I haven't seen a stated position on this yet, so I'm wondering what DU feels

[Greyhound]

should be done, if anything, about the H1-(b)/L-1 visa programs?

While ~500,000 engineers and IT workers languish in the unemployment lines (not to mention the hundreds of thousands that have involuntarily left the field in order to sustain their eating habit), the owners of the tech industry present a demand, a parting gift if you will, to nearly double the number of H1-(b) visas and further relaxing of the nearly non-existent L-1 visa regulations, to the outgoing re:puke: legislators.

Once again they are creating an alternate reality in an attempt to justify the further decimation of the industry here in the U.S. by whining about a non-existent worker shortage.

http://news.com.com/Tech+asks+departing+Republicans+for...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

This issue has enjoyed "bi-partisan" support for years in spite of the detrimental effects it has yielded for U.S. citizens.

So, how do you think the party should handle this?

[acmavm]

Personally, I'm no more worried about workers in the IT

field losing their positions to foreign workers than I am anybody else. I think it is a sham and a shame that we're supposed to feel so upset for 'professionals' and not for your average blue collar workers.

It's just not an H1-(b) visa mess folks. It's all across the board. And something needs to be done for everyone.

[Greyhound]

4. I don't think this is an either/or proposition, just different methods employed.

The blue-collar workers are getting screwed by illegal immigration, professional workers are screwed by acts of congress, and everybody is getting screwed by the GATT, WTO, and NAFTA debacles.

[acmavm]

8. Ah, that's so very true. But have you noticed that when it was

just blue collar workers, no one gave a damn?

[Greyhound]

9. I did and still do. This has been my primary issue since the 80's.

You can imagine how popular my views on Bill Clinton were when he turned his back on the workers that put him in office. It also makes me very "popular" here.:eyes:

[acmavm]

15. Well then sir, I am very glad to make your acquaintance.

[Pithlet]

13. I don't think that's entirely true.

I've always seen labor and unions supported by progressive minded people.

[Greyhound]

20. Are you sure you see them supported, or do you hear a lot of talk about

supporting them, while decades pass with nothing being done?

Recent union membership numbers are up, but look a little further back and compare where they are today, and what benefits they've been able to deliver to their members?

[Pithlet]

30. Well, both.

For instance, how many people who voted Dem and have voted for Dems, did so because they know (or perceive, if you think there's no difference) that Dems are stronger on labor issues than Repubs are? I'm willing to bet there is a good chance that was on at least some of the voters' minds. Those are instances of support for the blue collar workers' rights right there. Because Dems haven't been winning much until recently doesn't mean the support wasn't there. And the fact that they're winning now means people are waking up, and they're doing that at least in part because of the people who've been shouting at them. There have been books and movies made relatively recently in support of rights for the working class. The fact that we've had periods of history where sweeping changes were made is a good sign that there are still people today who care enough to work toward change. People like that didn't disappear overnight. They're still out there. Like the people who are working to unionize Wal-mart, for instance. Honestly, I think the fact that not much has been done lately is due to Republicans being in power and conrtrolling much of the media, more than anything else.

I don't doubt that there are clueless white collar workers who didn't care, or didn't pay attention to what was happening to the blue collar workers, and only now care because it could affect them. They were probably either right wing, or just plain politically ignorant to begin with. But, don't think that no one cares, or that no one is working to change things, because then you might as well just give up.

[Greyhound]

31. When the party turned their backs on the workers in the 80's in favor of corporate

donors, it lead to the re:puke: juggernaut that set this country on its present course. Now they've seen how much worse the re:puke:s are and we get another chance. If we go back to the old familiar pattern (a la Emanuel/Shumer) they will leave again.

This is my biggest concern with this election, too many of us believe this was a Democratic victory while I believe it was more of a re:puke: loss. The people are demanding real, significant changes and if we don't deliver, or at least make an honest-to-Dog, no-holds-barred, fight to give it to them, we will pay, again.

[Pithlet]

32. Stating that the party turned their backs in the 80's

is different than stating that no one today cares about blue collar worker's rights. You stated that no one today seems to care about that, and that is what I wast contending was false. I'm certainly not contending that the Democratic party has always been perfect and never made mistakes.

And I also disagree that this was more a Republican loss than a Democratic victory. You said it yourself; the people are demanding real, significant changes. It was an indictment against the Republicans, but also an acknowledgment of something many of them should have known quite some time ago. The only way they were going to get those changes was voting for the Democrats. We've been hammering that message, even against Republican control of the media, and it finally hit. That is our victory. We can't rest now, we have to actually work for that change, but poo pooing it and conceding the point to the Republicans that it was merely their loss could be damaging to that fight, and it's just plain wrong.

[Greyhound]

33. OK, got it, and it was an overstatement that no one cares. Many do

care a great deal, unfortunately they are not running things. In the 80's The Party threw the blue-collar workers, women and minorities under the bus in order to secure corporate donations, and the thing is, many of those that did this are still there (check the Murtha ABSCAM threads).

I really hope that your's is the accurate assessment, I've just been in this game too long to be very optimistic.

[roody]

36. We need to get rid of corporate rule.

Abolish corporate personhood is a start.

[Greyhound]

38. Absolutely.

But as a wise woman said, "The master's tools will never dismantel the masters house".

[Bitwit1234]

1. "Free Trade"

I think one way to take our industries back is this...any company that moved overseas to get 1 dollar a day labor, must be charged a tax on every piece of goods they bring back into this country. The tax must equal the price they would pay to have it manufactured in this country.

The goods they sell back to this country are not that much cheaper and this way people would buy American. And every tax break given to every country that moved overseas and outsourced jobs should be stopped right away and we should charge a tax on all those services.

In other words charge the company the same thing they would have had to pay if they left the company and the jobs in this country. Do not let EVEN ONE profit. Foreign companies won't buy our products why do we continue to flood our markets with theirs.

[Greyhound]

5. LOL!

I don't know if you know this, but Pat Buchanan made the same proposal a few weeks ago.

[Deep13]

2. I see it the way you explained it.

Also, I see importing cheap technical assistance as a way to get around educating our own people.

[Greyhound]

6. Technical enrollment is down 70% from 1998 because kids have seen their parents

ruined by trying to play the "education will get you a good job" game. It is being played out in every field except for the legal professions, of course. Will we become a nation of McJob workers and lawyers?

[Hugin]

10. Wow... Considering the lag time to train new technical skills

That's an alarming statistic.

[Greyhound]

19. And the long-term consequences are even more dismal.

Senior developers come from junior, or entry level, developers, positions which are almost entirely non-existent in the U.S. So, where are the next generation of innovators going to come from?

Another of the great ironies of this mess is that while the "education" corporations are pushing hard for this give-away, they refuse to hire their own graduates to fill open positions, preferring the visa holders as they are virtual slaves, threatened with deportment if they lose their jobs. Nice, huh?

[Hugin]

25. "where are the next generation of innovators going to come from?"

Their home lab out in the garage?

I hear what you're saying... There is no incentive in an area where incentive is
key.

[Alcibiades]

18. Don't forget doctors

and right-wing economists, pundits, preachers, con artists, speculators and car salesmen.

Oh, and managers and executives. It's only productive work that gets outsourced.

[Greyhound]

21. The doctors are getting it as we write.

Saddled with $100,000 - $200,000 in debt upon graduating are finding that their options are severely limited. They used to come out of their residency and work for a Human Murdering Organization to build their client list and then go into private practice. Now the corporate control over the industry is almost total and the patients have no options to move, so the physicians are relegated to remaining wage slaves for years while they try to pay off the crushing debt of their education. Oh yes, and they get to compete with their foreign counterparts that come here with no debt.

Middle management is also hemorrhaging jobs, pay, and benefits, as they are replaced by "consultants".

[roody]

37. Time for a revolution!

[Finder]

3. I assume we are all over the map on this one...

as we are on most issues.

Personally, I think Friedman's book, "The World is Flat" is essential reading for insight into this issue.

[Greyhound]

7. It's been a over a year since that came out and I don't have the links handy anymore,

but have you investigated the claims he makes in his book?

Every point he tries to sell about how it helps us have been exposed as nothing but faked statistics and industry lies. It is, in fact, great for India, but we are bearing the whole cost in the short-term and the long-term consequences are truly frightening for anyone that thinks their kids are going to have anything like our lifestyle.

[HughBeaumont]

11. It's great for Indian and American rich.

Bad for everyone else since they're either being exploited beyond belief or displaced from their job.

Neo-libs like Friedman are the LAST person I'd ask for balanced insight on this issue. You might as well ask Carly Fiorina or David Dreier.

[Finder]

14. I don't think the book was promoting anything in particular...

but was warning that competition is no longer just among the citizens of a nation but the globe.

[Finder]

12. He makes observations rather than claims...

IMO.

I agree with a lot of his conclusions and hope it leads to better education for our kids.

[Greyhound]

16. His book is full of false claims made by ITAA (a corporate sponsored "industry advocate")

that created the mythical IT shortage in the mid-nineties, All of which have subsequently been exposed as outright lies.

As for the education aspect, collage enrollment in technical degree (engineering, science) programs is down 70% from the peak reached in 1998, so it doesn't look like it is helping there either.

[nosillies]

17. Could the 70% downturn be because college enrollment is no longer

necessary for a technical education? I know nothing about the statistic, but perhaps it is only counting enrollment in traditional 2 and 4 year schools. There are plenty of other options for getting a sound a valuable technical education these days. Some of the best IT folks I've worked with got their education from non-traditional tech schools or specialty courses like New Horizons.

[Greyhound]

23. Phoenix University, DeVry University, ITT, and New Horizons are all

counted. In addition, none of these diploma mills sell education, they sell the myth of a career/job, and are, in reality, not educational institutes at all but are simply government loan processors.

[nosillies]

24. Actually, I know people who have gotten wonderful jobs based on the

"education" they received at some of the very "diploma mills" you mentioned. They're feeding their families a lot more easily than my four-year degree self is!

[Greyhound]

27. Question, how old are these people you know and what do they do?

I called them diploma mills from a great deal of personal experience. The absolute, hands down, almost supernatural programmer I've ever known got his degree form DeVry. However, DeVry had absolutely nothing to do with his talent, nor did he learn anything from them, in fact, in almost every class he was the resource the other students went to, because he knew so much more and was much better at conveying the knowledge than the "instructor".

Ageism is rampant in this field, "overqualified" being the #1 excuse for passing on candidates.

[nosillies]

34. Sorry, I only asked a question about statistics for my own clarification

Not going to get caught up in this...seems a little too personal.

[Greyhound]

35. Sorry, that was not my intention.

Getting solid information information in this area seems to frequently be an exercise in futility, and I am left to gather as much anecdotal evidence as possible. The problem is there is no one with any significant capability to speak for the workers.

I began looking into this about 10 years ago when I became the person to conduct technical employment interviews. Frankly I was stunned at the general lack of understanding the candidates exhibited, then this one guy came in and he is a genius. I mean an authentic find, the kind of guy you build a whole department around, and he comes out of DeVry. Wow, I was wrong about them, so I call up the placement office and tell their guy (Kieth I think) what we are looking for the talents we need and to send his grads over for interviews. Nine months later was still looking for one to come in with a glimmer of talent, let alone the qualifications. WTF?

Anyway, I'm sorry I freaked you out.

[rockymountaindem]

29. That book (which I had to read for a class) repulsed me

It was at the point when he said "now all these developing countries can compete to offer the best wage, tax and environmental packages to employers, so we can all save money!" that I realized that he was the first person I'd ever see who tried to frame the "race to the bottom" in a positive light. Right there is where I lost any interest in what he had to say.

Plus, there's the fact that he uses one stupid metaphor in that book to explain everything that is happening in the entire global economy. He was totally caught up in himself.

[HughBeaumont]

39. It's even more ridiculous when you consider . . .

. . .that a ROUND earth is more easily connected than a FLAT one. So his whole premise sucks to begin with.

[TahitiNut]

22. I'm in favor of the elimination of those programs.

I've seen the abuses first-hand - where qualified (called "overqualified") U.S. citizens went unemployed and younger (less experienced) Canadian, German, Japanese, and Indian migrants were hired for less than the going rate such positions warranted. I'm 100% against a workforce without voting rights.

[dkofos]

26. Last week Lou Dobbs did a bit on this.

The US wants to to grant 1.8 million H1-(b) visas over the next 10 years
for engineers when only 1.25 million jobs are forcast to be created.

This is fucking insanity.

[Greyhound]

28. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" - The Great OZ n/t