How is BORAT any different than BLACKFACE?

[Rockstone]

Blackface is a style of theatrical makeup that originated in the United States, used to affect the countenance of an iconic, racist American archetype - that of the darky or coon. Blackface also refers to a genre of musical and comedic theatrical presentation in which blackface makeup is worn. White blackface performers in the past used burnt cork and later greasepaint or shoe polish to blacken their skin and exaggerate their lips, often wearing woolly wigs, gloves, tails, or ragged clothes to complete the transformation. Later, black artists also performed in blackface.

Blackface was an important performance tradition in the American theater for over 100 years and was also popular overseas. Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrelsy played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide. In some quarters, the caricatures that were the legacy of blackface persist to the present day and are a cause of ongoing controversy.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/26/borat3_wideweb__470x303,0.jpg

Let's see...
- proliferating racist images? Check
- caricature? Check
- cause of ongoing controversy? Check

edit:
For the sake of discussion, I'll say I have taken the character to be a slur against muslims/arabs/persians.

[boolean]

1. For one thing....

"Kazakhstani" is not a race.

[Skidmore]

9. Perhaps not, but just the made up name prompts an association

with peoples from an general geographical area of the world.

[Shakespeare]

27. Made up name? You do know Kazakhstan is a real country, right? n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

139. A real country that is nowhere near the middle east.

Kazakh has a "stan" attached to it because their language is similar to the Turkomans, most of whom converted to Islam and invaded the Middle East, whereupon they conquered Media (Kurdistan) and Anatolia (Turkey).

The rest stayed in central Asian steppes, near Mongolia and Russia.

They have little or nothing in common with Arabs.

I doubt Kazakhs are any more anti-semitic than Russians (who are, or used to be VERY anti-semitic.)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

144. Uh...

I don't think he's supposed to be an Arab stereotype. He's supposed to be generic-developing-world-stereotype-held-by-racist-Americans.

[The Stranger]

195. All the more reason why it is bigoted stereotyping.

We can do better than this.

[Shakespeare]

25. It's also not Persian, it's Asian.

But that point as well as so many others seem lost on the OP.

[Rockstone]

29. Not at all

I have known of the country and its people for years. I have seen documnentaries and a friend of mine lived there for quite some time.

My bet is that Cohen picked it because it ended in "istan".

[Shakespeare]

31. No, I think Cohen picked it because so few people are familiar with it.

Which is vitally necessary to his being able to successfully carry off his character--if he's something familiar, people are more likely to be suspicious and wary. Choosing to make the character from Kazakhstan pretty much gives him a blank slate as far as how his targets will perceive him.

It's got nothing to do with making fun of third world countries, but everything to do with using his targets' ignorance.

[Rockstone]

44. It evokes Pakistan and Afghanistan

Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan... those would be the basic american perception - some remote muslim country we don't know much about...

[Kelly Rupert]

49. Yes. Which is the joke. Americans know nothing about the world.

[Shakespeare]

50. And that's my point. n/t

[Rockstone]

67. But it is saying

people from there live with farm animals, shit in a box and their sister is a prostitute, etc... And saying at a time when we are calling these people inferior evil savages and going to their country to kill them, blow up their weddings, etc.

How is that fit into your point?

[LeftCoast]

108. I don't think people going to watch Borat believe they're seeing a documentary.

It's a comedy. The whole 'gag' is that the audience knows Cohen is fooling the people on camera. The audience is in on the joke. That's why it's funny.

[Rockstone]

235. making jokes about someone can be a form of abuse

in consideration of deceiving and humiliating those in poverty, I'd say it was very abusive.

[Warren DeMontague]

262. Hmmm. "Abuse". Perhaps we can prosecute him!

I mean, shit, for the past couple decades the religious right has had pretty much a monopoly on the uptight, humorless, puritannical, Mrs. Goddamn Grundy streak in our society.

By going after Borat, perhaps we can prove that certain parts of "the left" can still give those folks a run for their completely-and-utterly-constitutionally-fucking-incapable-of-taking-a-joke-under-any-circumstances-whatsoever money.

[Jed Dilligan]

114. I think it was more than that

Cohen is of Russian Jewish extraction, the "Kazakhs" are none other than the "Cossacks" who were infamous for executing pogroms. I think he's using them to stand for backwards, anti-Semitic peoples in general.

[Leopolds Ghost]

140. EXCELLENT point -- I didn't know they were related.

The Cossacks probably crossed the Volga and moved into Russia centuries ago, however. They were mercenaries of the Czar. They liked to kill people in general, too.

[grizmaster]

173. Kazhakstan is in Eurasia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan

"the Republic of Kazakhstan, is a country that stretches over a vast expanse of northern and central Eurasia. A small portion of its territory west of the Ural River is located in eastern-most Europe."

[Shakespeare]

192. Uh, yes--I'm well aware of where Kazakhstan is.

Not sure why you were responding to my post...

[smirkymonkey]

86. Kazakhs are an ethnic group however, of Turkic origin

(linguistically - Turkic refers to the language family.) Interestingly enough, the nation is only a little more than 1/2 Kazakh. See demographics below from Wikipedia:

"The population is estimated to be 53% ethnic Kazakhs and 30% ethnic Russians, with an amazingingly rich array of other groups represented, including Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Germans, Chechens, and Uyghurs - that is, virtually any group that has ever come under the Russian sphere of influence. This diverse demography is due to the country's central location and its historical use by Russia as a place to send colonists, dissidents, and minority groups from its other frontiers - one can almost not understand Kazakhstan without understanding population transfer in the Soviet Union. From the 1930s until the 1950s, many minorities had been interned in labor camps often merely due to their heritage or beliefs, mostly on collective orders by Stalin. This makes Kazakhstan one of the few places on earth where normally-disparate Germanic, Indo-Iranian, Chinese, Chechen, and Turkic groups live together in a rural setting and not as a result of modern immigration. Most of the population speaks Russian; only half of ethnic Kazakhs speak Kazakh fluently, although it is enjoying a renaissance. Both Kazakh and Russian languages have official status."

Maybe Sacha Baron-Cohen chose Kazakhstan due the fact that it is so little known AND so diverse.

[Leopolds Ghost]

141. Interestingly, the Great Plains Midwest is one of those places, too.

Go to small towns in Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming and you will find:

German towns
Swedish towns
Basque towns
Estonian settlements
African-American settlements
Asian settlements
Eritrean settlements
Somalian settlements
Religious communities

etc.

Of course, the Plains are slowly drying up and being turned over to agribusiness, so many of these places are losing population.

[Ian David]

2. Borat is making fun of US, not of Kazakhstan.

I just saw the movie today, and while I have some misgiving about his methods, I think it was a brilliant way to turn a mirror upon Americans.

[Bucky]

8. "Khazakstan have many problem, social, political, and Jew" -- I think that joke is on the Khazaks.

But seriously, aren't all foriegners just a little funny?

[Nevernose]

239. No, that's an attempt to bring out the anti-Semitism in Americans

For instance, in the Ali G episode in the Nashville bar, where he performs "Throw the Jew Down the Well." The joke is neither on Khazaks nor on Jews -- it's on the rednecks who join in vociferously in the singing of "Throw the Jew Down the Well."

[BlooInBloo]

162. Like, for example, the OP.

[BeyondThePale]

3. Borat is satire, not racism (eom)

[XemaSab]

160. I read an article about Steppin Fetchit a few months ago making the

same claim: satire, not racism.

One could say the same thing about Amos n' Andy or any number of portrayals of African Americans.

But the fact remains: if the Armenians or Koreans were portrayed as racist, backwards idiots by someone who was not Armenian or Korean, there would be hell to pay.

[BeyondThePale]

259. I politely disagree...

Borat is satirizing Americans and their lack of sophistication and knowledge about the world. I really think the link to institutionalized racism against African Americans is tenuous at best. Does he make fun of Khazaks--sure. Is it part of an established program of repression--hardly. And btw, I think that he played a satirical French character in one of his most recent films--a film that satirized American "bubba NASCAR" culture.

Cheers

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. It's the complete opposite

Blackface is designed to denigrate the race represented by the performer; it is designed to make the audience feel superior. Borat's schtick is designed to denigrate the audience itself, to show up its own prejudices and assumptions. This is pr3ecisely what Cohen is so good at: making people expose their own prejudices. The reason people are so casual with Borat is because of the disdain they hold foreigners from places like Kazakhstan in the first place. By having them play out their condescension and disdain, Cohen is really making fun of THEM, not the people of Kazakhstan. This is completely different from blackface: blackface was always designed to bring out the worst qualities imagined by whites about blacks. Borat is designed to bring out the real assumptions of the people he comes into contact with, and ridicule THEM on that basis.

It would be like a blackface performance in which the real clown was the white audience, and any white interlocutors, rather than the blackface role. (In fact, there was a measure of this flipping in some blackface performance, but it was so nuanced and underground that the white folks often didn't get that they were the butt of the joke).

[SouthernBelle82]

46. You got it right

I haven't seen the movie yet but just by watching him in public etc. that's what I get from him.

[Maddy McCall]

260. LOL.

But then you wouldn't review a movie you'd never seen, would you?

:eyes:

[ebayfool]

261. Well, that just about finished off this keyboard ... good thing I stock up

when I find 'em on sale!

:rofl:

[grizmaster]

174. well said

"This is precisely what Cohen is so good at: making people expose their own prejudices."

[Goblinmonger]

183. Great post

In some regards it is like the humor of Andy Kaufman. He made the audience the brunt of the joke and not the ones "getting" it. Reading Great Gatsby word for word was HILARIOUS but only if you step outside the whole experience and realize that he is testing the audience. Maybe it's too highbrow for a lot of people.

[mikelewis]

244. When you're done with your brain...

can I have it?...

Well, said.

[Bucky]

5. Long history of Americans lynching Khazakis? Check.

Or didn't they teach you that in school?

[LTR]

6. I'll bet you laughed when Eddie Murphy played an old Jewish man

Can we not be politically correct ONCE in a while?

[boolean]

7. HA!

Not politically correct? Do you not read the board?

[LTR]

13. I know, I know

Got a verbal lashing last week because I said Ann Coulter looked like a man. I was told that I was being mean to transgender people or something like that.

Some people just have no sense of humor.

[Mr_Spock]

92. lol - tell me about it...

What is that expression re: once you lose your sense of humor?

[slackmaster]

18. I sure did

That was hilarious.

[Lex]

10. Borat is using this persona to show how racistt, homophobic, & anti-Semitic WE are

here in America, and I assume in Britain too.

[Ian David]

14. EXACTLY!

Borak talks about the racism and anti-semitism in his "homeland" so he can draw-out Americans to talk about it themselves.

Or, in some cases, to sing about it.

"Throw the Jew down the well!"

If you want to see something disturbing, just check the rodeo scene in the movie.

He tells one of the rodeo directors that in his country, they put gays in jail and "finish them." The rodeo guy says, "We're working on trying to do that here."

And then, he gets most of the crowd to cheer George W. Bush killing every man, woman and child in Iraq and drinking their blood. But the camera does single-out a few people who were obviously (and justifiably) troubled by that.

Borat is about America-- the best and worst of us.

The naked wrestling with a fat guy is just a bonus.

[Kelly Rupert]

30. Correct.

Anyone who can't see that is either missing the point or proving it.

[Mr_Spock]

93. proving it

I find him annoying, but not because I think he is trying to hurt anyone :eyes:

Next thing they'll be attacking Colbert's satire :eyes:

[npincus]

11. oh, come on-- it's SATIRE

See the movie before going off on it.

I loved "Borat", laughed my butt off-- and loudly at the Anti-Semitic humor, and I'm Jewish BTW.

Because the Borat character is such an ignoramus, the views he espouses are naturally idiotic and are being mocked, that's the subtext. The absurd offensive remarks he blithely drops are presented as the blatherings of an idiot, and are therefore idiotic. If you take his words at face value, you aren't getting the point. I think that DUers would like it, if they saw it. There's a great scene (2 in fact) with former Republican Congressmen. The one with Bob Barr was worth the price of admission.

It is really f-cking funny. Sorry, but I think some here (Borat-bashers who haven't even seen the movie) need to lighten up. It's SATIRE.

[Rockstone]

17. I have reservations about whether to given Cohen my money

"and loudly at the Anti-Semitic humor, and I'm Jewish BTW."

You're laughing at the idiocy of an anti-semite. Being Jewish has nothing to do with that. If you were Jewish and laughing at a Muslim comedian making fun of Jews, and still found it funny, that would be the validation your point was looking for with that statement.

This is a Jew making fun of Arabs as being stupid, idiotic, abusive, unhygenic, incestrous, raping, etc. At a time when we are in the middle east causing all kinds of death to these people for selfish reasons. That's an uncomfortable position.

When Lenny Bruce did made fun of people, he at least made fun of everybody, put everybody on a level playing field and we weren't literally raping their nations at the time.

I saw the 1/2 hour show on Comedy Central and I like the airplane toilet joke best. I am sure I would laugh my head off, but the circumstances make me have to question even myself. No offense to anyone - why would I myself even find this funny? WHat about those people he used? The old man Cohen taped a sex toy on his amputated stump - is this really comedy? Is it even funny?

[Alexander]

20. Kazakhstani and Arab are NOT the same thing.

BTW, most Americans can't even locate Kazakhstan on a map. Cohen's playing on their ignorance, and getting a lot of people to admit and say things they'd never say to an average American.

You're so worried about stereotypes, and yet you confuse a nationality with a race.

:eyes:

[brentspeak]

24. I disagree. I think that Cohen is largely misrepresenting the people...

...he's pictured with in the film. Some editing, some misleading premise offered to his unwitting victims, some staged and made-up event (ie. the Romanian gypsies' "running of the Jews" festival), maybe some alcohol, and voila! See how anti-Semitic the people on film really are (when maybe they really aren't).

He's also such a chicken that he responds to critics' charges only when in character; Baron Cohen himself needs to hide behind Borat.

[Alexander]

34. Some of the people in his films are clearly anti-Semites.

Those frat kids in the RV, for example.

The people in the Tucson bar who sing along with "Throw the Jew down the well".

Also, he did an interview as Bruno where he went to Alabama - he asked this guy "What does freedom mean?" and the man responded, without provocation, with a bunch of anti-Semitic, anti-gay hatred.

[brentspeak]

52. There were dozens of young "Borat" fans singing "Throw the Jew down the well"

before a recent showtime, according to an article I read today. Of course, they don't really want to throw a Jew down a well, but that could very well be true also for the people in that Tuscon bar.

[Alexander]

111. I cited more examples than just the Tucson bar.

The frat kids in the RV in the Borat movie were sexist, racist and anti-Semitic.

The rancher in Texas who, after talking to Borat, expresses Nazi sympathies.

The second example is on YouTube, the first is in the movie. If you see it you'll know what I'm talking about.

[Monk06]

94. Full agreement here. SB Cohen knows nothing about the Kazakhs .....

For one thing they are neither backwards nor
stupid.

They also own the second largest Uranium reserves
in the world behind Australia and the Russians
and Chinese are agressively courting them.

Laugh at that Borat !!!!!

[Kelly Rupert]

153. It's not a matter of *him* not knowing.

By putting on that act and showing how unquestioningly Americans believe it, he's showing America how little *we* know about Kazakhs. And by presenting our stereotypes of the developing world and showing us how ridiculous they are, he drives home the point.

[Ian David]

172. Uranium? I thought it was Potasium! Oh, that Borat! He tricked me again! n/t

[Rockstone]

26. Nation or race, any identity symbol will do

A slur is a slur whether it is against a nation, race, sexual orientation, etc.

When he says "I flew first class, which meant I was only the 6th person to make a shit in the toilet box", how is that getting people to admit things they would never say to an average american? To me it is a slur against less advantaged people to suggest that "we're better than them. ha ha, wink wink..."

[Alexander]

39. See post #34.

He dupes a few people, yes, but a lot of them don't take much provocation before going on a hateful tirade about some group of people.

Another memorable case is when Borat went to this ranch in Texas, and rode around with an older rancher in a truck. He asked "Do you have Jews in this country?" and the guy responds with "Yes, and they all cause problems." After a little bit of discussion about Nazi Germany, the rancher responds with "They used to shoot them over there - which is fine with me."

Cohen shows the ugly side of certain Americans, the side they keep under wraps in front of "polite" company but are only too willing to expose in front of some guy they think is a dumb Kazakhstani.

BTW - I laughed my ass off at the movie.

[XemaSab]

163. To back that up

Most Kazakhstanis look more like Chinese/Mongolians than Arabs.

Go Ghengis Khan! :woohoo:

[AZBlue]

40. I couldn't agree with you more.

I think it's sad that this "funny" movie is doing so well at the Box Office - we really have dumbed ourselves down, haven't we? Way down!

[Shakespeare]

47. You know, if you don't want to see the movie, that's one thing.

But to suggest that this movie is in any way "dumb" is a profoundly ignorant thing to say. It's one of the smartest--painfully so--comedies I've seen in years. I understand that not everyone is comfortable with his satire, because it's pretty harsh. But one thing it is NOT is dumb.

[brentspeak]

54. Well, if the movie isn't dumb, and Baron Cohen is so "smart"...

...then he should have no trouble making an effective comedy that doesn't rely on duping and misrepresenting his films' subjects.

[Kelly Rupert]

57. It's difficult to make ambush comedy without ambushing people.

[brentspeak]

62. ...and selective editing and false premises and staged scenarios...

[Kelly Rupert]

65. Well, yeah.

You edit it to make it hit harder. So does any reality comedy. False premises? Staged scenarios? Yeah. Par for the course. You make people think the situation is different than it is. Nobody would have played along if he said, "Hello. I'm shooting a major Hollywood film making fun of the stereotypes of backwards Americans. Would you like to expose yourself as a contemptable racist for me? I will act like a Kazakh and say racist things, and you will agree. Is this acceptable?"

[Shakespeare]

99. He's already done that.

He was hysterically funny in Talladega Nights, and has been cast as one of the lead characters in the upcoming film adaptation of Sweeney Todd.

Yes, his talent extends far beyond Borat.

[AZBlue]

198. Talladega Nights? Ah...to answer your response to me above, you and I obviously have

very different definitions of the words "funny" and "dumb."

[Ian David]

176. Tell that to Allen Funt (what a moron!).... NOT!

Candid Camera
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Candid Camera is a long-running television series, created and produced by Allen Funt, which initially appeared on radio as Candid Microphone in the 1940s. After a series of theatrical film shorts, also titled Candid Microphone, Funt's concept came to television on August 10, 1948.

The premise of the show involved concealed cameras filming ordinary people being confronted with unusual situations, sometimes involving trick props, such as a desk with drawers that pop open when one is closed or a car with a hidden extra gas tank. When the joke was revealed, victims would be told the show's famous catch phrase, "Smile, you're on Candid Camera." With humor based on putting real people in fabricated situations, the show was very much a precursor to the more recent wave of prank shows such as Punk'd and Girls Behaving Badly.

Writer Woody Allen got his start writing for the show in the 1960s and performed in some scenarios. Buster Keaton and Muhammad Ali also appeared in Candid Camera segments.

The show often played its hidden camera pranks on celebrities as well. One memorable episode had actress Ann Jillian (who is Lithuanian) scheduled to make a small donation to a Lithuanian charity. When police officers informed her a con artist was behind the charity, they convinced her to donate a much larger amount with the assurance that he would be arrested when he accepted the check. After an arrest attempt, Jillian was told the man was running a legitimate charity, a set-up that forced her into acting as though she had intended to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars all along.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candid_Camera


See also:

Totally Hidden Video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totally_Hidden_Video

Scare Tactics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_tactics

Punk'd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk%27d

The Joe Schmo Show http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joe_Schmo_Show

Tom Green Show http://www.tomgreenshow.com

The Andy Milonakis Show http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Milonakis

Spy TV http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spy_TV&action=edit

Oblivious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblivious

Crank Yankers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_Yankers

T.H.E.M. - Totally Hidden Extreme Magic
www.ellusionist.com/Them-Totally-Hidden-Extreme-Magicians.htm

And my personal favorite:
The Jamie Kennedy Experiment http://www.tv.com/jamie-kennedy-experiment/show/7820/summary.html

[laheina]

64. I am in total agreement with your post.

And btw, I don't find it funny--at all.

[npincus]

70. if Cohen were Jewish or Muslim or Druid

I'd laugh all the same- it's humor, funny is funny. I thought the flick was hilarious, actually.

I really think you are over-thinking all this. It's not that deep. Perhaps the movie isn't for you.

[Irreverend IX]

168. It's an accusation of racism...

By someone who sees all Middle Eastern people as "Arab." Snicker.

[Ian David]

178. I see it differently

I see Borat as using the stereotypes to expose and ridicule those who have them.

When he says to someone, "In my home country of Kazakhstan, we put gays in jail and finish them," it's because the next sentence out of the mouth of the rodeo guy is, "Well, we're working on that here."

He's also exposing how ignorant many Americans truly are-- that people actually believe him when he says that in his country it is socially acceptable to keep retards in cages and to rape women.

It's a way of exposing how ignorant and biased many Americans truly are-- that they don't call bullshit and realize that they're being had.

It's also a way of drawing them out to admit that they share those biases or accept those practices.

Or to get them to take a stand against them.

It is encouraging that sometimes people put their foot down and flat-out tell Borat that he's wrong. For example, they showed that some people at the rodeo refused to cheer when Borat suggested that Bush should kill every last Iraqi and drink their blood. Or when the feminists who told him off.

Another thing that's encouraging are that people often go out of their way to accommodate his different culture, for example by letting Borat kiss them on the cheeks.

Borat is about US-- the best and the worst of us.

[Shakespeare]

193. "I'm not used to that, but that's OK"

I loved the driving instructor--he was gruff but very kind (and patient!). His reaction to being kissed on the cheeks cracks me up.

[brentspeak]

12. This guy, Sacha Baron (???) Cohen sounds like a real jerk

I read an article today concerning the Romanian gypsies he used in his "Borat" film. These utterly dirt-poor, powerless people are furious that they were manipulated by "Borat"; they were told that a documentary on their poverty was being made, not a comedic film where they would be used as a punchline. One of the gypsies, speaking of how humiliated the village now feels: "We haven't got anything here. We haven't got running water. We can't even bathe," she said. "We are poor people, but we are still people." (from this article: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies/1402AP_Romania_Borat_Backlash.html)

[Ian David]

15. That does trouble me. Let's see what we can do to help those people.

Unless, of course, their village actually DOES have an annual "Running of The Jew" festival.

[EdwardM]

74. If this is true what they are saying.

Sasha Cohen did something wrong. When I saw that movie, I thought the part with his village was completely staged. I didn't realise that he tricked a poor Romanian village into being exploited. If he did this, he deserves a kick in the nuts.

[FredScuttle]

98. They're destitute, yet they saw the movie?

OK.

[brentspeak]

120. No. Not "OK".

I don't know how they were informed about what was in the film, but it's irrelevant -- these are people who have to hunt in garbage cans for food.

[FredScuttle]

169. "Hunt in garbage cans for food"

How dare you demean and spread such vicious smears against these people! Next thing you know, you'll be telling me they live with cows inside their homes and have horses drag their cars! :sarcasm:

You know, for a destitute people, they sure put out a professional sounding press release. Is Azamat their publicist too?

[On the Road]

121. They Didn't Need to See the Movie

The villagers know what's in the scenes -- they were actors and props. They brought farm animals into their houses by request (which they would never do in real life). They just didn't realize they were being mocked.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

16. Borat isn't a caricature!

The whole point of him is that he *doesn't* confirm to or promote stereotypes about Kazakhs, because there aren't any (unless you count "no-one in the West knows anything about their culture).

The point of him is that he satirises *American* foibles and follies. Kazackistan is just somewhere to say he comes from.

[Rockstone]

19. So it's good then, that the Khazaks are asian

so it suggests "I didn't really mean you"...

[XemaSab]

164. Looks like some people in this thread

have some stereotypes about Kazakhs, like they're some Russified Arab Muslims.

:shrug:

[Kelly Rupert]

21. Because Borat is a riff on us and our perceptions of the world.

The comedy wouldn't work if Borat were a realistic character; there wouldn't be any comedy. The satire comes from the shocking ease in which Americans accept a ridiculous racist cariacture of a racist, backwards foreigner.

Mr. Baron Cohen is a biting satirist. Watch Da Ali G show sometime. He knows what he's doing.

[sendero]

23. Exactly..

... I enjoyed the movie, the first one I've seen in a theatre in ages.

I could have done without seeing that fat guy though :)

[KoKo]

22. Thanks for the reviews. I was going to see his movie ...but I'll take a pass.

I'm not in the mood to see a Jewish Comedian making fun of Muslims these days. Sorry...just isn't my thing.

[eeyore]

32. You're missing out, IMO...

He is an extremely liberal guy exposing the conservative freaks of the country for their intolerance. I honestly can't see how anyone could possibly be offended by the movie. It's over the top obvious that he is against all of the things that his character is for. It's a great movie and an amazingly witty social commentary on the state of much of our nation. If anything it's sad and a bit frightening that he all too easily finds people to agree with Borat's outrageous attitudes.

Don't cheat yourself out of seeing it based on the remarks of a bunch of knee-jerk people who have never seen the movie. There are absolutely no references to Muslims in the movie that I can recall, and the guy even "finds Jesus".

:)

[KoKo]

33. Thanks....I'll check out some Movie sites for more reviews and see

if I can handle it as satire, then. :hi:

[wicket]

51. Check out rottentomatoes.com:

LINK

My fave movie review site, it compiles reviews from all over.

[Rockstone]

59. rottentomatos is awesome. the best

Now I do want to see it. %93! A lot of controversy. interesting reads

[wicket]

145. 93% is certainly impressive!

Hope to see it this weekend :D

[VforVicarious]

53. It's like Southpark

It's an equal opportunity offender that spares no one. And the other poster was right. It is so ridiculously over the top that you can't really be offended.

And just to let ya know, The Anti-Defamation League has approved of Borat, if only with a little concern that his extremely smart comedy might go over some people's heads.

So relax and go see the movie, you'll be a better person because of it

[SidDithers]

109. Extremely smart comedy going over people's heads...

good thing that's not happening here!

Sid

[Kelly Rupert]

35. Well, there is that one scene that could offend more than a few stomachs.

Unless you're into the extended naked-wrestling-of-hairy-fat-man business.

[Rockstone]

36. "absolutely no references to Muslims"?

OK, so he must be making fun of some other virulently anti-semetic culture in near poverty that admires tacky american suits.

[Kelly Rupert]

45. No, he's adopting a cariacture of a Central Asian to show how racist Americans are.

The dude's obviously not a faithful Muslim. Stop proving Baron Cohen's point, please.

[Rockstone]

56. What's the predominant religion in central Asia?

for countries whose names end with "stan"?

[Kelly Rupert]

63. Islam, of course.

But the character is clearly nonobservant. He is culturally not the slightest bit Muslim--he has never heard of Jesus, he believes in Jewish and Gypsy Magic, he has frequent casual sexual encounters with both men and women, he doesn't obey any cleanliness laws--there isn't anything Muslim about Borat.

Saying it's making fun of Muslims because most Central Asians are Muslim is like saying it's making fun of people with dark hair because most Central Asians have dark hair.

[everythingsxen]

84. Also adding to the ignorance factor of Americans...

Kazakhs are 53% of the population. Kazakhs are mostly, well, asian looking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qazaq

Also, while Islam is the most dominant religion (47%), Russian Orthodox is second most popular at 44% with 2% Protestant and 7% other rounding it out.

[Telly Savalas]

89. Furthermore, Borat's non-English greetings are actually in Polish

At least in the segments I've seen on the Ali G show. (Haven't seen the movie, Borat is my least favourite of his 3 characters.)

[Rockstone]

91. So why do central asians hate jews?

What is it Cohen is getting at with the Jew hating stereotype of Central Asians if it has nothing to do with them being predominantly Muslim?

[wickerwoman]

132. Why do the Germans or the Russians hate Jews?

Hell, why do so many Americans hate Jews? Anti-semitism didn't even originate with Muslims. They're just recycling good old fashioned Christian anti-semitism. And, as was pointed out upthread, the Kazahks are more popularly known as "Cossacks" who were infamous for their pograms just like the rest of Russia that wasn't Muslim.

Plus thanks to Stalin's effort to re-settle dissenters, Muslims are essentially a minority in Kazakhstan. The culture isn't predominantly Muslim. And the adjectival form is "Kazakh" not "Kazakhstani". I've been to Kazakhstan (around the Altay Mountains) and the culture is much more Chinese and Russian than Muslim at least in the parts I visited.

[Kelly Rupert]

220. His point is that pretty much everyone is anti-semitic.

Americans included.

[smirkymonkey]

77. Actually in Kazakhstan, only about 1/2 the population is Muslim

and the other 1/2 is Christian (mostly Russian Orthodox, some protestant.) Check out the demographics of the country - it's interesting and varied. Perhaps that's why Baron-Cohen chose it - it's not a very homogenous population, ethnically or religiously.

[Kelly Rupert]

79. It's kinda funny how the people who are complaining the most about

Borat are the ones who are most proving his point.

[Rockstone]

236. Another way to look at it is

the people with the poorest arguments have nothing but to resort to but attacking their opponent.

[Shakespeare]

256. I don't see anybody attacking you.

I do, however, see spirited debate. Last time I checked, that's a good thing, and this is a discussion board.

[grizmaster]

218. Borat specifically says he's NOT muslim during the movie

in the rodeo scene he tells the guy warning him about his mustache making him look muslim that he's not muslim.

As to what other virulently anti-semitic group he could be part of- christian comes to mind. You might remember a little thing called the Holocaust perpetrated by christians and the russian pogroms.

[upi402]

119. supposed to be top 3 funniest ever

[CatWoman]

28. Wow

there was this movie on tv last night on TCM in which the lead character performed in black face.

I was sooooo fucking OFFENDED!! :grr:

[kskiska]

71. I saw it. The Al Jolson Story.

Also, this Christmas season, they'll most likely be showing "Holiday Inn," where Bing Crosby performs in blackface.

:hi: Hi Cat!!

[CatWoman]

100. Hi K

:hi:

*groan*

Bing Crosby? et tu Bing?

:puke:

[NYC Liberal]

37. I'll bet you think Colbert is really a conservative Republican too, huh? nt

[Hippo_Tron]

128. I was about to say the same thing

By the way after seeing that picture I must say that I'm a big fan of your President Bush and his father Barbara

:evilgrin:

[AZBlue]

38. It's worse. It dupes people and harms them.

It's disgusting.

[Shakespeare]

43. Yeah, I felt so sorry for that old cowboy.

You know the one that wants to hang all the homos? But I admire him for sticking by his guns when he was interviewed recently and said "hell yeah, I said it."

Poor, poor victims. :cry:

[Kelly Rupert]

48. Yeah, I felt really bad for the frat boys, too

I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't have spewed all that racist, misogynist garbage if Mr. Baron Cohen had just told them it was going to be a movie satirizing American prejudices. I feel absolutely awful that their horrible opinions were broadcast to Americans and not Kazakhs.

[Marie26]

87. By revealing who they really are? nt

[KingFlorez]

41. Because there is parody and then there is deliberate racism

Blackface was deliberate racism to offend people, Borat is just an over the top parody which isn't meant to offend anyone.

[Marie26]

42. It's not making fun of Muslims, it's making fun of Americans. nt

[Rockstone]

55. Isn't he making fun of poverty?

"sixth person to shit in a box" is not making fun of americans.
having a prostitute as a sister in not making fun of americans
living with farm animals is not making fun of americans

So on one hand he exposes the bigotry of unspohisticated americans, but he also perpetuates some stereotypes that are somewhat offensive given the plight of a lot of those people, especially at the moment.

Here's the crux. How prevalent is his "Borat is a poverty goof" image? It must just be background for the gags he sets up?

Here's another question - was Damon Wayne's HandYman - parody of the handicapped superhero over the top? That was another one that made me wonder if there was such a thing as going too far for comedy.

[Kelly Rupert]

58. He's not perpetuating the stereotypes.

He's exploding them. It's comedic reductio ad absurdum--presenting the American view of the developing world in its full realization. It presents all of our stereotypes onscreen at once, and it's absolutely ridiculous, and we laugh. Have you actually seen it?

[Rockstone]

61. Not yet. maybe this weekend.

[brentspeak]

Wait a minute. How is he "presenting the American view of the developing world..."

when he has a pseudo-Kazakh phony journalist "document" a Romanian gypsy village?

I think part of the problem with this whole Borat thing is that Baron Cohen's educational background -- he graduated from Cambridge -- by default ludicrously makes him out to be some sort of genius intellectual comedian, when in fact, he's just a cynically crafty attention-grabber.

[Kelly Rupert]

69. I assume you haven't seen the movie, because that's not what's presented.

At all. His "Kazakh" journalist is showing his "Kazakh Hometown" before he heads off to the States, and in doing so embodies every single stereotype Americans have of Central Asians and in ludicrous fashion. It's a great introduction to the character and the movie.

[brentspeak]

73. Who's perpetuating the alleged "American" stereotype of Central Asians? Borat!

Where are all the Americans who allegedly hold the view that dirt poor Central Asians sleep next to their farm animals?

[Kelly Rupert]

75. See the movie, then complain about it.

It is not presented in such a way that anyone could think that it is meant to be a realistic portrayal of Kazakhs. Instead, it's ridiculous, ludicrous, and as such, hilarious.

And you can't claim it's perpetuating stereotypes that Americans don't hold. That's just...weird.

[brentspeak]

80. Maybe the person who REALLY holds that stereotype is an upper-middle class British guy

with a talent for shameless attention-grabbing. And duplicity.

[Kelly Rupert]

81. That's just laughable.

[brentspeak]

85. And the only thing "weird" is your intellectual defense of Baron Cohen's....

...crass exploitation of dirt-poor Romanian gypsies.

[Kelly Rupert]

88. I don't recall defending his exploitation of Romanians.

I said that his movie was not comparable to blackface, because rather than perpetuating stereotypes, it was mocking them and those who hold them.

Rather intellectually dishonest of you to try to conflate a defense of his art with a defense of his off-stage practices.

[brentspeak]

90. I recall you defending his film...and his exploitation of Romanian gypsies

in two sentences: "His "Kazakh" journalist is showing his "Kazakh Hometown" before he heads off to the States, and in doing so embodies every single stereotype Americans have of Central Asians and in ludicrous fashion. It's a great introduction to the character and the movie."

"...his art..."

His wha...? :crazy: His art??? If Baron Cohen is an "artist", then the makers of "Jackass: The Movie" must be Michelangelo and Da Vinci.

"a defense of his off-stage practices."

Yeah, as if what happened with abusing the gypsies is not something related to his film. It's as irrelevent to the current discussion as is Baron Cohen's off-stage hobbies and musicical preferences...

:eyes:

[Kelly Rupert]

95. That isn't defending exploitation.

That's saying that his picture is not racist. I haven't said a word about his business practices.

[WindRavenX]

97. Because he is exposing AMERICAN bigorty

Of course most Americans aren't going to go on record saying they hate gays, jews, etc. By playing a *fictional* character, Cohen is drawing out hidden behavior that is genuine bigotry.

If you think Borat is racist, then how is Chapelle's Show not racist? It's the same thing-- both are using racially charged language/imagery to make social commentary; it does NOT make them racist.

Good grief I think DU needs lessions in methods of humor x(

[Rockstone]

101. There are two different discussions going on

evoking the responses from the people is one thing

the image promoted by his character is another

the ethics of his deceptions necessary for the art are a third thing

treatment of the Romanians yet another

There are many aspects to this and and you are reducing them all to one. So don't tell people that they are thinking wrong when you are only addressing a single facet.

[WindRavenX]

103. Well, they're wrong if they fail to recognize it as satire

It's the same as saying Colbert is a bona-fide RWer.

[semillama]

159. Lessons in humor

You know, there's all this yelling about being politically correct, but you want to know what will REALLY set some one off? Tell them they don't have as sophisticated a sense of humor as someone else. Then sit back and watch the mushroom cloud...

Seriously, there are obviously different standards of humor and people find certain things funny and other people don't. I think what it boils down to in sophisticated humor is that some people cannot get past a certain point in humor that pushes its way into uncomfortable territory. What it seems like to me is that some of the people who complain the most about certain forms of humor are being forced to confront something dark in themselves.

I saw the movie and it was obvious to me that the "Kazakh" village had been dressed up (or down if you would) with props to make it look like a poverty-stricken, backward place, but if you looked carefully, it was obvious that many of the houses displayed a high level of craftsmanship (Borat's neighbor, for instance - the woodworking on the second story of his house was especially nice). The whole point of Borat's obviously false portrayl of typical Kazakh culture was to provide a comparison to the supposedly highly developed Western societies that are the real targets of his satire. Obviously, we don't have "The Running of the Jews" here, but including something patently ridiculous like that sets up something that we, the audience, are all supposed to agree is terrible and wrong. Then Baron hits us with real anti-semitism and it's that much more shocking. The guy is brilliant.

Plus, anyone who can film that wrestling scene in the hotel deserves your respect.

[Marie26]

72. IMO, no.

I haven't seen the movie, so I can't really speak w/much authority on this. But, based on the previews, the actual intention is not to make fun of Kazaktan, but Americans - the country itself is just background & set-up for the satire. Kazaktan is a real country, but it didn't have to be - Borat could be from Ilvania & most Americans wouldn't know the difference. Borat isn't a representative of any country or race or religion in particular, but simply a caricature of most Americans' views of foreigners. In the same way that Colbert is a caricature of the obnoxious right-winger. In his right-wing guise, Colbert can lead real conservatives into exposing how crazy & extreme they really are. In the same way, Borat, in his "backward foreigner" guise, can lead Americans into exposing their real xenophobia & racism. The joke's on us, not on Kazakstan. It's subversive, and exactly the opposite of "blackface". I agree that sometimes comedy can go too far, but the litmus test for me is the effect on the audience. Is the audience supposed to feel superior & laugh the character, or are we supposed to laugh at the reactions he inspires? "Borat" seems intended to make Americans laugh (and cringe) at our own foibles & imperfections, & I think that's healthy. Anything that prompts some cultural self-examination is healthy.

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. He's not perpetuating stereotypes: he's exposing them as ridiculous

This isn't going to sink in with you, I guess.

[aikoaiko]

60. Cohen isn't just making fun of kazahkis, americans, arabs or muslims.

He's making fun of everyone and anyone

[Pyrzqxgl]

66. the age of blackface in popular entertainment was also the age of

drunken pig-under-the-arm Irishmen, lazy Latinos, Italian organ grinders who call eveyone boss and pop songs like:
"The Argentines, The Portuguese & The Greeks"
"Where do you worka John, on the Delaware Lackawanna"
"My little bimbo down on the Bamboo Isle"
"Chong he come from Hong Kong"
I remember once Dr. Demento did a radio show where he insulted evey ethnic minority ever celebrated in song and closed with a song that insulted white anglo-saxon Protestants

[leftofthedial]

68. It's the same thing

and it's a valid kind of humor

the fact that there is no cry of outrage from the nannies here at DU is, along with a similar silence when males are the targets of sexist humor, an artifact of faux-progressive hyposcrisy

[DireStrike]

78. Everybody's still having fun with Borat

Can't we wait until the party's over to poop on it?

[Rockstone]

82. I'm only the sixth person to poop on it.

:hurts:
First Class

[Generator]

83. Oh my God they are debating Borat in GD instead of the lounge, honey-

come look.

[LSK]

96. HIDE THE CHILDREN!!!

:scared:


ps: I have never seen this guy and cannot comment further.

[FredScuttle]

102. What a fucking embarrassing thread

blackface? really? you want to play that card?

[WindRavenX]

104. my thoughts exactly

Borat is exposing American bigotry and people think the satirist himself is bigoted.

:thumbsdown:

[FredScuttle]

107. I would love, for once...

for people to actually see the film before they comment on what a threat to Western civilization Borat is.

Funniest movie I've seen all year....and the most horrifying, especially the scenes in the rodeo, the frat boys in the camper and, of course, the most repellent fight scene in movie history.

[spoony]

224. I agree and...oh, that fight scene, lol.

Cohen, to me, is this generation's Kaufman. I've never seen a movie like this before, and it puts to shame the parade of lame retread comedies Hollywood churns out.

[XemaSab]

165. You think Al Jolson is bigoted?

:shrug:

[T Town Jake]

105. Jeesuz...must be a full moon on tonight.

For the record: I've seen the movie in question, and laughed my ass off. I'd see it again in a heartbeat - and not feel a shred of any kind of guilt about it.

[npincus]

177. me too.

LOVED it. Some of our friends here (who haven't even SEEN the movie) need to lighten up.

[otherlander]

106. The English, the Irish, the German, the Dutch,

they all went out to gather some nuts.
The nuts were rotten,
they were good for nothin...
The English, the Irish, the German, the Dutch.

[drb]

110. How far do you think he would have gotten if he were an Arab pretending to be....

...a rude, stupid, obnoxious Jew?

[JacksonWest]

113. Pretty far, sadly.

In some places.

Borat is hilarious, and doesn't really play into any modern stereotypes of arabs, imho. In saying this, I think the prevalent stereotypes of arabs are found in "they're all terrorists" or "religious fundamentalists".

Borat is a throwback to the late great Kaufman, and his ubiquitous "foreign man" routine. Cohen picks a country we know nothing about(for the most part) and lets his subjects reveal their own prejudices. He, along with the audience, is laughing at the people.

IN black face, the object is to subvert the subject matter that the black face portrays. You want the audience to laugh at you, not with you, as you mock African-Americans. The people are all in on the joke, which is to degrade African-Americans. Nobody thinks that someone in black face is an actual black person.

While you can go down that road and validly say that Borat could be offensive to all Arabs-I don't think that's the intent or the effect. But, like so many other things, it is very subjective. Most humor is offensive to someone somewhere. It usually boils down to how much you choose to be offended. Is "Something about Mary" a funny movie, or does it exploit the handicapped, mock domestic violence, and validate stalking?

I don't think this rises to the level of black face.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Balbus]

210. Yay, we have a "The filthy Jooooos control everything" post!!!

Haven't seen one of those around here for a few weeks.

[Lurking Dem]

211. They've been here.

The mods have been working hard.

[BoneDaddy]

112. It is different in it's intention

Blackface was a demonization of a race of people through mockery.
Borat is using the racist stereotype (similar to an Archie Bunker) who is a lightning rod for the racism and sexism in today's society. It is a lesson in awareness, that these things are no where near addressed.

[Jed Dilligan]

115. Sacha Baron Cohen has plenty of reason

to get back at the Kazakhs (=Cossacks). It's more like Dave Chappelle making fun of whites than blackface.

[brentspeak]

117. What does Cohen need to "get back" at the Kazakhs for?

"Cossacks" is not derived from "Kazakhs". But in any case, what would the Cossacks -- infamous for their Jewish pogroms, until the Soviet Union pretty much put a stop to that sometime in the 1920's -- have to do with Sacha Baron Cohen, a 21st century, thirty-something British citizen, Cambridge-graduate, who was raised in an English upper-middle-class family?

[Shakespeare]

123. Yes, actually, it is.

From Brittanica.com:

Cossacks

Peoples dwelling in the northern hinterlands of the Black and Caspian seas. The term (from the Turkic kazak, “free person”) originally referred to semi-independent Tatar groups, which formed in the Dnieper River region. Later it was also applied to peasants who had fled from serfdom in Poland, Lithuania, and Muscovy to the Dnieper and Don regions. The Cossacks had a tradition of independence and received privileges from the Russian government in return for military services. They were used as defenders of the Russian frontier and advance guards for imperial territorial expansion. Attempts in the 17th–18th century to reduce their privileges caused revolts, led by Stenka Razin and Yemelyan Pugachov, and the Cossacks gradually lost their autonomous status.

[Kelly Rupert]

157. Yeah, but Cossacks aren't related to Kazakhs.

The words are related but not the people.

[Ignacio Upton]

127. SBC's Jewish ancestry is Iranian-Jewish, not Russian-Jewish

n/t.

[Leopolds Ghost]

142. And there are still a fair number of Jews who live in Iran.

Used to be in Baghdad, too, until Israel and the US kept up hostilities on Iraq and other Middle-Eastern countries and told Sephardic Jews "if you don't like it, move to Israel, you have no business living in a Muslim country anyway." So Saddam and other leaders changed tack and said the same thing. The result was the destruction of thousand-year-old communities, dating back to the Babylonian captivity. A lot of Israelis look down on diaspora Jews, and think they're foot-draggers for not moving back to Israel -- an economic transaction which of course merely benefits current Israelis. It's sort of like open-borders conservatives who say "if you don't like it in Mexico, move to the US... we're hiring."

[Ian David]

189. See: THE SILENT EXODUS

Silent Exodus was selected at the International Human Rights Film Festival of Paris (2004) and presented at the UN Geneva Human Rights Annual Convention (2004)



In 1948 nearly one million Jews lived in Arab lands. But In barely twenty years, they have become forgotten fugitives, expelled from their native lands, forgotten by history and where the victims themselves have hidden their fate under a cloak of silence.

A people whom legend have always associated with "wandering" many of these Jews from Arab lands had lived there for thousands of years and accepted their fate, through good times and bad times.

But 1948, the beginning of their exodus, also saw the birth of the State of Israel.

And, while the Arab armies were preparing to invade the young refugee-country, the survivors of the Shoah were piling up in rickety boats. Meanwhile a few hundred thousand Arabs from Palestine were getting ready to flee their homes, convinced that they would return as winners and conquerors.

Soon - by a terrible twist of fate they, as well, began to fill up refugee camps and passed on their refugee status to new generations.

The Jews, however, did not receive refugee status.

They had just rediscovered the land of their birthright.

And if they came from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq or from Yemen, if they had lost everything, even their relatives and their cemeteries, they were ready to rebuild their lives in the West and for many - in Israel - and try to forget their past.

Without ever asking for compensation or the right of return, or even wishing that their story be told...

More:
http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm

[Jed Dilligan]

156. Maybe it's a misconception on his part, (Cossacks=Kazakhs)

but by your logic a modern, educated black American has no conceivable grievance against whites.

[LittleClarkie]

116. For one thing it's an Arabic-seeming character preying mostly on Republican types

Subtle political satire perhaps?

[upi402]

118. some Jews are funny as hell

is that racist? i get confused

His name was Borat at least, not Stan.

[last_texas_dem]

122. Well...

I don't believe it quite parallels "blackface", but what turned me off from seeing the movie, simply judging by the previews, is the way it seemed to be laughing about people living in poverty. I generally don't find that kind of humor funny, just depressing. Maybe I got a distorted perception about what the bulk of the movie is like based on seeing the previews, but that was the way it came across to me. Maybe I just don't "get" it the same way I don't "get" "South Park" ("get" in quotes because I don't think finding something unfunny necessarily entails that you truly don't get how it's attempting to be funny).

[CarbonDate]

124. Well, there's plenty of differences, obviously. All discussed above.

I do have issues with his Ali G character, though.

[On the Road]

125. I Believe Comedy Should Break Taboos

and deal with dangerous material. If appreciated with self-awareness, I believe even racist comedy can be enlightening.

Borat's satire of prejudiced Americans undercuts those prejudices by showing how ridiculous and offensive they look when paraded in public.

But it reinforces the prejudices against Muslims (Arabs, Persians, Turks, etc) and poor third world people. It does this because there is little awareness and understanding of these regions and peoples.

When Kazakh villagers are depicted as laughable rubes, there is no alarm that goes off in most American viewers' minds telling them that it is incorrect, and that it is immoral to ridicule it. This is the same type of "humor" that used to reinforce prejudices against American blacks. The laughter of the audience will reinforce the attitude that these prejudices are OK.

American viewers may come away from the movie with a sharpened awareness of anti-Semitism and misogyny, and how wrong it is to hold those prejudices. But they will also come away with reinforced stereotypes of destitute third-worlders and people from the middle east and central Asia.

----

Having said that, I think Borat can still be useful and enlightening. I plan to see it. I will applaud its political satire and deplore its racism. As the gay community says, silence is death. Anything that puts areas like Kazakhstan on the map and increases awareness can be good. And who knows -- maybe some people will get the whole message.

[Hippo_Tron]

129. So what about those of us who are enlightened enough to know that it isn't correct

Should we only make movies that make sure stupid people don't get the wrong idea?

[On the Road]

130. No, There is a Huge Difference

between Borat's satire of American prejudices and his ridicule of Kazakhs. I tried to make that clear as best I could.

People can make whatever movies they want. I'll see them even if they're flawed. I used to listen to Howard Stern before he went on Sirius. But Borat is no friend of the real Kazakhs.

[Hippo_Tron]

131. I haven't seen it yet so I'll make a full judgement when I do

But it really bothers me when people criticize a film or cartoon's portrayal of it when CLEARLY it is satire and the creator is making it to appeal to people who are smart enough to get satire.

My generation simply doesn't laugh at completely inofensive things like the coyotee falling off the cliff up or Dick Van Dyke tripping over the footrest. You have to push the limits to get us to laugh. I don't know why that is, but it's the way it works.

[On the Road]

133. Nothing in Your Post

indicates that you grasp the distinction between the satire on American prejudices and the mockery of third world villagers. There is an enormouse difference in portrayal and atttudes.

Maybe Kazakhs deserve it as anti-Semites, but they do not deserve it as poor villagers.

[Hippo_Tron]

134. Again I haven't seen the movie yet

But I would imagine that the portrayal of the Kazakhs in the way that he did was meant to be satirical.

[Hippo_Tron]

126. Because Borat assumes the audience is smart enough to understand SATIRE

[Alexander]

135. The "Kazakh language" Borat speaks is actually Hebrew.

Yet most people do not realize this at all, thinking it's really Kazakh or just nonsense.

The target is not Kazakhstan but the United States.

There is absolutely nothing in that movie denigrating Muslims, Arabs or Persians - in fact, none of the three are featured at any point in the movie.

And he doesn't really make fun of Kazakhstan, either. The Cyrillic type used to portray the "Kazakh language" doesn't make any sense whatsoever, for those of you who are familiar with the Cyrillic alphabet. The "Ministry" doesn't exist in Kazakhstan, not a single scene was filmed in Kazakhstan, and apart from Borat saying he's from Kazakhstan, nothing at all in the movie has anything to do with Kazakhstan. The daughter of the real-life President of Kazakhstan, Dariga Nazarbayeva, even sees the humor in Borat.

You can certainly be offended that Cohen is good at duping people, but for the most part the people he talks to hang themselves with their own rope.

Nobody made the frat kids talk shit about women, blacks and Jews.

Nobody made the churchgoing fundies speak in tongues and do a weird-ass ritual.

Nobody made the rodeo crowd cheer Borat on when he advocated "premier Bush" killing all Iraqis and drinking their blood.

I think the people most likely to be offended by this movie are the people most likely to stereotype.

[Shakespeare]

161. Not exactly-it's a pastiche of hebrew and polish n/t

[Alexander]

200. There's a bit of Yiddish in there, too. But that wasn't my point.

[Shakespeare]

201. Yes, and I happen to agree with you. n/t

[SoCalDem]

136. Ethnic comedy has been a staple for hundreds of years

If it's a person making "fun" of his OWN ethnicity, it's one thing.. If it's someone else making fun OF another group...well there's the rub

[Retrograde]

219. A lot of things used to be staples

As another poster pointed out, ethnic humor was once very acceptable, although it wasn't always the Real Thing: Chico Marx, son of Alsatian Jews, made his name playing stereotypical ignorant Italians. Polish jokes were acceptable on television until the 70s.

Back to the original post: I can see his (or her) point: it's disturbing to see someone adopt one's own identity in order to parody or ridicule it. As a woman, I can not see the difference between blackface and female impersonators: to me, they both carry an undercurrent of the imitation being somehow "better" than the original.

I haven't seen Borat yet, although I've heard good things about it and it doesn't seem to push any of my own hot buttons. If it did, well, sometimes I'm not as liberal as I think I am. OTOH, freedom of speech includes freedom to say what I don't like, as well as freedom to spent my money where I please.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

137. Blackface!? Pretty funny since "Borat" is actually a black English rapper

named Ali G who is wearing whiteface to play the Kazhishstahi "Borat" in the movie. Nice try.

[alcibiades_mystery]

152. Bzzzt: Ali G is a character too

As is Bruno, the gay fashion reporter.

Cohen himself is none of these characters.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

204. No, Cohen is one of the characters.

Have you seen the man's birth certificate?
I didn't think so. Are you going to next say
that Ememem is also not who he says who is?
Think about it.

[k_jerome]

154. you're kidding, right? nt.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

205. Do you know the man? I do. Like the back of my hand.

I have been around show biz types my whole entire
life, and they are always plying around, you never
know who they really are till you wake them up in the middle
of the night with something like good news about their
furniture. Try that with "Cohen" some time and see how
far it gets you. By the way, do you think the star of
Desperate Housewives would marry "Cohen", or Ali G?

[Goblinmonger]

182. Wow

just Wow! That's all I got. Wow.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

206. Youre welcome but the truth needs no thanks.

It just is.

[Goblinmonger]

209. Now I'm starting to wonder

if yours is just not some failed form of satire. Cause Cohen ain't black and he ain't a rapper. He plays one on TV. He also played a lemur king on an animated movie; does that make him a lemur?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

212. "does that make him a lemur?"

Now you being silly.

[NYCGirl]

213. Black or not?

BTW, he studied at Cambridge, like all good black rappers do.
;-)

http://imdb.com/name/nm0056187/bio

[A-Schwarzenegger]

214. Photoshooped, or not?

"BTW, he studied at Cambridge, like all good black rappers do."

I'm sure you mean that ironiacally.

[NYCGirl]

215. Could sing a chorus of the "Shoop Shoop Song", but that would only be

ironiacal.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

230. English dooesnt have enough voweels.

[jpgray]

248. You are enjoyed, sir

:patriot:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

251. Thanks, I was wondering.

:hi:

[Susang]

257. Don't.

:applause:

[Leopolds Ghost]

138. UM, Y'all DO know that Kazakhs are NOT Arabs or Persians?

Have little in common with Arabs or Persians and live in a country on the Russian steppe,

thousands of miles from the Middle East?

And that Islam is not a hugely important part of Kazakh daily life, no more than it is for Bosnians?

And that 40% of Kazakhs are Russian (or German-derived) christians
or agnostics?

No wonder Borat was able to play on people's geographical ignorance.

[sniffa]

143. this is over the top

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

i personaLLy find aLi g more offensive, since he's charicaturing white peopLe with no rhythm.

[bicentennial_baby]

146. respect. safe.

:spray:

:rofl:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. Wow...

I thought the movie was funny...

I also thought Ali G's character was hilarious when he asked Steve Nash what he does if his "plums" fall out of his shorts while he's playing basketball....

[FredScuttle]

or when he asked Buzz Aldrin when we're going to fly to the sun

Aldrin replied "It's a little too hot to fly to the sun", to which Ali G replied, "why don't you fly at night?"

Respeck.

[meisje]

148. It was so funny when I read how the villagers were exploited and about the lady at the news station

who booked borat lost her job. Hilarious! The nice old Jewish couple that runs the bed & breakfast, boy did they get what they deserved. LOL!

Anyone who finds this movie funny is a fucking moran! Sure I laughed at the cowboys and the idiot frat boys, they deserved it. However, many of the people in the movie were exploited and tricked and I find that offensive.

Oh and I get SATIRE, but people should not be harmed in the process.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

149. The Jewish Couple Came Off Good...

As did the driving instructor....


And even the woman at the dinner party who was patient with her weird guest...


Besides the villagers the people who came off badly usually were...

[Kelly Rupert]

155. The nice old Jewish couple "got what they deserved?"

What would that be? You mean they came off like the only decent people in the movie? They were sympathetic and kind, and Borat did them no harm. What harm came to them?

Yeah, the booker at the news station probably should have lost her job. She signed the waiver. If you book someone without investigating them, and they turn out to be fraudulent pranksters, then you can get fired, yeah.

And as for "anyone who finds the movie funny," that would be the overwhelming majority. Sorry. If you're too sensitive to see a movie, that's your fault, not Mr. Baron Cohen's.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

184. How About The Driving Instructor?

I thought he represented "real America" well...

And I thought the dinner party guests were patient with their weird visitor...

[Ian David]

187. The dinner guests were patient to a fault right up unitl...

he brought in an African-American prostitute.

Suddenly, dinner was over, and it was time for everyone to leave.

Now, it's likely that they did this because they objected to having a black person in their home.

But it's also possible that the scene was edited in such a way as to make it appear that the color of the woman's skin was their only objection to her.

For example, did Borat tell his hosts that the woman was a prostitute, but then leave that part "on the cutting room floor?"

Maybe.

That would be unfair.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

190. Of Course I Remember The Prostitute...

I thought it wasn't her color they objected to but the fact Borat invited a prostitute to their dinner party and her mode of dress...

If I'm invited to a dinner party I'm not inviting a prostitute to arrive after it begun, especially a scantily clad one...


I'm going to see it again...I'll watch it more closely....

Any way my favorite was the drivers ed instructor...

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MUSTANG_2004]

167. The hotel desk clerk's story about being in the movie

The desk clerk's story starts on the 2nd paragraph:

http://www.andrewtobias.com/newcolumns/061113.html

Here's the money line:
"It's not that I don't have a sense of humor; it's that I was deceived into participating in a film that I would never have agreed to appear in had I known the truth."

[Ian David]

170. I do have some misgivings about the way the movie exploited the villagers

Do you have a link to someplace where we can donate to help them?

I'd be happy to donate. Unless, of course, that village actually does have an annual "Running of The Jew" Festival.

My other concerns:

1) Did Pamela Anderson know what Borat was going to do, and willingly play along? If not, then I find the scene at the book signing to be very troubling. Although I suspect that it was staged with Ms. Anderson's permission.

2) Were there certified animal handlers on the set to make sure that the various animals-- chickens, oxen, a bears-- were not mistreated? I thought it irresponsible and cruel to unleash a live chicken upon unsuspecting people on a train-- any one of which might have hurt or killed it.

3) It appeared in the film that Borat exposed himself naked in public. They may have used various editing techniques to make it appear that he was naked, while he was actually in a thong. But I would object to naked people running amok in hotel lobbies.

In any case, the Jewish owners of the Bed and Breakfast seemed to have been treated well by Borat while they were on-camera. He never seemed to disrespect them to their faces. The Borat character reserved his comedic bits for while the couple was not there. Both Borat and the producers treated them very sympathetically.

[mondo joe]

180. How do you feel about the Daily Show exposing bigotry and more in

America?

[MUSTANG_2004]

228. A little different

The people going on the Daily Show know that they're going on a political talk show of some sort. The ones in "Borat" were lied to about what the film was (see my other message that links to the "Vanilla Face" hotel clerk who was told they were doing a documentary study showing famous hotels).

[Ian David]

185. The Village of Glod: Let's find a way to help them. Mr. Cohen should, too

These villagers shouldn't NEED to sue Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen should do the right thing and help them. And we should, too.

In particular, we need to find a way to buy Nicu Tudorache a new arm.

See:
<snip>
Disabled Nicu Tudorache said: This is disgusting. They conned us into doing all these things and never told us anything about what was going on. They made us look like primitives, like uncivilised savages. Now they,re making millions but have only paid us 15 lei .


<snip>

Mr Tudorache, a deeply religious grandfather who lost his arm in an accident, was one of those who feels most humiliated. For one scene, a rubber sex toy in the shape of a fist was attached to the stump of his missing arm - but he had no idea what it was.

Only when The Mail on Sunday visited him did he find out. He said he was ashamed, confessing that he only agreed to be filmed because he hoped to top up his £70-a-month salary - although in the end he was paid just £3.

He invited us into his humble home and brought out the best food and drink his family had. Visibly disturbed, he said shakily: 'Someone from the council said these Americans need a man with no arm for some scenes. I said yes but I never imagined the whole country, or even the whole world, will see me in the cinemas ridiculed in this way. This is disgusting.

More:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=415871&in_page_id=1770


See also:

<snip>

Villagers in Glod, Romanian for "mud," are threatening to sue the film's producers for paying them a pittance to stand in for a Kazahk village in the movie.

They say they are horrified and humiliated after learning the movie ridicules their abject poverty and simple ways.

The residents say filmmakers got them to put farm animals in their homes and perform other crude antics.

"We thought they came here to help us — not mock us," said Dana Luca, 40.

"We haven't got anything here. We haven't got running water. We can't even bathe," she said. "We are poor people, but we are still people."

More:
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/film/story/2006/11/15/borat-glod.html


More on Glod:

Almaşu Mare
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almaşu Mare (German: Groß-Almasch, Hungarian: Nagyalmás) is a commune located in Alba county, Romania

With a population of 1678 ( according to the 2002 census) the commune encomprises the villages of Almaşu Mare, Almaşu De Mjloc, Brădet, Cib, Cheile Cibului, Glod and Nădăştia. Its current mayor, as of 2006, is Aron Zaharie. A former mining centre for gold, its income comes now mainly from agricultural and agrotouristical activities.

Almaşu Mare's touristical objectives are the Cibu Gorges, the Glod Gorges, a thermal spring and the Achim Emilian ethnographical museum.

Localities in Alba County, Romania Coat of Arms of Alba Iulia

Municipalities: Alba Iulia | Aiud | Blaj | Sebeş

Towns: Abrud | Baia de Arieş | Câmpeni | Cugir | Ocna Mureş | Teiuş | Zlatna

Communes:

Albac | Almaşu Mare | Arieşeni | Avram Iancu | Berghin | Bistra | Blandiana | Bucium | Câlnic | Cenade | Cergău | Ceru-Băcăinţi | Cetatea de Baltă | Ciugud | Ciuruleasa | Crăciunelu de Jos | Cricău | Cut | Daia Română | Doştat | Fărău | Galda de Jos | Gârda de Sus | Gârbova | Hopârta | Horea | Ighiu | Întregalde | Jidvei | Livezile | Lupşa | Lopadea Nouă | Lunca Mureşului Meteş | Mihalţ | Mirăslău | Mogoş | Noşlac | Ocoliş | Ohaba | Pianu | Poiana Vadului | Ponor | Poşaga | Rădeşti | Râmeţ | Rimetea | Roşia de Secaş | Roşia Montană | Sălciua | Săliştea | Sâncel | Săsciori | Sântimbru | Scărişoara | Stremţ | Şibot | Sohodol | Şpring | Şugag | Şona | Unirea | Vadu Moţilor | Valea Lungă | Vidra | Vinţu de Jos

This Romanian location article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma%C5%9Fu_Mare

[julialnyc]

150. The movie is him showing us that we are guilty of what we try to change other nations into becoming

I think that we are supposed to know that Borat is an over-the-top caricature of a person, not a representative of his country.... the humor (and the brilliance of it) is that out freedom loving (and spreading) country have many people who share the exact same thoughts and wishes as a character that is supposed to be "one of them."

[bleedingheart]

151. Borat represents the stereotype of Eastern Europeans

that came to this country....

Here in Pittsburgh the term "dumb bohunk" or "dumb hunky" was used to describe the Eastern Europeans who came to this country to work in the steel mills. Ridiculed for their accents and "innocent ways"...they were abused for their physical labor in the steel mills and coal mines...and so ashamed they changed their names so that their children would be more "americanized"...

So in many ways I can see how the parallel with the "blackface" performances you describe.

[youthere]

158. LMAO..

that "BORAT" inspires one of the top threads in GD. I'm nominating this.

:bounce:

[fhqwhgads]

166. sbc is going to be interviewed as himself...

...in rolling stone, not as borat or any other character. i wonder if he'll be asked questions like the ones posed in this thread...i think he will. there's also an interview he did as himself on letterman some years ago, before the borat craze. he talked mostly about the ali g character (you can find it on youtube).

it's probably been mentioned before, but sacha baron cohen did his thesis on the role of jewish americans in the civil rights movement (focusing esp. on the murders of the three civil rights workers in mississippi).

anyway, the article might well be illuminating. for the record, i thought the movie was hilarious. but i understand why some folks might be a little concerned, and i'll be interested to read what baron cohen has to say.

[grizmaster]

171. He's a jew making fun of anti-semites

It's a satire that exposes bigotry, not a portrayal that perpetuates oppression.

As to it being a source of ongoing controversy- It wouldn't be so hard for Kazakhstan to defend against the image if it didn't hit so close to home.

As to being anti-muslim/arab/persian

Kazakhstan has only a minority muslim population, it's not an arab country, and only the very southern portion of the country once fell under Persian rule.

And I saw the movie and Borat's religion is never identified, though there were a few hints that the character is christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan

The majority of modern Kazakhstanis are currently either ethnic Kazakhs (58%-60%) or Russians (25%-27%), with smaller Ukrainian, Uzbek, German, Uyghur, Koreans and other minorities totalling 15-17%. Many minorities such as Tatars, Soviet Germans, Poles, Romanians, Ukrainians and regime-critical Russians, had been deported to Kazakhstan before and at the beginning of World War II, ordered by Stalin. One of the biggest Soviet labor camps existed in Kazakhstan. There is also a small but visible Jewish community. Before 1991, one million Volga Germans lived in Kazakhstan; much of this community emigrated to Germany following the breakup of the Soviet Union. The main religious groupings are Sunni Islam, Russian Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

[Jed Dilligan]

179. At one point, on the issue of religion

he does say something along the lines of "I am Kazakhi, I follow the Hawk."

[Ian David]

186. I think he was referring to this...

[grizmaster]

202. forgot about that line

found this rough quote about the scene



'Actually, in the film Borat addresses this very issue. When asked whether he is a Muslim he replies "No, I am from Kazakhstan, we follow the hawk."'

[Goblinmonger]

175. Mark Twain would kick your ass

if he were alive today. So would William S. Burroughs. It is satire for fuck's sake. Black face wan't satire. There was no biting commentary on society in black face. Watch the movie Bamboozled to see what happens when someone tries to use black face again as satire. The US doesn't get it and slips back to their old racism. Much like the people in Borat. Much like you with your post.

I bet you thought All in the Family was horribly racist. I bet you thought Swift really wanted to eat the poor Irish children. I bet you thought Huck Finn was a book about how great slavery and racism was.

on edit: I forgot--I bet you thought the hanging scene in Naked Lunch (on second thought, I'm sure you have never read that book) was just porn.

[Ian David]

199. Even Mark Twain needed to be corrected once in a while

It's interesting to note that over the years, Mark Twain's views about the Jews changed and evolved. Much of it was shaped by the world around him, and influenced by those who were willing to confront him head-on.

In any case, as much as Twain used his satire to expose and fight bigotry, he still needed people to confront him about his own.

The moral of this story: I am glad that we're having a reasonable conversation about the Borat controversy. And I'm sure that Mr. Cohen is, too. It's what he had in mind.

But we should also not put him up on a pedestal and hold him as being unimpeachable in his satire-- as noble as it may be.

I loved the movie. I think it's an important movie. Although I do have some problems with his methods, which I think should be addressed.

If you think Mr. Cohen needs to be corrected, then speak-out and tell him so.

Email [email protected] or contact the official Borat people at the My Space site http://www.myspace.com/borat

Even Mark Twain needed that once in a while.

See:



Mark Twain and The Jews

Mark Twain, considered America’s greatest writer, was far more than a humorist. After the Civil War, he served as America’s conscience on ethnic and racial issues. Twain defended Jews, African-Americans and Indians against prejudice. While a majority of his contemporaries negatively stereotyped the Jewish people, Twain defended Jewry in word and deed. Ironically, his major published protest against anti-Semitism alienated some of the American Jews he tried to defend.

In his youth, Twain held the same negative stereotypes of Jews that his neighbors embraced – that they were all acquisitive, cowardly and clannish. Hannibal, Missouri, his hometown, had only one Jewish family, the Levys, and Twain joined in hazing the young Levy sons. In 1857, Twain wrote a humorous but uncomplimentary newspaper article about Jewish coal dealers for a Keokuk, Iowa newspaper.

Twain seems to have had a change of heart about Jews around the time of the Civil War. He confided to his daughter Suzy that "the Jews seemed to him a race to be much respected . . . they had suffered much, and had been greatly persecuted, so to ridicule or make fun of them seemed to be like attacking a man when he was already down. And of course that fact took away whatever was funny in the ridicule of a Jew.

<snip>

Twain took the criticism to heart. In 1904, he wrote a postscript to his essay titled "The Jew as Soldier," conceding that Jews had indeed fought in the Revolution, the War of 1812 and the Mexican War in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. This meant that "the Jew’s patriotism was not merely level with the Christian’s but overpassed it." Twain did not respond to Levy’s charges about Jews in the economy, but he never again raised this stereotype in print.

When Twain died in 1910, the American Jewish press mourned. His obituaries in that press often reprinted the words of the president of New York’s Hebrew Technical School for Girls: "In one of Mr. Clemens’s works he expressed his opinion of men, saying he had no choice between Hebrew and Gentile, black men or white; to him, all men were alike."

More:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/twain.html

[Rockstone]

240. So you want SBC to say whatever he wants about anyone

trick people, humiliate and degrade them, but I'm a racist for pointing out his insensitivity towards the people whose country we invaded and who we literally blow up their weddings?

[fujiyama]

249. Kazakhstan was invaded?

Bush invaded Kazakhstan? And I thought I kept up with the news.

[noonwitch]

181. I would put the act more on the level of "Hitler on Ice" and "Jews in Space"

Mel Brooks is a jew who makes fun of jewishness in his movies. He also makes fun of cowboy movies, horror movies, germans, americans, Star Wars, and just about everything else in our culture.

[Ian David]

194. See also: The Hebrew Hammer

The Story "The Hebrew Hammer," is an action-comedy written and directed by 28-year-old Jonathan Kesselman. The film stars Adam Goldberg in the title role, with Judy Greer, Andy Dick, Mario Van Peebles, Peter Coyote and Nora Dunn starring in supporting roles.

By creating "The Hebrew Hammer," Kesselman has brought to life a character rarely seen in Hollywood or off-Hollywood films: a sexy and powerful Jewish action hero.

Just as such indelible films as Melvin Van Peebles' "Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song" and Gordon Parks' "Shaft" were reactions to Hollywood's inability or unwillingness to portray strong, sexy Black characters in the early 70s, Kesselman's "Hammer" is his way of creating a new hero for a new generation.

Like any exploitation film, "The Hebrew Hammer" pitches stereotypes like flaming fastballs at a knowing audience. But it would be wrong to say that Kesselman, by creating a "Shaft" with peyos, is satirizing the Blaxploitation genre. Instead, Kesselman is honoring the genre, proud that he, too has made a picture with a built-in audience in mind.

Written and directed by Jonathan Kesselman, "The Hebrew Hammer" was shot on 33 New York City locations in 22 days in the spring of 2002. Kesselman's brother, Josh Kesselman of Jericho Entertainment, produced the film with R&BFM's Lisa Fragner and ContentFilm's Sofia Sondervan. ContentFilm's Edward R. Pressman and John Schmidt are executive producers

More:
http://www.thehebrewhammer.com/about.asp


See also:

Adam Goldberg's interview with Jon Stewart

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.jhtml?reposid=/multimedia/tds/celeb/celeb_8065.html&setplayer=real_media


Movie Trailer:
http://www.thehebrewhammer.com/trailer.asp

[Marnieworld]

188. Blackface made black people the joke

Borat aims to reveal things about the people he is dealing with. It's a tool to reveal their ignorance and predjudice and complete lack of experience with dealing with anyone different than themselves. He's not the joke- they are.

[tlsmith1963]

191. This Just Shows...

...that Americans don't understand satire. Borat is like a lot of British humor. They are very good at vicious satire. Over here, we are afraid of doing that kind of stuff because we fear that we will offend someone. I think that SBC was trying to expose American bigotry. I haven't seen Borat yet, but I want to.

[Ian David]

197. A couple interesting reviews of Borat

Crass Clown
Borat’s humour — and hubris — is nothing short of devastating
By Katrina Onstad
November 3, 2006

<snip>

I love this movie.

Borat is a film about how foreigners see westerners — promiscuous, greedy, materialist hypocrites — and how the West sees foreigners: horny, incomprehensible, primitive curiosities. And so it is a film about how everybody is wrong, but also how much there is to laugh at in the cutting shards of truth that create those stereotypes. All of which accounts for just how hard it is to watch.

There has been a good deal of envelope pushing in the past gross-out decade with movies like American Pie and Jackass, but diarrhea is easy. Showing just how close to the surface prejudice lies — Q: How many beers before a trailer of South Carolina frat boys start mourning the end of slavery? A: Less than you think — is truly radical, and maybe even inflammatory. Baron Cohen is Jewish, and his anti-Semitic jokes make his most ruthless material. In the Kazakh “Running of the Jew” ritual, citizens chase a giant Jewish puppet through village streets, smashing “Mrs. Jew’s egg” with bats. The grotesque puppet is like a living Nazi propaganda cartoon and Borat proudly guides the viewer through the delights of this national tradition with the joy of a little boy showing Grandma his Christmas presents. A few critics have grumbled that Baron Cohen’s scattershot approach wimpishly misses the Muslim community, but the anti-Semitic gags actually speak volumes about Muslim-Jewish relations; the film feels more topical, and braver, than Death of a President. An added wink: as Borat so casually and cheerfully spews his anti-Semitism (the assumption that everyone is on side is a truth of racism), Baron Cohen is actually speaking a combination of Hebrew and gibberish.

Borat invents a new kind of comedy rhythm, stretching the beats into distressing infinity, but the film still feels carefully hewn. On Da Ali G Show, the Borat character is purely reprehensible; on film, he is almost likeable — almost. The big joke of Borat is that the noble savage foreigner can actually be a pig. But in that idea resides a plea — or maybe more of a murmur — for some new kind of understanding of the immigrant as a full-fledged person, one who might even be capable of great ugliness. The outsider isn’t who you think he is, neither a virtuous exotic nor a stinky Other. It can’t be an accident that those who come off best in Borat are a gang of African-American young men in the projects who teach Borat how to wear his underwear above the belt, and a kindly Jewish couple who make a late-night offering of sandwiches (which Borat assumes are poisoned). More vicious and more ridiculed are the Southern socialites who live on Secession Row — really — and literally storm out when Borat invites a black prostitute to dinner; it doesn’t take a magnifying glass to read that subtext.

The question, of course, is whether or not the Borat movie simply affirms anti-woman-Jew-gay-whatever attitudes or if it flushes them out to vanquish them. That’s a tough question, but one that isn’t served by pulling the film from many of the theatres where it was set to play, which is what Fox suddenly did a few weeks ago. Borat expects a lot of the audience, but in a film overrun with fools, those who don’t even listen to the joke are the biggest fools of all.

More:
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/film/borat.html



See also:

Behind its blue jokes, 'Borat' has a lesson

<snip>

It was clear that the people featured in the film didn't realize that this wasn't an actual documentary. "Borat" invokes some of our country's most vicious societal demons -- racism, sexism and jingoism -- and ridicules them. And us.

I don't know this for certain, but it sure seems as though the film intends to educate, to shame us into better behavior by spotlighting attitudes we'd rather keep secret.

One radio commentator has termed Cohen's work "investigative comedy."

Sounds about right to me. In 84 minutes, Cohen manages to cut into just about everyone.

<snip>

The multi-layered Cohen leaves you peeling away these comedic layers of his film long after it ends.

For instance, are people laughing at Borat's ugly perspectives because they consider the references so outrageous that they're funny? Because they harbor similar views? Or because they're too polite or too lazy to set him straight?

It's difficult to know whom Cohen's aiming at.

I mean, here we are laughing at the "dumb foreigner," when the jokes may really be on us.

Whether he intends to or not, Cohen is teaching us a lesson: Sometimes you have to feel dumb before you can learn.

More:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/columnists/mark_mccormick/16013701.htm

[VOX]

203. Borat is the satiric naif who holds up a mirror to the rest of of the world...

He holds up a mirror to the world, and its reflection is caustic and revelatory -- and we react with shock at what we see.

Borat, for all his crudeness and naivete, is something of an innocent wandering abroad who has the power to cut to the darkest parts of other cultures.

The genius of Borat is, as he goes about his business, he sort of disappears as his targets take the center of attention.

Borat is anything but a minstrel or a shuffle-and-shuck stereotype -- he has great power, and he uses that as an engine to puncture and expose the brute, the heartless, and the inhuman.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

208. When you "expose the brute, the heartless, and the inhuman"

there's sometimes a little danger of becoming what you expose.

[LaPera]

217. So let's not expose it...and just keep it hidden...instead of

it being full blown - showing the ignorant, the bigots, the useless drunken idiots, the arrogant pompous elitist piles of shit...I prefer it putting it out there for all to see, right back at the aforementioned their fucking smug stupid faces.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

229. One of the basic wisdoms.

I didnt say dont expose it. I said
there is a danger in exposing it, in fighting
it, that you can become what you expose, what you
fight, a danger that is certainly worth it.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelly Rupert]

222. You're kidding, right?

[Jed Dilligan]

225. Afraid he isn't

I've encountered his "opinions" on other matters.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

231. As if you'd know when I'm serious.

No idea who you are, except that I made a bigger impression
on you than you did on me.

[Jed Dilligan]

234. Making an impression

isn't always a good thing. I'll leave it at that.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

237. Well, keep trying. Peace.

[Jed Dilligan]

238. Is that the best you can do?

:rofl:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

242. Seriously, I have no idea who you are. Sorry.

But what better can I do than bring you rollicking laughter!

[Jed Dilligan]

243. My recollection is,

I was saying I thought the way DUI laws were written gave too much power to the individual officer, and YOU responded by repeatedly accusing me of drunk driving. I don't think there's any way I can ever forgive you for that behavior, which epitomizes everything wrong with anonymous internet discourse.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

245. That's much better & clearer. Thank you.

Please direct me to the thread & if I wronged you,
I will apologize just like that. Or if you don't have
it handy, tell me & I'll look it up myself.

[Jed Dilligan]

246. It was about a year ago,

I have a very long memory when it comes to false accusations from advocates of draconian law enforcement.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

247. This one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5628854

Part of our exchange was deleted. On what is left ...
First, in my halting defense... I was being facetious & never directly accused you of drunk driving. I thought you were arguing against drunk driving laws and/or field sobriety tests, and yes, I'm in favor of both, but dont think that qualifies me as an "advocate of draconian law enforcement." HOWEVER,..........
I will own that I was trying to get your goat by implying that you had had DUIs, and I was very wrong in doing that, and I sincerely apologize for that. I can see it hurt you and angered you and for that I am sorry, too.
And I honestly thank you again for telling me what was on your mind, because I did not remember. I agree that the kind of thing I did is an example of the bad part of the internet (anonymous & really cowardly charges), and I am working on reducing my role in that, and still obviously have a ways to go.

[Jed Dilligan]

250. Apology accepted.

I admit that I am pretty touchy around law enforcement advocates in general. I have a lot of firsthand experience of police abuse that you probably don't, assuming you were never homeless.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

253. Thanks, Jed. Peace.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

232. About what, Kelly?

[Burma Jones]

207. For starters, we enslaved, slaughtered and degraded Africans for Generations

I think SBC used Borat mostly because of his own facial features. And the big target isn't Kazakhs, it's Westerners.....

[brentspeak]

223. I sure didn't.

I hope you didn't, either.

[Kelly Rupert]

226. Hey, everyone did. It was the 'in' thing back in the late '90s, remember?

Man, I remember coming home from high school, watching "Who Wants to be a Millionaire," kickin' back with a bit of exploitation, and then taking my ill-gotten profits and investing them in the invincible tech market. Lemme tell ya, those were the days.

[Burma Jones]

258. Editorial "we"

Would you have preferred "Certain of this Nation's Northern European Ancestry and then, not all, but some of the subsequent waves of Eastern European, Italian and Irish immigrants"?

[civildisoBDence]

216. Check out a book called "Love and Theft" by Eric Lott

He suggests that there was some degree of admiration and envy involved in white performers using blackface.

One major difference between blackface and Borat is that almost no one who sees the movie has any actual contact with gypsies or Azbeks, nor any real opportunity to discriminate. The caricature is a kind of simulacrum, a sort of parody of something that doesn't exist.

Newsprism

[WinkyDink]

227. I thought he was Colberting us, with an accent. I.e., makes us laugh

when we SHOULD NOT, because we're laughing at ourselves. But dang, he's hilarious!

Good thing he didn't suggest eating Irish babies. Hee.

[Rockstone]

241. If you like Borat, you'll find this hysterical!

A car commercial proclaiming a jihad on the U.S. auto market and offering “Fatwa Fridays” with free swords for the kids is offensive and should not be aired, Muslim leaders said on Sunday.

The radio advertisement for the Dennis Mitsubishi car dealership in Columbus, Ohio, has “a whole jihad theme,” said Adnan Mirza, director of the Columbus office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

“They are planning on launching a jihad on the automotive market and their representatives would be wearing burqas … ,” Mirza said. “They mentioned the pope in there and also about giving rubber swords out to the kiddies — really just reprehensible-type comments.”

Details of the radio ad, which has not yet been broadcast, have been reported in the local media, but officials at the dealership declined to comment about the content of the radio spot.

Deluge of calls
Two employees at the dealership said they had been deluged with calls about the commercial.

“The ad has has never been released, it is not out for public listening,” said one employee who declined to give his name. He would not say whether the dealership had changed its mind about airing the commercial.

Tokyo-based Mitsubishi Motors Corp. could not immediately be reached for comment.
Mirza said several local radio stations had already rejected the ad and he hoped the controversy would convince the dealership to rethink its sales strategy.

He also said the Council on American-Islamic Relations would likely contact the dealer to “offer some kind of cultural or sensitivity awareness training.”



hilarious right? those Muslim leaders are wrong for being offended, it's their fault that they just don't get the joke. They are racist because they don't get it. I guess that is what Borat really proves, that people who claim to be offended by degredation, humiliation and abuse against them are really the ones who are racist.

[fujiyama]

252. You do realize

that many people don't even know Kazakhstan is a real country right?

The likely reason Cohen chose the nation in the first place was because it is relatively obscure. His over the top antics should make it obvious to anyone of nominal intelligence that he doesn't reflect the actual nation of Kazakhstan in any way. And at no point does Cohen ever target Muslims or Arabs. In fact at one point, he goes to a rodeo where there's an extremely racist and homophobic guy that tells him to shave his mustache so he doesn't look like an Arab and instead might be able to pass off as an "I-talian" The same guy tells Borat not to kiss guys, because people will think he's gay. Borat replies that in his country they hang gays, to which the lunatic says "we're trying to do that over here too".

As you can see the whole point is to get people to expose their own racism, antisemitism, homophobia, and misogyny. Borat does the same with a gun shop owner ("What's the best gun to shoot a Jew with", to which the guy casually replies, "A 9mm". The frat boys scene is the best example, where the drunken frat brothers spew out all sorts of racism and misoginistic bullshit.

If you want to bitch about it, go see it first. Then come back and complain. It's not everyone's brand of humor, but humor is always subjective. A lot of it is crude and low brow, but it's amazing what people will reveal to a stranger, in terms of prejudices they harbor.

[upi402]

254. ala Archiue Bunker?

All In the Family exposed the true ignorance and folley of racism to average Americans.

[Arkana]

255. Look, he's funny.

He's harmlessly offensive. People need to grow some thicker skin, if you ask me.

*dons flame-proof underwear*

[Limelight]

263. When I toured the civil rights museum...

In Birmingham, AL it was an eye opening experience as a young black man. I certainly knew the history of the country, but the true level to which bigotry was institutionalized in this country never occured to me until I walked through the section that featured some of the overtly racist advertisments of the day. The most shocking to me was one that was a Lifesavers ad (as in the candy) that was basically a black background, a pair of with gloves and 3 white lifesavers (which made the most impression as I've always known them to be multicolored candies) 2 for the eyes and one for the mouth (it may have actually been several white lifesavers making up the mouth of a smiley face, but as I remember it it was only 3. The intent was the same however). An obvious play of blackface performers.

It stopped me in my tracks because Lifesavers was a pretty major brand name that just about everyone would know. I thought to myself if anyone ever thought of producing that kind of ad today, one so completely blatant, they'd have every civil rights organization and half the country crawl so far up their ass they'd know what the execs in the company had for lunch.

I'm not going to argue what the effects/legacy of blackface as a performance art is. It was ugly and outright bigoted and just plain silly that a black man or woman couldn't step in front of some audience without being washed out by the make because his true self was just to threatening or distasteful too a white audience. Even though... Hey Amos & Andy the most famous of black face performers (no it wasn't just on the radio) made more money than the president at the time doing what they did. The thing is blackface wasnt' the root of the problem, it was one of the effects. Lifesavers could get away with an ad and blackface was so popular not because it made them racist, but because they already felt superior to the group of people that were being made fun of.

How does that relate to Borat? Easy. You've got all these people that are featured in the movie trying to sue now cuz he's just so mean and lied to them and all that. Bullshit. These people bought the act. Why did they by the act? Cuz he came in with his funny accent and the goofy hair and mustache claiming to be from some backwater nation where you have sex with your sister, hate jews, rape every woman and have goats living in your house and they felt one thing.... Superior.

He was just this helpless man who was so terribly ignorant that needed to be taught how to think and act right, ie, be taught to think and act like an American. And all that time they were feeling so smug about it, they missed the obvious question... If he's so silly and ignorant and in need of someone to teach him or marvelous ways........ How the hell did he get (more or less) a quarter million dollars of video, audio and lighting equipment following him around everywhere he goes?! How dumb do you have to be not to realize after about 30 seconds that it's a damn joke?!

C'mon! :rofl:

Those people are only pissed off because instead of him coming off looking like an idiot as they suspected, it turned out to be them that looked stupid. And they only thought that cuz he told them he was from some country they'd never heard of and talked in half broken English. They got suckered cuz they thought poor little him. That just cuz the was from Kazakhstan aka The Ali G show he'd be too stupid to know the way the rest of the world worked.

Whatever, this is no different than any hidden camera/prank show that's ever been on the air in concept. And I know Kazakhstan doesn't like the character cuz they believe it instills stereotypes about people of their country, but in truth... If you trust Borat for your information on Kazakhstan you're an idiot any damn way.

[Jed Dilligan]

264. Hey Limelight

:yourock:

Welcome to DU.

[Limelight]

265. Much appreciated

:D