Why should we even listen to the generals regarding Iraq troop levels?

[BushOut06]

We've got all these generals coming out warning against pulling our troops out of Iraq, and even calling for more troops. Why should we listen to these guys? These are the same people who have been fucking it up ever since we moved into Iraq! They haven't been able to contain the insurgency or quell the violence, and now we're supposed to think that with a few extra thousand troops, everything will be peachy keen? I heard a report that some general is saying that he thinks Iraqi forces can be trained within a year. I'm sorry, but I remember hearing this same song-and-dance three years ago!

They've had their chance. They've shown they can't get it done. It's time to leave now and let the Iraqis do it. They surely can't do much worse than we've done. At least let's remove the central focus of their hatred - US.

[demnan]

1. Vietnam

Midnight, start up the helicopters, get our asses out!

[Buzz Clik]

2. You listen because they are the experts.

Did we listen when the retired generals were pointing fingers at Rumsfeld? Yes. Why? Because they knew.

The active generals must be consulted and we must listen to their advice. We cannot leave tomorrow; that's a sad fact, but it is a fact. So, we must lay out a detailed plan for ending this mess, and that will not be accomplished without input from the military.

[HereSince1628]

6. Well, we assume they are experts. Maybe that ain't so hot an idea.

Curtis LeMay was a general, and his solution to everything was bomb the living shit out of every potential opponent. The more and bigger the bombs, the better.

How do we tell the true experts from political sycophants in uniform?

How can we assume that the Cheney foreign policy machine is capable of hearing the experts rather than miitary sycophants. Six years have proven that trust in that assumption is badly misplaced.

[Buzz Clik]

10. Like it or not, we are not in charge.

We have questionable leadership in the White House who created this mess. Now, we're looking for the exit. That will involve the military. And the decisions will be made by the White House.

That's it. None of us like it, but there it is. In the mean time, undermining the military brass accomplishes nothing.

[greenman3610]

11. These are'nt the Curtis Lemay's

these are the Tony Zinnis. The guys who said
don't go in the first place.

[HereSince1628]

17. Yes, my only point is as experts Generals are not created equal.

And ultimately someone must choose which one's get heard. Unfortunately we know how Cheney makes those choices.

[Toots]

7. We can leave tomorrow just as easily as we arrived

They were there before we came and will be there after we are gone. I heard exactly the same thing about Vietnam and guess what, those people are doing just fine without America telling them how to behave...These people have been dealing with themselves for thousands of years longer than America or even Europe has been in existence and they will continue to do so with or without America occupying their soil.

[JayMonster]

8. Boehner would disagree ...

...with them being the experts. (At least when they disagree)

House Majority Leader John Boehner: Wolf, I understand that, but let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.

Wolf Blitzer: But he's in charge of the military.

Boehner: But the fact is the generals on the ground are in charge and he works closely with them and the president.

{{ end sarcasm }}

[newyawker99]

22. Hi JayMonster!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[JayMonster]

9. Boehner would disagree ...

...with them being the experts. (At least when they disagree)

House Majority Leader John Boehner: Wolf, I understand that, but let's not blame what's happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.

Wolf Blitzer: But he's in charge of the military.

Boehner: But the fact is the generals on the ground are in charge and he works closely with them and the president.

{{ end sarcasm }}

[bigtree]

3. agreed!!!

Why do Americans tolerate Bush letting the 'Generals' dictate our level of involvement in Iraq?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2729924


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bigtree

[acmejack]

4. Their credibility has been seriously compromised, IMHO.

Not to draw any parallels, but:

"The training, transportation and logistical support we are providing in Vietnam has succeeded in turning the tide against the Vietcong."
--General Barksdale Hamlett (US. Army Vice Chief of Staff), October 10, 1962

"The spearhead of aggression has been blunted in Vietnam."
--John F. Kennedy, January 14, 1963

"Victory is in sight."
--General Paul D. Harkins, March 5, 1963

"The Vietcong is going to collapse within weeks. Not months but weeks."
--Walt Whitman Rostow (Chairman of the Policy Planning Council of the US. Department of State), July 1965

"Its silly talking about how many years we will have to spend in the jungles of Vietnam when we could pave the whole country and put parking stripes on it and still be home by Christmas."
--Ronald Reagan, October 10, 1965

"We must never forget that if the war in Vietnam is lost. . . the right of free speech will be extinguished throughout the world."
--Richard M. Nixon,, October 27, 1965

"Hold on a little longer and pretty soon we will have them on their knees at the bargaining table."
--Sen. Everett Dirksen, January 9, 1966

"The North Vietnamese cannot take the punishment anymore in the South. I think we can bring the war to a conclusion within the next year, possibly within the next six months."
--General S.L.A. Marshall, September 12, 1966

"I believe there is a light at the end of what has been a long and lonely tunnel."
--Lyndon B. Johnson, September 21, 1966

"The military picture is favorable."
--Gen. William C. Westmoreland, April 24, 1967

"We have reached an important point when the end begins to come into view."
--Gen. William C. Westmoreland, November 21, 1967

"The troops will be brought home in 18 months."
--General Harold K. Johnson, August 12, 1967

"If I'm elected we'll end this war in six months."
--Richard M. Nixon, 1968

"The enemy is about to run out of steam."
--Gen. William C. Westmoreland, February 2, 1968

"We have the enemy licked now."
--Admiral John S. McClain, February 1969

"I think we've certainly turned the corner."
--Melvin Laird (US Secretary of Defense), July 15, 1969

"The enemy is reeling from successive disasters. . . . We are, in fact. . . winning the war."
--William Buckley, December 20, 1969

"We're on our way up . . . the pendulum is beginning to swing."
--Gen. William C. Westmoreland, April 16, 1972

"Militarily and politically, Hanoi is losing."
--Richard M. Nixon, June 26, 1972

[frustrated_lefty]

5. Shinseki was dead on.

Don't fault the experts for having their advice dismissed by Rumsfeld.

[Buzz Clik]

12. I agreed with Shinseki, but that is irrelevant now.

[frustrated_lefty]

13. Probably. But, the OP asked why trust the experts.

The experts were right. Rumsfeld and his entire coterie were wrong.

[BushOut06]

20. But the 'experts' want more troops, not a pullout

And they've also been 'training' the Iraqi forces for the past several years.

I'm saying enough is enough. We fucked it up from the very beginning. It's now time to make an exit while we still can.

[BIG Sean]

14. If you are going to wage war...listen to them, if you are NOT going to wage war

then don't.

This is the reason we have a civilian leadership. It up to the civilian leadership to decide who we wage war with, it is up to the generals to decide how.

[tabasco]

15. Iraq is the goose that lays golden eggs for the robber barons.

They will trot out their generals and their liars and their paid "experts" to tell us we need to stay in Iraq forever. They will not give up that goose easily as the Democratic Congress is about to find out.

[KharmaTrain]

16. Abazaid Needs To Be Replaced

He's been the "quarterback" as the situation has gotten from worse to living hell. He's been wrong on many predictions and off on others. He was Rummy's sockpuppet and has zero credibility when it comes to speaking honestly about the current situation. He's been politicized and is preventing the real truths from coming forward.

Unfortunately we only hear when Generals retire how screwed up things are. The military is a very regimented organization and speaking out is akin to treason for most. The troops are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't position where they have to support the higher ups. It's another Vietnam mistake made again...and is demoralizing the troops the longer the lies and this ugly invasion are prolonged.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Because they wear snappy uniforms and will be working for Boeing.

Or General Dynamics, or Lockheed, or Raytheon, and will have lots of political influence while raking in the dough.

[fishnfla]

19. Because Rumsfeld is gone now. He didn't listen to them first

I suggest you read the book "Fiasco". Some in the military were against this war to begin with. Many were aginst how it was campaigned. Some quit. Some made mistakes, but others learned from their mistakes.

Rummy and Cheney are responsible for the mess, not the Generals

[warrens]

21. According to some retired generals

They're buckling under to political pressure.

We have to get some troops out if only to put pressure on the Iraqis to actually govern, not try to steal oil for their religious sect.