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DID CIA KILL RFK? - Screenwriter Finds Evidence Implicating 3 CIA Officers (Guardian)

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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:30 AM
Original message
DID CIA KILL RFK? - Screenwriter Finds Evidence Implicating 3 CIA Officers (Guardian)
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 12:35 AM by kpete
Screenwriter Finds Evidence Implicating 3 CIA Officers In RFK Assassination...
The Guardian | Shane O'Sullivan | November 19, 2006 10:40 PM


Did the CIA kill Bobby Kennedy?

In 1968, Robert Kennedy seemed likely to follow his brother, John, into the White House. Then, on June 6, he was assassinated - apparently by a lone gunman. But Shane O'Sullivan says he has evidence implicating three CIA agents in the murder

Monday November 20, 2006
The Guardian


At first, it seems an open-and-shut case. On June 5 1968, Robert Kennedy wins the California Democratic primary and is set to challenge Richard Nixon for the White House. After midnight, he finishes his victory speech at the Ambassador hotel in Los Angeles and is shaking hands with kitchen staff in a crowded pantry when 24-year-old Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan steps down from a tray-stacker with a "sick, villainous smile" on his face and starts firing at Kennedy with an eight-shot revolver.

As Kennedy lies dying on the pantry floor, Sirhan is arrested as the lone assassin. He carries the motive in his shirt-pocket (a clipping about Kennedy's plans to sell bombers to Israel) and notebooks at his house seem to incriminate him. But the autopsy report suggests Sirhan could not have fired the shots that killed Kennedy. Witnesses place Sirhan's gun several feet in front of Kennedy, but the fatal bullet is fired from one inch behind. And more bullet-holes are found in the pantry than Sirhan's gun can hold, suggesting a second gunman is involved. Sirhan's notebooks show a bizarre series of "automatic writing" - "RFK must die RFK must be killed - Robert F Kennedy must be assassinated before 5 June 68" - and even under hypnosis, he has never been able to remember shooting Kennedy. He recalls "being led into a dark place by a girl who wanted coffee", then being choked by an angry mob. Defence psychiatrists conclude he was in a trance at the time of the shooting and leading psychiatrists suggest he may have be a hypnotically programmed assassin.

Three years ago, I started writing a screenplay about the assassination of Robert Kennedy, caught up in a strange tale of second guns and "Manchurian candidates" (as the movie termed brainwashed assassins). As I researched the case, I uncovered new video and photographic evidence suggesting that three senior CIA operatives were behind the killing. I did not buy the official ending that Sirhan acted alone, and started dipping into the nether-world of "assassination research", crossing paths with David Sanchez Morales, a fearsome Yaqui Indian.

Morales was a legendary figure in CIA covert operations. According to close associate Tom Clines, if you saw Morales walking down the street in a Latin American capital, you knew a coup was about to happen. When the subject of the Kennedys came up in a late-night session with friends in 1973, Morales launched into a tirade that finished: "I was in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch and I was in Los Angeles when we got the little bastard." From this line grew my odyssey into the spook world of the 60s and the secrets behind the death of Bobby Kennedy.

more at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1952393,00.html
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. CIA used Cubans pissed at Bay of Pigs to Off Both Kennedys? Maybe.
However, it would have to go higher than just the Cubans themselves. The Cubans never controlled US domestic or foreign policy, they were only used as "plumbers" to do the dirty work. I would assume that they were used by people who feared the Kennedy charisma and wanted them out of politics to make way for other people. Was George HW Bush in the CIA way back then? Or are we to speculate that it was someone stumping for NIxon and an escalation of the war in Southeast Asia?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Here is a link
http://www.tarpley.net/bush8b.htm

>>>>snip
The review offered so far of George Bush's activities during the late 1950's and early 1960's is almost certainly incomplete in very important respects. There is good reason to believe that Bush was engaged in something more than just the oil business during those years. Starting about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion in the spring of 1961, we have the first hints that Bush, in addition to working for Zapata Offshore, may also have been a participant in certain covert operations of the US intelligence community.

Such participation would certainly be coherent with George's role in the Prescott Bush, Skull and Bones, and Brown Brothers, Harriman networks. During the twentieth century, the Skull and Bones/Harriman circles have always maintained a sizable and often decisive presence inside the intelligence organizations of the State Department, the Treasury Department, the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Office of Strategic Services, and the Central Intelligence Agency. Indeed, the Harriman and related Anglophile financier factions of Wall Street have generally regarded those parts of the state apparatus dealing with intelligence and covert operations as their own very special property, property which had to be kept seeded with control networks in order to be effectively steered from above. For George Bush to interface with the intelligence community while ostensibly engaged in his business career would be coherent with that well-established pattern.

A body of leads has been assembled which suggests that George Bush may have been associated with the CIA at some time before the autumn of 1963. According to Joseph McBride of The Nation, "a source with close connections to the intelligence community confirms that Bush started working for the agency in 1960 or 1961, using his oil business as a cover for clandestine activities." 1 By the time of the Kennedy assassination, we have an official FBI document which refers to "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency," and despite official disclaimers there is every reason to think that this is indeed the man in the White House today. The mystery of George Bush as a possible covert operator hinges on four points, each one of which represents one of the great political and espionage scandals of postwar American history. These four cardinal points are:

1. The abortive Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, launched on April 16-17, 1961, prepared with the assistance of the CIA's "Miami Station" (also known under the code name JM/WAVE). After the failure of the amphibious landings of Brigade 2506, Miami station, under the leadership of Theodore Shackley, became the focus for Operation Mongoose, a series of covert operations directed against Castro, Cuba, and possibly other targets.

2. The assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963, and the coverup of those responsible for this crime.

3. The Watergate scandal, beginning with an April, 1971 visit to Miami, Florida by E. Howard Hunt on the tenth anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion to recruit operatives for the White House Special Investigations Unit (the "Plumbers" and later Watergate burglars) from among Cuban-American Bay of Pigs veterans.

4. The Iran-contra affair, which became a public scandal during October-November 1986, several of whose central figures, such as Felix Rodriguez, were also veterans of the Bay of Pigs.

George Bush's role in both Watergate and the October surprise/Iran-contra complex will be treated in detail at later points in this book. Right now it is important to see that thirty years of covert operations, in many respects, form a single continuous whole. This is especially true in regard to the dramatis personae. Georgie Anne Geyer points to the obvious in a recent book: "...an entire new Cuban cadre now emerged from the Bay of Pigs. The names Howard Hunt, Bernard Barker, Rolando Martinez, Felix Rodriguez and Eugenio Martinez would, in the next quarter century, pop up, often decisively, over and over again in the most dangerous American foreign policy crises. There were Cubans flying missions for the CIA in the Congo and even for the Portuguese in Africa; Cubans were the burglars of Watergate; Cubans played key roles in Nicaragua, in Irangate, in the American move into the Persian Gulf." 2 Felix Rodriguez tells us that he was infiltrated into Cuba with the other members of the "Grey Team" in conjunction with the Bay of Pigs landings; this is the same man we will find directing the contra supply effort in central American during the 1980's, working under the direct supervision of Don Gregg and George Bush. 3 Theodore Shackley, the JM/WAVE station chief, will later show up in Bush's 1979-80 presidential campaign.

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madhoosier Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. Zapata, Houston and Barbara
At the time of the Bay of Pigs where did George H.W. Bush live? Houston. What was the name of his oil drilling company? Zapata. And his wife's name? Barbara.

Heres some interesting stuff about George H. W. Bush and the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapata_Corporation

The CIA code name for the Bay of Pigs operation? Operation Zapata, the CIA code names for two of the ships used to transport the exiled Cubans? Barbara and Houston.

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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
62. Poppy Bush did it
Because the Kennedys stood in the way of his own vainglorious ambitions. There's no possible way that Bush ever could have become president had RFK survived and been able to lead the country down the path that it should have gone. Kennedy threatened to shut down the entire Military-Industrial complex, however, and too many bloodthirsty rats like Bush had too much to lose.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
78. smoke is a prime symptom of fire
:kick:
Don Busholino--- and the made men who kiss his ring. Well, his loopy-ass son has put the truck in the ditch and Daddy *may* let him spend a night in jail for it. But he will *definitely* take his truck back.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
75. Ehrlichman's "Witness To Power" shows Nixon knew RFK was
in for it when Bobby put his hat into the ring in '68.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
92. See post #81 by LeahD for text of the Nixon quote in the book.....nt
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stansnark Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. thane eugene cesar killed him
everyone knows that
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. again, i must point you to Operation 40
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kimpossible Donating Member (785 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. Operation 40?
Don't think I've heard of that. Link please?
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Here's some information
Operation 40 was a CIA-sponsored undercover operation in the early 1960s, which was active in the Caribbean (including Cuba), Central America, and Mexico. Created by US President Eisenhower in March 1960 after the 1959 Cuban Revolution and presided by vice-president Richard M. Nixon, it included people such as Frank Sturgis (who would later become one of the Watergate burglar), Felix Rodriguez (a CIA agent who later hunted down Che Guevara), Luis Posada Carriles (now held in the US under illegal immigration charges, he is demanded by Venezuela for his key role in the execution of the 1976 Cubana Flight 455 bombing), Orlando Bosch (founder of the CORU counter-revolutionary organization, which organized Chilean former minister Orlando Letelier's murder in 1976), Rafael 'Chi Chi' Quintero, Virgilio Paz Romero, Pedro Luis Diaz Lanz, Bernard Barker, etc. Members took part in the April 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion directed against Fidel Castro's regime.


Here's the guys in the Operation, among those pictured are Felix Rodriguez, Porter Goss, Barry Seal.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. It goes back further -- to the overthrow of Arbenz
Arbenz was overthrown in 1954, and that (along with the coup against Mossadegh in 1953) was the first real manifestation of the special operations power of the CIA.
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/06-07-05/discussion.cgi.55.html

The overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala is particularly interesting. This was very much a OPC operation. It included the following cast of operators: Frank Winser, Tracy Barnes, Richard Bissell, David Atlee Phillips, Rip Robertson, David Morales and E. Howard Hunt.

Wisner was also able to use Operation Mockingbird to keep the true story out of the American media. For example, people like Henry Luce were called into to censor stories that appeared too sympathetic towards the plight of Arbenz. (Journalists working on Time Magazine were shocked to see him taking out articles that had already been approved by the editor). Wisner was also able to use the CIA to stop honest journalists from travelling to Guatemala. . . .

It is no surprise that when Bissell began planning the overthrow of Fidel Castro he called on the same team who had successfully overthrown Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. Operation Mockingbird was also used to ensure the right sort of coverage in the American media.

Of the people named in the first paragraph quoted above, David Atlee Phillips and E. Howard Hunt are widely suspected of involvement in the JFK assassination, so it's interesting to see Morales' name in with theirs.

As the article makes clear, it's simplistic to say "the CIA" killed either of the Kennedy's. There was a close relationship between JFK and the more liberal wing of the CIA. But there are certain names within the CIA that come up over and over again -- particularly in the Arbenz-Bay of Pigs-Watergate sequence of events -- and those are the ones on whom suspicion regularly focuses.

And now that I look at it, there's a lot more of interest in that same article. For example, it suggests that Joe McCarthy was brought down when he started attacking some of the more left-wing CIA-related figures. It's enough to make me wonder if there's been a fifty-year war ongoing within the CIA, of which the Plame affair is only the most recent manifestation.
J. Edgar Hoover grew very concerned with the power that the OPC and the Georgetown Crowd was having over political life. He carried out investigations into their past. It did not take him long to discover that some of them had been active in left-wing politics in the 1930s. This information was passed to Joe McCarthy who started making attacks on people like Dean Acheson, William Bundy, Charles Thayer, Paul Nitze, Chips Bohlen and Cord Meyer. Hoover did not realise what he was taking on. Wisner unleashed Operation Mockingbird on McCarthy. Drew Pearson, Joe Alsop, Jack Anderson, Walter Lippmann and Ed Murrow all went into attack mode and McCarthy was destroyed (although the monster he had created went on).

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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
63. Good Old Barry Seal
Of the Cocaine for money for arms for Contra triangle.

He used to land his planeloads of cocaine just down the road from here I believe, the Mena, Airport, a small airport with a loooong runway just right for landing CIA drug running.

People probably won't like my theory (and I love Bill Clinton) Clinton turned a blind eye to what was happening at Mena, and that is how he was able to run for president. I have this theory that we haven't had a president that wasn't approved by the CIA prior to running. Of course, I'm sitting here wearing a fabulous tinfoil hat!

:tinfoilhat:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
65. Kiddin? -- who didn't the CIA kill??
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. Welcome to DU -- How about a link or some additional info? (n/t)
:hi:
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. I try to be as critical as possible of such "conspiracy stories".
But by now, I'm 100% convinced that the JFK execution was along the lines indicated in Oliver Stome's movie.

But that article "looked" very convincing. It contained enough specific leads for an evening of Googling.

pnorman
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I think that is the closest to the truth as I have seen
And Donald Sutherland's character sent chills down my spine when he explained it--it sounded all too familiar when speaking about the National Guard troops were ordered to "stand down" in Dallas that day.
Kind of reminds me of a crisp autumn day in 2001 when our military was told to "stand down"...
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
95. Read Joan Mellen's book A Farewell To Justice
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 07:06 PM by EVDebs
www.joanmellen.net

Everyone is now admitting to the intelligence agencies coverups, Robert Blakey and Gerald Posner...better late than never, eh ?

JFK Assassination
http://hometown.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/JOANNIDESgeorgeCIA2003.html

and

Celebrated authors demand that the CIA come clean on JFK assassination--
Gerald Posner, Norman Mailer and Don DeLillo back lawsuit to open secret files on CIA mystery man tied to Lee Harvey Oswald.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/12/17/joannides/index_np.html

"""The agency is stonewalling," said Posner, whose bestselling book supported the Warren Commission's finding that Oswald, alone and unaided, killed Kennedy. "It's a perfect example of why the public has so little trust in the CIA's willingness to be truthful.""

This laughable quote from an author that takes verbatim the words of Ruth Paine and Priscilla Johnson McMillan !

See Priscilla Johnson McMillan and the CIA
http://www.jfk-info.com/pjm-cia.htm

And interview at Frontline on PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/interviews/mcmillan.html

Begs the question, 'who is Priscilla Johnson McMillan', now, doesn't it ?



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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I bought that damn Mellon book on a DU recommendation, a while back!
I found it to be the most INFURIATING mass of poorly connected facts, factoids, and wooly-headed "clever and insightful observations" that I had ever seen until then. But I'll dig it out (from wherever I had disgustedly tossed it) and have another go at it. I'll also check out those other links.

pnorman
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
101. What ? None of this was in the Warren Report
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 02:02 PM by EVDebs
A 26 Volume mass of "poorly connected facts, factoids, and wooly-headed" BS put together with the full non-cooperation of our own intelligence services.

Garrison was right all along. Mellen confirms and now that it's coming out even Posner and Blakey have to C.Y.A. Her book might be a difficult read but the facts stand for themselves. We OWE Joan Mellen, big time.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. Eugene Victor Debs was always a sacred name to me,
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 06:49 PM by pnorman
so your screen-name commands my attention. I'll dig that book out from whereever I'd tossed it, and give it another go.

In Solidarity, pnorman
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. She mentions George Johannides/Joannides
pages 55-56, 57, 345, and 383. This information appears to be the key to the Posner and Blakey egg-on-face.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Thanks, I'll keep looking for that damn book!
I am NOT going to order another copy! You had described it as a "difficult read". My initial impression was that it was very difficult bordering on impossible, to get from pointA to pointB without having to go wade through an elaborate display of her "warm, caring, and insightful" nature. At my advanced age, I have little patience with such long and drawn-out intellectual strip-teases. The subject matter is FAR too important for that.

pnorman
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #95
100. Posner questioning?
I had no idea- thanks for the links.
:dem:
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Yes. You're welcome and also check out post 74 and 90
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 02:01 PM by EVDebs
LeahD found the Ehrlichman reminiscence of Nixon when RFK decided to run in '68.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. 2 words, Thom Hartman
thomhartman.com
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. yes, thom hartmann
i keep posting the question in these threads- who has read thom hartmann's book ultimate sacrifice, and what do you think? i never get a reply.
i am not that deep into this stuff, but i really want to know what the folks who are think.
so, again, thom hartmann??
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #43
82. from what i have gathered:
(i haven't actually read the book myself)

The case that Hartmann presents covers only part of the evidence. He may have added some new info from recently released govt docs, but afaik it does not refute older evidence.
Hartmann has yet to explain how the mafia and Cubans managed to do what was done to enable the assassination and how they covered it up; ie how they managed to get the National Guard to stand down, and how they created the Warren Commission.
Another loose end is the fact that anti-Castro elements were involved in the (JFK) assassination and how that fits with involvement of the Cuban government. Castro had nothing to gain and a lot to lose from JFK's death - anti-Castro elements had everything to gain.

Hartmann's story is a sub-set of the scenario that has been out there for decades now (and for which there is ample evidence). Yes, certain Cubans (the Cuban branch of the mafia) and the mafia were involved (they to hate Castro), but also the CIA and various other govt agencies.

An argument can be made that the mob and certain Cuban elements had (have) infiltrated the US govt so deeply that they could do all that they did to enable and to cover up the assassination - but if that's the case then is it quite inaccurate to say that for instance the CIA was not involved.

Lastly, there is concrete evidence showing that others besides the mafia and certain Cubans stood to gain from JFK's death: White House tapes reveal that JFK did in fact want to pull out of Vietnam.
http://www.whitehousetapes.org/clips/1963_1002_vietnam_am/
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
93. LAPD's Special Unit Senator was headed by a CIA guy named Pena
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 02:35 PM by EVDebs
as described in Robert D. Morrow's book "The Senator Must Die" pages 209-210:

"...A former LAPD officer named Lt. Manuel Pena was chosen to head it. Pena mysteriously appeared back at LAPD after having retired from the force in November 1967....

"FBI agent Robert LaJeunesse, whom Turner (San Fernando Valley Times reporter William Turner) had known for years before in the FBI, confided to him that Pena had left the LAPD for a 'special training unit' at a CIA base in Virginia--Camp Peary, Virginia, known inside the Agency as "The Farm". In fact, said LaJeunesse, Pena's departure in November 1967 had not been a one-shot deal. The detective had already performed some special assignments for the CIA in Central and South America, working with CIA operative Dan A. Mitrione, a former Indiana police chief...

"Further confirmation of Pena's CIA involvement came from his brother, a high-school teacher, who casually mentioned to television newsman Stan Bohrman how proud Manny was of his services for the CIA over the years."

Morrow thought that a Pakistani with a camera was the shooter, however, and this book is basically "banned" in the USofA, although I believe some libraries still have copies.

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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #82
104. One month later, Nov 1 Diem was assassinated
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 05:42 PM by EVDebs
And the cables are now "safely" ensconsced in Texas at the Gerald Ford Library, Univ of TX
see

NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER. SAIGON EMBASSY FILES KEPT BY AMBASSADOR MARTIN

http://www.ford.utexas.edu/library/guides/Finding%20Aids/Saigon%20Embassy%20Files%20Kept%20by%20Ambassador%20Graham%20Martin.htm

""In January 1978, the North Carolina State Police found a cache of classified documents in the trunk of a car that had been stolen from former U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam Graham A. Martin. They turned the documents over to the FBI. The documents were embassy files Martin had taken with him when he evacuated Saigon on April 29, 1975, just hours before the city fell to the Communists. The Justice Department, in considering prosecuting Martin for misuse of classified documents, sent copies of the files to the National Security Council for a damage assessment. The copies remained in NSC files until 1982, when the NSC determined that they should have been considered presidential papers and sent them to the Ford Library.""

Martin stole the files and cables and put them in the Rome, Italy, DOJ safe at the embassy for some reason. When the files returned to the US in Martin's Fiat, the car was stolen and subsequently the top secret documents ended up in schoolchildren's hands. Luckily a teacher retrieved the materials.

Were these cables put into the E Howard Hunt 'fake cable' plan that Nixon had planned ?

Martin was apppointed US ambassador to Thailand on or about Nov 1, 1963, by JFK. Later, Nixon makes him US ambassador to Italy. Martin was a good friend of WashPost's editor Ben Bradlee and served in France while the Marseille dock strikes were being broken up by the CIA. Martin was 'present at the creation' of the CIA.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
56. Thom Hartman killed RFK?
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 06:28 PM by rucky
He'll never get Franken's spot with that on his resume.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
89. Maybe it was in self-defense
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. all I know is this: People who very publicly got in Nixon's way were murdered
JFK beat him in a "stolen" election, RFK was mounting a powerful campaign and probably would have cleaned his clock, MLK Jr was preaching social unrest and upset a lot of Nixon's base.

Hell, Nixon even tried to have John Lennon deported. And what happened to him? Oh yeah, gunned down (not that I am blaming Nixon for Lennon's death, just want to get that out there before someone mentions it by saying, "not only that, he was killed too")
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. People who got in Nixon's way?
You have a point, and Nixon was a pissant tool for far more powerful people. Watch as Prescott Bush anoints Tricky Dick:

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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. The Hinkleys and the Bushs were more than...
just casual acquaintances too. Spooky.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
86. That's one creepy photo! The world would have been a lot better off without them. n/t
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bigmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
54. Don't forget George Wallace!
Can't split the rightwing vote if you're not in the race!
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Ammonium Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. The lady in the poka dot dress
Please please everyone go to google and watch JFK II - The Bush Connection. Then go and watch JFK Jr. Both are great pieces by John Hankey. They lay out in full detail who killed JFK and his son, they name names and you know who they are.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. Then why is Teddy Kennedy still a Senator? n/t
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volstork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Ted is the outlier,
the son who didn't measure up. He assassinated himself at Chappaquiddick, and continued to do so at the bottom of a bottle through the 70s. Had he been a serious contender for the presidency, he probably would have been killed, too. A senator can only do so much to disrupt the status quo; once he was no longer a "threat" of becoming president, he was left alone.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. He makes a convenient nemesis too...
I am however very worried about Joe, and his partnership with Chavez.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
87. Oh, and well you should be. Robert Kennedy was a friend of Cesar Chavez!
:sarcasm:

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Ted Kennedy survived a fatal plane crash in 1964.
The "accident" killed the pilot and an aide. Sen. Birch Bayh (Sen. Evan Bayh's father) also survived and helped keep Ted Kennedy alive until rescue. It was winter and because of the severity of Kennedy's injuries, Bayh probably saved his life.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #46
79. No liberal Dems or whistleblowers should ever fly
I've thought this since Wellstone & JFK jr
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #79
94. "Ted Kennedy" is already on the no-fly list nt
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. Neocons are gonna start to get that whole...
"law of unintended consequences" thing pretty soon.
Tedddy never flying again makes my heart soar.
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Ammonium Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
61. Come on.
You think his car ended up in the water on it's own?

Someone drugged him and drove his car into that water.

Remember the plane crash he was in which left Ted with a broken back and killed everyone else on board.

He was lucky...
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
60. The lady in the polka dot dress was a mysterious figure in the RFK
assassination.

She was noticed by three different people, first talking to Sirhan Sirhan and then by a campaign worker and a cop while leaving the Ambassador Hotel by the back way.

The young campaign worker was pressured into recanting her story.

Follow this link to CourtTV's website:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/assassins/kennedy/1.html
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. It seems obvious to me now that all three antiwar leaders--JFK, MLK & RFK--
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 02:54 AM by Peace Patriot
were killed by assassins in the pay of U.S. corporate war profiteers.

1963: JFK did not agree with the CIA invasion of Cuba and refused to support it; later, he managed to defuse the Cuban missile crisis without nuclear war; his speech to the UN on nuclear disarmament and world peace at a time when the Russians were pounding tables and saying "We'll bury you!" was extraordinary for its time; his space program in particular--and the unusual project of putting a man on the moon--signaled a new vision for the U.S. role in the world, to which young people were especially responsive, of technical expertise and intelligence used for peaceful purposes instead of war; shortly before he died, JFK signed executive orders recalling U.S. military "advisers" from Vietnam.

Bang, bang. Shoot, shoot.

Shortly after JFK's death, his successor LBJ rescinded those executive orders, and, within a year, a phony incident was cooked up, in the Gulf of Tonkin, falsely alleging that the Vietnamese had attacked U.S. forces, which was used in Congress to escalate the Vietnam situation into a full scale war. Tens of thousands of people were slaughtered in the next several years, well below the radar of the American people until around 1966-67.

1967: MKL, a famous and charismatic civil rights leader, was advised not to associate the civil rights movement with the anti-Vietnam War movement, and held off for several years, but finally gave a powerful speech--one of the best speeches ever given--at the Riverside Church in NY, publicly opposing the Vietnam War for the first time. One year later...

Bang, bang. Shoot, shoot.

1968: The same year, RFK, a "cold war" hawk, who had at first supported LBJ's escalation of the Vietnam War, changed his mind about the war, and began a campaign for president to stop it, after study of what was happening there, and given his commitment to social justice as well as the country's growing revulsion at the senseless carnage. His change of heart was genuine and deeply felt; his campaign was extremely successful; he won the California primary, and was clearly headed to the White House.

Bang, bang. Shoot, shoot.

Follow the money. Always. Billions and billions and billions of dollars in rifles, bullets, bombs, helicopters, war planes, defoliation chemicals ("agent orange"), uniforms, tents, food, boots and body bags--to accomplish the slaughter of upwards of 2 million people in Southeast Asia before it was over. All three key leaders--all of them charismatic, all three very great leaders--who acted to prevent or stop this conflagration assassinated within the space of five years, at the outset of it.

Looking back at those years, from the perspective of the Bush Junta, I don't need any evidence. I know who killed JFK, MLK and RFK. It was operatives of the "military-industrial complex"--which Eisenhower had warned us about at the end of his presidency, just as JFK was being elected--and the purpose was war profiteering.

Our country never demobilized after WW II, and the war industries of that era went on to become the great leaches on our economy, which require blood--lots of blood--to be kept fat. They need a war every 20 years or so, to loot the American people with. We are seeing one now. Senseless war. Unjust war. Genocidal war with no other point except making certain people very, very rich. All the policy justifications are crap. Lies. Elaborate deceptions. Whole "think tanks" devoted to creating camouflage for war profiteers. And the tentacles of these war profiteers reaching into every aspect of our society get a grip on our politicians--and sometimes on workers and unions who need jobs--so that we cannot dislodge them. They run our country now. And the only thing we can do about it is, a) restore transparency to our election system so that we can vote out the War Party, and b) starve the beast--make peace with the world, and cut the military budget by 90%, down to a true defensive posture (no more wars of choice!).

They killed our best leaders in the 1960s. And I think they also killed Paul Wellstone in 2002--who had pledged to lead the battle in the Senate against the Iraq invasion, and who was also a charismatic leader headed for the White House.

Whatever the CIA may have done--or others (the Cuban mafia, southern bigots, Bush Cartel death squads)--by way of carrying out these assassinations--the real culprits sat in the boardrooms of the corporate war profiteers, the vampires of our age.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. A heartbreaking article on Bush vs. JFK on attitudes toward war...
what a good president is about, and what a terrible president is about, and why one had his head blown off, while the other lives well, relishing his power to bomb cities and torture the helpless...the perfect president for the war industry...

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0211-01.htm
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Knights of Malta, CFR etc.
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 08:14 AM by formercia
Vietnam was called Spellman's war after Cardinal Spellman, Grand Protector of the Knights of Malta.

http://www.namebase.org/sources/aU.html

Cooney, John. The American Pope: The Life and Times of Francis Cardinal Spellman. New York: Times Books, 1984. 364 pages.
Author John Cooney interviewed dozens of priests who worked with Cardinal Spellman, many of whom would only speak on background. He also filed the usual FOIA requests with the FBI and State Department. The records of the Archdiocese of New York, where Spellman reigned for 28 years, are closed to researchers, but one priest slipped Cooney a copy of Spellman's diary. This is the first major biography of Spellman (1889-1967), who was a major figure in American politics during the first half of the Cold War.

A consummate politician, Spellman laid low at first and cultivated key people in Rome. After his friend Cardinal Pacelli became Pope Pius XII in 1939, Spellman was appointed an archbishop. During the war, he travelled to war zones and acted as FDR's secret agent. After the war he allied himself with Joseph McCarthy and Roy Cohn, and became a kingmaker in New York City politics. He continued to support U.S. military adventures by visiting the troops, attending Pentagon briefings, discussing strategy with generals, and gathering intelligence for the CIA and State Department. Were it not for Spellman's early (beginning in 1950) efforts to support Ngo Dinh Diem, South Vietnam's puppet government might not have emerged. Ultimately the Vatican became wary of Spellman's power. So did antiwar activists, who demonstrated against "Spellman's War" outside his residence and cathedral.
ISBN 0-8129-1120-2
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Don't forget Cardinal Cody's role......nt
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. and Cardinal Egan
and all the other religious hypocrites and protectors of perverts and pedophiles.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Ding Ding Ding !!
:applause:

To know 'who' was behind all of this, one needs look no further than Eisenhower's departure speech where he warns us of the Military Industrial Complex.

They already had their grubby tentacles in most of gov'ts pockets, and had the means to intimidate/ blackmail and/or buy off anyone who wasn't going to march to their tune. IMO that's why LBJ left office such a defeated man - they made him, then seeing the consequences of doing their bidding - he broke. Imagine living your life knowing someone you can't speak of is pulling your strings.


:tinfoilhat:
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Can't forget John Lennon.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. ITA, 100%. MONEY. PERIOD. Not democracy/terrorism/Communism/
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 09:29 AM by WinkyDink
or any other reason.
MONEY.
And the perversions it can buy.

But don't cut their money; TAKE OVER the Defense Industries. Why should the nation's defense be FOR PROFIT?
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
80. We should always remember that just because operatives
inside these various agencies were involved that does not mean that the CIA carried out the assassinations as an agency program. It could easily be GHWB, renegade agent, out on their own. These criminals who have been stealing our country have long arms and know how to play the game. They were and are now very dangerous. Included in the bush cartel are oil execs, CIA agents, companies like Hell-burtin, drug cartels, white supremacists and many other links that have spread their tentacles throughout the world to try to strangle the people of the world. World Bank? International Monetary Fund group? To be able to keep this thing going all these years the group has to be huge.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't know if the CIA did it but Sirhan Sirhan doesn't seem to be the only...
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 03:31 AM by Poll_Blind
...one involved based on what I've read and seen. The funny thing is, I've mostly been exposed to the JFK assassination. While there are lots of questions there, especially about the Warren Commission Report tenacity, it seems like the RFK assassination had many more obvious flags as being something darker.

BTW, Mr. Scorpio or some other extremely cool person uploaded YouTube links with the live raw feed of the RFK assassination. Very raw and strange, especially the catholic guy. I'm not saying he had any part in it but he just adds to the colorful characters which pepper the retelling of that tragic day. Like the timing and of the chanting. Could be coincidence though. Strange things do happen.

The thing that does it for me, currently, are the powder burns and the distance Sirhan Sirhan was from him.

PB
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. Operation 40 Contract Agents
You can put an op 40 agent at a crime for the last 50 years: bay of pigs, Nixongate, JFK, RFK, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Iran Contra... some names:

Morales, Goss, Rodriguez, Hunt, Cline, Shackley... you get the idea.
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. They killed Paul Wellstone too.
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. they killed JFK, Jr., too
oh yeah, they did.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. Oh yeah they did!
Bastards! :grr:
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
68. Intell cover-up admitted in PBS Frontline documentary
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 11:03 PM by EVDebs
on TV the other night, 'Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald ?'

Too bad they relied upon Priscilla Johnson McMillan and Ruth Paine waaaaay too much. Please read Joan Mellen's book
'A Farewell To Justice'

www.joanmellen.net

""Building upon Garrisons effort, Mellen uncovers decisive new evidence and clearly establishes the intelligence agencies roles in both a presidents assassination and its cover-up, set in motion well before the actual events of November 22, 1963.""

She makes the case. Oswald was working for US military intelligence.

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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
71. That has been a thought of mine from time to time too.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #71
84. The Assassination of JFK Jr. (docu)
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
15. K&R - I just watched RFK's last speech on YouTube (& the aftermath)
Here's the network feed from RFK's last speech (split into several parts on YouTube and links posted by DUer jefferson_dem):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x5989

Also, for your consideration, this entry from Wikipedia:

<snip>
Many claims of a "second shooter" point to a part-time armed security guard escorting Kennedy, a 26-year-old Lockheed aerospace worker named Thane Eugene Cesar who had been called to work at the Ambassador at the last minute by his employer, Ace Guard Services. According to witnesses, Cesar had been standing closest to Kennedy on the Senator's right and slightly to the rear when Sirhan had begun firing. Apparently, Kennedy suddenly grabbed Cesar's clip-on necktie with his right hand when hit as that tie was less than a foot away from the Senator's right hand while he was lying fatally wounded on the hotel's kitchen floor. Interviewed by Los Angeles police detectives shortly after the assassination, Cesar admitted on tape that he had removed his revolver from his holster during the shooting in the pantry but insisted he never fired it. Cesar also admitted to investigator Theodore Charach that he had owned a .22-caliber revolver similar to Sirhan's, but claimed he had sold the weapon in February 1968, a claim eventually proved to have been false, as it had been later discovered that Cesar had instead sold it three months after the assassination. The buyer of that revolver had later reported it as stolen. The revolver that Cesar turned over to the LAPD was not test-fired by the police, because it was .38 caliber and all the slugs recovered were .22 caliber.
</snip>



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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
48. Thank you so much Cooley for sharing these important pieces of history
with us.

I was too young at the time to comprehend those murders, however watching these clips today breaks my heart and boils my blood at the same time.

If the media is going to hide history from us, its all the more important for us to pass it on.

Thanks so much for doing your part ;)

I think it was Bobby's birthday was yesterday. He would be 81 years old (?)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
16. criminal elements within the CIA and various other govt agencies.
RFK was as dangerous to them as JFK was - as was JFK jr, MLK, etc.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. Nixon's Treason article...4 more years of war and sandbagging
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 12:07 PM by EVDebs
a potential Humphrey '68 peace deal (the original 'October Surprise' if you will).

Nixon's Treason: He stopped an early peace in Vietnam
http://www.tompaine.com/Archive/scontent/3621.html

The, quite literally, 'smoking gun' of the M/I Complex in action.

BTW, I watched PBS's Frontline on "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald" the other night and couldn't believe the credulity of this outfit: they took as gospel everything Priscilla Johnson McMillan and Ruth Paine had to say. Hmmm. How DID Lee get that job in the schoolbook depository so conveniently...? Once more, with gusto.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Kissinger could still be hanged for that episode
There's no statute of limitations on treason. And what better "aide and comfort" could an enemy get than having powerful men actively undermining the Commander in Chief, allowing them to keep killing American soldiers for a while longer?

As far as I know Anna Chennault is still around to serve as witness for the prosecution.

If the DC Dems would only learn to fight these "rear guard" actions and show some backbone even when they might ruffle a few beltway feathers, things like Iraq wouldn't be so tragicly predictable.

--
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. It all led directly to Watergate...
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 08:02 PM by EVDebs
If you can get a copy of the article, Renata Adler told the story in the Dec. 1976 Atlantic in an article on 'Searching for the Real Nixon Scandal'. The money behind the scenes demanded all that we are talking about; the money and those that love it, the root of all evil.

This story is also in the book Canaries in the Mineshaft (check Amazon.com for it)

FOLLOW THE $
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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
57. don't forget Malcolm X
as one of the charismatic leaders assisinated during "those" days.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #57
85. Correct.
Malcolm's death is too often attributed soley to the NOI. He knew, however, when he was not allowed to enter France that there were other forces in play.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
17. Every road seems to go back to the Bushes and CIA :( nt
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
20. Interesting Aside
On Larry King the other night during a talk about OJ and his book, Larry mentioned that Rosey Grier was the one who removed the gun from Sirhan Sirhan. And here was big Rosey sticking up for OJ's right to do whatever and when Larry asked if OJ confessed- he said "no".

I never knew that story, but have always been among the believers in the corrupt Coup-de-tat for JFK, RFK, MLK, Wellstone, etc.
It is time for America to uproot the big lies.
:dem:
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
26. interesting
I certainly don't believe that Sirhan acted alone - in fact, I don't think he killed RFK at all, given his position in front of RFK and the fatal shot which came from behind at close range - but the theory in this article seems a little odd to me.

We're told that "Morales was a legendary figure in CIA covert operations" yet this covert operative is walking around the Ambassador ballroom that night, being filmed and photographed? All three of these guys are roaming around in a sea of cameras?

He may well be on to something, but it certainly sounds a little odd.

I still think it's the security guard. He was a known right-winger who said years after the assassination, "I hate Democrats, but I don't shoot them." He was in position to fire the fatal shot and was armed. A witness believed he fired his weapon.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
49. They were so arrogant that they evidently believed - and, seemingly,
not without reason - that they were above the law, i.e. "protected".
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. K & R
:kick:
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
29. K & R
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
30. buzzflash has it's panties in a bunch over a reader saying this

poppy's gang killed the Kennedys

poppy was/is CIA
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. Prof. Philip H. Melanson pioneered the research on RFK assassination.


From his book, "The Robert F. Kennedy Assassination: New Revelations on the Conspiracy and Cover-Up, 1968-1991"



p16
... the LAPD continued to resist for three more years-until letter campaigns and media coverage made it politically inexpedient to keep the information secret any longer. On April 19, 1988, the files were sent to the California State Archives in Sacramento, where researchers could evaluate the evidence for themselves.

The files made it clear that the LAPD had engaged in a massive cover-up, both during the original investigation and in the intervening twenty years. They'd not only attempted to misconstrue or overlook data that didn't support their lone-assassin view, but they'd actively destroyed evidence that might suggest a conspiracy... Now it learned that:

    * The results of the 1968 test firing of Sirhan's gun were missing.
    * The test gun used for ballistics comparison and identification was destroyed.
    * Over 90% of the audiotaped witness testimony was lost or destroyed. Of the 3470 interviews the LAPD conducted, only 301 were preserved. Key testimony-like 29 witness accounts that suggested conspiracy-was missing, while less important interviews-like that of Sirhan's Bible teacher-remained.
    * On August 21, 1968, less than two months after the assassination, 2400 photographs from the original investigation were burned, in the medical-waste incinerator at LA County General Hospital. The LAPD claimed that the photos were duplicates, but there weren't any known logs or inventories of photos that could verify that.


Moreover, Scott Enyart, an amateur photographer who'd been taking pictures the night of the assassination and whose film had been confiscated by police, has never been given back all his photos. His pictures, the only ones that might have captured the actual shooting, weren't in the files.

But even with the limited data that remained, there was still ample evidence to substantiate what critics had been saying all along-that there was a conspiracy to kill RFK.

The evidence for such a conspiracy falls into three key areas. First, it now appears clear that it was impossible for Sirhan to have fired the bullets that killed Kennedy - which means there must have been a second gunman. Second, an abundance of testimony by eye-witnesses suggests that Sirhan had at least two accomplices. Third, Sirhan's political motive-his hatred of RFK for supporting Israel-seems to be either a fabrication of the LAPD or a motive planted by conspirators to divert suspicion 1 from a more sinister plot.

p20

Evidence for a second gunman

... The autopsy revealed three gunshot wounds in Robert Kennedy's body-one behind the right ear, a second near the right armpit and a third 11/2 inches below the armpit wound. A fourth bullet missed his body but pierced the right rear shoulder of his suit coat. All bullets entered from the right rear, at fairly steep upward angles and in a slightly right-to-left direction.

p22

... although witnesses disagree on whether Sirhan shot at RFK while the Senator was turned to his left shaking hands with busboy Juan Romero or whether the handshake had finished and Kennedy was walking forward, all agree that Sirhan approached Kennedy from the front and that the Senator never turned his back to Sirhan.

This is totally inconsistent with the autopsy evidence that the shots came from the rear.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/FBI/Who_Killed_R_Kennedy.html



Thanks for posting this article, kpete.

The Truth is what will beat back these fascist mass murderers and assassins.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
109. When RFK was assassinated, the LAPD got rid of the evidence PDQ.
Here's more info from Citizine Research.

These Bushfellahs sure know how to get rid of evidence quickly.

In 1968, Bobby Kennedy was a threat to the War Party...like his brother, before him.



CITIZINE RESEARCH

RFK Assassination Far From Resolved

Physical evidence and eyewitness testimony give reason to reconsider Sirhan Sirhans conviction for the 1968 murder of Robert F. Kennedy.


By Thom White

EXCERPT...

Follow the bullets

There is evidence of more than eight bullets being fired. Sirhans gun only had eight chambers, and there was no time for him to reload, so for the crazed lone gunman theory to be plausible, there could only be evidence of eight bullets fired.

As many as five or six ceiling panels were removed by the LAPD investigating team, and lead criminalogist DeWayne Wolfer is quoted as saying, Its unbelievable how many holes there are in the kitchen ceiling.

Wolfer filled his official report with magic bullets (bullets #2, 4, and 6 that supposedly struck more than one person) to stay within the eight-bullet parameters and reach the desired conclusion. Here is how the LAPD accounted for the bullets:
Bullet #1: struck Senator Robert F. Kennedy behind the right ear.
Bullet #2: passed through RFKs right shoulder pad and struck campaign aide Paul Schrade in the forehead.
Bullet #3: entered RFKs back inches below the top of the right shoulder.
Bullet #4: entered RFKs back, about one inch below bullet #3, but exited the senators body through the right front chest.
Bullet #5: struck Ira Goldstein in the right rear buttock.
Bullet #6: passed through Goldsteins pants leg, struck the cement floor, and, ricocheted onto Irwin Strolls left leg.
Bullet #7: struck William Weisel in the left abdomen.
Bullet #8: reflected off the plaster ceiling to strike Elizabeth Evans in the head.

SNIP...

Investigative reporter Jonn Christian found a Chicago Tribune article authored by Robert Weidrich. Weidrich had evidently been in the pantry as the doorjamb was being removed, for his account contained the following information:

On a low table lay an 8-foot strip of molding, torn by police from the center post of the double doors leading from the ballroom. These were the doors through which Sen. Kennedy had walked....Now the molding bore the scars of a crime laboratory technicians probe as it had removed two .22-caliber bullets that had gone wild.

The LAPD report said these holes were not from bullets and may have been caused by collisions with a food cart, but even FBI agent William Bailey said that for him and other agents, There was no questions in any of our minds as to the fact that they were bullet holes.

These bullets are not accounted for in Wolfers LAPD report. This door jamb was destroyed under a court order in 1969 soon after Sirhans conviction for murder.

SNIP...

Matre d Karl Uecker gripped Kennedys right wrist with his left hand. Ace Guard Service employee Thane Eugene Cesar joined Kennedy as he went through the double doors into the pantry, touching his right elbow. Bill Barry, an ex-FBI man who was ostensibly serving as Kennedys bodyguard, had fallen behind Kennedy as he entered the pantry.

CONTINUED...

http://www.citizinemag.com/politics/politics_0506_rfk_t...



Some world we live in, huh?

Let's make it better by bringing these traitors responsible for the assassinations of the Kennedys and Dr. King (and I believe Sen. Wellstone and JFK Jr.) to justice.


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Clinton Crusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
38. Two things always made this a conpsiracy
Sirhan was always in front of RFK, therefore making the point blank shot behind RFK's right ear an impossibility and...

They could never match the bullets from the victims to Sirhan's gun.

Thane Eugene Cesar shot Bobby from behind. After the shooting, Cesar casually walked out of the pantry, out of the Ambassador. He was a hired security guard, but after a SHOOTING, he just walks out? He now lives in the Phillipines.

He owned a .38 and a .22, sold the .22 under somewhat cloudy circumstances. The LAPD conveniently destroyed much of the evidence involved (including door panels with bullet holes), did not confiscate all firearms in the pantry, and never ever looked at anyone except Sirhan.

The girl in the polka dot dress became a huge point, but LAPD wore down witnesses who saw her until they changed their story.

Dallas - Part II.

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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
40. Who was head of the CIA then!
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Clinton Crusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
41. I always found this interesting...
And maybe I'm misinformed.

But after Bobby finished his speech he turned LEFT. But he is then directed RIGHT, in the direction of the pantry. Who directed him? Now, what if he had gone left? If Sirhan is the lone gunman how did he KNOW RFK would turn right into the pantry? Apparently, from what I can gather, the original plan was for RFK to exit left, which provided no entrance into the pantry area.

Im sorry to say I do not know who directed him. But if he had gone left as had already been decided, would history be different?
:shrug:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. I'm glad you posted this... but after all these years, I still can't deal with it.
This is the one loss that still unhinges me. :cry:

I'm grateful that others are focusing on it, because I can't. :cry:

Thanks for posting! :applause:
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
50. Nov 20 would have been RFK's Birthday n/t
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
51. I hope this movie comes out on DVD.
There are a plethora of documentaries on JFK's assassination, but precious few on RFK. I am very much looking forward to seeing this.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
55. great thread.
I want to read more on this and will be using "the google tubes".

:)
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
59. Link to BBC2's Newsnight: You can watch tonight's episode now:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/6166806.stm

Kick on the "Watch Latest Programme" link, top right side of the page...
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. Just finished watching it....
I'm speechless. I'm letting it sink in.

Mandatory viewing. Period.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. Special Unit Senator headed by CIA/LAPD officer
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 11:58 PM by EVDebs
Ehrlichman's reminiscence of Nixon's comment re RFK assassination and then Nixon's comment to Haldeman about the Bay of Pigs during Watergate...kinda makes you wonder. "Ehrlichman will know what I mean"--Nixon.

http://www.geocities.com/zzzpeace/nixon.htm and

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKehrlichman.htm

Haldeman's 'Ends of Power'

Ehrlichman's 'Witness to Power' intimates that when RFK put his hat into the ring for the Presidency, Nixon says something about how he'll end up...Any DUers have a copy of that book handy ?
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LeahD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #74
81. Here's the Nixon quote from the book..........
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 01:25 AM by LeahD
Witness to Power by John Ehrlichman, pg. 40

Four or five of us sat with Richard Nixon as Bobby Kennedy made his speech for the television cameras. When it was over and the hotel-room TV was turned off, Nixon sat and looked at the blank screen for a long time, saying nothing. Finally he shook his head slowly. "We've just seen some very terrible forces unleashed," he said. "Something bad is going to come of this." He pointed at the screen. "God knows where this is going to lead."
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. was Nixon referring to the speech or to the assassination?
(i'm guessing the latter)
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. An impending assassination. The quotes re 'Bay of Pigs thing'
mentioned in the Haldeman book (and the basis for an article of impeachment of tampering with a federal agency--the CIA) show criminal knowledge. Aren't these guys gag-a-maggot sick ?
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #81
90. Thank you LeahD. My memory re that quote and page number
are now indelibly stamped into my mind. When I read the book my jaw about hit the floor reading that passage. Again, thanks for posting it. You've done DUers and people on the web a huge favor !
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LeahD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #90
99. Witness to Power is on my bookshelf, and it wasn't difficult
to find that quote! The Watergate era isn't something I've read about. I was a young mother back then and was glued to the tube for the hearngs...as was my mother who detested Nixon. The hearings were a pivotal time in this country's history, and a rude awakening for the American people. Ehrichlman and Haldeman were doing the CYA routine, and then along came John Dean, speaking truth to power, and he took Nixon and his cohorts down. It was a time of disillusionment, and we were faced with the realization that those in power were willing to betray the principles of this country, and do whatever it took, to protect themselves and stay in power. In the end, it was uplifting to see justice prevail and know our system worked. Might we be so fortunate to see true investigations in 2007?

When Ehrlichman's book was published in 1982, I lived in Santa Fe, as did Ehrlichman. I stood in line to purchase his book and have it autographed. I had mixed emotions about standing in that line knowing I was lining Ehrlichman's pockets, but I wanted my mother, whose instincts about Nixon were correct, to have a piece of history. After Ehrlichman served time in prison, he moved to Santa Fe "to write" and philosophize. Isn't it amazing that the power brokers only begin the self-examination process once they've been "caught" and are out of power?!
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. Thanks ! I couldn't dig up the book (it's in a box in basement) BTW
you sound like Mae Brussell, who bought the entire Warren Report 26 Volumes and discovered the CIA/ex-Nazi connections to the JFK murder. Many White Russian emigres in Dallas area were being used to smear Oswald in the report, and she uncovered Operation Paperclip. To me, that's a "smoking gun" right there.
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LeahD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. I wish I was that diligent.
My mother did order the transcripts of the Watergate hearings though!
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
64. excellent thread
thanx evry1
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
66. In other words, part of our own government killed RFK-JFL-MLK
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. "Their Will Be Done" article by Martin A. Lee
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 11:10 PM by EVDebs
www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

The CIA was created by the Knights of Malta essentially...and they get what they want.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. this is fuckstick sick ....
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. M$M will not touch it with a 10 ft Pole
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #69
107. kick n/t
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
70. And all this time I thought it was a contract hit for Joe DiMaggio
to revenge Monroe's death. :shrug:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
76. They certainly waived the secret service car riders, one was
pretty confused over the wave off. Ever see the video of the start of the drive?
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
77. Cui bono?
There are three rules of conspiracy research, Proof, Evidence, Plausability (known as PEP). Proof is rare although it does occasionally come up (i.e. Iran-Contra), Evidence is more often forthcoming (i.e. there's plenty of evidence that Election 2004 was stolen) but the big one is Plausablity and that's usually where the more nutzoid theories fall down. For example, why would the Jews (even assuming all Jewish people thought the same way) want to rule the world? No-one pursues power for it's own sake, everyone wants to do something with that power so what would be the point?

Cui bono? is a way of figuring out what the point would be. It means "who benefits?", who has most to gain? It doesn't always lead directly to your culprit (for example, Bush benefitted most from 9/11 in myriad ways) but it can often point you in the right direction. Every conspiracy researcher has known for years that it was simply impossible for Sirhan Sirhan to have fired the fatal shot so the question becomes, who benefits?

The problem is that an awful lot of people had something to gain. The mob got rid of an annoyingly persistent enemy. The military-industrial complex got to play in SE Asia for a while longer. Even the left had something to gain (a potential martyr in the same vein as JFK). You can do the same trick with his brother's murder: Virtually every power player had something to gain by JFK's death. Does mean, though, that trying to figure teh whole thing out is a headache waiting to happen.

What's more interesting to me is the fact that, in the space of a few years, the president, the probable next president and the nation's foremost civil rights leader were all murdered, in highly dubious circumstances. The investigations were all flawed (at best). In the case of JFK, the Warren Commission expressely set out to pin the blame on Oswald, not necessarily to uncover the truth. Oh, and much of the vital evidence has now gone walkabout. What's wrong with this picture? Three massively important public figures are murdered and there's no real investigation, no real attempt to uncover the truth? To me, that says that either the investigators know the truth and have no intention of letting it come out or the murders were too useful for them to be much bothered about.

Cui bono? If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
98. Yep, just a bit too much co-inkydink to wash hands of it all.
But I might offer a 'claim to value' argument over this tiny snip;
"No-one pursues power for it's own sake"
When I had time to read history, that very thing seemed to be a theme.

This is a great theme;
"Three massively important public figures are murdered and there's no real investigation, no real attempt to uncover the truth? To me, that says that either the investigators know the truth..."
And I hope the remainder of them have their intentions changed for them on the stand, under oath.
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AverageJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
88. Kicking
:kick:
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brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
111. kick
kick
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
112. CIA, Cuban gusamos, mafia, Hoffa's people or any combination thereof.
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