If the Iraq war is morally wrong

[Astrad]

than isn't serving in the Iraq war morally wrong? There's a lot of sympathy for soldiers and their families. But if people wouldn't serve there wouldn't be a war. I realize many serve because they believe in what they are doing but then, so does the President.

[Bok_Tukalo]

1. Soldiers serve the political will of the citizens of the United States

If the war is immoral, it is us that have that stain and not the soldier (any more or less than any other voter).

[T Wolf]

2. Is your view that military personnel cannot be held accountable

for any actions they take in uniform?

Where have we heard "I was just following orders" before?

[kiahzero]

5. Unless the order is illegal, soldiers are obliged to follow it

The principle in question is civilian control of the military. To give that up is to give up democracy itself.

[Bok_Tukalo]

9. I agree

Civilian control of the military, and the citizens of this nation through their representatives, is definitely necessary to a healthy democratic state.

[T Wolf]

15. Maybe legally obliged according to the rules of the military, but

the question was "is it morally wrong to serve" and I come down on the side of "Hell yes!"

There would be consequences but moral persons should be willing to pay them.

Would you say that MLK was wrong to lead marches and sit-ins that were against the law?

Same principle.

[RufusEarl]

17. I don't believe MLK ever broke any laws, the Selma march

was put on hold by a federal judge, and MLK did not march until that ban was lifted. Thats just one example off the top of my head, i'm sure you could find others.

[Bok_Tukalo]

18. Why are you relying on the soldier to do what you could not?

You are a citizen (I assume) of the United States and are therefore part of the debate that goes into the decision making process for how our military is used. If you were against the invasion and occupation of Iraq, your views were heard and your fellow citizens rejected them in large enough numbers that we undertook the action.

Now, after swearing an oath, you want the soldier to break that oath, even consider breaking that oath a higher morality than keeping it, in order to acheive an end you politically failed at.

[kiahzero]

20. The principle is whether the military should usurp civilian control

The answer is no.

[pampango]

8. Certainly they can be held accountable for misbehavior,

e.g. concentration camps, civilian massacres, etc. I don't believe that they can be held morally accountable for fighting a war, that their government sent them to, as long as they abide by the "rules of war." Indeed, practically every country has an army and that is the purpose that they serve.

[HereSince1628]

6. True, but I'd add, so long as the soldier commits no other crimes,

and being a good soldier includes recognizing and refusing to obey an illegal order when one comes along.

30+ years ago when I sat through lectures on Geneva Conventions in basic training I thought it was unncessary to talk to American recruits about this. I was SO wrong.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. A lot of the soldiers over there have been brought up to believe that

the highest form of patriotism is "serving your country" unquestioningly. Sad to say, every government, good and bad, has promoted that idea.

Still, the higher moral ground goes to those who refuse to fight.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

4. A soldier's duty is to serve their country, right or wrong

Sadly, the country is in the hands of a group of reckless, arrogant fools.

That's why you have to pick leaders who aren't completely freaking immoral.

[novalib]

14. Even If It Means Participating In War Crimes??!!

"Right or Wrong"??!!!

What about those soldiers who are torturing people and raping women ON ORDERS FROM THEIR SUPERIORS???

Are you suggesting that those soldiers should not be held accountable for the choices they made and the orders they followed????

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

19. I believe the issue was about serving in the actual war

Not violations of the Geneva Convention and the bad acts committed by soldiers that violate those. They are seperate issues.

You can also stop shouting. It doesn't make you sound any more rational.

[novalib]

23. You Say "Illegal War"

I say "ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL OCCUPATION"!

Some things are just worth shouting about!

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[TahitiNut]

22. Got saliva?

:eyes:

Your hateful rhetoric is sadly all too familiar to me. :puke:

[novalib]

24. Hateful??

Which is more hateful:

Justifying the illegal and immoral actions of some?

Or

Speaking the TRUTH about the illegal and immoral actions of some?

[TahitiNut]

33. Blaming those in service to their nation for the crimes of their nation

... is cowardice and blame-shifting. The invasion and occupation of Iraq is, until WE THE PEOPLE prosecute, convict, and imprison those government officials who've committed a war crime IN OUR NAME, a crime committed by We The People of the United States. We are ALL guilty. We are an outlaw nation!

We have met the culprits and they are US! We are still a democracy. Those who would shift the blame are abdicating their responsibility as citizens of this democracy and, in so doing, are just as complicit in the destruction of this democracy as those who'd take power to themselves.

Until We The People shed our blood in the streets of this nation in defense of its democracy, we have NOT done enough. Proclaiming others guilty while sitting comfortably at a keyboard and not in jail or hospitalized is nothing but hateful blame-shifting.

[novalib]

34. Rodney King

Remember him??

He was the African American man who some LA cops savagely beat up several years ago.

The cops were working on behalf of the people of Los Angeles.

And yet, somehow, some of us were able to say that the COPS were guilty. And immoral.

It did NOT require an indictment against ALL of the people of Los Angeles.

It only required knowing that what the LA Cops did was wrong, morally reprehensible, and criminal -- even if they were doing it "in the service of their city"

[genie_weenie]

37. Did you blame every single cop in the United States?

Or those 4 who did the beating?

[novalib]

39. Why Would I Blame Every Single Cop?

Why in the world would I blame every single cop?

I was responding to a post that suggested that it was wrong to blame soldiers without indicting the entire population of the United States.

My post was pointing out that it was possible to hold some LA Cops accountable for their own actions -- even though they were doing the illegal actions "in the service of their city".

[mike_c]

10. yes-- military personel have a responsibility to refuse illegal orders...

...and I believe that history will condemn the war against Iraq as a crime against humanity. There is no honor in serving fascism.

[Bok_Tukalo]

12. If history is a harsh judge, it is the citizens of the US

.... that will be held accountable and not the soldier because we are the ones sent them there.

[filer]

13. Support our troops.

Bring them home from this immoral war!

[Quantess]

38. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! BRING THEM HOME NOW! (n./t.)

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[boolean]

16. Soliders stuck between a rock and a hard place

If a soldier disobeys orders, he or she gets thrown in jail. That for one thing.

For another thing, if a soldier would rather go to jail than die, he or she knows full well that another soldier will die in his or her place. That's another thing.

Now, if ALL OF THEM got together and refused to obey, that would be a different story entirely. I'd personally LOVE to see that happen, but it's not going to because

1) They are brainwashed killing machines. (This is a fundamental truth for any successful military)
2) If the uprising were to fail, they'd all be charged with treason and executed. The chances of that happening are far greater than if they just took the risk of going to war and dying.

[leftofthedial]

21. there MUST be some point at which it becomes a crime to serve

in an illegal occupation

[Homer Wells]

25. Taken from an anti-war poster in the 60's

"SUPPOSE THEY GAVE A WAR AN NOBODY CAME?"

[iamahaingttta]

26. At this point, I have no sympathy...

...for soldiers or their families.
Sorry!
For the first couple of years I did, because most of those guys were holdovers from Clinton's army.
After 9/11, a lot of people joined (including a few acquaintances) because they thought it was the right thing to do. (I thought they were/are suckers.)
At this point, they should desert. They should put their arms down and walk away.
If enough of them did this, it would be over...

Sorry!

[genie_weenie]

27. Holy Fuck! Some of these posts make me sick!

Ah yes why don't they just quit? Hell, it's not as if their are any ramifications if they refuse to serve. They have nothing to fear, right?

Fear of being court-martialed or going to prison like Sgt. Kevin Benderman. Fear of being called a coward or a traitor. Fear of a dishonorable discharge. Fear of being ridiculed back home. Fear of reprisals from others in the military. Fear of being labeled as un-American or anti-American. Fear of being called an anti-war weenie by some washed-up, has-been, pompous ass.

And after all it's not as if most people are brainwashed throughout their life to Pledge Allegiance to the Flag and to respect authority figures like the President or their so-called elected officials who keep voting to put them into Iraq and Afghanistan.

And since their are so many jobs out there, why join up for the free health & dental care, tuition assistance, housing assistance, a paycheck every 2 weeks. That's just plain stupid! America has jobs a plenty and the Government doesn't do anything to force people into the military, like say refuse to raise the minimum wage for 10 fucking years...

These posts and the ones which support it make me sick. You can certainly blame those who issue illegal orders, you can blame those who commit atrocities like Abu G and Hadithah, but to do a broad based smear on those who are in the service is vile.

Edit: to make the title more reflect my anger at some of these posts1

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

28. Excellent post

Said all I wanted to say but can't put it as well into words. These people who sit in their comfy chair repeating "Why don't they just leave?" are as out of touch as the freepers who parrot "Support our Troops" and "Let's kick Muslim ass, boys" while rubbing their hands in glee over another tax cut due to a slash in VA benefits.

[TahitiNut]

35. Indeed. It's cowardly blame-shifting.

The crimes against peace and war crimes are the crimes of this nation - crimes of We the People. They have been committed In Our Name and, unless and until We The People prosecute, convict, and imprioson those responsible for committing these crimes in our name, we are all guilty. We are an outlaw nation. All of us.

Sitting comfortably behind one's keyboard and shifting blame to those LEAST powerful in directiong the course of this nation is sheer cowardice. Until we've given the last measure to securing our democracy, we are complicit in surrendering it. Until we have shed our own blood in the streets in defencse of out own Constitution, we have absolutely nobody else to blame.

[T Wolf]

29. It is really sad to see so many so-called progressives on this site

defending immoral actions by the military.

Rationalizations to excuse participation in this crime against humanity may come from different sources - e.g. fear of sounding unpatriotic or anti-poor-soldier-who didn't-know-what-they-were-getting-into. But the pro-war arguments are, in the end, simply mental exercises to avoid confronting the reality that human beings are doing wrong.

And we here are supposed to be the good guys.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

31. No, I think it's just you thinking in black and white/good vs. evil

And that's sad, because that is what conservatives do.

[novalib]

32. Riddle Me This

So......thinking in black and white/good vs. evil makes someone a conservative????

Well riddle me this:

One country -- very big and very strong -- uses "shock and awe" tactics to illegally and unilaterally invade another smaller abd weaker country. It then proceeds to KILL more than 650,000 innocent civilians in that country.

Is the action by the stronger and bigger country right or wrong? Good or evil?

[Fleshdancer]

41. maybe some of us so-called progressives have family members....

who are caught in the middle of this hell and so we realize on a very personal level what some of these soldiers are dealing with. And since we've now reduced our arguments into questioning the progressive values of others, what exactly is so progressive about making generalizations about a large group of people you know nothing about?

[novalib]

43. VERY EXCELLENT POST!

It is, indeed, sad, to see so many so-called progressives defending immoral actions on this site.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. The war in Iraq is immoral.

Therefore, it is immoral not to do something about ending the war.

Therefore, it is immoral not to help the Democrats take back congress.

Therefore, it is immoral to get in senseless arguments that might make Democrats look like assholes.

[bloom]

40. I think that there are differences in intent

between a soldier (however clueless) who thinks (or thought) that he or she was going to do some good - and Bush - who I don't think ever thought that. He may have said that - but I don't think that he thought that this was going to do Iraq or the Iraqis good. I think the plan was to destroy the country and profit from that destruction, set up bases, take control of oil and gas and not worry about the anarchy.

At the same time - there is such a thing as conscientious objection and I support those who refuse to fight - not those who kill people because they signed up for a fucked-up invasion/occupation. And yes - sometimes there are consequences for doing the right thing. If that means jail instead of killing people - then that's the way it is.

[Zhade]

42. Yes. It's a terrible position to be stuck in.

I don't support the troops, except to survive, not kill, and come home.