Here's how you "fix" the immigration "problem"..

[SoCalDem]

Have every business pay a "school fee" for each employee.. Say $10K,, The plan would be promoted as a way to pay for overcrowded schools, due to undocumented hiring.

the money would be set aside in a special UNBORROWABLE fund to pay for school & hospital expenses

Offer the employers a waiver if they can PROVE that their employees are legal, and offer them a "bounty" if they report other employers who are still hiring undocumented workers..

I don't know of too many small businesses that would be willing to pay $10K per employee to save a few bucks an hour :)

[pooja]

1. Its not even a matter of saving a few bucks... its about finding

workers to do the job in the first place. We are actually hiring for housekeeping and can barely find anyone to do the job... and they aren't started at min wage either.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

14. what's the pay, and what is the state?

Sometimes min. wage jobs are better than one that pays 1-2 dollars more an hour. Min-wage, food stamps, medical, utility assistance all equal more than something $2 over min. wage.

One of the punishments for working hard and moving up, I guess. :shrug:

[piedmont]

16. Supply & demand

Apparently, whatever you're paying is below the wage needed to get a legal worker to do the job. If you increase the advertised wage enough, you'll get workers.

[Greyhound]

29. Sorry, but I don't believe you. You are in Florida and there is an

abundance of unemployed people that are qualified to be house keepers. I can only surmise that you are either not advertising the openings in the right place (have you listed with DES, or whatever FL calls it?), or you are just not offering enough to justify the work.

The system requires that pay keeps up with the cost of living. My very quick, and likely inaccurate, calculations are that it takes at least $18 - $20 p/hr, full-time to live in the city. Just guessing here, but I'll bet you're offering $8, and In-n-Out starts at $9.25.

[pooja]

32. There may be people unemployed, but not all are qualified.

Hotel workers (which i am one of) are where we are headed in America. Low pay, no benefits, expendable, no lunch, 8hrs straight.... This is a servitude class system to cater to the elite. The whole hospitality idustry is a complete sham. The same giant company will own the online travel agency, the car you rent, the hotels you eat at, the hotel which you lay your head in. If you book a rate on-line through Orbitz for say 59.95, the hotel makes 47.96. 5% then goes to franchise fee so now we are down to 45.56. Oh and because orbitz is a "travel agent its 10% commisionable. So now the incoming total is 40.74. Now the guest uses electricity, towels, sheets, products, eats free continental breakfast (imagine family of 4 on avg). The amount made after paying employees and paying out overhead costs leaves you with maybe $5.00 to call your own. So do America a favor, stop booking hotels online. They will give you a better rate than the online price most of the time because the hotel will make more profit.

[Greyhound]

33. No argument here. Corporate consolidation is a root cause of most,

if not all of our problems. From Health-care to illegal immigration to education, look into it and you will find some huge corporate looter causing, or blocking the solution to, it.

If things are as tough as you say, how many hotel chains are adopting Southwest Airline's solution, that being, just not participating in the system?

Edit to add illegal.

[pooja]

35. Its hard... How many non-brand hotels do you stay in... What are

you getting when you get there.... People have been hood-winked by the promise value and the customer is always right.. (customer is not always right)

[Greyhound]

38. I remember when Motel 6 started, before it was bought by a giant

corporation, they came from nowhere to number one in their field by simply offering comparable service without the prices by taking less profit, a mortal sin in todays corporate groupthink.

The sad truth is that it isn't really hard at all, little guys can always outperform the big guys, simply because the big guys have huge, non-performing, overhead at the corporate offices. Typically this adds between 25% and 50% to the costs of everything they do. So how much more could your hotel pay the housekeepers if they could save even 25% right off the top of the operating budget?

Edit: Forgot to answer your other question, since the country went insane, I don't travel anymore. In my former life I was usually booked into Hyatt or Westin, as I like(d) their service philosophy. Again, these are two companies that got to the top of the game by out-thinking and out-performing the big guys, once they got there, however, they became the companies they beat.

[SoCalDem]

44. AMEN.. I always make that long distance call and book directly

the people are friendlier and you can ask for a preferred location too (near an elevator..pool, etc)
I HATE those online services :puke:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. So...

What's your solution?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ogsball]

8. Throw out, fire, boot, the idiots who are currently running the INS

or Homeland Security or whatever agency it is now and fix the immigration situation. Pass a reasonable minimum wage, do a quick background check of people coming across the border, give them a temporary SSN, let 'em get a job, maybe put a small migrant worker tax on their salary and let everyone who can get a job work.

When people say the system is broken they mean it is broken. If you are an average Mexican sitting across the border, it will cost you about $8,000 and about at least year to get a work visa with an application for a resident card. That's a broken system.

I guess first we have to talk like adults, get over our fear of people speaking other languages around us and understand the every place isn't rural Alabama before that can happen.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

13. How does it differ from immigration in the past, exactly?

Even accepting the "problems" you've laid out, we've been dealing with issues of cultural and linguistic assimilation for the last 150+ years. And we've survived and prospered.

[NNN0LHI]

3. I like the 20 foot high fence idea better

I have a brand new patent on a dandy lightweight and durable 21 foot tall ladder.

Don

[Ian David]

5. I can't wait for the day when...

Gorbachev stands at the fence and says, "Mister Bush... tear down this wall!"

TimesDispatch.com | Gorbachev faults U.S. on border fence, Iraq
http://www.timesdispatch.com/.../MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149191235244

[Cleita]

18. I was watching Louis Black tonight.

He had the best take on the fence. He said the idiots want to build a fence along the border that is the equivalent of building one from Chicago to Washington, D. C.. Then he said Congress would spend five years debating what color it should be painted before it was ever built.

[Stardust]

21. LOL! I was gonna respond to your post with a ladder, then I read the rest.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. I like it

Great idea!

[The Deacon]

10. Okay...I Admit It...

My family immigrated here illegally...in 1682...so what's the Statute of Limitations, anyway?

[ret5hd]

11. What color were they?

[mikelewis]

12. Why not just invest in the economy of Mexico?

If you raise the standard of living in Mexico, you alleviate the desire for the people of Mexico to flee to greener pastures. There are a lot of different ways to do this that 1) don't cost (both in cash and moral value) as much as throwing millions of these people in jail or fencing our country in and 2) will actually provide a boost to both our countries economies. Our Free Trade Agreements are a ridiculous joke that only serve to keep the people of Mexico in poverty and the wealthy in power... if we adopted Fair Trade policies and set the conditions on how we trade with Mexico in a more humane and realistic tone, the Mexican people wouldn't have a reason to leave their own country. It's not like Mexicans hate Mexico, they are only offered a choice between becoming an "illegal" or watching their families wallow in abject poverty. Not much of a choice if you ask me. You can build a fence as tall as the sky and pass legislation that merely places a band-aid on a gaping wound all you like but it won't even come close to fixing the problem. The problem is that the economic disparity drives them here and forces them to break the law... fix that and you fix the problem. However, if you fix that, we'd then have to solve our slave labor problem and who wants to do that? My God, could you imagine actually having to pay someone a living wage for doing back breaking menial labor? Perish the thought...

[piedmont]

15. how high would the Mexican standard of living have to go?

I guess it would have to be high enough that the potential increase in one's quality of life isn't worth the risks+costs of emigrating. But how high would that be, I wonder?

[mikelewis]

19. Compared to what it is now... a lot higher.

However, it's not like they don't have the resources or the will. They just need the opportunity... they want jobs, food, health-care, education... same as us. If their farmers weren't put out of work by our slashing the costs of food prices and our investment in mega-farms... if the U.S. factories weren't cutting costs by cutting wages and offering no benefits... if our government wasn't actively manipulating their economy to suit the best interest of U.S. business's... maybe we wouldn't have the problems we are having.

However, the land has been bought up by large multinational land holding companies, the natural resources have been sold out to large investment firms and the government of Mexico has offered up their country to the highest bidder... this bleak picture drives people away from Mexico because no one can afford to live there; they can't afford to even rent their own land, they can't afford the food they grow and they can't afford the health-care to stay alive. The rich have destroyed any hope the poor and now even the middle class Mexican people have of ever being able to survive in that country.

I don't know the monetary figure but my guess is that if we just quit raking them over the coals and paid them what their labor, land and resources were worth, many of the problems we have here and the problems they have there would dissolve. The Mexican people want hope for a future and are willing to work like dogs to get it. Whether they do that here or in their own country is irrelevant to them. Mexico is not a poor country without assets, it is a fairly resourceful country that is currently blighted with greedy bastards willing to do anything to become richer and more powerful.

Also,if you want to see what America is going to be like in 10 to 15 years, look to the south... Mexico's present is the future of America. The same policies and people that are ruining Mexico are doing the same things to this country, the process has been a bit slower here but we are definitely on the same track. I don't know how we're going to be able to stop this without some sort of drastic economic revolution and my hope is that it will be non-violent and hopefully the integrity of our country will survive it but history has shown that this is probably not going to be the case. The type of economic shift necessary to fix these problems usually results in catastrophic loss of life and horrible atrocities but the rich are more than willing to pay that price. It's just the cost of doing business.

[rman]

24. So high that it includes basic necessities

such as food, healthcare, education, fair workers rights, environmental protection.
Nothing special really.

[SoCalDem]

22. in theory we have always done that, BUT on the way to the peasants

and poor folks, the money makes a gigantic detour through the pockets of the elites who "administer" the money..

In other words, the trickle-down is a drop in the bucket.

[mikelewis]

27. That's true... but if we make our aide conditional upon economic reform...

...you'd see a dramatic change in the way the money was administered. The Mexican Government relies on U.S. money to survive and they can be persuaded to do just about anything we want them to do. They are not necessarily "puppets" but they can be influenced quite easily. If we took a hardline approach to the way we fund our neighbors and demanded that they either treat their people fairly or look for a new trading partner, they would have no choice but to at least normalize the economic conditions and alleviate some of the problems that drive Mexicans across the border.

The main reason we don't do this is because "we" prefer the greed-driven control of unbridled capitalism over that of a more diversified economic agenda. We give the elites money and preference because they are a bulwark against communism but what our Government doesn't seem to understand is that terrible economic situations create the conditions for communism. Capitalism that maintains a level playing field for all is the best form of economy; unbridled, tyrannical capitalism leads to a radical ideological shift that can and does inspire communistic thoughts. This must be avoided at all costs.

Currently, Mexico has no one else to turn to for the type of assistance we offer but the more time we put between the perceived rejection of communism heralded by the collapse of the Soviet Union, the more likely a new communist regime will repackage itself and take hold in Mexico. Our current policies put our country at severe risk and threaten the very fabric of Democracy in the American continents. Cuba is easily isolated but a communist Mexico, with millions of illegal immigrants streaming across a porous border is a nightmare of epic proportions. This would lead to war and it wouldn't be isolated to Mexico. We have the same policies toward both Central and South America and before Mexico fell, you'd see the fall of many other larger and more economically powerful countries. It's time to change our policies and adopt a reasonable and humane foreign economic policy. We are on a path that leads to either total degradation of human conditions and the subjugation of millions by a powerful few or we are treading a path that leads to the re-emergence of communist ideologies that threaten our country. It's really that serious.

For many reason, I like the example Hugo Chavez is setting in Venezuela. He is trying to redistribute the wealth of that country in a fair and equitable manner and though he should be watched carefully, I would have no problem letting him continue his policies of economic reform. The fact that our Government considered these policies a large enough threat to try and overthrow his regime proves my point. Chavez is a democratically elected President in a country that still adheres to capitalistic economic principles and our rejection and attack on his regime is undermining our relationship. If Chavez were to begin to adopt communism as a response to our constant intrusions into Venezuela, who would blame him? Communism will come in the guise of resistance to U.S. hegemony and threaten our Western Hemisphere and it will be all because we chose to allow tin horn dictators and rapacious elites to keep their boots on the necks of the poor. A more equitable distribution of wealth guarantees the security of our Hemisphere and more importantly our country... though that radical idea would probably get one shot in Washington.

[Greyhound]

30. We send billions and billions (thanks Carl) to Mexico already. Their

kleptocracy just sucks it all up and nothing gets through to the people. We would have to let the Mexican People decide on their government and then commit to making sure the elected gets into office.

[Cleita]

17. You hit on something that I would like to happen.

I think businesses as a whole, and especially the mega-corporations, should fund all of our educational facilities from pre-school through university.

Why? Because they are the ones who benefit from an educated work force. It's very simple. Really.

[chazzio]

20. Your point is well taken!

BUT, may I add, Businesses who knowingly hire illegal aliens or Landlords who rent to an illegal alien should be fined and/or given jail time After all, they are breaking the law!!!. It`s just a bunch of crap that employers, especially, say that they can`t find US citizens who are qualified or willing (as in non-skilled jobs) to meet their job requirements. It`s simply a race to the bottom when it comes to paying a Us citizen a "living" wage. There is absolutely no need to build a wall between the US/Mexico to the tune of 2+ billions dollars which will probably never be built in the first place or will prove to be an ineffective barrier to cross border migrations when the above options would solve the problem. Isn`t it also interesting that there is no mention of building such a will on the Canadian border; 0r beefing up surveillance on the coasts lines and airports of the good old US of A.?

[Cleita]

25. This is why we need to make it easier for the immigrants to

enter the country legally. If they are legal, employers can't take advantage of them nor undercut the American job seeker. They would then be all making the same wage under the law.

[Greyhound]

31. What's wrong with not letting them in and realizing the benefits of the

ensuing rise in wages, those being lower crime, rising standard of living, better benefits as companies are forced to compete for good workers, a general increase in the quality of the work that is done, etc.?

[Cleita]

46. Because letting them in legally would accomplish the same thing. n/t

[SoCalDem]

23. and if the "cost" of cheap labor was not so cheap,

the employers would see the wisdom of paying more for labor in the first place..and paying it to people who were here legally.

The stream of would-be immigrants looking for work..at any wage..would soon dry up. If an employer has to pay $10K off the top and that $6 an hour..and risk being fined for hiring undocumented, he/she just might stop offering those jobs..

No jobs,... and the magnet has disappeared.

[Cleita]

26. Exactly, but we do need to expand our immigration policy so that the

majority of immigrants are here legally by making it easier for them to enter for the purposes of finding work. There always has been a need for them, or they wouldn't have come here in the first place. Even though it's been established that there is no job Americans won't do for a fair wage, there often isn't enough Americans to fill the need, especially around harvest time.

[Mountainman]

39. The jobs you say Americans would take for a fair wage never have paid a

fair wage. Immigrants take jobs that Americans won't take is true. Sure there are many things you'd do if the price was right, that is hardly anything to be proud of.

[piedmont]

41. That mindset doesn't work over the long term

At some point, U.S population HAS to stop growing. It's an impossibility to expand forever. Justifying 1% increase in population each year just because they're filling jobs that "Americans won't take" is only speeding us along toward overshooting carrying capacity.

[Cleita]

48. You are wrong.

If there is a level playing field, Americans will be hired first. The left over jobs will go to immigrants. Those who can't find a job will go back to Mexico.

[Cleita]

47. Yes, they have.

Before it became illegal for the employer to hire immigrant workers, they were hired for the going minimum or more wages just like the Americans were and paid SS and taxes like everyone else.

How do I know? I was a payroll bookkeeper in the restaurant industry for twenty years. No one even asked the legal status of these workers. All they had to have was a Social Security card. Aliens without work permits were able to get Social Security cards if they opened a bank account. I knew dozens of Auzzies, Irish and Brits who were here also illegally working and that's how they got a SS card as well.

They were paid the same as everyone else for the same job and had taxes deducted from their checks. They also got health care like everyone else. The reason Latino and other immigrants were hired was because there weren't enough Americans to fill the dishwashing and busboy jobs.

This was all before Reagans amnesty in 1986.

[1932]

28. ...and watch unemployment skyrocket to 70%

and the companies that make the biggest profits per person would be the last to be hurt, further skewing the economy in favor of the wealthiest and most powerful...

[sweetheart]

34. You fix the problem...

...by ending the drugs war, and by helping mexico to improve its standards of living
that no economic advantage comes from going north. There is no immigration problem
from canada, for sound government, and healthy social democracy... that is the real
solution, as people don't emigrate when things are working for them at home.

[Mountainman]

36. self delete

[Mountainman]

37. How do you fix a myth?

Yesterday I went to "Dust Bowl Days" at Weedpatch camp. If you have read "The Grapes of Wrath" by John Steinbeck or saw the movie you know about Weedpatch camp. In the movie it was called Wheatpatch and the movie was partially filmed at the camp. The building that serves as the gate house in the movie is still there at Weedpatch.

I talked to a few of the old folks who were migrant children in the 1930's. What the local people in Bakersfield said about them and how they were treated is very much like what is being said about and how the immigrants are being treated today. It was said that they took jobs away from the locals, that they caused the schools to be over crowed, that they caused taxes to be raised to care for them, that they were an invading horde. These were people who had to migrate or die of starvation. It is a story that is played out today all over the world.

One difference between the migrants and the immigrants is that John Steinbeck's book and Dorothea Lange's pictures called attention to the plight of the migrants and many people and the federal Government helped out. (The Grapes of Wrath was banned in Kern County) The government built migrant camps like Weedpatch and people sent money food and clothing. Over time the migrant kids grew up, learned a trade and became middle class citizens.

What was said about the "Okies" here in the San Joaquin Valley and what is being said about the immigrants in many of these threads on DU is very similar. The anti immigrant posts represent the anti migrant sentiment of the people of Bakersfield in the 30's and 40's.

One thing I know will be said is that the migrants were Americans and spoke English. Well that didn't matter back then to the local people. They were invaders and their way of speaking wasn't considered to be the way an educated person speaks. They were called dumb Okies because of it.

The main difference I see is that most of us DUers would have compassion on the migrants. I know this because of the discussions I've read when ever someone posts Dorothea Lange's picture of the "Migrant Mother." That picture was taken in Nipomo about 150 miles from Weedpatch camp.

Yet I rarely ever read any threads offering sympathy for the immigrants. Yes they are here illegally yet they are very much in the same situation as the migrants. The things said about the immigrants are about as truthful as the things said about the migrants.

The OP takes for granted that there is an "immigration problem."

My question is why don't we show as much compassion for the immigrants as we do for the migrants. Why do we take the side of the hateful society against the struggling poor?

[SoCalDem]

45. "problem" is in quotes because the real problem is employer greed

poor people always go where they can find work.. any poor people./.from any place

I have NO "problem" with immigrants..just with the grteedy people who LURE them here and then treat them like shit.

[novalib]

40. Problem???

I do NOT accept any assertion that there is an immgrant PROBLEM!!

The problem is with our society that makes immigrants live in FEAR and consigns them to a second- or third-class existence!

ALL people need to receive adequate housing, adequate food, and LIVING WAGES!

[Unvanguard]

42. Would you do the same to people who hire "immigrants"

from other states?

After all, they have the same effect on schools, don't they?

And why not extend this policy to "legal" immigrants as well? Do they lack children?

[SoCalDem]

43. It's got to start with employers.. Hire legal people

green cards, work permits, etc and there's a waiver. Each community just needs to have the authority to go to the local employers and see who their employees are and to assess the $10K IF their workers' documents don't pass muster.

If it's worth $10K per worker, on top of wages, then that's the employer's choice..

There are many laws on the books now against hiring undocumented workers, but the laws never get enforced, so some companies are free to "import" cheap labor and drive down local wages as they do it.

A plan like this would put a monetary value on each employee..to the community.. Ideally, the employers would change their ways and stop importing cheap labor, and those who came to fill the cheap jobs might not settle here and bring their families..Perhaps they would not take the risk in coming here if there were no jobs for them.

In every economy there will always be low paid jobs..there is no way around it. Dishwashing, laundry, yard works..all of the grunt jobs HAVE been done by Americans..and would be again..just not for $5 an hour.

Teenagers used to get the shit jobs, and through the work experience, gained confidence and worked their way out of those low paid jobs into better ones..or they did those jobs to help pay for school.

demonizing the workers is not the way to end the practice.. It has to hit the employers in the wallet to make them stop importing labor, and start hiring people in their communities already, who need jobs.

Just the knowledge that a competitor might turn them in for a bounty, might slow them down..