Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I think I have seen everything.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:06 PM
Original message
I think I have seen everything.
In my 61 years on this planet, I thought I had seen most things.

I have been married and divorced. I have children and have seen a child die. I have grandchildren and have seen a grandchild die. I watched my Mother suffer with Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimers disease and dementia for years before passing away in 2005.

I have spent 16 miserable days on a troopship from Oakland, California to Da Nang, Viet Nam.

I witnessed Tet of 1968 up close and personal.

In April 1970, I was in a forward base camp 100 meters inside the Cambodian border.

I have learned to fly a helicopter, shoot a 4.2 mortar, repair teletype machines, high frequency and tactical radios, land mine detectors and pretty much everything in between.

I have teed off a round of golf at midnight in Tronheim, Norway.

I was at the 1972 Olympics in Munich when the unthinkable happened.

Today I have been listening to the Senate debate about redefining Common Article Three of the Geneva Convention and revocation of habeas corpus. I have watched Senators argue that secret trials and secret evidence is good.

Today our values may be time warped to pre-1215 values.

I just cant get my brain around what is being done to our dignity today. I can truthfully say I think I have seen everything.

Something is really, really wrong here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Welcome to the Dark Ages.
2.0
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
67. Don't forget your candles. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank You!
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. recommended /nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. You have most certainly seen and done more than many many
of us here. But I, like you, don't understand any of this. It was our decency once that forced a corrupt administration (one of several in a row) to halt the occupation of a foreign country and quit killing its people. But there was Look and Life Magazines. The people were forced to see what they were supporting, what they were morally responsible for.

Not now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's frightening, isn't it?
We have become them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rnisson Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
85. horrid truth
the only answer is that all man are capable of such things, and the potential for evil exists within us all.
Arrogance and denial were the path, and now look where we are...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. My wife and I both raised our right hands and swore to uphold the
Constitution.

What the fuck for? These bastards have wiped their ass with the basis for our law.

I used to ask my wife what she think we'd do if a truck of soldiers rolled into our neighborhood and asked us to come along with them. We discussed our options, whether or not we'd resist, if they'd off me (the disabled vet in a wheelchair) or what.

Now I think that if a truck of soldiers rolled into our neighborhood, they'd be there to ask us to join them in "upholding the Constitution."

Fuck me. I never thought I'd see America turn out like this.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spuddonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you for saying that...
I was lying in bed last night on the verge of tears, enraged, asking my husband how this could be happening? Our country is dying!

Thank you for making me feel like I'm not losing my mind...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Unfortunately,I think there is
much more ugliness in our future :scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. Not so fast
Bush still has two years to rape and brutalize. We can only hope that we've seen the worst of it, but I admit that I'm not optimistic in this regard...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. NEVER think you've seen the worst of Bush.
He will always go lower.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yep,,,,and with a record and a history like yours, in these times, you are
...a prime candidate for Swiftboating!!

Watch out....they'll be coming after you with their buckets of paint and their "soft on terra" paintbrushes!!!!

Papers.....papers!!! Let me see your PAPERS!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Stick Around.....
There's plenty more to come, I'm sure.

Lots of good times ahead.

LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Not quite everything
It traumatizes me to even speak the words, but there is one horror we've been spared.
We haven't seen Chimpy in a speedo..
Seriously, they do seem to desire a new golden age of darkness.
Keep those martial skills fresh unhappy camper.
We may need you to teach or practice them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
47. unfortunately...


It's worse than you thought
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. You have lived an amazing life. I admire and commend you.
I have almost 20 years on you and haven't experienced anything close to what you have during your lifetime. You are absolutely right--something is terribly wrong in this country you served so well. Apparently it is now going to be expected that our military engage in the torture of their fellow human beings. Un-freaking-believable!

I am struggling to keep the faith. May we do all we can to extricate ourselves from this nightmare.

Blessings.

Tired Old Cynic
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm 56 and have seen my share of things
What is happening today, this week, in this country, is not without precedent in the world (I'm thinking of 1939 Germany), but it utterly without precedent in this country.

This isn't some small issue or even a very large and significant issue.

The heart and soul of this country have been removed today and this country is now nothing more than a Frankenstein monster lurching its way into the future, with no moral compass, with flag waving, fundamentalist cheerleaders egging it on its rampage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
92. K&R!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thank you for sharing yourself here.
I'm right there with you - State of Confusion, USA :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wagthedogwar Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. General Strike called October 5, 2006...a time to stir!
"When my country, into which I had just set my foot, was set on fire about my ears, it was time to stir. It was time for every man to stir."
--Thomas Paine, Common Sense


http://www.worldcantwait.net /

A General Strike is called for October 5!
No work, no school, no driving, no shopping, no TV!
A day of demonstration, fasting, meditation and prayer.
Save Habeas Corpus! Stand up for Liberty & Justice.

Organize or join a group in your local community here:
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&t...

If your local community is not on the list, organize one. Post it on the site and call or visit your local library to have them help you organize local unions, schools, churches and democratic groups. Have each one organize demonstrations, teach-ins, meditations and prayer vigils.

Who knows? you might end up having the time of your life!
Do this! America will thank you. Your children will thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Thanks. I'll be participating in Ft. Lauderdale with a group of friends.
:patriot: :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I'm in the area. I'll be there too.
I hope that DUers will get together.

--IMM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
68. I'll put a DU bumper sticker on my sign.
Maybe something like that will help us all identify each other. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. I will keep an eye out.
I always look forward to meeting DUers.

--IMM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yy4me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sixty Four and counting....I think I've seen some pretty awful
stuff but this government takes the cake. As I review what these past few years have brought us, I shudder, good grief, what will my grandchildren face. I, like most of us, am frustrated and angry. We worked so hard to get where we are as a nation and this administration is taking it all away. Not only should we be afraid, the whole world should be also. We've gone mad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks from another grandpa and vet.

It's almost like we were raised with one set of values and now this president is overthrowing them without even a backward look. I almost wonder if the basic oaths will be changed next.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. Now you get to witness the New Dark Ages.
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 02:28 PM by Swamp Rat
Hey, maybe with all your skills amd experience you could learn to use a trebuchet for the upcoming Crusades.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I've thought all along that the Iraq business

sounded like the Crusades of history. Who knew that we were marching marching backward in so many ways in 6 short years?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Sharpen your sword and prepare for the draft.


Or start learning another language and update your passport.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. You mean they're gonna draft me AGAIN?

Oh, yeah, we have to fight them over there so they won't be over here. Henry Kissinger says so. (Sorry, running over with sarcasm today.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. If you have the required skill set, then yes it is very possible.
I can't find it, but I saw a photo of a 68 yr old who was recalled into service.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
20. And what's more, most Americans don't seem to have a clue what
is happening. AMAZING. FUCKING AMAZING.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. You are so right...
So many of my neighbors don't have a clue. But I tell them everything I know.

One guy calls me "Kathy Downer".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. You silly Kathy!
Worrying about the Constitution! Worrying about innocent people being disappeared! Who got kicked off "Survivor" is SO MUCH more important. Lighten up!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm 61 as well.
I can't believe what's been done to my country in five short years. I never thought I'd live to see the day when U. S. senators would think that torture is acceptable. I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe. I'm beyond digusted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. I understand completely. Torture? Habeas Corpus? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. Completely with you.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. Don't forget what you learned in 'Nam.
You may need to use it to survive (again).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
specimenfred1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. We've had 100 years of steady, strong propaganda
Now it's taken as truth whether it's gov't or corporate. Disney acts are promoted as "stars". Gov't lies are promoted as "truth". Everything is promoted, is about being promoted, is a product and is wrapped up in a package and sold to Americans.

Greed got the best of us and now we must pay. The last time it happened was 1929. Ohhhhh "but it can't happen now", "all the breakers are in place", "we're smarter now".

We know it's about to blow, frikken torture is even accepted by the dumbed-down masses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. The scary thing is - only WE seem to care.
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wagthedogwar Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. that's why you must lead--because you care.
it's up to you to act, others will follow.

Organize your local community for the October 5th General Strike.
If it feels like too much for you, start at your local library--it's amazing how much librarians know and care for America.

here's a good starting point:
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&t...

just find your locality or post it, then go to the library and start the ball rolling.

it's up to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. The Senate just crowned Junior King, or Emperer, or whatever
he prefers.

It won't be long now.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
31. How right you are
Many people within this very community have no idea what is happening, and honestly believe pulling a lever for a different mannequin in Novemeber will stop it.

The house is on fire while we sit with a roomful of matches and wonder what color to paint the living room.

We are broken - totally, completely broken down. Democracy is an illusion, and the phrase opposition party brings howls of laughter from anyone who takes an honest look around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
michaelpush Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. What else is new?
Oh I think we are a Republic not a Democracy....remember ROME?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
32. Everybody better join in the festivities on October 5
with or without a permit. And mean it this time.

That's all I can say.
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&t...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
35. New Name for Bush
I know that we have nickname bush everything from chimp to devil.
But I think the best nickname that any of us can give him after his torture bill is "VLAD THE IMPALER"...Nothing hits the nail on the head better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
82. Der Fuerher? (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. The Magna Carta is just a quaint document
:puke:

Damn that makes me sick just joking about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Radio_Lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
78. Look at it as only "a comma" in the history of the people of this world.
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 06:37 PM by Radio_Lady
That's what the Chimpster wants us to believe.

Ed Schultz was on fire today (Friday, September 29th) on Air America Radio. He said that taking away the right of "habeas corpus" was tantamount to removing one of the bricks in the foundation upon which our country was built. I'm the daughter of a lawyer, but I had to go here: http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm -- to remember what it all means.

(If I believed in) God save us all.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
38. I share your feelings about what is happening...
..and yes, something is really, really wrong here ;(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
40. Something is really, really wrong here.
"I just can’t get my brain around what is being done to our dignity today."

Neither can I, yet I can't count how many of these days there have been. All I know is that every time I think I've seen it all, they go and top it. It just goes on and on, and we've got 2 more years of this emperor alone. America is not going to react. There's something terribly wrong. The only thing I can think to call it is "learned helplessness." Once you find out you can't control something, most folks stop trying. Only boneheads like us don't seem to adapt to the new reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stardust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
88. I was thinking ealier today, that after the Oct. 5 rally, that's itI...
I'm through with caring. Would that it were so easy...I'll probably still be back here fuming with DU, but it's soooooo discouraging. I don't know how much more I can take.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thank you for your perspective.
This will not stand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
44. Unhappy camper, you made it to the Daou Report at salon.com!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onecent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
46. I have 61 years on this planet also, and I totally agree with you.
Why won't I wake up?

I wish there was a place I could post to tell NON-american countries that I DO NOT SUPPORT OUR GOVERNMENT.

It's SO FUCKING SAD....every day, I log on to the internet and I feel we (the good guys) are getting fucked, without dinner.

Sad state of affairs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
49. I think you should send this as a LTTE to the NYT
:kick: & recommend!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
50. What have they done to the beautiful idea of America?
I'm afraid we ain't seen nothin' yet -They're just getting started.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
51. These truly are Oilwellian times
America, RIP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
52. Thank you, sir,
for saying what so many of us are thinking. :thumbsup:

Recommendation No. 76.

:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
53. In the spirit of bipartisan support for a "war time" president...
YEAs ---65 (of whome the following joined the Republicans)

Carper (D-DE)
Johnson (D-SD)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Connonym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
54. The sound you hear is the hearts of true patriots breaking n/m
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cheesloaf Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
55. Magna Whata?
I believe that's what Bush calls the fishwrapper from 1215.

Sobering post!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. Shhhh! In Bu$hworld you cannot discuss the AgnaMay ArtaCay.
Shh...or it's off to Gitmo for you. :hi:

On a serious note, it chills the soul that bush has two more years to completely destroy the truths that we hold self evident.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
56. Yes, something is really, really wrong, * and his admin are wrong.
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
57. It's the same thing wrong that was wrong in Germany 1933
Let us all prasy it doesn;t get that bad in the end. Oh, it's going to be bad, but hopefully not THAT bad.

We WILL have the slave labor camps for Muslims and Liberals, but hopefully they will only be engaging in brutality and totrture and rape, NOT industrial-quantity killing.

Hooray.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
58. You know how lucky I am to know you? Wicked Lucky!
No matter what, you and I can say we did something...
We tried!

Loveyou Man!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. Massachusetts activists rock
I know you guys are hurting today just as we are here in Minnesota following the disastrous display of treason yesterday in Washington D.C.

If nothing else, we have tried and we will keep trying.

We have the Right scared of us now.
Please check out this account by Lakeville Dad following our protests at Coleman's and Rep. Kline's office yesterday morning. Kline was a co-sponsor of the House Torture Bill.

It was Lakeville Dad's first protest. The account is funny and sad at the same time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
"You keep a knockin'
but you can't come in"

Okay, I promised something lighter sometime this week and here it is. Please finish this story before clicking on the link to the Abu Grhaib photos, as that will spoil the mood.

I should have known we wouldn't be welcome when a police car was waiting for us when we arrived at the parking lot of Congressman Kline's office at 7 am. Someone had obviously called him, as we'd just rolled in and nobody had yet pulled a sign out of their car or anything.

The policeman told us that if we parked in the building's parking lot, the Congressman's office could have our cars towed, as it was private property. I asked him if they would have to ask us to leave first, and he allowed as how the lot wasn't posted, they would have to. Since the lot was nearly empty, we took our chances.

This was the first protest I'd ever been at -- thought I better do it now while it's still legal -- couple more elections and who knows?! I had imagined it would be a big group of riled up people -- but it was a very small group of old-time peaceniks -- they told me this was pretty typical, always only a handful of them. Kinda felt like they were just showing up for work, letting people know that there is another way. Several of them made mention of how as Christians it was their duty to speak out on issues such as this. They weren't overly concerned with the upcoming election, they were there for the issue.

We eventually grew to a small, polite group of seven -- a Veteran, a folksinger, a female pastor, a children's book writer (me!) and three other women -- who stood out in the cold for two hours this morning holding signs to the delighted honking and thumbs up to the people who agreed with us and rolled-down windows and "F*** you" and "Get a life" from the ones that didn't. We smiled and waved politely to either reaction. The positives were about 10 to one over the negatives, although the vast majority just drove by. That wasn't so strange, but I was pleasantly suprised at how many people were happy to see us. And they ranged from burly men in huge trucks to soccer moms with vans full of kids.

I hadn't even brought a sign, as I was just there to film what went on to cover it for the blog, but so few people were there that I soon abandoned my camera and held a sign that said Tell Kline to say NO to torture." Had some nice chats with kids on their way to school, an older woman who was walking to a friends house and a businessman walking to work.

Here's the issue we were out to raise awareness of:

Rep. Kline co-sponsored a bill, passed by the House yesterday, that retroactively makes all the torture done in places like Abu Ghrab and elsewhere just okey-dokey:

"The legislation that will re-interpret Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions includes a provision making the rewritten law retroactive to 9/11/01. Why? Its been decided by the Supreme Court that the practices of the Bush administration are illegal. Abu Ghraib, Guantanomo, secret CIA prisons, and extraordinary rendition may be punishable as war crimes."

If you have a strong stomach, you can click here to see photo of Iraquis that were abused by U.S. personnel. But after the rest of the story, please.

We were holding our signs on the street corners nearest Kline's District Office. At about 9:10 am we left our signs in the parking lot and walked in and knocked on the door of the congressional office.

The door was locked. One of our group stooped down and looked in the mail slot and could see the legs of a woman who was standing off to the side. We knocked several more times, called through the closed door and the mail slot that we were constituents from Burnsville, Apple Valley and Lakeville who only wanted to drop off a letter and talk to a staff member about the issue.

The building's leasing manager came and told us it was private property and to leave. By this point it was really funny as we knew people were in there, but they were pretending they weren't there. I think it was the Veteran that mused something about the bravery of the "big, tough marine's staff."

There is more than a bit of irony in the "locked door" of the Congressman with a locked mind. With a 98 percent partisan voting record, I guess there really is no reason for his office to be open -- he's not going to listen to anyone other than the "Commander-in-Chief" anyway. If you go to his campaign Web site, there's not a lick there about any issues -- the less he talks about what he actually does in Washington, the more likely he is to be re-elected.

Half of our group left, but three of us went downstairs to the Kline campaign office where we had a brief discussion with staffers Marcus Esmay and Donna Bratlie -- who both recognized me by sight even though I'd never laid eyes on either of them before. They said they had no connection or information on the Congressional office, and if they locked us out that "is their business." It was a polite but non-productive chat -- the situation was now so amusing that we couldn't have been mad if we'd wanted to be.

HERE'S THE PAYOFF FOR READING THIS STORY

So the three of us remaining decided to check the Congressional office one more time before leaving the building, and so we climbed back up the flight of stairs. The door was still locked, but this time a piece of cardboard had been taped over the mail slot from the inside.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
59. Your post starts to hint at the gravity of a plight I never thought I
would see in my lifetime. Hold on tight to everything you believe. It is going to be a bumpy ride.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Call Me Wesley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
60. Thank you for posting this.
K & R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
61. You said it well, friend
Something is really wrong when pros and cons of torture is debated as matter-of-fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
62. It's name is self-hate...
and tyranny is a means of fulfilling it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
64. I think the worst is yet to come.........
There is no end to the madness that has been going on for the last 5 years. We as a nation are slipping into exactly what we are supposed to be fighting against. Bush is a villain that continues his assault on the Constitution and the American people. Iran is looming on the horizon.....we might not have troops but we do have planes and bombs and the madman in the White House is hell bent on using them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
65. Kudos for the post.
It's good to discuss the gravity of our situation.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
66. We are seeing what happens when an extreme RW cabal seizes
control of all levers of power of government and the media and push their agenda on a venal, boot-licking, lock stepping and genuflecting Congress and a goodly portion of Amerikans are eat up with ideology and religiosity or otherwise have their heads in the sand or stuck up their own asses all the while a RW-dominated Supreme Court relishes their handiwork of December 2000, saying this is good, this is good. Long live the King.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
70. K & R. 101st vote for Greatest Page.
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
72. "Something is really, really wrong here."
Indeed it is. I, too, am a VERY UNHAPPY CAMPER!!

"Hello, Mudda... Hello Fadda...
Here I am at... Camp Granade...
Camp is very... entertaining...
And they say we'll have some fun when it stops raining."

We have, by no means, seen "everything" yet. Call me Cassandra if you must, I called it at 8, again at 10, was DELIGHTED to have been apparently "proven wrong" in the early 60's; we did round tables about Eisenhower's Farewell Speech, he said it ALL OUT LOUD. But then "THEY" snuffed JFK. Once Reagan was elected it was clear that "Mockingbird," think tanks and their minions would have their way. Clinton did QUITE WELL serving a people who in the face of an "invisible T-Rex" HAD NO CHANCE due to their OWN ignorance. I'm outta Dodge, but often do look back and weep bitterly. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IWantAChange Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. And this is only the beginning...
If the Administration can keep a majority in Congress and neuter the Judiciary can anyone honestly say they aren't afraid of what might happen next? As silly as it sounds I look to someone like the ex-sportscaster Keith Olbermann to actually speak for those of us who are willing to say "Enough is Enough - this is my country and you are NOT going to ruin it."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
74. You ain't seen nothin' yet.
I hate that that lyric popped into my head after reading your post, but it did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
75. Thanks, I share your deep dread and amazement.
DemEx
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
76. I'm 56, too fat and diabetic
But I WILL NOT get on my knees for these bastards. "Your status in hell is determined by the size of the honor guard you take with you." is my motto at this point. I may get buried but I won't be "disappeared"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mistahkleeen Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
77. What is this crap
What kind of govenment is this? Where are the damn checks and balances. Torture is ok? WTF
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
79. First of all Sir, Thank you for your service
And you certainly have had a varied and interesting, if somewhat unfortunate, life. I cannot speak for you, but I think most veterans must truly believe deep in their hearts, if not openly, that this is just wrong. That you, and all other members of the military service did not fight for what is happening today. Once again, thank you very much for your service to this once great land and thank you for this post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rrasile Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Yes me to
you remind me of hundreds of guys I've known during my sixty plus years on this earth and all I have to add to your story is that for some reason to me it never matter what party they belonged to. The records will show that the party of chicken hawks was the party that found it helpful to separate the American Voters with made up stories and solid bull shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
80. Neocons: building a bridge to the twelfth century. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
83. I spent 18 days on a troop ship
that left Oakland in 1967. We stopped at Subic Bay in the Philippines and four days later landed at Vung Tau. Two weeks later we were in the field on the eastern border of the Iron Triangle. Everyday after that just melted into the next one. Tet was an eye opener to say the least, as sleeping for more than two hours was not an option.
We took an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Does the current junta meet the criteria for domestic enemy? I'm waiting for the orders.
The retired military officers who testified before Senate Democrats earlier this week stated the obvious. Our last hope may be a disgruntled military seizing temporary power until a legitimate government can be installed and free and fair elections determine who leads us.
Now I have less hair and more stomach than I did when I landed on the sunny shores of Vietnam, but if necessary I will squeeze into the fatigues that once hung on me like a cheap suit.

"And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he today that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap while any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

For those of us who defended the Constitution with our lives it is not just "a God damned piece of paper" Mr. Bush. It is not the toilet paper Antonin Scalia made it when he issued a stay blocking the Florida recount on specious grounds that put you in office illegally. It is the foundation of all the laws our legislators have ever passed.

If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?

Some how, some way, we will right the ship of state that is now being piloted by two convicted drunk drivers.
At least I'll be able to tell my grandchildren I defended the Constitution. I didn't cut and run like a chickenhawk Repunklican.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #83
93. Right on Wiz, right on...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
84. Here are some words of wisdom and comfort
Go placidly amid the noise and waste,
And remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Avoid quiet and passive persons unless you are in need of sleep.
Rotate your tires.

Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself,
And heed well their advice, even though they be turkeys.
Know what to kiss and when.
Consider that two wrongs never make a right,
But that three lefts do.

Wherever possible put people on "HOLD".
Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment,
And despite the changing fortunes of time,
There is always a big future in computer maintenance.
Remember the Pueblo.

Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate.
Know yourself. If you need help, call the FBI.
Exercise caution in your daily affairs,
Especially with those persons closest to you;
That lemon on your left for instance.

Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls,
Would scarcely get your feet wet.
Fall not in love therefore; it will stick to your face.

Carefully surrender the things of youth: birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan,
And let not the sands of time get in your lunch.
For a good time, call 606-4311.

Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog
Is finally getting enough cheese;
And reflect that whatever fortunes may be your lot,
It could only be worse in Sioux City.

You are a fluke of the Universe.
You have no right to be here, and whether you can hear it or not,
The Universe is laughing behind your back.

Therefore make peace with your God whatever you conceive him to be,
Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin.

With all its hopes, dreams, promises, and urban renewal,
The world continues to deteriorate.
Give up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Deterirota
National Lampoon's Radio Dinner
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. YUP!
:D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mwar Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
89. I've been thinking about these lyrics all day...
I Won't Back Down
Tom Petty

Well I won't back down, no I won't back down
you could stand me up at the gates of hell
but I won't back down

Gonna stand my ground, won't be turned around
and I'll keep this world from draggin' me down
gonna stand my ground and I won't back down

Chorus

Hey baby, there ain't no easy way out
hey I will stand my ground
and I won't back down


Well I know what's right, I got just one life
in a world that keeps on pushin' me around
but I'll stand my ground and I won't back down


Hey baby there ain't no easy way out
hey I will stand my ground
and I won't back down
No, I won't back down


_______________________________________________________________________

This can only come to an end by our hands, but first they need to see our fists in the air.
This will not stand.
We won't back down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corporatemedia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Or as Woody sang ....
"Nobody living can ever stop me,
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back,
This land was made for you and me."

- Woody Guthrie

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/biography.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Boondog Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
91. Do you not know that the world has changed?
I read your entry at work and though I share none of your personal experiences, I share your feelings as expressed in the introduction and conclusion. I wrote the following diatribe, of sorts, in response. It's responsive in an essential way, I think.

The question begged is what the fuck is going on and the answer is simple. The World has Changed.

It's the rationale we hear over and over, as the justification for dismantling our system of justice at least. There may still be an edifice out there that looks like down-home flag-waving made-in-the-USA capital-J in-quotes "Justice." . But the stone is cracked and honeycombed, and many of its rooms are sparsely occupied, the doors closed, signs saying "USA - love it or get the fuck out, or in as the case may be (a cell at Gitmo).

As if somehow having the right to be confronted by one's accusers and the evidence against you, and the hearsay rule, and all the rules of evidence designed to enhance the RELIABILITY of evidence, are somehow a favor we do for "Americans" only. An idea that "Justice," somehow, is a true act of altruism, a gift we give only to those people deserving of it. Only for Americans. We may love to hate our accused child molesters, mass murderers, and rapists, but they are "Americans," by God! The insurgents aren't Americans, and Mr. Lott reminded us today that these look-alikes barely qualify as humans after all.

NO JUSTICE FOR YOU, get the fudge out of line, do not ask again for at least 4 years, and we have a place you can spend those years - a place that's more defensible against our own citizens than just about any other place in the world.

The world has really changed if so many people never learned that the dispensation of justice to others is a beautiful gift we give to ourselves, including all those inconvenient rules that generations of human experience have shown enhance reliable evidence. Why is reliability so important? I know. But it doesn't matter how many times people have pointed out that torture produces unreliable evidence, that the confrontation clause is there for a very very good reason, and that we should pay really close attention to hearsay rules and the messages behind them. And it doesn't matter that there are no examples, NONE, of the judgment of history saying, "the systematic denial of justice and use of torture by that regime was really a good thing."

I also ask, unhappycamper, just how did the world change so that the denial of habeas corpus and use of torture against "others" will, this time, be the right thing? Justice, as another quaint concept, joining the Geneva conventions in Gonzales' circular file?

Though fightin' words may be needed these days, so are educational words. Education is essential. There are so many people that don't understand why it is that torture and star chamber civil procedure insure only one outcome - injustice (with a good dollop of tragedy, grief, suffering, and horror thrown in)... obviously for those on the wrong side of the fence, but also, and essentially, on the other.

So if justice is for us only, whoever us may be at the time, then retribution must have taken the place of justice in the confused and fearful American pantheon of values, at least for now. Retribution, the self-perpetuating cycle, until, until what? Until the job is done, according to occupation forces in the US.

I hope its exhausting for the Ws to keep up the fight on so many fronts. Thanks for the thoughtful entry. And here's wishing you peace, and justice for a change.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
94. Amen Brother, Amen ...n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
95. Kick.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-02-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
96. I never, in my life, thought that the discussion of "legalizing"
torture would EVER be a part of this nation's legacy.

I am appalled that BOTH of my Senators, Hagel (R), and Nelson (D) would vote for this disaster.

I expected the idiot Fortenberry from my district to vote for it, he's a cowardly little snotwad anyway.
But to think that Hagel, a veteran, and Nelson, a D would even contemplate such an abomination is beyond me.

This will be challenged in the USSC, but the very notion that ANY member of either house would even consider this as something "necessary" shows me that the barbarian nature of humanity is alive and well.

Fear...the only thing the R's have, has once again ruled the day.

We must all fight to get Congress back in line with TRUE American values.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Jun 26th 2019, 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC