tree gets 5730.

Edited to add: Why call it a "christmas tree"? why not call it a decorated tree? I call it a "chrismas tree" even though I do not celebrate Christmas (birthday of Jesus celebration) as a Christian and have been wondering why. I like having discussions with others here on DU who like to think about things, ponder why. If you do not want to discuss this, please feel free to not participate.

[rodeodance]

1. i see it as a symbol of Peace--its meaning has evolved over time for

many--

[uppityperson]

8. I really like them too, but come from germanic heritage who always had them

Why are they called "christmas tree"?

[smirkymonkey]

80. The Germans called them "Tannenbaums" which basically

means "Fir Tree." I don't think they were called "Christmas Trees" until much further down the line.

[eallen]

2. Language is odd. What does Wednesday have to do with Odin?

Or Thursday with Thor?

[hobbit709]

6. All of the days of the week

are named after gods.

[bananas]

13. So every day is a religious holiday? nt

[Clark2008]

77. Everyday feels like Sunday... eom

[eallen]

15. Yep. Does that mean it is religious to use those names?

You see the problem? Sometimes a Christmas tree is just a Christmas tree.

BTW, I'm about the most rabid secular card-carrying ACLU advocate of separation of church and state you're ever likely to meet. I'm just not sure that a Christmas tree is anymore religious than my Christmas mistletoe, or the bourbon in my Christmas nog.

:hippie:

[uppityperson]

19. so why a "christmas" tree? if nothing to do with christmas?

say you are not a christian, or you are a mixed religious person, or aren't religious, or whatever, why put the "christmas" in the tree? I don't think it is particularly religious (to me) but why use "christmas" in the name?

[DireStrike]

56. Because that's what it's called

You want to change the name? Knock yourself out. Sounds like work. :)

[uppityperson]

57. The reason we call something (*) is because that's what it's called?

that is a true thing. The reason I am sitting in the chair typing on my computer is because I am. That is also true. However, I like to look at deeper reasons and ask "why?" Sometimes it is work. Asking "why" does not necessarily be because I want to change something, but because I want to better understand it.

[eallen]

59. "Christmas" is just a name. The reason for the season is axial tilt...

It's easy for me to play someone who thinks all gods are silly superstition, because I do. Christmas is a holiday that features a blend of pagan tradition, coopted by the Catholic church, stirred by 19th century English romanticism, and repackaged by 20th century American consumerism. The fact that the name Christmas has the word Christ in it no more matters to me than it does to most Christians that the English word Easter derives from a pagan fertility goddess, or to either of us that the name Wednesday refers to Odin. The tree is no longer a pagan rite, and the word Christmas is being ripped from its Catholic roots, no matter how much some of the religious want to put Christ back in it. Alas for them, but their holiday has been coopted just as they coopted earlier traditions. Christmas in the modern world is about feasting and drinking and gift giving and seeing comic holiday movies. The religious Catholics can have their creches and midnight masses. The Jehovah's Witnesses and some other protestant sects can call it all sin. For the rest of us, it's just the big winter holiday.

Merry Christmas. Keep your egg well nogged and your sweetie under the mistle toe.

:hippie:

[LifeDuringWartime]

69. exactly

christmas isn't a religious holiday to me - it's a friends and family holiday.

[uppityperson]

70. Me too

which is why I started wondering about the christ part. Not meaning to ask anyone to change anything or anything or say this is right or wrong or anything like that but this is what got me wondering.

It is a friends and family celebration and holiday and a brightly lit well decorated here kitty kitty tree

[Mike Daniels]

134. Because Christmas is the only major holiday that features a decorated tree as a primary symbol?

Christmas is just as much a secular event nowadays as it is religous.

If any other major holiday used a tree decorated in tinsel, ornaments and lights at this time of year I'd say "holiday" tree would be a reasonable term.

However, since that is not the case then it should properly be called a Christmas tree.

[NeedleCast]

147. Hot Dog

Why do we call a hot dog a hot dog? I mean, it contains no dog (according to Oscar Meyer). It's just what it's called. Maybe because calling it "Various Odds and Ends of Animal Parts On a Bun With Condiments" would be a pain in the ass when it came to ordering one at the ballpark.

[CTyankee]

72. My Jewish friends have explained this very CLEARLY

They don't see the so called "christmas tree" as anything but a Christian symbol so forget the "It's a pagan thing!" argument.

It is not whether WE see it as a faux Christian symbol, it is how it is interpreted by our Jewish friends.

Get it?

[uppityperson]

74. Yes.

This made me wonder why I continue to call it a Christmas tree when I don't celebrate "christmas". Does the name contribute to it continuing to be a Christian symbol? I know I know, next will come those saying I am arguing semantics (actually they have already shown up) but words matter. And I know, simply changing the name will not make it all better, but, oh, I don't know.

[joe_sixpack]

76. Well,,,

what if we were to do a little survey. How many non christians do you think have christmas trees in their houses, compared to non Jewish families that have menorahs in theirs?

[uppityperson]

78. what does that have to do with anything except why still call it "christmas" tree?

[BoneDaddy]

86. So we need to take every single person's personal tribal

consideration into account...enough already with this nonsense.

The majority of America is Christian, why not simply allow it and LIKE the Hasidic rabbi said "add a menorah".

But trying to appeal to the entirity of every cultural expression is ridiculous.

Political correctness madness.

We have more important issues to take on.

[CTyankee]

121. My Jewish friends are not against MY Christmas tree or YOURS

They simply do not want their taxes to be used to put up and maintain a Christmas tree in public areas. As a minority that has been persecuted over centuries in strongly Christian countries, they feel safer with strict separation of church and state. Several I have spoken to about this have also been opposed to putting up a menorah with public money in public areas.

[BoneDaddy]

126. And when it comes down to it

it is ridiculous. I mean come on...we have more important things to deal with.

[CTyankee]

129. See my post about cultural hegemony on this thread

It is the way this issue has been explained to me by many of my Jewish friends.

Look, I was brought up as one of the Protestant majority in Texas in the '50s. When I came to New York I was surprised to learn that Dec. 25th was just another days to my Jewish friends. I used to argue with them that the Christmas tree was not really religious but they didn't see it that way and were pretty emphatic about it. I have evolved on this issue and I support them. At the same time, I do Christmas every year (altho I no longer have a tree because it is just too much effort for me and I go to my daughter's house anyway).

To me, this is an issue of sensitivity to the deep feelings of a people who have been brutally persecuted for 2,000 years by lots of Christian nations.

[BoneDaddy]

131. Come on now

Great strides have been made to incorporate Judaism into America and wonderful connections have made. Of course there is still anti-semetism out there.

I think situations like this further inflame relations with the Jewish community instead of helping them solidify. I would NEVER push my religious issues upon the Jewish community in Israel or demand a secular Christmas tree in a Jewish community.

Look I understand your point, I just think it has the opposite effect and instead of improving relations between cultures, it does the exact opposite.

Besides, this request came from the Hasidic branch of Judaism, who in my opinion, are as radicalized as the whacko Christian fundamentalists and extreme islamic positions.

[CTyankee]

148. Good point about this recent incident. I noticed that the rabbi has

now dropped the case against the airport. I think what happened is that his people realized that they were doing more harm than good to Jews by pressing this case. I agree.

[treestar]

140. Or at least, the majority goes along with the secular Christmas

Call it the "Season" or "Holidays" and it still exists.

Not much getting around that.

Just enjoy the tree, geez. We can take this stuff too far. And it just gives the nutjobs more material for the victim complex over the "War on Christmas."

[eallen]

90. What about Santa Claus? Mistle toe? Elves? Symbols are subtle...

If your friends think there is a clear answer to this issue, they're incorrect. They simply don't understand how symbols work. If they're saying that due to their own experience they view the Christmas tree as a distinctly Christian symbol, they're simply stating a fact about their own experience and one that none should gainsay.

There is no individual or group whose understanding of a symbol is definitive. Nor are meanings fixed. I attended a Christmas dinner party at a couple's house last night. Neither they nor their guests are Christian. But they had a Christmas tree. My own experience is that the tree has become more a cultural than religious symbol, and is put up by many who aren't Christian. That doesn't negate your friend's experience and views. It just points out the range of meanings assigned this practice, that are current in our culture. I think you would find much more consensus that the cross, for example, is religious.

Inevitably, where lines are drawn around symbols that have such broad range of meaning, some people aren't going to be happy. If a state capitol puts up a Christmas tree, the officials thinking they're doing something not religious, and carefully avoiding creches and crosses, that will upset those who see the tree also as religious. If all decorations are forbidden for fear of offending someone, that will tick off others. I'm not discounting your friends' views, but I see them only as one piece of data on the social questions, along with how everyone else's views of such things. The religious right purposely has thrown fuel on these fires. Sometimes it doesn't help to fan the fires.

My own view is: Have a merry, secular Christmas. That will irritate the religious right (good!), and it won't make sense to some who see anything about Christmas as inherently religious.

[CTyankee]

122. Oh, I think they understand symbols very well!

The Christmas tree is culturally hegemonic, if not strictly religious from a theological point of view. That is EXACTLY their fear. And I think it is a wise fear. It becomes then a cultural affirmation of Christianity as this country's official religion. They have every reason, given their history of persecution by Christian nations, to be wary. I think you would be too if you were in their shoes. I know I would!

However, none of my Jewish friends have any problems with Christmas trees in private areas. As a matter of fact, at one friend's Hanukkah parties she played Christmas songs for those of us who are not Jewish! And she always loved my trees and enjoyed them.

My cardiologist is Jewish. At my last visit to him recently, he was talking about how much he loves seeing Santas in New York at Christmas time. He cracked me up when he said he didn't want to see Santas with tzadaca (sp?) boxes (coin boxes for Jewish chidren to use to put money in for the poor)!

[eallen]

135. Well. I hope they turn that ire into donations to the ACLU.

[Bridget Burke]

115. Then, you explained the tree represents Ancient Germanic folklore...

But that didn't make them happy, either.

[Lilith Velkor]

136. Your Jewish friends are bigots

Unfortunately, prejudice against pagans seems to have gotten more popular in the community lately.

Word of advice: never call a pagan Christian unless you are prepared for a beatdown.

[CTyankee]

149. Of course they are not bigots. They have nothing against pagans

or Christians. They just feel that the Christmas tree is a symbol of Christianity, not paganism, in the "real" world. I agree that the Christmas tree had pagan roots and if it is paganism vs. Christianity I am rooting for the pagans. I feel they have been persecuted also.

This is a matter of perspective and many Jews have the perception I have described here. That's all.

[Lilith Velkor]

154. I have never considered that before.

That perspective seems so bizarre to me, I kind of don't know what to say.

I mean...your friends don't know that Christians just made up their own version of the Yuletide holiday and started calling it a christmas tree because they were tired of killing us? And we didn't care because we got to keep on celebrating, and you can call it whatever you want because it's stupid to fight about it, here have some eggnog.

I guess I better brace myself, because next thing you know some fool will try and act like an Easter egg is a Christian symbol. Or a Halloween pumpkin. Just...wow. :wtf:

[Art_from_Ark]

88. Except Sunday and Monday

[hobbit709]

132. The sun and the moon

were often worshipped as gods

[Der Blaue Engel]

3. I have a "here kittykitty tree"

At least my kitties think so. :D

[Critters2]

25. Mine, too!!

My formerly outdoor cat is grateful that I finally had the sense to bring a REAL scratching post into the house--the kind God intended!

[uppityperson]

58. mine too.

cat safer decorations are in the bottom 2 ft, but that doesn't always stop them from going higher. Dog ignores it thank goodness.

[Der Blaue Engel]

89. I lived with someone once whose dog thought the tree was an indoor hydrant

It was quite awful to discover that fact on Christmas morning. :o

[auburngrad82]

128. The only time my Cattle Dog saw a Christmas Tree he peed on it

'cause that's what dogs do.

But he's a good dog and he cut it off when we yelled at him. One of the very few times we've had to yell at him and he's now 11 years old.

He's a good dog...

[LA lady]

4. Supreme Court

I think the Supreme Court ruled that they are secular.

[uppityperson]

9. then why call it a "christmas tree"?

why not a decorated tree, or a sparkly light tree?

[dysfunctional press]

117. because people put them up at christmas time?

do you consider santa claus and rudolph the red-nosed reindeer to be religious symbols?

[Jacobin]

5. Its a pagan tradition co-opted by xtians

The decorated tree was originally a pagan tradition in Germany's upper Rhine region. A decorated holly tree was brought into the house and even placed in the village square. We know this because in 14th-century Alsace laws were written which forbade farmers to cut down evergreens for Christmas uses.

In the 15th or 16th century, the church gave new meaning to the customary symbol of life by decorating trees during the holiday season with apples to symbolize Adam and Eve's expulsion from Eden. Greens were incorporated into medieval miracle plays and into a Christmas a play, honoring Adam and Eve, that was traditionally presented. An evergreen hung with apples, the fruit of knowledge, was the stage prop.

http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/xmastree.htm


I personally don't give a rat's ass if someone wants to put one up in public, or not, because, to me, as a pagan, its cool. If someone wants to think baby Jayzus was born under it, I don't care.

[angstlessk]

7. They have evergreens in the Middle East? I did not know!

I say, hang ornaments from ALL religions (10 each) on the trees and call them a HOLIDAY TREES.

[Lucky Luciano]

14. Consider looking at the Lebanese flag.

[Critters2]

27. Cedars of Lebanon

The national symbol--take a look at their flag.

Here's info about the Lebanon cedar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_Cedar

[angstlessk]

54. Thanks for the info...I did not know! I picutured the palm and date

trees and a few scrub trees like they have in texas..I did not know..I had hear about the 'Cedar revolution'..but was not sure what Cedar meant to the Middle East...I am grateful for the education!

[Critters2]

150. You're welcome! nt

[madrchsod]

10. why does this even matter?

who gives a shit what the dam tree is called.

[zreosumgame]

12. Looks like someone had a thought

and the expression did not pan out as planned. the OP, not you

[uppityperson]

21. indeed. wondering about the term as some find offense at "christmas" tree

I put up a tree and really enjoy it. Thinking about people getting upset because no christmas tree= war on christmas bullshit, wondering why the word christmas is still attached to the tree? I do it out of habit.

[Homer Wells]

66. There are some people who are too damn easily Offended

Jumping Jesus on a Pogo stick!!!

Its called a Christmas tree because enough people came together and decided that is what it should be called, and nobody, so far, has found a good enough reason to change it.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

20. because some people get upset over having 1 religion's symbols up

why not call it a "decorated tree"? If it is only words, so who gives a shit or damn, words do matter. For instance, calling someone a c* or a n* is highly frowned upon. So why have "christmas" attached to the tree?

[zreosumgame]

22. try and get a 5 year old to remember that when it sees it

[uppityperson]

28. 5 yr old pagan? 5 yr old Buddhist? 5 yr old whateverist?

why say "christmas" tree? Why NOT start calling it a decorated tree?

Why not call a black man a nigger, especially 5 yr old kids 'cause after all they are only 5? Words have power and I am wondering if this is one of those times. If this tree is NOT representative of Christmas or Christianity, as it usually is not, why have the word there?

[zreosumgame]

45. because it has become for better or worse

a christmas tree, play semantic games all you want to, nevertheless ANY 5 year old who grows up in this country will call it what it is. They will not realize how it was grafted onto the CHRISMAS celebration to make it more palatable to the surviors of the cleansings by the 'peace loving' christers, or how much blood has been spilled over it. it was never a part of the jewish or buddist or muslim pathologies only the christers.

[spoony]

97. "christers"? n/t

[zreosumgame]

145. 'christers' are to me those who will use the name

but will not follow ALL of his 'teachings'. Never mind that they are all re-hashed (in large part) Sufi teaching stories mixed in with re-tellings of old myths and such handed down for many many generations before the Jesus myth was created. Over looking all that, these are the kinds of people who will shout his name while blowing up babies.

[uppityperson]

152. I call those fundamentalists.

It is ok to have strong feelings, but not ok to hurt others that do not have the same feelings.

[zreosumgame]

153. they are the same type of revealed text wacko's

they will extract a few words from a chapter and build an ediface of hate and stupidity from them.

[dysfunctional press]

118. it's called a christmas tree because people put them up at christmas-

but they are NOT religious symbols. a Nativity is a religious display.

learn the difference.

[BoneDaddy]

125. The vast majority of people in this country

are Christian. I, myself, am an ex-Catholic and although I have my problems with institutional Christianity, I also think the total secularization of America is a diservice. Not every religion "deserves" the same amount of attention as Christianity. Why? because America identifies with a Christian perspective overwhelmingly. I would never think of going into a predominantly muslim country or let's say Israel and demand that Christians be represented.

Look, if some public official is fighting to put a nativity scene in a town where there are clearly a number of non-Christians, then I can agree with challenging that. But all of this bullshit about battling x-mas trees is a waste of time that could be spent on more important issues.

[nam78_two]

31. I don't get it either.nt

[uppityperson]

71. trying to replay my train of thought on listening to SeaTac thing

it was removed because a Jewish leader (rabbi?) asked for a menorrah to be put up since the christmas tree designated the Christian holiday of Christmas. So, if it is indeed just a decorated tree and NOT a symbol of the Christian holiday, why have the "christmas" part in the name? For me it is a symbol of a friends and family celebration/holiday, yet I was raised calling it a christmas tree. I don't celebrate Christianity this way, but still have the christ part in the tree name. So my thought proceeded onward to ask myself "self, why do you call it this beyond habit? why do others? I think I'll go ask DUers for their opinions!" And here we are.

Happy holidays.

[SemperEadem]

73. Or why isn't the decorated tree up all winter long

instead of just around the time of commercial Christmas?

I think the decorations should be up all winter long, being as dreary and cold as it is.

It has become a symbol of American commercialism, not religion.

[uppityperson]

75. I leave my decorations up for over a month.

Tree comes down only when it absolutely must, when I am so tired of cleaning up dead needles. I love the lights though. I like taking out the decorations for a while every yr, makes the dark time of yr so much more festive.

[CJCRANE]

11. ...because "Saturnalia tree"

didn't have the same ring to it.

[maxsolomon]

34. Yule is a religious holiday

the Tree, pretty lights, & Mistletoe are all part of the Norse, pagan religion that was replaced by Christianity. it's symbols were co-opted to make the medicine go down easier. Saturnalia doesn't have any of those symbols - it was about other things - master/slave relations.

but Pagan religion is still religion. if we celebrate Yule (and that's really what most of us care about, anyway), then we should embrace it all & allow whatever cockamamy seasonal religious symbol any monotheist wants. Menorah, Creche, i have no clue what Eid symbols are - something in Arabic Script. let the hindus & buddhists (which isn't a religion) & the taoists & the animists & the native americans & the mayans & the incas put up their stuff too.

i could give a crap.

[MrCoffee]

16. because people put them up at Christmas in order to

get other people's panties all in a wad.

[Canuckistanian]

55. Just to mess folks up

No other reason.

[dogday]

17. I call it a Christmas tree because that is how

I was raised, that is how I raised my kids and that is all we know...

Doesn't bother me what it is called really... Call it a Present Tree, that is what it is... I could care less really....

[uppityperson]

67. Me too. This was what I was raised with, self wondering why I STILL call it that

except habit since I am a secular humanist sort of personish person.

[madrchsod]

18. "father christmas"????

another "pagan ritual" used by the "church" to get the great unwashed to accept the catholic religion....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Christmas
Father Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. When was the last time you saw a "holiday tree" or "decorated tree" in spring?

Or summer? Or autumn? Or in any context other than Christmas?

Therein lies the answer to your question.

[uppityperson]

24. Solstice Saturnalia Hannukha Kwaanza Santa-time Winter-celebration

Celebration of the lights, etc. Yeah, they all are around the same time, so why pick 1?

[MrCoffee]

26. who gives a flying fuck?

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

33. I was thinking about words, the power of words

why, how, did a tree become symbolized for Christianity? This is why they were taken down at SeaTac airport, so as to not have religious symbols for 1 religion up and not for the rest. wtf is this tree "christmas"? I do not celebrate Jesus' birth, but do do family things around then, do celebration of light inside/outside, etc, have a highly lit and decorated tree that I still call a "christmas tree" and have been wondering why except habit and custom and perhaps time for me to change. Thank you for participating in my discussion, exploring this idea. Your input is always appreciated.

[QuestionAll...]

47. Jon Stuart had some words...

he said (paraphrasing)
the Christmas tree is the basis for the american economy.

just heard Dobbs quote him. lol.

[smirkymonkey]

81. It is NOT a religious symbol.

Just because "Christmas Tree" has the word Christ in it, doesn't mean it has anything to do with Christ.

Should all men & boys named Christopher change their names so as not to offend non-Christians too?

I am about as anti-religious as they come, but some of us a very attached to our family traditions and we grew up with the wonder of the Christmas Tree as children. All this fuss just makes people resentful and more likely to resist change. It's a very emotional issue for many.

[uppityperson]

83. look up to post #72.

[smirkymonkey]

85. I have also had a number of Jewish friends who have had

Christmas trees and even called them Christmas trees, so I guess the bottom line is not all Jews think the same on this issue.

[uppityperson]

87. Indeed. No "all" of any group think the same, except maybe

fundamentalists who think Their way is the Only Right Way and Everyone Should do the Same or they will make them. Just pondering the question here, not attempting to put a change or onus on anyone.

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. Ask instead...

Why don't Jews set up a "decorated tree" as part of Hannukah? Why isn't a "holiday tree" an important part of Kwaanza? Why didn't the Romans do this during Saturnalia?

Or for that matter, why doesn't Santa deliver presents to Jewish children, or Muslim children? Why is there no record of Santa bringing presents to Roman children?

[uppityperson]

30. Is Santa really St.Nick is the topic of another question.

I am interested in words. That is all. So I was wondering about this term, the whys and wherefors. The tree became part of USA common culture in 1950's, except for (mostly) Germanic heritage families that did it in the old world also. Interesting how it has become the symbol for the Christian celebration, not the overall celebration of winter/lights/solstice.

[CJCRANE]

39. Also Santa's "traditional" red & white

costume is derived from a Coca Cola ad apparently!

[smirkymonkey]

82. Because they've been bad??

:sarcasm:

:rofl:

[Richard Steele]

32. People started calling it that so the Christians would stop killing them for having it?

"Yule? No, we don't celebrate that devil holiday here,
Your Inquisitiveness!
What? Oh, THAT?
That's an ...uh..a CHRISTMAS tree, yeah,
that's the ticket!"

[uppityperson]

35. seriously?

I didn't know that. Being raised liberalchristianchurch my naturally cynical religious outlook led me to believe much negative about many organized religions, skeptical of much. Jesus' birth at solstice? wow. what a surprise.

[Sapere aude]

36. Christmas is really getting to be a turn off anymore.

I didn't go to our local mountain community Christmas thing this year because of the "Live Nativity" scene. God damned religious people trying to force their religion down all our throats. Geez! If you want Christ in Christmas than just do it yourself! Why do you have to make such a public statement of your faith.

Why can't we put up a tree and leave it at that. A decorated tree is a pagan tradition not Christian!

This time of the year means many things to many people. Religions don't own the season. If it is religious to you all well and good but it isn't to me and many other people! More and more I am getting pissed off at religions and wish they would all go away!

[uppityperson]

37. indeed. Make it a decorated tree

[Disturbed]

44. Why name anything if it is not relevant?

The tree has a name and that name has "Christ" in it, does it not? Therefore, it does mean exactly what it says. Of course, the meaning may not be important to a lot of people because they have forgotten what the word "Christmas" means or they do know and don't care what it actually means. Nowdays m,any people go along with Christmas as something other than a celebration of Jesus Christ's birthday, which Dec. 25th probably was not.

[uppityperson]

51. thank you.

I appreciate your taking time to think and respond beyond "who the fuck give a shit". Seriously I appreciate it. sigh.

What you say is along the lines I've been thinking. Why is the name as it is, what do people celebrate, why, etc. Thank you.

[spoony]

98. And I wish anti-theists

with their constant thin-skinned cries of oppression because they are "forced" to see anything Christian (a nativity at Christmas, how dare they!). You are not forced to be a Christian, you are however forced to deal with the fact that they have a right to celebrate the season too. If you're that bothered by ANY public religiosity, the problem is likely an internal one.

[wtmusic]

106. Who the hell does that? Sounds like a RW myth. nt

[spoony]

108. Oh that is was. Look around you. n/t

[Bryn]

105. The Christian nativity story was rooted in a pagan story

I wouldn't trouble myself about Nativity Scene. I just smile whenever I see one.

[Bridget Burke]

116. Great satire!

An almost-perfect imitation of the Far Left Liberal.

"damned religious people trying to force religion down all our thraots." I'm not fond of government-sponsored religion--but I don't think people should be afraid of expressing themselves.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Because It Is A Christian Tradition And They Have A Right To Call It What They Want.

I see no reason whatsoever why they shouldn't be able to call it a Christmas tree, or should consider changing it to something else.

It's a christmas tree. That's what it is. I'm starting to become more and more perplexed as to why there are people who suddenly can't allow the sight of a Christmas tree.

Aren't there just a few more things in life a bit more relevant?

Ahhhhh, to each their own battles I guess.

[Sapere aude]

40. Some don't think it is a Christian tradition. See below

A beautifully decorated evergreen tree, with colored lights ablaze inspires in many warm memories of Christmases long past. The Christmas tree has become one of the most beloved and well known holiday symbols.

Christmas Tree The tradition of a holiday tree has been around since ancient times and has played an important part in winter celebrations for many centuries. Many pagan festivals used trees when honoring their gods and spirits. In Northern Europe the Vikings considered the evergreen a symbol and reminder that the darkness and cold of winter would end and the green of spring would return. The Druids of ancient England and France decorated oak trees with fruit and candles to honor their gods of harvests. At the festival Saturnalia the Romans decorated trees with trinkets and candles.

There have also been many legends surrounding the lore of the Christmas tree. In one story Saint Boniface, an English monk, came upon a group of pagans who had gathered around an oak tree and were preparing to sacrifice a child. To stop the sacrifice and save the child, the Saint flattened the oak tree with one blow of his fist. A small fir sprang up in its place, which Saint Boniface told the pagans was the Tree of Life and represented the life of Christ.

http://www.jinglebellranch.com/orgin.htm


This focal point of a holiday tradition signifies different things to different people. Christmas trees first appeared in the United States during the mid-1800's. Christmas tree myths are traced back to pagan traditions where the evergreen symbolized the presence of life in the dead of winter. The evergreen tree was central to pagan beliefs and its significance in these cultures has been documented by archaeologists and anthropologists to at least 4000 b.c. Pagan beliefs about the orgin of the universe formed a basis for many of today's religious practices, myths, secular customs, legends, and fairy tales. To learn more about this interesting topic, you can read: The Solstice Evergreen by Sheryl Ann Karas.

http://ag.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/christmastrees1.html

[Norrin Radd]

112. They forgot to add that the trees were brought indoors

in winter to act as an air freshener, in addition to the other symbolic reasons.

[uppityperson]

43. argh, no one HAS to respond, I am simply asking if anyone wants to discuss this

I am seriously wondering WHY it is called this since no, it is not just a christian tradition, but goes way back before christians co-opted it. If you don't want to simply ponder this with me, then don't respond. Yes, there are things more relevant like vacuuming my rug. But I had a thought I wanted to share and see what others thought. Sorry if I intruded on anyone, not meaning to cast any negativeness but simply thinking and pondering and wanted to discuss with people that might also be interestd.

There are people who don't like christmas trees because the "christmas" part, feeling 1 religion is being shoved into their faces. Trying to figure out why is it a "christmas" tree, why this name is of enough importance to cause people to feel this way, if **I** should perhaps call it something else.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2896819#2896932
This is a good posting on another link about this topic.

trof
5. OK. Color me 'stupid', but

Is a Christmas tree exclusively a Christian religious symbol?

OK, we call it a Christmas tree, because that's when we put them up.
But consider these lines from a 'History of the Christmas tree' website:

"King Tut never saw a Christmas tree, but he would have understood the tradition which traces back long before the first Christmas, says David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture with the Springfield Extension Center. The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.

The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life.

Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits.

Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions."
http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html

I've never thought of our tree as a religious symbol.
Just a seasonal one.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here?
:shrug:

Having said that, I agree with your observations.
"Get a life."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. My Apologies For Your Thinking I Was Gearing My Comments Towards You Directly.

I see my original post was too vague and could've been misinterpreted.

I was gearing my comments more towards those like the Rabbi who caused the stink to begin with or others who passionately argue against christmas trees or their public display, or think simply having to look at a christmas tree is having religion shoved down their throats.

Your OP was perfectly fine in its tone and inquiry and those comments weren't direct ones towards you personally.

[uppityperson]

52. Got it, and I agree with post #41 right below this one (now)

"I find it absolutely hilarious that the fundies are fighting so hard to keep a pagan symbol" The Rabbi asked to put up a menorrah. That is all. No stink, just that request. I agree with the person who called in that the Port of Seattle running SeaTac airport is in the business of getting people from 1 place to another, not in the business of decorating. And think it would be ok to put up other decorations also.

[CTyankee]

127. For many Jews, it is having tax money pay for installing and maintaining

Christmas trees in public areas that is the problem. And many Jews don't agree with the notion of putting up a public menorah either. They see it as a transgression of church/state separation either way. No problem with private displays of Christmas trees, menorahs or any other religous symbol.

What is so wrong with keeping religious symbols to non-public areas? My neighborhood's homes and churches are ablaze at night with decorations and lights. I think it is wonderful, an expression of our freedom of religion. Let's just not force our non Christian fellow citizens to pay for public displays of a relgion not their own!

[LeftCoast]

41. I find it absolutely hilarious that the fundies are fighting so hard to keep a pagan symbol

LOL

[davidwparker]

42. it has nothing to do with religion to me; just a social thing. From

the text, the Messiah was born in the Spring.

From one show that I was watching -- you know how they come out around Christmas and Easter -- recreations of the sky around that time have it around 17 Apr 4 B.C. (or 7 B.C., my memory fault).

[ejbrush]

46. Oh, Tannenbaum...

Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
wie grün sind deine Blätter!
Du grünst nicht nur zur Sommerszeit,
nein auch im Winter, wenn es schneit
Oh Tannenbaum, oh Tannenbaum,
wie grün sind deine Blätter!

(Oh fir tree, oh fir tree,
your sheets are so green!
You do not only become green at the summer time,
no also in the winter, when it snows
Oh fir tree, oh fir tree,
your sheets are so green!)

Call it what you like, my frickin' tannenbaum is going up right in front of the frickin' window for all the neighbors to see. Right next to the leg lamp.

[Raine]

48. Christians popularized

it that's why it called a Christmas tree. JMO :shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Yeah, but if they put an 8 ft. menorah up, next they'll have to put up an 900 foot Jesus.

Wasn't there an "MC 900 Ft Jesus"?

[smirkymonkey]

84. Here you go.....

Now THAT's a religious symbol.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. No...

THIS is!

[uppityperson]

95. OMG a Giant BOB!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

100. He's not giant

we're just all small.

[uppityperson]

101. HE is, we are.

bow down before Bob

[smirkymonkey]

123. Awesome!

:headbang:

[ikojo]

53. If it is not religious in nature why not just call it

a pine tree with decorations? Why not leave it up year round?

[KamaAina]

60. Same reason the Easter bunny is called that, I guess.

:shrug:

[joe_sixpack]

64. Good point

more pagan symbols - eggs and bunnies were originally fertility symbols - coopted for another religion's holy day.

[BlooInBloo]

61. Because it USED to have a relation to religion. Duh.

[uppityperson]

62. Why do non-Christians continue to call it that?

[joe_sixpack]

65. Maybe

because we modern humans are notorious creatures of habit. Why do we still sell hotdog buns in packages of eight, but hotdogs themselves in packages of ten?

[uppityperson]

68. To have 2 to feed to the dog. Habit indeed.

[Norrin Radd]

113. My guess is that it has a meter that has a nice ring to it,

which makes it memorable and fun to say.


Christmas Tree ( krĭs'məs ) ( trē )

It starts with one stressed syllable, and ends with two unstressed syllables; this type of poetic foot in English is called a dactyl. Song lyrics in English are often written in dactyls, because they have a dancing, twirling, waltzing rhythm.


Holiday Tree ( hŏl'ĭ-dā' ) ( trē )

This has two--dimeter--trochees (a trochee is one stressed syllable followed by one unstressed). Trochaic meter sounds like marching.


Decorated Tree ( děk'ə-rāt'tĭd ) ( trē )

One trochee followed by one dactyl. Sort of inbetween the marching and the waltzing, a more complicated dance.


Note that the German "Tannenbaum" seems to have the same meter as "Christmas Tree," though I could be wrong as I don't speak it.

[bloom]

63. It's wanting to have it both ways.

It's not a "Christmas tree" if you want to argue for your right to have it up in a public/gov't place.

It IS a "Christmas tree" for people (like O'Reilly) who want everyone to accept "Christmas" out in public - like at the Walmart (they damn well better call it "Christmas", by God :sarcasm: )



I think it would be a vast improvement to just consider it a "holiday" tree. Or just encourage everyone to plant trees and forget about it.

[Buzz Clik]

79. It's a Christmas tree, and there's nothing wrong with it.

As with just about every other college in this country, ours has been putting up a tree in the Student Union for roughly a century. Two years ago, they started calling it a Holiday Tree for some reason. After some gentle prodding, they went back to Christmas Tree, and members of just about all other religions on campus applauded the change.

All points of view are welcome here -- it's not a matter of all religions (or lack thereof) being excluded. They are all included. I like it.

[LittleClarkie]

91. It was co-oped by the Christians

They did alot of that back in the day. They'd take a pagan ritual, and give it a Christian meaning. December 25 is another example, since it was the date of a pagan festival that the early Church was trying to compete with. So they made Jesus' birthday that day, even though there's no evidence that it was on Dec 25.

Such things are traditions more than doctrine, I guess you'd say.

[Zhade]

96. "even though there's no evidence that it was on Dec 25"

Heck, there's no evidence there was ever a birth of Jesus, period.

[spoony]

109. save it for the r/t cellar. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

111. I thought there was some evidence of a historical Jesus even if you don't believe

he was the son of God. But whatever. That's not the point I was trying to make.

But did you get the point I was trying to make? The date of Dec. 25 was picked because if fell on a pagan holiday, not for any religious reason. The tree was co-oped from a pagan tradition.

It's the argument I'll use when people go against Halloween. If Halloween bothers you because it's full of pagan rituals, then why are Easter and Christmas exempt. They're full of pagan rituals too.

[zulchzulu]

92. It's a Holiday Pinus Glabra!

Terminated even...

[Bill McBlueState]

93. people call it a Christmas tree out of habit

But anyone should feel free to call it whatever she wants, as long as the meaning is clear.

I think it's the perfect imagery for the winter solstice. So I like to call it a solstice tree. We take a tree that stays green throughout the winter, reminding us of more pleasant seasons, and decorate it with lights, reminiscent of the fires people light to stay warm in long winter nights. In a figurative way, our decorative lights could be seen as lending the sun the strength to begin its climb to higher declinations.

This kind of outlook is based on celestial motions we can all see, and it doesn't require us to believe in any particular gods.

[Norwood]

99. To each their own

I grew up calling it a christmas tree and chances are I'll probably continue to call it that, if someone wants to call it something else then hey have at it! I dunno its just not that much of an issue to me, this whole war on christmas is pointless.

One shouldnt be forced to say merry christmas or prohibited from calling the tree a christmas tree. Call it what you want to call it and leave it at that. Happy holidays, happy Solstice,merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah and happy Kwanzaa in no particular order!

[gravity]

102. Christmas is both a secular and a christian holiday

Christian = Jesus and nativity scenes.
secular = santa and christmas trees.

There is a clear distinction here. Thats why public places can have reindeer and christmas trees out, but no nativity scenes.

Calling a christmas tree by any other name is just way too PC. Hearing a holiday tree just makes me cringe, it just sterilizes the meaning of the holiday. People nowadays people are just too overlly sensitive, and arguing over the name of christmas is stupid. I feel like those who argue against calling it a christmas tree are just doing it for the sake of arguing. You guys need to choose your battles.

[uppityperson]

103. how about an x-mas tree?

So they are called christmas trees because they have been? Tradition? I am not trying to argue about the name, not saying change it, just trying to get ideas as to why we call it this. Thanks.

"you guys"?

[gravity]

104. because the holiday is called christmas

I know the name came from christ, but it doesn't mean that we should change the name of it. Its our language.

I don't care if people says happy holidays instead of merry christmas, because that period incorperates many holidays. Not calling a christmas tree a christmas tree is just over the top. I hope that everyone in our country would be mature to handle this.

[sandnsea]

107. Because it IS a Christmas Tree

and BFD about it. Somebody who grew up Jewish informed me yesterday that he sees the Menorah the same way I see a Christmas Tree. It's a religious symbol - or not. I didn't know that. So whatever, trees or menorahs or santa or kinara - just put up whatever people want and get on with enjoying your friends and family. Good grief, life is too short for this stupidity.

[spoony]

110. Makes too much sense to be implemented, I'm afraid. eom

[uppityperson]

137. Questioning usage of language is stupidity?

I don't think so. I like to figure out language because yes, language can matter. Why are the words c* and n* offensive? They are only words. Thinking about things is important, the whys, helps to understand behavior and I like talking about these sorts of things.

[sandnsea]

139. Controversy for the sake of controversy

is stupid. Yes. It's a Christmas Tree. For obvious reasons. The end.

[uppityperson]

141. questioning myself and asking other DUers what they think is what I am trying to do

THAT is what I am asking and why.

[sandnsea]

143. And I told you what I think n/t

[Norrin Radd]

114. Christmas and Christmas trees are popular in Japan,

where Christians are minority.

http://tanutech.com/japan/jxmas.html

http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/culture/christmas.html

[Bridget Burke]

119. The trees are back up in Seattle.

And the airport plans to put up a Menorah next year.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/nation/4395104.html

By the way--the Christmas tree was introduced to England by Queen Victoria & her German Hubby. Then it became the fashion in the USA & elsewhere. It's called the Christmas Tree because it appears at Christmas. Of course it has no religious signficance; but it is identified with the Christian holiday.

Why wasn't there a menorah in Seattle already? We have "public" menorahs here in Houston Damned Texas.

[dysfunctional press]

120. do you also consider the Easter Bunny to be a religious symbol?

if not, why not?

christmas trees are called christmas trees because they are traditionally put up at christmas- but they are NOT "religious symbols"...are you aware of ANY churches that have a stained glass representation of a christmas tree, or any other representation of a christmas tree all year round? chuches and cathedrals are CHOCK FULL of the various symbols of their religion- show me one that includes christmas trees on a permanent year-round basis.

the seattle rabbi has his head up his ass- a nativity is a religious symbol, a menorah is a religious symbol, a christmas tree is NOT a religious symbol.

[zanne]

124. I still say...

"Festivus for the rest of us"! Got a pole?

[Freddie Stubbs]

130. For many Americans, Christmas is not a religious holiday

It is time where people exchange presents and eat big meals.

[uppityperson]

138. I know, that is it for me, along with other family/friend festivities

so I got wondering why "I" call it a christmas tree still and wanted to ask. Thanks for your input and happy whatever.

[AngryAmish]

133. We need to ban these -fuck the KKKristians

[ComerPerro]

142. Let me explain it clearly for you. It is part of a religious ceremony

The tree is a rune or reagent. It is a necessary part of the worship.

You see, true-believers put up and decorate a tree, and decorate their house. A typical part of the summoning ceremony includes setting out the reagents milk and cookies, as a sacrifice. Then, once that is done, they use the power of the tree to invoke the power of Claus, and they summon the God of materialism, Santa.

If the summon is successful, and if Santa is pleased with the offerings made to him by the tree and the various relics around the house, he will bless the household with the gift of material goods.

[uppityperson]

146. Indeed! Merry Santamas!

Does the type of cookie matter? I heard carrots help also.

[ComerPerro]

151. type of cookie does matter. Its in the bible

[JNelson6563]

144. Mine's a Solstice Tree

The evergreen is something that is fresh, green and alive even through the darkest of winter days, with lights on it, a fitting nod to the coming of the light that the solstice brings IMO.

Julie