Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

So what have we learned about illegal immigration?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 07:13 PM
Original message
So what have we learned about illegal immigration?
I thought going into this that a strong stance against it would be a good thing in an election. Notice how most of the 'most balls to the wall' anti-illegal immigration people went down like JD Hayworth and others. I think this is because of the other positions that go along with this on the Republican side, like "stay the Course" and "screw the poor, let's subsidize oil companies" vastly out-weighed that stance. I think Illegal immigration fizzled as a campaign issue because most republicans were in favor of amnesty even if they wanted to call it something else and people are on to this fact. Most democrats didn't take a strong stand one way or another. Thus there was no difference between the parties and individual candidate's opinions were generally not considered in light of all the vanilla legislation being tossed around Congress and likely to be passed (if anything is passed) on this subject. My conclusions is, this was relegated to a third rate issue in this election because people don't believe anything significant will be done. opinions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think it is a very complicated issue
and hard to nail down talking points, which are more suitable for campaigns. We had this debate 6 months ago and nothing came of it. It has become a hot potato issue because there are no easy answers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasthorseman Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Glad you asked
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. yeah, that's about how I feel about it
It's just an extension of globalization and the race to the bottom in wages. Export our manufacturing jobs to get to the cheep labor, import the cheep labor to fill services jobs here at home. When will this madness stop?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stansnark Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. we've learned
that there are as many Cheap Labor Democrats as Republicans
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. And just as many racist, xenophobic democrats as republicans
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasthorseman Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Plus the magical
subliminal advertizing of Accountemps
Mr. Fernwell and BOB the accountemps temporary we brought in to replace you!
Your 29 years of dedication to a company means nothing to us!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. those people were raping me for 2 years
you can be fired for no reason what-so-ever on a moment's notice and they never hire you on. Why would they? They'd just have to pay you more. Don't get me started on temp agencies. I freaking hate those damn people. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's not a big problem
We have other much more serious problems.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. I believe if they REALLY go after employers, that'll fix it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. me too n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Posted by: pat_k

Illegal Immigration

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values.

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
Going after predatory employers.
Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.

Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).

Criminalize predatory employment practices.

Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.
Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.

Increase resources and create special units as required
Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.”

Making implicit costs explicit

“The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)”

Radically changing the rules of the game

“If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.”

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

“There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.”

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

“Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.”

Posted by: pat_k
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. We're big suckers in the world's view
Other countries I've been to don't let people just sneak in and take jobs from citizens. No way. Many many many countries don't let foreigners work even if they have a visa. And they sure as hell don't make citizens pay for the care of a cheap labor source for corporations.

We are definitely bent over on this in more ways than one. This is why I dropped out from being active in my precinct as a DCCM. Naive people with good hearts unwilling to listen to how the world works.

Cheap labor is in-sourcing. And we subsidize it. And sacrifice jobs.
It's a BS claim that nobody would do the jobs. They sure as hell would for fair pay. Actually Americans still do those jobs if you get out there. But now they get much less money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. the continued presence of 12 million illegals illustrates the profound contempt...
... that our elites -- political, corporate, and academic -- have for the rest of us.

They've never seen an American worker that they didn't want replaced with someone else from somewhere else. They've never seen a wage that they didn't want halved. They've never seen a union that they didn't want busted.

If I didn't know better, I'd think they hated us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. well, we're almost dead -American middle class workers
They better be careful what they ask for. We are not weak, just civilized and very very busy.

I don't ever take anything out on Mexicans, it's the corporations and the politicians they own. The DINO's infuriate me especially. They prevent us from having representation a either party. We have to hold their feet to the fire now or it may be too late.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. A-men brother
Illegal immigrants get into lots of jobs that Americans would like to have, not just crap jobs. We often get accused of racism for wanting to uphold our laws but going around saying Mexican immigrants are only good for picking lettuce - THAT'S what's racist!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. They are doing formerly middle class jobs, ie;
construction - many trades not just framing, factory, food processing, landscaping, etc...

and racism extends to Asia where those workers could kick our ass THEN eat our lunch. I've seen it many times in person. They slack when they get pennies an hour and it's 100 degrees of HOT out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoDemoCratCrat Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
16. I think you're mistaken
JD Hayworth didn't lose because of his stance on illegal immigration. In fact, his position on that is popular in his district. He was defeated because both he and his opponent (Mitchell) went very heavily into negative campaigning (which obscured their stands on issues) and Mitchell was able to associate Hayworth with Jack Abramoff.

There were four referenda on the ballot in Arizona that had to do with illegal immigration. Statewide, each of those issues went against illegals by 3:1 It's very important here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Hi DemoDemoCratCrat!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-13-06 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I think what I basically said was
he got beat, IN SPITE of his stance on that issue because it was overshadowed by Iraq war and other things. I couldn't speak to specifics of that race.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 18th 2024, 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC