Will The Democrats Lose Their Soul On The Torture "Compromise"?

[Radicalman]

In yesterday's “compromise” on torture, made between Junior Bush and the three republican senators, the 3 former dissenters officially endorsed unrestricted torture in secret prisons, in unknown places, for unknown people. Then the tortured victims can now be brought before a secret kangaroo court where their appointed attorneys can review meaningless evidence. What a compromise this is! Whether McCain, Warner, and Graham represent the whole U.S. Senate remains to be seen.

The “compromise” would eliminate the right of any alien, who is in US custody outside the US, or who "has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant," to file for habeas corpus, thus ending 800 years of Anglo-American jurisprudence and one of the most important individual rights in any legal system.

The “compromise” eliminates the right of any such alien to take any legal action against "the United States or its agents" concerning the conditions of his or her detention, other than to appeal the results of Civilian Status Review Commissions or military tribunals. There would be no appeal allowed to the American judicial system.

Finally, the “compromise” changes the definition of war crimes: currently, any conduct that violates Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions counts as a war crime; the draft bill changes this to "a grave breach of common Article 3". And the lawyers can argue what constitutes a “grave breach” from here til doomsday without coming to a conclusion.

The ACLU’s Washington Office, speaking on the “compromise," sums it up: "The proposal would make the core protections of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions irrelevant and unenforceable. It deliberately provides a 'get out of jail free card' to the administration's top torture officials, and backdates that card nine years.”

Without going into the sad details, The United States has sometimes been nation of torturers and has aided others in torture. But I had always thought, in terms of public policy and conversation, torture was beyond the pale, a line not to be crossed. But due to fear, encouraged and stoked for partisan political advantage by the party without shame, the GOP, American is fast losing its character, if not its soul.

Now the question is, which Democrats, if any, in the Senate and House will say, “I don’t want the government torturing in my name!”

[brentspeak]

1. I don't know. Why don't we just wait and see instead of speculating?

[MadMaddie]

3. I would say that * made the compromise with 3 Repugs...

they didn't include any Dems in the discussion.....this is one party making the decision for the whole country....and that in itself is enough to question them...

[Radicalman]

4. With All Due Respect....

i don't think we should wait on this. It's too important. We need to contact our Senators and Representatives and try to influence them on this issue of torture. Isn't that what democracy is all about?

[BuyingThyme]

25. Hell yeah.

[LynneSin]

14. Thank you

Seriously, I haven't seen the vote and therefore I'm not going to do anything more but write my democratic senators and urge the filibuster.

Sometimes I think the democrats are just holding back making a stink because the Republicans are doing a good enough job shooting themselves in the foot. When I watch some dumbass fox screen on Maher JUSTIFYING what Bush wants claiming "It's not torture, it's Coercion and we aren't doing murder, rape or removing limbs" just absolutely disgust me. There is a shitload of torture still out there that does not do any of these 3 but can still do major harm - electrocution (not to kill but to harm), waterboarding, beating the crap out of someone, starving and probably a host of other horrible things I can think of that wouldn't "Murder, Rape or Remove Limbs" and still be torture

[Zhade]

28. At least you're proposing we do SOMETHING.

The poster you replied to somehow seems to think that just waiting and seeing what they do is enough!

[Zhade]

27. Yeah, why pressure the Dems to stand against torture?

I mean, hell, they've always come through for us before when we sit on our hands.

:sarcasm:

What a reckless stance you propose! 'Wait and see'. Ridiculous!

[MadMaddie]

2. This is what is going to happen...* and the neocons are so

hell bent on torture that they think (foolishly) that somehow the terrorist will not torture our soldiars....folks this has put a big fat red bulls eye on our troops....they not only will torture our soldiers they will film it....why aren't our Dem representives talking about this and raising hell.....

[Clarkie1]

5. Do you have a transcript of the compromise? Are these facts you post?

We need to be strong in our convictions, but at the same time we need to have all the facts before drawing conclusions.

It would be very helpful to have the text of the compromise. This is the first time I have heard of the assertion that it allows "unrestricted torture." On PBS newshour they said it would end waterboarding, but not sleep deprivation.

[Radicalman]

12. Excellent Point, Nevertheless..........

Watching PBS or reading the L.A. Times, as I do, one would never know that my interpretation of the "compromise" is correct. Interestingly, the Wall Street Journal's take on it is much closer than those two sources. I can't give you the text of the "compromise" because it would take up too much space. Too much has been written about the so called "facts" of the agreement to post here. All I can do is suggest that you do what I did. Google the term "torture compromise"+2008. Actually, my interpretation of the material is rather tame compared to some very "left wing" web sites.

I don't believe the mainstream media is authoritative on anything. Why would anyone trust them? PBS is sponsored by corporations and never has people on like Chomsky and Parenti who offer a true alternative view. I learned the English language at my Mother's knee and can read and think as well as anyone. I'm sure you can to. If you don't agree with my take on this, I'd be interested to know why. But I would stress that you shouldn't take my word or anyone else's. Asking for the text of the compromise, as you do, is very legitimate but the precise language, as far as I know, isn't available. But the sources, as untrustworthy as they may be, seem to be in agreement about what it is. Of course, the interpretation varies. We all have to do the best we can, and I'm satisfied that my conclusions are reasonably accurate. This is not the time to err on the side of caution, in my opinion.

I got the "facts," such as they are, and drew my own conclusions. You can do the same. Please let us know what you think. But this is not the moment for postponing research. When it comes to an issue of this magnitude, it is not the time for equivocation and timidity which, I'm sorry to say, is the "liberals" Achilles Heel. It's time for action. When the country is burning down it's no time for fiddling around. Good luck in your research endeavors. It takes time, energy, and thought but coming to one's own conclusions, without relying on alleged "authorities" is most gratifying.

[BuyingThyme]

26. The compromise is as secret as the torture.

(That is not a joke.)

[derby378]

6. Someone had better fucking speak up, and NOW

Any Democratic Congressperson who has to be prodded by his or her constituents before issuing a statement against torture is barely worthy to be called a Democrat. Show me your spine, donkeys!

[NightOwwl]

7. Unbelievable, isn't it.

I thought for sure this would be an issue they would jump on. I waited....and waited...and waited.

I now realize they won't speak up on any subject. And if by chance they do take the House, don't hold your breath waiting for any investigations.

They are useless...and they don't deserve to be called Democrats.

[brentspeak]

8. The GOP thanks you for your support, even if you didn't intend it

[NightOwwl]

18. By your logic...

If I criticize the left, I'm supporting the right. Therefore, I must support the terrorists because I certainly am critical of the Bush administration. And as we all know, one is either with Bush or with the terrorists.

For god's sake - I have a right to rag on the Democrats. They haven't done a damn thing for their constituents since I can't remember when. To say this means I support the GOP is just plain ridiculous.

[Zhade]

29. This from someone who wants us to just wait around on our Dem saviors.

I think we can safely ignore your 'wisdom'.

[magellan]

10. But you're wrong, they did speak up!

I feel so much better now they've put Chavez in his place, don't you?

:sarcasm:

[pinto]

9. Bush, McCain, et al don't speak for Democrats. It's not our compromise.

[Radicalman]

13. That's right but.......

Timid democrats can now hide behind McCain's skirts and maintain that this is the best deal that could have been worked out. Whether they do that or not, time will tell. You and I had better stay tuned!!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NightOwwl]

19. You might want to check Radicalman's profile.

He's been here since 2002. BTW, his point is perfectly valid.

[LetsThink]

11. Can you get reliable intel from torturing people?

Just wondering.........? You know, if Dems want to wink and nod to let this one pass..... I guess everyone has done their studies, knows if this is an effective means to gather reliable information ? Torture-- you know where the person is so desperate as to say ANYTHING they think might end a complete living nightmare??

Or are we just trying to drive the pile to that lowest possible despicable point where the absolute most vile bits of human nature fester...... ??

Excuse me while I puke my guts out for a moment, before going on........

[ShortnFiery]

15. Yes, if you say torture a whole squad of people and then combine

all their testimonies, you can get "a window" of truth. However, you have trashed your chances of building any relationship with the individual prisoner. Since they all *hate you* now, each time you wish to glean more information, you're going to have to torture it out of them. :(

Interrogations by their very nature involves questioning of a prisoner.

The Army's Guidelines revealed in Field Manual 34-52 are DETAILED and UNCLASSIFIED:

INTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/

Every thing within this Field Manual is in accordance with Article 3 of The Geneva Conventions.

I have had the opportunity to interact with Army Interrogators. They will attest to the fact that, if the information is not truly time sensitive (The Rare Ticking Bomb Scenario), you can glean much more valid information by proper questioning and increasing trust and repore. More valid intelligence and over a longer period of time, i.e., much more valid data to work with and compare to other LEGAL interrogations.

[newyawker99]

20. Hi LetsThink!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[alittlelark]

16. The neo-cons in power are EVIL

The dem's are HOPING PRAYING GROVELING that the US 'gets it'. They (dems) are out of power. They have 6 or so weeks until D-Day for this republic. They have NO responsibility for the travesty this once great nation has become. They have 6 weeks until they can EXPOSE this PORNOGRAPHIC administration. They are soooo far ahead in all polls...


I Hope that they are playing the game of swing voters. Not that it will matter w/ Diebold et al, but I just SOOOOO want to believe that they understand this FASCIST regime, and are playing w/ them.

[gully]

21. Most if not all Democrats will refuse to support this

.

[OneBlueSky]

22. beyond the obvious facts that information derived from torture . . .

is completely unreliable, and that what Americans do to prisoners/detainees gives other countries carte blanche to do the same to US personnel who are captured, the Democrats should be screaming from the rooftops, in unison . . .

"This is NOT what Americans DO!!! Americans DO NOT torture!!!" . . .

[many a good man]

23. Its THE perfect issue to FILIBUSTER

If the bill Republicans present on the floor of Congress weakens the UCMJ even one iota Dems must lead a filibuster.

More than any other issue, this clearly illustrates the divide between the administration and the American people. It demonstrates how much they have destroyed American principles of morality. It would set up a debate lining up pro-torture Repukes against everyone else.

OTOH, if Dems allow torture to be codified I will think seriously about tearing up my DNC card. And before anyone jumps on me for saying that, this is the first and only time I've made that statement or even had that thought. Its THAT important.

[philly_bob]

24. I expect Democratic unanimity against "compromise"

It will be interesting to see what Republican moderates do, especially my home-state Arnold Specter. Also Chaffee, Jeffords, Snowe. And what will Leiberman do?

I'm undecided whether it's worth a filibuster. I still haven't seen text of compromise. If it allows waterboarding and stress positions, it is torture, not "coercion". If it "allows the President to define" torture under Geneva Convention, as some reporters have said, then it may well be worth a filibuster.

This isn't just a technicality. How Christians can support torture is beyond me. Local "interpretations" of international conventions are inherently suspicious; how would we feel if another head-of-state reinterpreted the Geneva Convention against U.S.

I know I'm preaching to the choir.

[AtomicKitten]

30. I EXPECT a filibuster on this bullshit legislation.

Of all the egregious policies this administration has spawned, and there have been many, this one in particular erodes the very fabric of morality in our society.

[Radicalman]

31. Latest - Democrats Wary Of Detainee Trials Compromise

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092306Y.shtml

[AtomicKitten]

33. thanks for the link

Wary is a start that MUST culminate in a filibuster. This "deal" is wrong on so many levels that Dems should have no problem tearing it apart, that is if they are prepared to pull up their socks and stand tall in the face of being pegged "weak on terror." That meme is such bullshit. In reality, and the Dems would be smart to hammer that REPUBS ARE WRONG ON TERROR.

[derby378]

32. Torture - The Bottom Line

Thank you, Negativland...

(Sobbing of an adult male)
(Electronic apparatus, possibly a drill or a set of electrodes)
(Female voice, agonized, possibly pleading)
"I was sitting there on Sunday morning, in the Chief of Police’s office, at a large table..."
Torture.
"He was listening to a football game..."
Let's be up front about it.
"...a football game..."
Torture. T-O-R-T-U-R-E.
"...on the small transistor radio."
That's the bottom line these days.
"And I began to hear..."
It's replaced death. Even teenagers kill themselves these days...
"And I..."
...along with the depressed...
"And I..."
...and terminally ill.
"And I began to hear..."
Death's a release from pain and anxiety and humiliation...
"...this very low..."
...a valued reward.
"...this very low wailing sound..."
But the threat of death just isn't enough to control people, so the ante's been raised.
"...coming through the walls."
Now...
(Cry of anguish)
...it's torture...
"Then it got louder..."
...and high-tech torture at that.
"Then it got louder, and it was a moaning sound."
As the technocrats say, it's "functional."
"The Chief of Police told the Colonel to turn up the radio."
That's why everyone who's intelligent and unanesthetized enough to care...
"Then..."
...has sort of put their life on hold.
"Then the sound got louder..."
Underneath all the defensive layers of denial...
"...and turned to..."
...we're all afraid of being tortured...
"...anguish..."
(Male gasping for air)
...or homosexually gang-raped, or having it happen to someone we care about.
"...screaming..."
We're all self-consciously living a lie.
"And I knew what it was."
We're all happy Joes.
"And I knew that this man was being tortured with..."
How did it happen here in the land of the free and the home of the brave?
"...tortured with electricity."
(Male sobbing)
I mean, in some banana republic...
"Well, it kept getting louder..."
...some distant past like the Spanish Inquisition...
"...and more horrible..."
(Agonized female voice)
...World War II, the Nazis and the fanatical Japs.
"And each time..."
But not us Americans.
(Male screaming)
"And each time..."
GI Joe.
"And each time..."
Frank Sinatra.
"And each time..."
Jerry Lewis. Autumn in New York.
"The Chief would tell the Colonel..."
Baseball.
"...to turn up the radio."
(Pleading female voice)
College football. Glenn Miller.
"Pretty soon..."
Somehow, it doesn't fit with torture.
"Pretty soon, the radio was very, very loud..."
But it does, of course, does.
"...but I could still hear those sounds."
Because it was always a façade, the image of America. And now, the façade has finally failed...
"...anguish..."
...like a burned-out clutch...
"...screaming..."
...or a decayed tooth that bursts open.
"...horrible..."
They both smell bad.
(Agonized female voice)
Strange.
(Agonized female voice)
Ominous.
(Male sobbing and gasping for breath)
"Going back to the office in the Embassy, naturally I was speculating who that possibly could have been."
(Male screaming)