"Emergency Paper Ballots" will sink Dems in Nov (& I'm a paper ballot guy)

[Land Shark]

I'm against emergency paper ballots and am starting to say so in various writings. Ironically, emergency paper ballots will greatly help to snatch Democratic defeat from the jaws of Democratic victory.

On the other hand, if you're one of my Republican friends you will like these emergency paper ballots.

And indeed, my favorite top political operative for Republicans in the Republican California Secretary of STate's office is indeed highly in favor of emergency paper ballots: Susan Lapsley.

Per a letter of instructions from Susan Lapsley to all California Counties, I note that 10 days ago, this key political operative for the Republicans and highly vendor-connected Susan Lapsley of the California Secretary of State's office had already instructed California counties to have emergency paper ballots on hand, photocopying them if necessary. (email me for copy at [email protected], and check replies below because there may be a weblink to it soon)

Especially since Susan Lapsley is the one who wrote to the House of Representatives which interpreted her letter as the green light to swear in Bilbray one week after the election in California's 50th Congressional District's special election this past June 6, this enthusiastic support by Lapsley for emergency paper ballots should, at the very least, give pause. Lapsley is the one person in the California Secretary of State's office that has the authority to do things without checkin' with anybody, and has had that authority since arriving on Day One, not too long ago, so she's some sort of big wheel.

Problems with Emergency Ballots:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: All of the votes that get siphoned off into absentees and "emergency paper ballots" will be very disproportionately Dem votes. That will mean that in many critical races the Dems will start off LOSING on election night and will have to fight not just on November 7 (election day) to have votes counted, but on November 8, again on November 9, November 10, November 11, November 12, November 13, November 14, November 15, November 16, November 17, November 18, November 19 .... in fact DON'T PLAN ON EATING ANY TURKEY ON THANKSGIVING DAY because it puts you to sleep with typtophan and then your votes will definitely not be counted. Seriously, the election STARTS on November 8 in any jurisdiction where folks are investing in an absentee or emergency paper ballot strategery (sic). And this long slog back through the slime of media defeat based on election night touch screen DRE results will be subject to definite legal risks of court-ordered stoppage of the count, because the emergency paper ballots are being deployed without the HAVA-required and LAVA-provided legal infrastructure required by HAVA and Bush v. Gore to be set prior to the election and not made up after the election.... As such, the entire class is subject to being considered "illegal ballots" and although notice of this risk is not required in order to make this claim, we are surely on notice that emergency paper ballots may well lack the necessary legal authorization because folks pushed for LAVA and obviously it DID NOT PASS. In any event, the Busby Bilbray race was the first federal election after the January 2006 HAVA deadline and it took them over three weeks after the June 6 election to finish counting the ballots, and there will be MORE of them in November. They of course reported DRE results immediately.

Here's the risks, spelled out plainly:

FIRST: Thru emergency ballot hysteria, We create a stampede of Democratic and progressive voters into emergency ballots based on the fear of DREs, a fear which is disproportionately shared by Dems over Republicans. This stampede into an identifiable population of "emergency ballots" (as opposed to swimming in the sea of all ballots) means that if there is any legal infirmities to the emergency ballots, they can be cut out of the election results, thus hurting Dems much more than Republicans.

Example of Easy to Find "legal infirmity" resulting in mass disfranchisement: In San Diego county in 2004, a mayoral candidate who was a write in and actually WON the fucking election got thousands of ballots disqualified because the voters wrote in her name properly as a write in, but failed to ALSO check the box for write in candidate. No rational person would think a write in would be written in by the voter WITHOUT the intent to vote for that candidate, but that did not stop the counters or the courts from disenfranchising thousands of voters based on this legal technicality.

There are four main consequences of causing the stampede into emergencies, the first TWO are GUARANTEED, and the second two are likely:

THerefore, at a minimum the stampede of Dems into emergencies can

(1) "explain" REALLY pro-Republican results on DREs that are in fact fraudulent hacked results, because of the democratic stampede into emergency ballots draining Dem numbers from touch screen or other election night-announced numbers, even if there is no subsequent election contest challenge. (This will be enough to suppress stories about the election numbers and their discrepancies, once again, providing plausible denial of irregularity in the touch screen DRE results).

(2) EMERGENCY PAPER BALLOTS IF "SUCCESSFUL" GUARANTEE THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE WINNING ON THE DAY AFTER THE &^$%! ELECTION! The DREs announce the first results on election night because they are the fastest horse for reporting results, and therefore the Republicans will be ahead on election night AND the day after and Dems will have to play catchup as provisionals and emergency ballots are slowly counted over days

(3) often times ballots don't EVER get counted, as we all know, and there won't be control numbers on the total numbers of ballots if the elections officials are just using photocopiers as seems to be suggested by Lapsley's letter, and

(4) there appears to be a reasonably strong case that all such emergency ballots votes would be "illegal votes" just like the San Diego mayoral write-ins were illegal votes for technical reasons, and would not count and would be stricken in an election contest, so a court order halting any counting of said ballots could likely be obtained. Seems like a court might do that, just as Bush v Gore stopped recounts, or the courts might be avoided, if they can arrange a premature swearing in like Bilbray. The reasons would revolve around inadequate legal infrastructure being in place for the proper counting of those ballots, which I won't go into too much detail on here.

We need to face an uncomfortable fact: elections systems are now "locked in" for November. There are no magic bullets.

Keep in mind that in the June 6 special election in CA's 50th Cong. District, with lower turnout than will occur on November 7, they DID NOT FINISH COUNTING THE BALLOTS UNTIL JUNE 28, 22 days after the election, and they certified on June 29 and 30th. There will be plenty of time for the Republicans to fire up lawyers to stop the democratic "comeback" as results continue to drip in based on provisionals, absentees, and emergency ballots....

But not to worry, even though the emergencies don't get counted on election day or up to a week after election day, they'll eventually get counted -- two *&$%! years later -- like Richard Hayes Phillips is doing right now in Ohio regarding 2004 ballots.

At the end of the day: You can gamble on emergency ballots, but not happily, only shaking and quivering with fear and dread. (and preparing to fight through all of November to have them counted)

Would people take to the streets? They didn't with Busby Bilbray but this is obviously bigger and folks didn't know the premature swearing in of Bilbray would be argued to terminate any further judicial inquiry into that election. But now they have the microwave weapons expressly ready for testing on mobs as expressly stated by the Air Force Secretary, and they have habeas corpus suspended, and Halliburton apparently has built those huge detention camps. Can you feel the intimidation yet? This will attempt to chill dissent even if it were all a bunch of lies and propaganda. Most likely, in November We will see how much of a land of the free and a home of the brave we have left.

--Paul Lehto
Attorney at Law
Counsel in CA50 Election Contest San Diego, WA
[email protected]

[Land Shark]

1. OK, I guess at 5 recommends and no kicks I can kick myself n/t

[blm]

41. Have you called Boxer, Kerry, Feingold's offices with your concerns?

Because it really sounds like we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't on this.

[Land Shark]

42. Yes, choose your poison, but must importantly DO NOT DEFINE poison

as "solution" or else that is the worst fate of all: that's why i'm educating on the downside of Emergency paper ballots. If we're prepared to accept worse than expected election night results and fight like hell in every district with lawyers to the hilt to count every vote, then EPB can be a reasonable choice of poison/strategy.

[silverweb]

55. Leave it to the reTHUG slime.

They sure do know how to game every possible system in their favor, don't they?

Don't they know how to do anything honestly, without cheating?

This is so frustrating -- and it has to hit the major media NOW.

[focusfan]

44. i think we should stand together and demand a recount

if for some reason the repuke should win we should take
Mexicos Q and march in the streets for a recount.

[Judi Lynn]

2. Kicking!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[stellanoir]

3. Thanks for all the clarifications.

Why was I hearing. . ."my, my, my said the spider to the fly" whilst I was reading this? Oh nevermind. Uhhh that would be a rhetorical question.

So glad you're on top of this mess.

The last paragraph may haunt me a bit.

In happier times I'd say, "who pee-ed in your cereal. . .?"

However instead, I'll just throw your words of assurance from a few weeks ago right backatchya. . .

"this is unsustainable."

K & R'd

[Binka]

4. Jesus Will It Ever End K & R

I am so sick of these thieves and Fascist's!

[Land Shark]

11. It will be a lot closer to ending when all realize e-voting is FUBAR

it can not be "reformed" into success, it must GO AWAY. Computers are great for many things, but since they do what they are told without regard to law ethics or anything else by WHOEVER they are told to do it and WHENEVER they are told to do it, you can't have COMPUTERS counting votes in invisible trade secrecy of electronic software. This is not asking too much is it?: let's have transparent and open ethics in the most important of all PUBLIC things: vote counting.

Computers are also very fast, so they will always beat humans but this necessarily means that paper ballot "fixes" will be slower and then there will be the problem of distorted initial (electronic) results relative to real, final results IF WE EVER GET TO THE FINAL RESULT (which is the problem identified in the OP)

[secular humanoid]

48. right

"This is not asking too much is it?: let's have transparent and open ethics in the most important of all PUBLIC things: vote counting."

EXACTLY!

The ONLY reason not to have complete transparency in the election process
is if "someone" is trying to hide something and/or cheat.


peace

[Junkdrawer]

5. So, Paul, what do you think of Kucinich's Paper Ballot bill (H.R. 6200)?

BTW: I too am skeptical of the Emergency Paper Ballots.

[Land Shark]

7. it's great if ALL presidential ballots are Paper, would be nice to extend

it to Senate and House of representatives races, too...

It's a good bill overall.

[me b zola]

31. And that raises another issue

I'm in favor of standardized federal elections. Is this being talked about by activists or legislators?

[Land Shark]

35. There seems to be building momentum for that, esp with this election

but the question may be, if the system is recognized as having crashed already this year (note, i do not locate the train wreck in the future, it is already irrevocably occurred with secret vote counting, etc.) will this congress or even a somewhat dem-improved congress give us a good solution?? Note that HAVA passed (and should be repealed) with strong bipartisan support, bringin us this nightmare. We've learned a lot, and we have Howard Dean, but even Howard Dean faces resistance, apparently, within Dem ranks.

But in the event of a yet further train wreck, then the federalized system may be seen as the solution to a "patchwork of chaos" with all different systems everywhere (even though this diversity does provide some resistance to national cheating strategies, requiring local adapations all over the place). So you may see this development sooner than you might think, but we will be in for a big battle then and will need everyone in on this....

Paul

[stlsaxman]

6. Most say that we meed an overwhelming turn-out to guarantee no hacking.

That's the strategery I've implemented this year with everyone I know. Also I remind them to give themselves plenty of time to stand in the line to vote as MO has taken the party line vote off the ballot.

[Land Shark]

8. well, U can't "guarantee no hacking" but blowouts can't credibly be stolen

[elehhhhna]

16. blowout. lol. MADNATE MAYBE?!! Thx Paul. You'll look good sporting

that medal of Freedom.

[hootinholler]

9. Only one minor criticism...

Is San Diego in Wa.?

Other than that, the reasoning is sound and one I hadn't considered. Thank you Paul for another eye opening point.

-Hoot

[Land Shark]

10. I *wish* San Diego were in WA, but it is in California, i stand corrected

[SheilaT]

12. I'm not sure I

completely understand what's meant by Emergency Paper Ballots.

Is it requesting a paper ballot at the polling place instead of using the electronic machine?

I live in Kansas and intend to do an advance paper ballot and mail it in. These ballots are counted first, and I doubt there's very little fraud attached to them.

But I do agree that if results differ widely from late polls or exit polls, then we should be prepared to riot in the streets. Of course, it will be harder for nation-wide rioting to occur if what's in doubt are scattered Senate and Representative races.

I've been saying for more than four years now is that the confidence we've had in Democratic wins has always presumed free, fair, and honest elections, and we have not had such a thing since before 2000. Of course, it's important also to understand that not all races, not all voting machines are rigged. All it takes is careful switching of a few votes in key precincts. You'd think that by 2004 they'd have figured that out and not indulged in such obvious fraud as occurred, especially in Ohio. Of course, without a leader at the top refusing to accept fraudulent results and demanding a full and accurate recount, fraudulent results stand.

I wonder if Howard Dean has spoken out much on this?

[Land Shark]

17. "emergency paper ballots" are a new breed of nonprovisional ballot

that is supposed to be available both "just in case" of meltdown and also "at voter request." It is the "at voter request" that will guarantee that this extra category of ballot will grow, based on COMPLETELY REASONABLE VIEWS of touch screen DREs.

We can't let our completely justifiable severe problems with touch screen DREs cause us to panic and then get us to jump at "solutions" which present equal or greater problems.

Even if someone argues the problems are less with emergency paper (recountability, etc.) ARE WE PREPARED TO FIGHT THRU ALL OF NOVEMBER AND PERHAPS BEYOND, ALA BUSH V GORE 2000? Most people are going to stagger across the "finish line" of election night and hope to watch the results pour in while quaffing a few or more brews. THEY WILL HAVE VACATION RESERVATIONS ALREADY SET FOR A COUPLE DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION. Want some insight into "inappropriate early concession speeches??"

[SheilaT]

22. I suppose then

what we need are thousands of Democrats as poll workers who make sure those ballots are actually counted. That would help somewhat.

Remember two years ago the woman in, where was it, Washington State? who refused to concede and insisted the ballots be recounted. Oddly enough, she wound up winning. In the end, bullies are cowards, and those currently running the country are bullies and cowards.

[Breeze54]

91. Washington State - Governor's race! She won!! LMAO!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Breeze54]

51. I don't see why you are so 'upset'....

Why not have an emergency ballot? :shrug: If a machine malfunctions,
then the voter uses the EPB and it is counted at the close of the polls.

[Land Shark]

53. if you don't see why one might not use an emergency ballot then

read the OP again.

They are triggered not just by meltdown, but upon any request of any voter. You wrongly assume that they are all going to be fully counted on election day promptly at close of the polls. I suspect that because you assume that they are simply just counted at close of polls, that is why you don't understand the problem that in many jurisdictions, paper ballots will take days or even weeks to count while pro-Republican numbers are screamed from every newspaper. Does that make sense now? Perhaps your particular county will do a perfect job but so far the congressional elections have taken long to count absentees etc.

[Breeze54]

90. My state uses paper....

always has! But we're old fashioned that way!

And almost completely and totally BLUE!! lmao! :)

[AntiFascist]

59. Are you saying that Senator Boxer has been pushing the wrong solution?

She has been pushing the "Confidence in Voting Act" which would make alternative paper ballots available at every polling place.

[Land Shark]

68. more like i'm saying that there is no "solution", at best mitigation

[gully]

13. Yikes.

Excellent information.

[berni_mccoy]

14. Damned if we do, Damned if we don't

The only answer is to get rid of Diebold and ES&S.

[Land Shark]

18. don't forget sequoia and triad and hart intercivic n/t

[texpatriot2004]

15. Kick nm

[kpete]

19. As usual, My admiration for your work is unyielding

The truth that you unveil is chilling - but the "fight" in you is inspiring

I will meet you on the battlefield...


Elections belong to the people. It is their decision. If they decide to turn their back on the fire and burn their behinds, then they will just have to sit on their blisters.
Abraham Lincoln

[Land Shark]

24. rest up for the fall's battles then, my liege, rest up

on edit: dictionary.com defines liege as meaning both lord or feudal vassal/subject, so i figure that's an appropriate word here for the democratic struggles to which you refer.

[kpete]

25. I think the struggle is worthy to both Lord or vassal

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning.

Frederick Douglass

[druidity33]

66. ah...

i've always loved that quote!

K&R

[BelgianMadCow]

20. I wonder, does the DNC not have plans on how to make sure

the votes are counted appropriately this time? and with plan, I mean one party opinion on what to do in each situation, instructions that could be passed along during the GOTV compaign & by poll watchers?

Or is there simply no good answer?

[Land Shark]

23. they could and they should, I think i'll ask someone from the voting

rights institute at the DNC this weekend in columbus at the election revival conference, where greg moore is supposed to be attending...

[lonestarnot]

26. Yes please do!

Yikes this is well fair notice of a fight! I'm there until way past Thanksgiving!

[BelgianMadCow]

29. Excellent. I'd happily help it to front & center attention when you post

their advice.

[kster]

21. This is why we need the Dem's to challenge the Republicans

to a PBHC race in November, They need to get on TV and make the challenge, Loud and Clear, if for nothing else, but to watch the Repubs, not be able to accept it, Dem's then for the next three weeks can call the Repubs cowards for not accepting the challenge, and at the same time making America wonder WHY the Repubs won't accept, America loves a challenge, and they understand a challenge.

[Generic Other]

27. Gosh darn it, I don't want to believe this but it sounds so

plausible. How do we respond? We need a strategy before it happens!!

[autorank]

28. Registration precedes even voting...could that be the first concern?

First causes are a favorite of mine. They're so hard to pin down. In the case of voting, the first cause is registration, the traditional starting point for voter suppression.

The states have put together centralized voter registration databases. Imagine 50 Katherine Harris' - well don't, but imagine 50 opportunities to take people off the rolls. Any inconsistency, in some states, between a voter registration and other public documentation (often social services records) can result in a disqualification.

How many people will show up at the polls and be turned away in 2006? Quite a few I suggest, just enough to help certain candidates in those close elections. This is a KEY issue and deserves more attention.

With regard to emergency paper ballots, anything the California Secretary of State's Office endorses is something you must seriously question. The idea of xeroxing ballots, as cited in the CA SoS communication, is a real trap, imho. These would be the most challenge-intensive set of ballots ever were this done.

It's not "election integrity" that's the problem, it's the "integrity" or the people who run the election system.

Let's keep that in mind as various alternatives emerge. Those who administrate the
voting system are the ones to watch.

[BelgianMadCow]

30. True dat!!!

I remember some registration shenanigans in 2000 (DBT I believe it was) and 2004.

I tend to believe that many informed and watchful eyes will do a lot.
Isn't there some money left from the challenge Kerry was gonna mount in Ohio?

Also, what about independent exit polling whose results are available in full detail to ALL?

[mod mom]

32. I was planning to vote in person/absentee @ the Franklin Co BOE. What

are you suggesting to do? We have ES & S w Damshroeder + Blackwell at the helm.

[Land Shark]

37. If you think OHIO is prepared to "take it to 'em" immediately after

the election and to be HOUNDING media with calls to ignore election night results (since they can't be confirmed anyway, they are DRE "faith based" results) then I'd vote on paper in some fashion, despite all the drawbacks. A small percentage on paper is ok, (2%) and getting ALL DEMS on paper or essentially all would also be OK but nearly impossible to do I suspect, what's dangerous the most is the middle ground where 4-18% of the electorate requests a paper ballot and those are overwhelmingly Dems because that will create really wacky election night initial reports, that will have to be on the comeback trail from for many a day.

It's "choose your poison" and I think some prominent endorsers of EPB agree with me completely on that frame (but some are more "optimistic" about EPB and that is, I think, dangerous and misguided because it leads to being unprepared for the post-election phase, THE MOST CRITICAL PHASE WHERE IT'S REALLY FOR ALL THE MARBLES.

Save energy and money for the post-election phase, including litigation. Unless you have fortunate wealthy volunteers or who at least have an independent income without working for it (retired, etc) then you will need to be paying some folks to work on this stuff 24/7 including lawyers. Of course the efforts can be supplemented with many part timers...

[OnyxCollie]

76. I live in Portage County OH and called the BOE yesterday.

I asked about voting early, explaining to person that I did not trust DRE's. I wanted to know if this (paper ballot) was an "official" ballot or if it is somehow "marked" or provisional in some way. The woman sounded a bit contemptous when she answered, but said, "No. This is an actual ballot." She also told me the BOE was receiving about 100 requests for absentee ballots a day.

So, are we doomed, or what?

[marions ghost]

33. quoting you landshark...

"Most likely, in November We will see how much of a land of the free and a home of the brave we have left."

You said it. THIS ELECTION IS A CRITICAL TEST of whether we still live in a democracy or not.

....please everybody VOTE and keep your eyes open and wits about you at the polls....we will get much more info about what's working and what's not this time--

[helderheid]

34. I HATE that I can't recommend again.

[cyberpj]

36. On top of this, I worry about all that laptop data "stolen" this year -

I'm betting all those names get cross-checked and any non-registered end up as registered and Republican votes. So many were military databases! And it's so easy to believe military would vote Republican.

I need a break. I'm feeling overwhelmed and hopeless. Give me a day or two and I'll get back on the phones encouraging massive Dem turnout (just to stand a chance) and offering to drive but for today, your post has really kicked the wind out of my sails.

[Land Shark]

38. Let me personally encourage you to get out the VOTE!!!!!

Only a close election can be stolen, in the end. OK? If it's 70-30 nobody will find a result going the other way to be credible. Same for 65-35, and every point counts even at 55-45. If I had your phone number I'd call you right now and tell you to get to work. Remember my line above, "in November, we will find out how much of the land of the free and the home of the brave we have left" and by that I meant to refer primarily to activist efforts in November.

[cyberpj]

73. Ok. Ok. I took this afternoon and evening off to pout but you're right..

"you're right....
you're right....
I know you're right."

And I'm going to use your, "only a close election can be stolen" as reasoning for all those that keep saying "what's the use?". It works. And besides, giving up is not an option.

Thanks for ALL YOU DO!!!

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

39. You make some excellent points, Counselor.

Thanks for your insight, Paul.

[diva77]

40. but since we're damned if we do and damned if we don't

wouldn't it be better to fight for paper and take on the legal snafus rather than roll over for DREs? the scenario is so over the top outrageous that I'm loathe to accept it; if a DRE fails, what do you suggest for voters? what legal infrastructure is required to be set up? How long does it take to accomplish this? sorry, I don't see the light :dunce:

[Land Shark]

43. the Light is this: you must be VERY aware of the damning side of either

choice you make and be ready for it locally. The most dangerous thing is thinking that EPB is a relief or a solution or NECESSARILY even an improvement. It will only improve things if we are fully prepared to accept worse than expected election night results as Dem votes are drained from those results, and fully prepared to fight to have each vote counted and in many cases that will actually require legal teams to be involved starting BEFORE election night for post-election readiness.

It's too late for the legal and administrative infrastructure to be set up IF IT DOESN'T EXIST ALREADY. New Hampshire has it, for example. But it's too late to pass laws or regulations, do training, etc.

[Pooka Fey]

45. K&R

[w4rma]

46. I disagree. The "emergency paper ballots" arent absentees or provisionals.

They are honest to God paper ballots. They are to be treated like any other normal paper ballot. And they can't be challenged as a provisional can or even as an absentee ballot can.

These paper ballots will be quick to count, because they are simply anonymous votes, and are a first step back to paper ballots, away from these hacker traps.

I would bet that some districts will switch back to paper ballots just because they don't want to bother with maintaining two types of balloting.

Please don't fight against these paper ballots.

[Land Shark]

49. And it is the paper ballots that they don't finish counting on electionday

While it's important that the ballots can't be challenged (if indeed that is the case) that still is beside the point of the slowness of the counting of them, which is the crux of the points above. Even where they start the counting on election day, it is wishful thinking to think that in a contested race the process of counting a newly expanding type of ballot will end and be completed on election day as well. That's why I cite the example of the most recent congressional election where counting was not completed for over two weeks. That's important to know regardless of whether the jurisdiction is going as fast as it can or not.

BTW, I'm on listservs for handcounted paper ballots, it's not like I have a problem with such a system. What I have a problem with, perhaps, is people who only want to talk about these emergency paper ballots as if they were just plain a good thing: because if we're not concerned about their effects we will in no way be prepared like we need to be.

[Breeze54]

52. They're for an EMERGENCY, hence the name.

Progressive Democrats of America (PDA), one of the initial signatories,
has created an online petition for citizens to urge their Secretaries
of State and Governors to ensure such plans and procedures are created
and implemented immediately.

Take action by clicking here… http://pdamerica.org/petition/paper-ballot-emails.php

The open letter, sent to all State Governors, Secretaries of State and State Election Directors
calling for Emergency Paper Ballot plans and procedures and signed by 55 organizations and individuals,

can be downloaded here .

http://www.bradblog.com/Docs/EmergencyPaperBallots_States_FINAL_Signed_101106.pdf

Who supports Emergency Paper Ballots?

Individuals such as:

Sen. Barbara Boxer, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Sen. John Kerry, Rep. Rush Holt,
Leon County, FL Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho, OH elections attorney Cliff Arnebeck
and University of Iowa computer scientist Doug Jones.

Organizations signed on include:

Common Cause, VerifiedVoting.org, VotersUnite.org, BlackBoxVoting.org, VoterAction.org,
National Coalition on Black Civic Participation, MoveOn.org, TrueMajorityAction.org,
Progressive Democrats and many other national, state and local Election Integrity advocate groups.

[Land Shark]

54. Only if you define "emergency" as "upon request of any voter at any time"

because they are required to be made available upon a voter's request for any reason.

Also, if there's a real meltdown votes will definitely be lost or unreliable for those who have already voted, so no amount of paper ballots as to SUBSEQUENT voters is going to rescue the votes of teh PAST voters. At that point you are simply mollifying the voters and sending them a way happy, fooling them (perhaps even permanently if elections officials try to fake it) into going along with the idea that there has been a valid election after the meltdown.

Possibly there may be a sliver of cases like power outage where votes MIGHT not be lost and emergency ballots could be used in a real emergency. But that's a minority likelihood, IMHO compared to machine crash and malfunction.

[w4rma]

56. The electronic hacking boxes need to go.

There needs to be a system in place for when they are gone.

This is that system. It will work concurrently at first and the electronic system will be phased out.

[Land Shark]

58. well in order to have a legitimate election

the Republicans votes have to be counted fairly too. So if you have DREs in the election the election is illegitimate. We may for practical reasons look the other way but that's a very slippery slope. We simply CAN NOT take a look at the numbers and if it "seems" OK, then accept the magic DRE results on faith, because a stolen election in most cases looks just like a real election.

Elections are PURE procedure, that's all they are. If the procedure gets messed up, there's no legitimacy.

You know it's a vicious two-sided sword: incumbents have an incentive to trash elections systems since they can only be replaced by legitimate systems that work, and challengers have an incentive to uphold the system. That's fundamentally why we see republicans not taking care of the system and the dems (some of them) with their heads in the sand.

[w4rma]

62. Boiling it all down. Its a bad idea to fight these emergency paper ballots

Some posters are already being confused, in this very thread, that paper ballots, in general, are somehow bad because of your OP. Going after this issue will only hurt the fight against electronic hackable voting equipment.

Lousy, shortsighted plan to spend any resources at all trying to attack this.

As for your points about not having a legitimate election, well we don't have that now, anymore. At least this looks towards the future and makes a transition to legitimate elections easier and more likely.

[AntiFascist]

64. I agree with this...

it's very bad timing to question alternative ballots at this stage of the game. Land Shark should have thought of this earlier.

[Land Shark]

69. The proposal for "emergency ballots" is the one that came up recently

and Anti-F I'm surprised that you would assert that it is ever too late to warn somebody of dangers of this nature. Nobody gets to go sailing off with *everyone's* democracy and do what they please, democracy means discussion.

The problem as I see it is this: Elections are SYSTEMS. This emergency paper ballot proposal is NOWEHERE NEAR the same as paper ballots plain and simple across the board, it is a complicated INTERVENTION into an electronic voting regime that is mostly legal in nature. As a lawyer and specifically as an election lawyer, I'm certainly entitled to an opinion. THere are several hazardous legal dimensions that I'm not even laying out here because I don't want to publicize those.

The bottom line is that those who were most excited about this proposal were not fully aware of the problems or hazards of this proposal. If this is seen as some kind of "solution" then that is a deeply ill informed position. If you think the bush administration has set up our voting system so that there are no easy answers and messed it up pretty good, why, you would have an informed opinion in my book.

There simply is NO BALLOT that any voter can cast "confidently" thanks to the Bush Administration, Bush v. Gore, HAVA and other "gifts" to democracy of this administration.

[AntiFascist]

79. My main problem with this is the timing...

bringing up this issue right before elections leaves us with no viable alternatives, but it does work to demotivate people and perhaps cause them to give up hope -- this is the most dangerous situation of all! I understand technically why this is an important issue and I'm sure people will be working on voting systems for many elections to come. Getting rid of Diebold as it exists now, once and for all, seems like it will take a lot of effort in and of itself, but if people demand paper ballots then it will at least be making a statement and there will be a paper document of the vote.

[Land Shark]

83. Not sure that's fair: Prop for Emerg ballots=Oct 12, my post=Oct 13

A one day delay makes it bad timing? Or does the last minute emergency ballot proposal just get a free ride and total suppression of debate under your view? I'm not sure I understand your "TIMING" issue.

[AntiFascist]

85. Barbara Boxer has been pushing the Confidence in Voting Act....

since September. If there is some legal distinction between the alternative ballots she has been proposing and the emergency ballots you are taking issue with then please point it out, otherwise it would be nice if we could all be on the same page. It seems disastrous for Progressive Democrats if we have various progressive factions moving in opposite directions: the Boxer camp pushing one thing, Friedman and his blog following pushing for something else, and then you coming along starting another movement which seems to be saying that all this is no better than to leave electronic voting alone for now. Pardon me for wondering if there might be some moderate, compromising motives behind all this.

[galloglas]

75. Oh, Shit !

You said: well in order to have a legitimate election

the Republicans votes have to be counted fairly too."


I just knew there would be catch in this somewhere!

Damnation!

[Land Shark]

82. Bummer, isn't it??? : )

[symbolman]

47. THANK YOU

for posting this.

I spent a YEAR making a film about electronic voting and interviewed some of the TOP people in the field and I can say without a doubt that THIS is how we will LOSE.

Paper is exactly what the right wing WANTS, it goes BYE BYE SO easily, or is not counted.

Here's how she works folks. The electronic votes will in each "neck and neck" race (and if you notice they ALL SEEM TO BE "neck and neck" How odd) will count the votes in such a manner that the total will fall BELOW the legal CAUSE to RECOUNT. At that point all the PAPER will be thrown away, provisionals FIRST.

This is how they do it every time. "SORRY we cannot LEGALLY open this for a recount since there is only a 3% difference."

PERIOD.

We interviewed the former Democratic Gov of Alabama, and he went to bed as the WINNER of the election and woke up the LOSER. HOW? In the very dead of Night, in the Baldwin County courthouse RIELLY and his den of thieves kicked ALL Poll workers and Media OUT and electronically moved 6500 votes from his opponents column to his OWN. NO OTHER Totals changed in the entire state.

They Blamed it on a lightning strike in an area where there were not even 6500 VOTERS to switch, and if a computer gets a power surge it DOES NOT move votes. It crashes and dies.

THIS was the primordial and primitive way, and led the way for more sophisticated theft.

When Rielly's oponent sought a recount the DA simply REFUSED to open the ballot 'box' for a recount, the catch? Catch 22.

"We cannot open the Ballot Box to prove there was irregularities unless you prove there were irregularities" which could only be proven by opening the Ballot Box.

Cute. And you don't think the Alabama swamps are FULL of votes? All PAPER. They find them in trunks of police cars there, storage units, etc.

This is NOT the way. If you want someone you can trust on this subject read anything by Mark Crispin Miller or Congressman Conyers.

DO NOT listen to Bev Harris as she has proved herself on this board and others, and be wary of anyone who promotes her in any fashion - there are many out there with ego driven agendas who are NOT helping this movement.

So vote early and vote often (that's a joke, son) :)

Once again THANK YOU for posting this, and doing such a great job.

[Land Shark]

50. I disagree slightly in that there will be tremendous pressure on ALL

elections systems regardless of form, it's the nature of the beast. So paper will have it's share of pressures and paper with CHECKS AND BALANCES (which is the REAL issue) is quite wide open to fraud. Electronic voting by its very structure lacks important checks and balances. (I trust you know these quite well).

But your general point that the artificially enhanced margin in the original electronic count is then used in a "why bother" justification for never counting the rest of the paper is well taken. It can also be a corrupt "why bother" justification....

Electronic voting of course pays off the criminal much more handsomely than nonelectronic and that is why the capabilities for cheating in this day and age are unprecedented.

[kpete]

57. kick for truth

[vanboggie]

60. Oh damn, but thanks Landshark Big K&R

Thank you for all you're doing, Landshark, and thanks for pointing out the pitfalls. The bastards will cheat any way they can.


:kick:

[Land Shark]

70. need to keep our eyes open no matter which way we go

and the few people who take exception to my post will now i think be preparing themselves for the possibility that they will need to sustain efforts long past election day and suffer depressed returns on election night, which I don't think they were fully anticipating before, so discussion is good. It's not like there aren't advantages to paper ballots but to act strategically in a wise way we have to know the ups and the downs of the terrain as a whole.

[yowzayowzayowza]

61. Concur.

K&R #50

[Mnemosyne]

63. I am concerned about the swearing in of candidates

without certification; as Hassturd did with Busby/Bilbray.

"There will be plenty of time for the Republicans to fire up lawyers to stop the democratic "comeback" as results continue to drip in based on provisionals, absentees, and emergency ballots...."

Do you feel this is a valid concern Paul?

Thanks for all you do! :toast:

[Land Shark]

71. In CA 50 they took so long to count there was definitely time to litigate

like in the quote above. I think they were dragging their feet given how few ballots were counted on some days...

[Mnemosyne]

78. Can they pull this again or are enough

people observing closely enough it shouldn't happen again? Has it happened historically? As I understand there must be some precedent for them to have gotten away with it.

Don't mean to seem dense, but when it happened I got chills.

[FourScore]

65. As always, Paul, this is right on target.

It sounds like the only way paper ballots would work is if they were mandatory for all voters. Interesting.

[HardRocker05]

67. this is the problem w/ "paper trails" as well; it relies on a *recount* to

get the true result of the election, and as we know it can be very difficult to get a legitimate recount in repuke controlled areas, and also one has to overcome the initial public perception of a repuke victory on election night. the only answer is paper ballots, hand counted in public.

[Land Shark]

72. yeah CA 50 stands for the proposition that recounts and audits

even if you have them can easily be something that is stonewalled, and even if not stonewalled you may have a swearing in followed by a jurisdictional motion if there's a federal race involved.

Plus, even when recounts work perfectly, they will give you a stuffed recount if the ballot box is stuffed no matter how many times you recount the stuffed ballot box.

[lonestarnot]

74. kick.

[emlev]

77. The slowly counted votes in CA-50 were DRE & OP-SCAN counted

So it's not necessarily true that DRE results will be available on election night.

Also, I want to point out that the "requirement" that emergency paper ballots be provided to any voter who requests one is from Susan Lapsley's letter to California Registrars of Voters and doesn't apply in other states. (The letter that went out yesterday to all 50 Governors, Secretaries of State and Election Directors did not even have the power to "require" anything; if its provisions were to be considered requirements, then counting the EPB votes election night would also be required.)

I'm also wary of anything she agrees to regarding election systems, given our history with her already.

I agree with many of your points, particularly the need for us all to be prepared to work at least as hard after election day as we're working before it.

[Land Shark]

81. basically all votes were paper ballots opscanned since DREs were

for disabled voters only, a couple/three thousand votes out of $160K votes (from memory, but close to these figures).

While it's possible that a rare frozen DRE might not yield its votes for a while, on average they are much faster than paper ballots counted either by hand or by opscan -- we can't really deny that on the average. So, in the typical case, we will be dealing with an actual or potential lag inteh counting of emergencies -- and you can count on ROV Haas in CA 50 dragging his feet on the emergencies and trying to use that to force a concession by Busby, or perhaps not ever having to finish all the counts if they candidate concedes. If candidates aren't aware of the numbers working this way, they may inappropriately concede. EXIT POLLS should therefore ask what kind of ballot each voter used so candidates have this intelligence info!

[emlev]

84. And candidates need education about not conceding or declaring victory

Do the Diebold op-scams count ballots as they're put into the machines? The Sequoia op-scams my county is using do. The voter puts the ballot into the machine, it's spit back out if it's too wrinkled or there's an overvote or other reason for spoilage, or it's counted. At close of polls, a tape is printed out with the totals on it.

[lonestarnot]

80. kick

[AtomicKitten]

86. Congress was dismissed before the Pelosi-Dodd

emergency paper ballot measure was entertained. Are you saying the states are doing his on their own?

I just saw Donna Brazille on CSPAN with the Voting Rights Institute conference discussing with Bush folk and others election fraud, glossing over electronic voting machine fraud, instead focusing on intimidation, ID, felons voting, absentee ballots, etc., all important in the bigger scheme of things, but the EVM fraud remains unchecked.

Tell me, Mr. Shark, can you advise people state-by-state the best way to vote?

[Starfury]

87. Man, I never even thought about this aspect.... k&r!!!

Thank you for airing this!

(like I wasn't already having enough trouble falling asleep tonight... :yoiks: )

[eomer]

88. Hey Paul, I tend to agree with you on this.

Although I'm not sure at all how this will all play out. Maybe the added chaos caused by EPBs will be the tipping point that leads to a massive, ground-up overhaul, which is what we really need.

Of course, in the meantime we desperately need to win a majority or two, and EPBs could be the reason we lose some of those races. Even if there is no fraud or legalistic trickery just legitimate spoilage rates alone (the combined spoilage of EPBs and absentees) could make us lose all the close ones. Neither EPBs nor absentees will have the benefit of precinct-based scanning so you could lose a percentage point or so right off the bat.

[Festivito]

89. I must disagree also. CONs will fight regardless. I rather have paper.

We need our vote on paper. With backup/emergency paper ballots, yes, the media might ignore them and attempt to call the election based on the computer vote. BUT, this means the media would ignore a close election also. The paper way, we have paper to argue over, the no-paper way, we have only computer scientists' conjecture versus CON perception management.

I'll take the paper.

We won the SCOTUS battle in 2000. They only gave two hours to count the vote. If they are destined to cheat, I'd want the paper ballots. If for nothing else, so that U-Chicago can count them.

If ballots are photo-copied, fine. Each poll worker should have a stamp and ink of their own that can be scientifically traced beyond the simple personal design of stamp -- on paper.

Yes, many ballots will be lost due to instructions not followed. The reversal of votes will be worse. Paper is better. ASIDE: voters should be able to print their own vote and turn it in, a computer program correcting such potential mistakes.

YES, CONs favor paper. They want to insure they can invalidate paper later. Fight them. Now.

The paper SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED should the number of paper ballots not be enough to change the outcome. This is just from simple mathematics, and is not the reason ballots will be uncounted. We need to deal with the cheating no matter where it exists, on paper or on magnets.

You're wrong. The upcoming election is not "locked in". Paper is viable. Your notion of "magic bullets" is not substantiative, it is hyperbolic rhetoric.

Yes, RepubliCONs may make this ugly. They may draw out the counting process that could take three days into three weeks. SO WHAT? Would you rather tyranny or to fight with guns and bombs? Not me!

Paper. Readable. Retainable. Secure, more so than any vote not visible at all times such as those inside a computer.