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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:10 PM
Original message
A nation of brats
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 04:13 PM by salinen
That's what I see. I'll catch hell for this when I say most people are costumed puffballs of nothing. When was the shift from what we said and did and thought as being important attributes, to an age of personal display and non-committal conversations? Almost everyone's playing dress up. And the most glaring to me are the Harley Riders. Sorry, but those people look retarded and childish and must make loud noises to garner attention if all the leather and studs and black aren't working. Children with toys. Never grew up to abandon the "me". Why is everyone on display as a character from a "B" movie?

If this nation was better populated with "thinkers", instead of "lookers", Bush would never have stood a chance.

Only rotten tomatoes please, the green ones hurt.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. you'll get no arguement from me
regarding your post. I to am sick of the me..me..me generation. They behave like they are the only people that exist on the planet, rude inconsiderate and obnoxious.
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
57. It's not just one generation....
It seems that much of society has turned into material possession grubbing automatons. I, myself have been guilty of it and so have my parents at times.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
60. Who exactly, is the "me" generation?
:shrug:
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #60
78. I think my generation (I am 27)
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 10:27 AM by nam78_two
certainly fits the criterion right now...very libertarian, self-centred and uncaring...

Most "liberals" I know even only seem to care about issues like drug legalization , iow only about stuff that directly affects their lives.

Now if you are working two jobs at minimum wage and have no spare time, I can see why you are too tired at the end of the day to care about anything, or if you are ill, have family problems etc.

But my peers, mostly young healthy people with money and spare time...their idea for the most part of being "liberal" is saying "Bush sucks" and party chatter about politics but thats about it.
Mostly they just seem to care about pop culture, movies , video games, dating etc. :shrug:.


Ok I exaggerate a bit maybe, but there is a lot of truth there- I often feel let down by my generation...I have no idea what previous generations where like when they were my age, but I certainly see a lot more people in the over 50 age-range at activist events.
It frightens me....what happens when they go away? Will there be no activists left? I don't buy the, "older people have more time on their hands" bs. IMO people in my age-group have lots more free time than someone with kids for example.

(Of course I should mention I am in grad school-maybe those of us that are eternally in school mature more slowly ;). But, I did used to think that students are the agents of change in any generation...not this one though or at least not my school, which is full of rich, spoiled brats.)
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BlueJackal Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. Great point nam
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 10:45 AM by BlueJackal
"But my peers, mostly young healthy people with money and spare time...their idea for the most part of being "liberal" is saying "Bush sucks" and party chatter about politics but thats about it."

What do the "hipsters" in the cheesy thrift-store blazers, black horn-rimmed glasses, 80s wristbands, vintage Coke t-shirts, ripped jeans, vintage 30-year-old converse sneakers and the mandatory Volvo and Starbuck's latte do for the progressive movement besides prop up such Rethuglikkkan and corporate institutions as Viacom and News Corp.?

You put it brilliantly. I'm not sure if you saw the MTV awards back in 2003 but it became hip to say "fuck the war" and every idiot from Neil Young to Fred Durst was saying it just to fit in and be cool -- it was so very annoying. The care-free partying of the 80s and individual activism of the 90s have been washed away and replaced with a self-serving yuppie culture that doesn't tolerate non-conformity.

I hate to say it but our movement is losing its creative edge and individuality. Dare I say and postulate that we're getting old?
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #84
92. yup...many of the young "liberals" are liberal because its "hip"
Maybe earnest prosing may "bore" people or "turn people off", but honestly how much is someone going to care about something, if they just got into something to be "cool" and like all the other people they know.

It also seems to me that alot of it is just about feeling superior to those hick fundies. I am not talking here about honest frustration or anger at the Christian fundamentalists for their hatred of homosexuals etc. I am talking about people for whom it really seems to be just about sneering at people with accents they find laughable who are "jesus freaks".

I am not sticking up at all for the fundies here, but at least they believe in something other than the size of their own ass and how it looks in jeans :eyes:.
Maybe if the veil could be lifted from their eyes, they could start caring about poverty, the environment, animal welfare, healthcare etc. If all you ever think about is yourself then what can you ever care about :shrug:?

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BlueJackal Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Again, damn good points
"It also seems to me that alot of it is just about feeling superior to those hick fundies. I am not talking here about honest frustration or anger at the Christian fundamentalists for their hatred of homosexuals etc. I am talking about people for whom it really seems to be just about sneering at people with accents they find laughable who are "jesus freaks"."

Damn good point. I'm a proud Christian but I can't stand fundies because to me they are more about hypocrisy and being judgemental than actually fulfilling what the bible says. Of course there are exceptions but as a general rule it tends to stick. I also find it odd because in the early 20th century Southern fundamentalists formed the backbone of the populist movement in the South which sought to wrest control away from the Southern elites and put it into the hands of the people. Huey Long was a child of that movement. You'd be surprised but many of them vehemently defend welfare -- as so many are sadly on it. If only they could put their hatred of homosexuals(also as you pointed at) aside for a bit and focus on their own economic well-being they could move up in the world and attain some semblence of economic equality to the rest of the nation and they would make great brothers and sisters in the socialist movement because frankly with the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs over the past decade and also the increase in service-sector jobs which are more than easily filled they can be a potent force in fighting the corporatists' increasing encroachment upon our civil rights.


"Maybe if the veil could be lifted from their eyes, they could start caring about poverty, the environment, animal welfare, healthcare etc. If all you ever think about is yourself then what can you ever care about"

Another great point. They have to be educated first. And until progressives invest time, attention, and money to recruiting this very fertile voting bloc, we'll never succeed in defeating Darth Cheney and his minions.
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Dervill Crow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #92
119. I used to be a fundamentalist.
Missouri Synod Lutheran. That's pretty darn fundamental. And I did care about "poverty, the environment, animal welfare, healthcare etc."

To me fundamentalist meant someone who believed in the fundamentals that Jesus taught. I don't know how it got to be a dirty word to some people any more than I know how liberal got to be a dirty word to other people.

To me liberal means someone who is respectful of other people and their beliefs. There's more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell. Why are those two words mutually exclusive? It makes me want to cry, but then everything is doing that to me today.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. I know how
because the term is now associated with people SO far from the actual fundamentals of Jesus' teachings. Pat and Jerry, the Bakers, etc. Televangelism, I think, was invented by the devil.

(I'm an ELCA Lutheran btw.)
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Dervill Crow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Yup, you're right.
Welcome to DU. :hi:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
111. Don't be so hard on yourself
I'm 44, so I'm considered the tail end of the boomer generation, and we haven't exactly left the country the way we found it.

Sorry, 'bout that.
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BlueJackal Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
80. I wouldn't define the "me" generation as any specific generation but......
rather as a compliation of individual Americans across several generations who in the past 30 or so years have turned the concept of being an American on its head. They care nothing for anything other than themselves. This can be seen in how every other asshole on the road has to have either a huge SUV or a pick-up. Can't they drive cars? I mean I understand certain individuals need them for work or because they have a lot of kids and all that shit but every other dickhead on the road has one. It doesn't matter of the age, sex, race, etc. of the driver. It seems to be a universal deal and it's very annoying. The "me" generation is going to bring this country down.

And don't think that all "me generationalists" are Rethuglikkkans. Many are Greens, Independents, and Dems who just are pure capitalists and are Democrat for one pet reason or another. Many of us sadly fall into this category. And watch it next -- private planes -- you mark my words.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Everything is image! Blame the advertising industry!
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Blame TV
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. That is exactly it
The image is first. There is too much attention to image and not substance. In the 80s all these business seminars about how if you dress well, say better than you can afford, you'll look more successful and therefore be more successful. Maybe true to a point but we've taken it so far as if substance no longer matters. Incompetents are in jobs because they Look the job not because they could DO the job.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. It started in the 80's. "Dress for success".
The Raygun's and the decade of greed, which has now lasted three decades. Shallow, is a conservative value.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
53. I remember people buying cars and houses they really could not
afford - on the assumption that the appearance of success would lead to greater success.

80s seminars I went to were all about self esteem and how you can do whatever you really want to do if you really want to - there were some good ideas, and I'm all for self-esteem, but not to the point that it is dependent only on monetary success. It was interesting how financial success was practically the only thing people "really wanted" and would get if they only just wanted it enough. And this was extreme success, not just making a living.

Interesting how it's still there, even though "everything changed after 911." :hangover: :shrug:
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. They deserve some of it
but why does seeing an image translate into becomming that image?
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. A book I just recommended tonight actually answers that question.
It's Consuming Desire: Mass Images and the Shaping of American Consciousness, by Stuart Ewen and Elizabeth Ewen.

It traces historically how the ideology of consumerism evolved in industrialized America as mass advertising and mass production of goods and print materials came about, and up to today. It discusses how each media was either developed in service of capitalist and hegemonic ends, or how the various media (print, radio, movies, tv, catalogs, department store, billboards, and so on) were appropriated to do the same. It's really interesting because it's not just an historical account of this, but also shows how and why individuals were swept up in the consumer culture and how their sense of self became/becomes identified primarily with consumption.

It's an easy read and hard to put down. It explains a lot about our modern consumer culture and goes on in its last chapter to discuss how all this relates to a dwindling democracy and an uninformed and uninterested populace.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. actually Channels of Desire
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
59. Thank you! I mistyped! n/t
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
68. sounds like a great book!
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. Some people like to be fooled. n/t
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 11:18 PM by susanna
on edit: Some people. Not all people. Sorry.
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BlueJackal Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
87. re:
"but why does seeing an image translate into becomming that image?"

Because everybody wants to be loved.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #87
120. loved for an image projected
is false love
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. Exactly. I LOATHE the advertising industry.
I get pissed every time I get called a "consumer". I refuse to be part of that culture. I think it's responsible for America's downward spiral. If not entierly responsible, it's a very big part of the catalyst.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. People used to be referred as "citizens"
you never hear that term anymore. Now we are all "Consumers" the sole reason to exist, the only use the American citizen is...to CONSUME. :cry:
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yup. We're not people anymore. We're walking dollar signs.
We're being placed and pigeonholed into niche markets minute by minute. Our sole function in America is to buy things.
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Ironically, we used to USE our power as consumers to effect change.
Nobody seems able or willing to do that anymore.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
73. Good catch
brother or sister consumer.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. I blame Reagan
that is when people started the me-me-me crap.
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. Don't get me started.
Especially as regards advertising's inbred cousin: marketing.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Spoiled brats.
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 04:17 PM by TahitiNut
Overindulged, unfit for civil company, still getting their butts wiped and with mommies (or maids) that clean their rooms while they whine about doing the slightest things for themselves.

The little girls are told "their Prince will come" and the little boys are told a big truck is better than a big heart.

Pathetic.

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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. A population bred to become
nothing.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. And if I see one more yuppie on an interior desecration show
showing off the palatial kitchen with commercial stove, huge fridge, and acres of granite smirk that s/he NEVER COOKS, I'm going to become violent.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. True
American kitchens are sufficient to feed a village or small community.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I have a family member like that....magazine style kitchen..
and thrift store cookware. Since she doesn't really cook she doesn't understand why it would be objective.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. This is the industry I work in, but......
What some of us focus on is greening the environment and universal designing. It's coming around to a more aware level of thinking. My Kitchen- state of the art appliances in a very efficient space. Reason that I invested in the state of the art is for function as well as asthetics. I have adopted the " less is more" additude when it comes to designing.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
56. People who USE the elaborate kitchens are a different matter...
I know several people who have those types of kitchens who don't use them and have no interest in cooking...someone who uses the equipment and requires the equipment (such as yourself) is a whole other story!
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
55. You have just voiced my personal #1 yuppie pet peeve!
God help me...I cannot stand all these a-holes with commercial kitchen equipment that they haven't a clue how to use. I also find granite to be downright ugly at this point because it just screams "I've arrived look at ME!"

While we are on the topic of this... it also bugs me when the yupsters BRAG about not knowing how to cook...like they cannot be bothered with such mundane matters such as preparing their own food.

As to Harley's and their goofy looking riders...I would like to know what is cool about being middle aged and overweight---dressed like something out of the 1970's riding around on something that sounds like it emits flatulence through a bull horn?

I completely agree that the *ME* thing has reached the pinnacle of stupidity...
I don't know what caused it but I cannot stand it.
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mikeytherat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
66. On HGTV's "House Hunters" a couple needed a "professional" kitchen
#1 thing - had to have a palatial, "professional" kitchen.

They bought an 8,000 sq. ft. abomination, with a kitchen bigger than my first apartment, and did this kitchen ever have it all - eight-burner gas stove with hood, acres and acres of granite, THREE dishwashers, etc.

When they came back six weeks after the couple had moved in, there was the kitchen, just as immaculate as they day they bought they house. So, what was for dinner that night? The couple was dumping Bird's Eye frozen broccoli into a dime-store pot on the stove. Nothing else was in sight.

:rofl:

mikey_the_rat
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
112. Well, the bulemic who dies with the fanciest kitchen wins, ya know?
:rofl:

Hell... I thought I'd "arrived" when I got an ice-maker in the door refrigerator. Fifty years of ice trays and spilling water on the floor ... I enjoyed every fragment of crushed ice in my lemonade. Now I'm back to spilling water on the floor. (sigh)
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Still using ice trays here.
:rofl: ... water on the floor EVERY night!

I had a 40 yr old and a 15 yr old fridge that got destroyed by Bushler's neglect after hurricane Katrina. The new fridge is a very cheap one with no ice maker.... Well, I am the ice maker - always have been. :)

Good thing my floors were ruined and not being covered by the insurance company. Whoopee! :eyes:
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rhiannon55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. "costumed puffballs of nothing"
I love it! You are SO right!

:rofl:
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
70. that description is perfect!
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. I agree...
..but you do you know of them other than that they ride a Harley? Most of the guys riding Harleys now are doctors and lawyers.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Harley riders are just the easiest to see
almost everyone is prancing around on some invisible stage.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. And those who say they aren't
are liars.Everyone is playing a role to a certain extent.I'm included.
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Tyo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. They are even easier to HEAR! nt
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. that was the point of the OP. they're playing dress-up n/t
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objet Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Conspicuous consumption...
And by 'consumption' I don't mean tuberculosis...

See Thorstein Veblen, of course - "Theory of the Leisure Class."

When you outsource the majority of manual labor to third-world countries, the whole culture becomes that of a leisure class, theoretically speaking.

See also Jean Baudrillard's "In The Shadow of the Silent Majorities." Anyone who criticizes Baudrillard's work as being just more po-mo 'style over substance' gobbledygook obviously misses his point in a profoundly ironic way. (Not to say that Baudrillard's work is above critique, just that it's far, far above such shallow types of critique.)

Veblen wrote the text in question over 106 years ago, so honestly - this problem is not one of recent vintage.

The recent apparently unidirectional drift of the culture toward relentless superficiality, however, is indeed enough even to make one sympathetic to 'conservative' viewpoints.

That's not a shocker, tho. The Right's gone so far Right now that to be a 'Left Centrist' means to be a conservative - in the unreconstructed, non-'Neo' sense.

Being liberal without an appropriate hint of conservatism just isn't differentiable from a "live fast, die young at the Chateau Marmont" perspective.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Welcome objet
I'll check out Baudrillard.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Hi objet!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Veblen also described the dichotomy between people who are inclined
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 06:38 PM by TahitiNut
... to make 'goods' (engineers) and people who are inclined to make 'money' (businessmen).
No matter which of these books we open, we find the idea that life in a modern industrial community is the result of a polar conflict between 'pecuniary employments' and 'industrial employments', between 'business enterprise' and 'the machine process', between 'vendibility' and 'serviceability' - in short, between making money and making goods. There is a class struggle under capitalism, not between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, but between businessmen and engineers. Pecuniary habits of thought unite bankers, brokers, lawyers and managers in a defence of private acquisition; in contrast, the discipline of the machine unites workers in industry and more especially the technicians and engineers who supervise them.

http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/walras/bios/veblen.html



"No one travelling on a business trip would be missed if he failed to arrive." - Thorstein Veblen

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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. touche'
to you and the OP
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Homer Wells Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kicked and Recommended
You have quite concisely put a whole lot of what i think and believe into an insightful seven line rant.
I wish I could have articulated that statement myself.
Thanks.
Steve
:toast:
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. LOL
Harley Riders? I've never been worried about them! :rofl: They gotta parade extra macho like women who do extra femmy. It's just the identifying body art of a subculture that's basically about Hog Worship.

I'm much more worried about the clones in the Brooks Brothers suits in the spiffy offices with opaque glass. :scared:

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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
58. Most of the Harley Riders now ARE those Brooks bros bozos
There are many *well to do* types with high profile exec jobs that ride Harley's in their leisure time. At least that is what I see in the area I am in.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #58
93. OK well...I havent seen those kind
Where I live Harley riders are chunky gnarly old guys with lots of ancient tattoos and studded leather, roaring through town on their way to Bubba's Barbeque. So where do you see these Harley riding execs...out on Long Island or somewhere? I would imagine their 'look' is a bit different, though still muy macho.

That's a new one on me. Cheers.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #93
100. 60 miles outside of DC
There's a bunch of faux hard asses floating around on any given weekend and they look downright silly.

There are also the old gnarly guys running around that are probably true bikers but I mostly see the repuke posing types lol

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #100
107. I will keep my eyes open for the repuke faux bikers
around DC for sure--a strange morph...some kind of skinhead fetish?
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Look for leather in garish colors lol eom
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. OK got it now--
thanks for explaining this phenom to me. NOW I understand what the OP is talking about (and Forrest Gump's post below explains further). :rofl: I just couldn't GET the reference to (my antiquated image of) Harley riders!?! I am not much into vehicles of any kind...but definitely interested in the psychology behind the urge for (R) business execs, drs, and lawyers to tool around in expensive colored leathers pretending to ride a Harley. This is hilarious.

It's not hard to miss some of the subcultures these days...tho I have seen the Rollergirls. OK keeping my eyes peeled for lawyers in hot leathers.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Yep! Now you have the picture! lol
It's like *oh geez* ...banker by day hard ass wearing a red leather to go and dine at some yuppie place at night and drink wine (not that there is anything wrong with that lol...unless you vote red!)
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Lorax Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. MTV
I blame it all on MTV.
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BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. That's it. Strike a Pose, baby
A nation of know-nothing mannequins...
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. What the heck is wrong with harley riders in leather?
I knew a dem judge here in franklin county for some time that was one, and one of the girls at work is in a biker club. They wear leather for protection, and could care less how they look to others. What, you want em to wear suits while cruising down the road?

Thinkers aren't worrying while they ride around how they look to you, if they were, they wouldn't dress so damned tacky ;) Reminds me of people upset with how well dressed people in church are (they are all showy), if they ride a motorcycle with leather now too they are all showy and wanting attention.

What should people wear?
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Harley riders in leather..
That's my FAMILY you Talking about,Birth family and GBLT one.. the liberal side of my relations .. in my family wear leather..The rethug few..they don't wear no leather..they look "normal".They wear the "casual work" barf look.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #37
76. I know
bikers are cool, but do have a "prance" gene.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
62. If they were 'thinkers' they wouldn't be on a Harley
Thinkers tend to ride bikes that cost half as much, ride twice as long, are 100 times more comfortable and have a muffler.

We call them "Honda's".

Harley is ALL about image over substance. It says "I care more about what people think than what I ride"

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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. True Dat...
I found myself caught up in the Harley mystique earlier this summer. That was before I checked out a Honda VTX... Man Oh Man what a sweet ride, and reliable too! Only half the money! It's now a toss up between that or the Suzuki M109R. Tell me any Harley can top this, and I'll kiss your ass on Main Street...

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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. What a mean ass ride
To me, harleys look bulky and squarish.
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #77
97. Yep, and they rattle the kidneys...
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
102. Go with the Suzuki
They have long been a very reliable and durable bike. :thumbsup: Hondas are overvalued - not a bad bike - but you'll get more value for your dollar with a Suzuki.

Harleys were great decades ago before the yuppies degraded them. They weren't solely 'muscle' bikes or image-conscious then either. They devolved, with the help of an insidious marketing campaign (they even have Harley cigarettes now). Harley still makes an occasionally decent ride, but due to their overall decline in quality, I would go with a Suzuki.
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Yeah, I'm leaning that way...
My current bike is a little Suzuki SV650, what a fun little rocket, but I'm getting older, and the butt is getting sore on rides. The M109R is a real monster!
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
75. harley riders are just fine
but they are the easiest example of a "dress up" society. Have you ever seen a harley rider in any color but black? I went to a harley event in a brown leather jacket and I was the only one. there were hundreds of people there.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
106. How often to you see a Harley rider in an Aerostitch suit?
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 12:55 PM by lumberjack_jeff
It's a lot more protective than leather. How about a full-face helmet?

Besides, are you suggesting that this:

... qualifies as protective riding gear?

You know what? I don't have a big issue with dress up, but at least acknowledge that you're not really spiderman just 'cuz you're wearing the costume. Pretend is fine until it crosses into delusion.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. It's more-or-less their parents' faults....
Of course there are other influences, but the parents are far-and-away numero uno, in my book.
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bumblebee1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. To borrow the words from a Canon commercial from the 90's.
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 07:53 PM by bumblebee1
In a commercial starring Andre Agassi: "Image is everything." Unlike the rest of this country, Andre Agassi at least grew up to take tennis seriously. He figured out that in order to have a legendary place in the sport, you had to win major tournaments. Money wasn't going to give him that kind of status. He woke up before he blew his career.

Don't worry, you'll get no rotten tomatoes or fruit from me.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's rather superficial to judge somebody by how they dress.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm a costumed furball
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 10:12 PM by undergroundpanther
But I definitely got something inside here. I walk my talk and I do it creatively... And it is hard to do sometimes. My conscience kicks my ass worse than any bully could if I by-stand like an asshole when someone needs me.
I agree the nation has too many psychopaths and empty brats. Sad mess it is.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. LOL!
:D
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. I half agree, and LOL, but isn't it pretty great we have the option?
I'd hate to live in a place where one couldn't look foolish and ride a nice motorcycle if they wanted to. One of the perils of freedom is that goofwads get it too.
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TheFriedPiper Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
65. Nice motorcycle? No, he said "Harley", not BMW or Honda
Harley's are nice if you are a mechanic.

If you don't like working on your bike, get a Honda or BMW.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. This post fails.
Useless "observations" with a poorly picked example (hint: leather's one of the safest materials you can wear on a motorcycle) to support an idea that we've somehow strayed from a golden age that never was.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
79. Oh come on
Are all those silver studs and frill and harley logos part of that safe material you're talking about?
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. But the green ones taste better,
dipped in cornmeal and fried in bacon drippings. Sorry - I got sidetracked. It's green tomato time of year here in the northern hinterlands. ;-)
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #42
81. You made me think of food
I'll be back after breakfast.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
47. 80s is when style become more important than substance for a lot of
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 12:01 AM by glitch
Americans. It's all about managing perception through image for far too many of us.
Most people don't even see it as a problem.

edit: should've read the other posts first!
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
48. you'll get no argument from me...
..I've long since given up on the plastic world. Real people don't stand a chance in it. Look at what they did to Gore, Kerry, Carter, Clinton. It's all about 'appearances' and propaganda, not what's real or true, or what the facts are. No one cares about that. Only about winning (at ALL costs) and 'looking' good. Thus, Duhbya's doctored driver's license and hidden (and shameful) military records, and his made-up, put-up, plastered-up presidency as the son of a rich Nazi supporter.

People are fake, too many of them. The real ones just disappear in the midst of all the noise and fakery.

That's how we ended up with a pile of bu$hit for a "leader" (rather, a piss-poor excuse for one). Small minds, no minds...
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #48
83. Right on
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kdpeters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
49. How does someone so self-centered think everyone else is a brat?
You're first mistake is assuming that we play dress up to get your attention. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't even know who you are. Are you implying your appropriate, acceptable clothes aren't chosen for the way others will react to them? Do you have no whimsy in your life? No time where you can dress up and just have some fun after thinking all week?

If this nation was better populated with "thinkers", instead of "lookers", Bush would never have stood a chance.


OK. What are you doing about it besides bitching? Are you involved with anyone who could be a thinker if she only had the right mentor in her life? I've known way too many over educated thinkers who were insufferable snobs, though they'd had every advantage and every opportunity their entire lives. I wish everyone regardless of economic class had a supportive environment to cultivate their strengths. In the meantime, I'd rather put on leather chaps and ride the coast with a humble working man than have a deep conversation with a self absorbed thinking man.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #49
64. !
:thumbsup:
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
91. Are you the one whose loud-ass bucket of bolts disturbs my peace every day
of the summer on US 101? Please, shut off the damn thing and find that self-absorbed thinking man.

Or buy a quiet motorcycle.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
50. sad to say, I pretty much have to agree with you . . .
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 04:19 AM by OneBlueSky
image is everything in this country . . . most people don't think -- they just do/buy/become what the media tells them to . . .

spending their evenings watching the crime dramas that populate half of the prime time network schedules -- and listening to their "leaders" -- they live in a state of perpetual fear, sure that the world is a dangerous place, that people who are different from them are threats, that there are criminals everywhere looking to steal their property, rape their children, and/or kill their parents . . .

I spend most of my time these days in the company of my dogs rather than with people . . . as my spiritual advisors, they've taught me about living in the moment, about unconditional love, about forgiveness -- and they don't give a shit about their images . . . no one tells them what to do, or what to buy, or who to be . . . they are simply who they are, who they were meant to be . . . dogs . . .

I wish others could spend some time with my dogs -- or with any dogs, for that matter . . . if they paid attention, they might learn who THEY are, who THEY were meant to be . . . humans . . .
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
95. dogs are great teachers
they are nature and nature doesn't care how we look.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
51. "The Century of the Self" - how the Freud family founded consumerism
(I must admit I haven't actually seen this myself, but many speak highly of it)

To many in both politics and business, the triumph of the self is the ultimate expression of democracy, where power has finally moved to the people. Certainly the people may feel they are in charge, but are they really? The Century of the Self tells the untold and sometimes controversial story of the growth of the mass-consumer society in Britain and the United States. How was the all-consuming self created, by whom, and in whose interests?

The Freud dynasty is at the heart of this compelling social history. Sigmund Freud, founder of psychoanalysis; Edward Bernays, who invented public relations; Anna Freud, Sigmund's devoted daughter; and present-day PR guru and Sigmund's great grandson, Matthew Freud.

Sigmund Freud's work into the bubbling and murky world of the subconscious changed the world. By introducing a technique to probe the unconscious mind, Freud provided useful tools for understanding the secret desires of the masses. Unwittingly, his work served as the precursor to a world full of political spin doctors, marketing moguls, and society's belief that the pursuit of satisfaction and happiness is man's ultimate goal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/cen...


One: Happiness Machines

The story of the relationship between Sigmund Freud and his American nephew, Edward Bernays. Bernays invented the public relations profession in the 1920s and was the first person to take Freud's ideas to manipulate the masses. He showed American corporations how they could make people want things they didn't need by systematically linking mass-produced goods to their unconscious desires.

Bernays was one of the main architects of the modern techniques of mass-consumer persuasion, using every trick in the book, from celebrity endorsement and outrageous PR stunts, to eroticising the motorcar.

His most notorious coup was breaking the taboo on women smoking by persuading them that cigarettes were a symbol of independence and freedom. But Bernays was convinced that this was more than just a way of selling consumer goods. It was a new political idea of how to control the masses. By satisfying the inner irrational desires that his uncle had identified, people could be made happy and thus docile.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/cen...


etc.

The filmmaker went on to give us "The Power of Nightmares".
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
122. This is VERY important info
for anyone wanting to understand how "citizens" morphed into "consumers."
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
52. Spoiled brats. No intelligence, no morality.
Something happened to the American people and it is not
good. Cannot tell right from wrong, or truth from lies.
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exlrrp Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
54. Too much Peter Pan
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 08:24 AM by exlrrp
Its easier to divide and conquer if the masses have their asses planted firmly in front of the teevee. Marx said religion is the opiate of the people. It used to be, now its teevee.

I was sitting talking to my dad, a WWII vet, the other day. Althogh I rebelled against him in the 60s, I now realize his generation had a lot more class than mine (the boomers) do.
They dressed well, they had GREAT music (they invented "hip") and they got along well with each other, segregation not withstanding. They weren't singing songs about 9mm's, copkilling and slapping bitches around as a proper thing to do. Sure they were pushed into more heavily defined male female roles, but I don't think people are any happier now you can change you sex whenever you feel like it.
You never hear many of those Depression kids whining about their lot, they really know how to make do. They take responsibility. Theyre mostly not married to the teevee.
Most of all they knew how to grow up and look adult. When they went out they dressed up. We boomers are still too much Peter Pan--you got boomers atill pretending to be teenagers, dressing like them, talking like them. we're jealous of our own kids youth. Thats what the Harleys and "Men's Toys" are all about. Umm, mature men (and women) don't play with toys? You'd never convince my generation about that, its ALL about playing with toys now we can afford them. The Greatest Generation knew that lfe is not about accumulating and playing with toys
And our kids are just as bad if not worse. It took my son 6.5 years to get a bachelors degree, which everyone else in my family got in 4 years, because he just fucked off. He finally finished when I threatened to jerk his funding. NOw he's unemployed a year after graduating with a liberal arts degree.
And their music is worse than ours--ours was about peace an love--theirs is about carjacking and killing. I don't let that "music" be played in my house. Nothing pisses me off more than a bunch of middle class white kids talking ghetto, something else my dads generation never did.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
61. you won't catch any hell from me. i've been surrounded by these
people so i know exactly where you're coming from. people that think they are just here to play and that it's forbidden to talk about anything of importance. i've been saying they're like children, but that's not entirely true. children have an innate curiosity of their surroundings. these people do not. it's as if part of their brain has been removed. it's depressing and infuriating.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
63. i feel like copying this thread and sending it to all the puffballs
i know.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #63
85. lol me too!/nt
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
69. I, for one, agree with the concepts in your post.
I am so tired of being entertained to death. And how many shows are there about how to look good, how to make your house look good, how to make your car look good. Good grief!

We have certainly moved from an age of intelligence and thinking to an age of non-thinking mannequins.

And it is very hard not to be a part of it when it surrounds you all the time.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
71. goodgod if i start on the harleywannabe mid-life-crycile owners nextdoor
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 09:19 AM by elehhhhna
this whole thread will be sent to the Lounge.

so nevermind.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
72. The other night I drove over 90 miles to have dinner
with some old pals from high school. I rarely see these people and was looking forward to some good conversation. My God. The chatter was all about tattoos and the new toys they've recently acquired and how they enjoy going out to a desert campground and getting shit-faced.

These are 50-something adults who sounded like a bunch of morons. I was sorry I wasted my time.
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BlueJackal Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
74. Welcome to 21st Century America and the new generation of "hipsters":
I couldn't have put it better friend.

You write:"That's what I see. I'll catch hell for this when I say most people are costumed puffballs of nothing. When was the shift from what we said and did and thought as being important attributes, to an age of personal display and non-committal conversations? Almost everyone's playing dress up. And the most glaring to me are the Harley Riders. Sorry, but those people look retarded and childish and must make loud noises to garner attention if all the leather and studs and black aren't working. Children with toys. Never grew up to abandon the "me". Why is everyone on display as a character from a "B" movie?"

Well it's quite simple to be frank. American capitalism has turned us all into little consumers and little individualists. Nobody cares for anything really outside of say what they can use to advance their own personal agenda and life plans. It's a struggle of sorts but I think that's where the right-wingers were successful in breaking up the now draconian and archaic concept of the "collective" American -- the blue-collar worker who's "one" with his fellow workers. Since we've basically outsourced almost all of our manufacturing work and since we grow only a fraction of our total crops every year we're left with a readily-available workforce that can and does shift through jobs as if they were dirty clothes. Unlike in the old days when my grandfather and even father helped build ships and other things at the shipyard or helped make ball-bearing joints at a small factory -- all that's over with.

The Rethuglikkkans have been very successful into turning us into a service economy - and then by bringing in an extra 11 million illegal workers they've even more saturated the market -- thus making it to where people will have to worry even more about putting food on the table instead of improving their economic standing. After all, if you have to compete with 10 illegal alien workers for a construction job -- do you think you're going to give a fuck about unionizing or better health care?

Probably not.

If you ask me for a brutally honest opinion, this country's already fucked. I post on here to try and do as much good as I can before I leave the country. I've recently been looking into real estate in France and Germany because quite frankly I'd hate to see this country in 60 years when Mexican nationalist groups are marching in the streets of Pheonix, Los Angeles, and Houston demanding the return of the Southwestern United States back to Mexico -- that huge fucking chunk of land we raped and stole from them 150 years ago and that they are now slowly taking back.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
82. Great post! A nation of thinkers-what a concept!
Seems to me we were at that point in the 60s & 70s. But the rampant greed and materialism that was hyped everywhere in 80s has since almost ruined this country.

I never bought into it, never could afford it and even if I could, wouldn't want to. Life is too short to live so superficially!
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
86. No rotten tomatoes from me-I agree 100%
Style over substance is the order of the day! As a grad student, I am constantly amazed by how little educated, healthy, (relatively) affluent young people seem to care or even have awareness of a world outside of their own lives.
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Cygnusx2112 Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
88. I agree 100% with -->
Sorry, but those people look retarded and childish and must make loud noises to garner attention if all the leather and studs and black aren't working. Children with toys. Never grew up to abandon the "me". Why is everyone on display as a character from a "B" movie?

They really are clownish looking and ignorant to boot.

Is it bad of me to wish them a Happy Tumble as they go roaring down the road? :evilgrin:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
127. How Fucking Dare You Wish Death On Motorcyclists. What The Fuck Is
wrong with you?????
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
89. Most Americans seem insubstantial and seem to wallow in trivialities.
It's all about their cars and their hair and who is going to win on "Idol." They can't take the time or trouble to engage in any sort of intellectual thought.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
90. How about the people who make a career out of helping others
like helping in civil rights, or disabled persons, but won't befriend those people or help them out if they are in their own family? It is as if people think it is a status thing to have a caring job, but when they get home, they turn into another person.

Here in Madison Wisconsin, the liberals love to listen to the old time blues on the radio and talk about how great so and so artist is. However one of those great "blues artists" was in a local jail and died. And no one helped him out or visited him. When he died, someone wrote an article about what a great musician he was. But in real life, he had no one there to help him.
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BlueJackal Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
96. Anybody heard of the term "princess?"
God I hate that word with a passion. You'd think after seeing Paris Hilton and friends pulling their bullshit and shoving and flaunting their riches in everybody's face that we'd be sick of it. But fuck no, every other little girl wants to be Paris -- have 10 boyfriends and then pretend like its their fault for coming after her. They like experimenting with making out with other women and yet they don't like gays. It's that kind of hypocritical lifestyle as to why the 3rd world hates us with so much fervor.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #96
128. Welcome to DU!
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 10:34 PM by Iris
Yes - I, too, hate, hate, hate, HATE the princess bullshit. I tried to buy a present for my niece last Christmas that WASN'T princess inspired and had a might hard time. Not that it matters what I buy or don't buy for her; she's 4 and has leopard print pajamas!
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
98. Everybody is "in costume"--unless they're naked.
There's the old Dress_For_Success costume; plus Business_Casual in some offices or on some days.

T-shirts_&_Jeans_Every_Day for the Eternal Kid. (Substitute Mom_Jeans for the Hippy Housewife.)

Aren't those oddly dressed people in the Pride Parade hurting their cause?

Aren't those oddly dressed people in the Peace Rally hurting their cause?

Aren't those people in saris/dashikis/etc Un-American?

Harley Riders: Bandidos or Professionals On Their Day Off?

How dare these people offend you--naked at the PC?

Try judging people by what they say or do, not by how they dress. If you really must Judge. (Wait--Judges wear Robes!)




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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. jeans & a t-shirt for the eternal kid...hippie housewife????
no, they're called comfort clothes and totally unpretentious. and why the division..eternal kid/hippie housewife? sounds kinda sexist to me.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Hippy, not Hippie....
Find out about Mom Jeans here: www.guzer.com/videos/mom_jeans.php

OK: The I'm_Totally_Unpretentious Costume! Everyone gets to pick their costume. Some of us have several.





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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. When a grown man spends $25k for leather jacket and chaps,...
... a poor handling, inefficient and archaic bike and the least protective helmet he can buy, for the purpose of looking just like the other 750,000 riders of bikes just like his, is it truly unreasonable to make some assumptions?

Welcome to the rugged individualists club. Here's your uniform and a copy of the rules.

The op is absolutely right. Americans have become a bunch of selfish, ignorant, crybabies. If you ask 100 people what their relationship to their government is, 99 of them will say "taxpayer".

A taxpayer is nothing more than a consumer of services. It's one half of a commercial transaction. Lost in modern society is a perception that we're citizens with a responsibility to government as well as people who have an expectation of protection by government.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. Well, the Lumberjack Costume is definitely cheaper!
You're OK....

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Fewer rules, too.
:)
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
104. "costumed pufballs of nothing" ...well said (nt)
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
113. Excellent points. I know the Harley reference is only illustrative, and
not your main point, but it's worth looking at as a symptom of what (was always there but) seems to be becoming more and more common today, as the illusion and mythology of America folds back onto the real America(s) until it's impossible to pick them out -- and not just in towns like Los Angeles, where illusion and reality have always been inseparable.

Harley Davidson is a motorcycle company. It makes motorcycles. Not, in my opinion, good ones -- they can look pretty but, by any objective measure, are vastly inferior in design and performance to current Japanese and European offerings. It wasn't always this way, but it's been so for a good long time now. They also cost two or three times (or more) 'import' motorcycles of similar capacity. Actually, let me take that back: Harley Davidson used to make motorcycles...now they sell and aggressively promote an image. Motorcycles are incidental to their main business.

Do a Google search on the company and you'll likely stumble across materials on the company's groundbreaking success in the field of marketing -- they're a case study, one included in many business and marketing courses. The story of how the company went from failing motorcycle manufacturer to economic juggernaut is an inspiring one, in a marketing sense, and they did not do it by building better bikes or finally overhauling antiquated engine designs...nope, they did it by selling Harley Davidson as an image, a packaged image. This is no secret and no jab on my part -- it was a conscious move that payed off. Paid off big time. In doing so they played into the whole idea of Americanism, never mind that many of the components on today's Harleys come from Japan, and the widespread xenophobic-racist aspect of many Harley owners (not just in the US) who sneer at 'Jap crap' and 'riceburners' as not being real motorcycles or something that a real American should ride. Hell, that very reference even made it into a 1964 Elvis movie! The anti-Japanese or natiionalist/jingoist sentiment of some Harley riders has been around a long time, even since when the company's offerings were technologically relevant and not mere props for a midlife crisis.

I should point out that the typical Harley owner of today is a lot different than the people who used to ride them. The Harley has become part and parcel of midlife crises, mostly for people who can afford them (hence the proliferation of lawyers and doctors who ride them these days...the RUB, or Rich Urban Biker), and is no longer the province of grimy bikers who knew how to ride and had oil and grease under their fingernails. There're still some of these old archetypes about on Harleys, but they're becoming outnumbered. Many, too, have now abandoned Harley Davidson (as they, themselves, felt abandoned by the company when it underwent its transformation) for big Japanese cruisers. The attitudes of many of the newcomers, to a great extent, sucks. And if you think I'm disdainful of it you should hear what some of the old-school Harley riders and ex-Harley riders think of these people.

Many of these nouveau Harley owners are even more vociferously contemptuous of other brands of motorcycles than the old Harley dudes used to be (and, really, in my experience that was always a rare thing...the real riders tended to respect motorcycles that were clearly capable, no matter their origin or brand, especially out on the open road) and an awful lot of their apparent feelings of superiority is pure snobbishness, related at least in part to the fact that they seem proud to have paid so much (or have been able to afford) for their bikes. Shoot...they should be embarrassed, if anything. Then again, I've seen the same with -- to borrow from my primary field of experience -- many American SCUBA divers who sneer at people wearing gear less expensive than their own, no matter that the diver with the less pricey gear can dive circle around them. It's a human trait, for sure, but it seems very strongly American. Snobbery on the basis of economics happens elsewhere, is what I'm saying, but I think it's reached its full expression in the USA. It's encouraged thusly here, by the media and by marketers. It's probably a big reason why most Harley riders today rarely return a wave -- the motorcyclists' wave is a sacred thing, in any country -- if you're riding a Japanese bike.

Hell, I've had people who don't even ride come up to me and ask me why I don't have a 'real' motorcycle. They're blinded, already by the image of Harley even though they don't ride and in all likelihood couldn't afford (or wouldn't pay) to be a member of the Harley-owners' club. I've come up with a few zingers for the Harley owners who've expressed contempt for my mount, too, or for anything that isn't made in Milwaukee. The next time one of them expresses his unwanted opinion, I'll challenge him to a race...to the New Mexico border. That should take care of it... :D

These days the Japanese (and other, though Japanese marques dominate the market and tend to be less expensive) companies produce cruisers -- like the Honda VTX mentioned upthread -- that are beautiful bikes. They look suitably Harley-ish, they have shaft drive (low, low maintenance), and their engines are just magnificent. I'm not into cruisers, but even I would consider something like the VTX -- it's surprisingly inexpensive (less than comparable sport bikes) and is just a freakin' gorgeous piece of motorcycle. It's Honda, too, and that means it's about as reliable as anything with an engine can be. I ride a Kawasaki now, but my Honda bike gave me zero problems and my impression is that, among even the reliable Japanese brands, Honda is king of reliability (just as Kawasakis tend to be kings of speed and sheer, raw power -- and traditionally characterized by lacking a little or a lot in the braking department!). They're smoother, faster (much), quieter, more reliable, and all together far better engineered than any of the Harleys. They're also available for $10000 or less for a 1300cc powerplant, a third of the price of most of the underpowered Harleys (before customization and additional chroming) that I see. Kinda makes you wonder why anyone who knows anything about motorcycles, or even basic personal economics, would buy a Harley these days.

The fact that Harleys are overpriced and undercapable just makes that disconnect more jarring. It doesn't mean that all Harley riders today are image-obsessed lemmings -- we have some here on DU that decidedly are not and I know some in my own life -- but I submit that perhaps the majority these days are and, further, that they are proud of it. Just like the proud individualists who, in adopting The Look (whatever it is...it changes over time, from punk fashions to piercings and whatever), manage to conform quite handily. All those image-conscious individualists tend to look the same. Look at a gathering of Harley people and all you'll see, on every little thing from bandanas to gloves to boots, is the company's logo. I've seen people on Harleys who very obviously were novice riders, who essentially didn't even know how to ride, but who were decked out in sparkling new HD merchandise from head to toe. Very sad.

Out on the open road you'll see very few Harleys. The further you get from cities, the fewer you'll see. So much for the crossing-America Easy Rider thing. Even the big tour rigs, like the classic Electra Glide, are a rare sight out there. Today's Harley rider (and, as elsewhere here, I am talking about what I perceive as the majority, not every rider) is not really much of a rider at all. Even those who used to ride Japanese bikes in their youth or today keep and ride a Japanese or European bike tend to trailer their Harleys up and drive them to wherever they're going. It's not just that the bikes tend to be mechanically unreliable and uncomfortable (in some ways...in other ways some models are very plush) but they just are not riders. In their heart, they're not motorcyclists. It's not the journey, for them, but the destination...and when they get to their destination they roll the Harley out, break out the biker fancy-dress costumes, and trundle off to pose somewhere, whether Daytona, Sturgis, or wherever. To me, they miss the whole point. I use my bike primarily as utilitarian transport but, still, there is nothing like quickly covering vast distances in a place like the United States, just you and your motorcycle. They go on about freedom, which is presumably why they wear impractical 'safety' clothing and stupid little beanies (or nothing on their head) and rattle on about the wind in their hair, but someone like me, confined in Darth-Vader-like leather and fiberglass safety gear, is experiencing a lot more freedom when I rip past their car and bike trailer out there in the boonies.

These days, in the course of my job on the Las Vegas Strip, I see and get to know a lot of Harley people. Some of those bikes are works of art, no doubt. But until I started this work I had no idea just how fully the poseur label applies. Seriously -- these people ride to a place, park their bikes (all together -- they tend to be herd animals) and will literally sit there and pose for hours on end. I'm talking four or five hours, easily. I don't know if they're hoping to attract women -- some are, I know -- or just anybody who'll admire their spotlessly shiny bikes, but I have to wonder about all of this. Really...are their lives that empty or boring that they have to come and pose --literally pose -- for hours each night, several nights a week (some of them, anyway, appear that often but other just pose on the weekend nights), like that? Some of the sportbike brats are just as bad...they have their own spots where they pose by or on their bikes for hours, the only real action being to loudly rev their engines every now and then or take off, en masse, for a noisy blast into traffic (usually displaying just how bad and stupid they are as riders, with much unnecessary revving) before returning five minutes later. It makes me sick, kind of, because I actually ride my bike. Call me crazy, but where I come from motorcycles are things you ride, not just fashion accessories. So when I say 'posers,' I mean it quite literally...more literally than I thought before, even.

I pose for a living. These people pose for some other reason. In fact, some of them put in more hours each night than I do in my job.

I mentioned "where I come from" above. I think that's perhaps important. In other countries the motorcycle is a practical means of getting around. For many, as it is for me again now, it's the only form of motorized transport that the person has. In those countries, though some people do still ride for the joy of it, motorcycles are seen as serious and legitimate means of transport and the attitudes about them tend to reflect that fact. There are plenty of American-born-and-raised riders who feel the same way, but apparently they don't ride Harleys...or, if they do, they actually ride them and put some miles on the odometer rather than use them as props or some kind of Viagra substitute. Talk about a 'male-enhancement' device.

Not that it's just males (and their 'old ladies'): the other night I saw a Harley babe pull up on a magnificent beast (I don't know what model...I can't tell most Harleys apart) and parked it after turning on the little LED lights around the engine that some Harley people lately seem to have installed to, presumably, show off some of that expensive chrome. She was dressed in leather from head to toe but it was tailored, not armored or otherwise unseemly in its bulk. Still, it gave her abrasion advantage over her male peers, most of whom wore the Hells-Angel-style leather vests with variations on the HD logo and American flag thereon. Her jacket had 'Harley Davidson" spelled out on the back with rhinestones. Her beanie was covered completely in clear rhinestones...it looked like a disco ball (in fact, at first I thought it was a male rider approaching and I got all excited that he was secure enough in his manliness to wear such a thing, or perhaps was the leader of some militant gay biker gang). And she wore high heels. Not sandals, at least, but boots with two or three inches of spiky heel...anyone who actually rides a motorcycle knows that high heels are not only not suited to riding but are very, very dangerous. So stupid. Oh, yeah: among the men who were there that night were some chopper owners (talk about impractical and dangerous...extreme choppers with their high apehangers and extra-long forks are a handling disaster), one of which, when he left, slipped on -- under his pseudo-WWII-German helmet -- a black and white death's-head mask. Yeah, really. I suppose he thought he looked cool, but all I could think when I saw him was "what a monumental f***ing doofus."

And then there's the whole issue of those pathetic f***ing beanies that Harley riders favor. Riders of other cruisers often do, too, and even a few sportbike riders share the same illness. It doesn't take a brain surgeon (whose services may well be required by anyone who crashes while wearing these stupid things) to realize that these fiberglass skullcaps would be absolutely useless as protection in an accident. I don't want to digress any more than I may have already but, speaking as one who would definitely be dead if not for wearing proper helmets, anyone who'd wear such a device (or nothing) is a fool. Even more so if they're wearing helmets that are loosely modeled after WWII German infantry helmets (always the height of irony to see a black man on a Harley, wearing a 'Nazi'-style helmet) or Viking helmets (not that the real Vikings wore the ones with the big horns) that, if anything, would only increase risk of injury. So not only are they totally ineffective as protection but they look f***ing stupid. Who ever said that beanies, of any kind, look cool? Does it make the wearers feel cool, to be sneaking under the legal radar by sporting fiberglass headgear (fiberglass yarmulkes, is more like it)? It damn sure looks stupid to me. I mean, the whole wind-in-the-hair thing is largely thwarted by these pathetic pieces of crap, anyway, so why not go all the way to a real helmet, at least a three-quarters style if not a full-face helmet?

If we can unravel the mystery of how something so ineffectual and, as a bonus, stupid-looking came to be 'cooler' than helmets that are both streamlined and protective, perhaps we will have solved the question posed in the original post. After all, we see victories of style over substance all the time in this country, but in this case there isn't even any style. I can only assume that, in their groupthink mentality, these rugged individualists are denying the inherent geekiness of their beanies and redefining it as 'cool'...after all, everyone else has one, and we all ride Harleys, so we're cool and, therefore, so are our beanies!

If I had my way, not only would helmet use by motorcyclists be mandatory for all ages at a Federal level but the helmets would have to be effective protection (bye-bye, beanies and wannabe-SS helmets) and worn properly (unlike the stupid sportbike 'squid' I saw a couple of nights ago, his $400 graphic-intense full-face helmet perched atop his empty head).

Someone close to me used to harp on about my protective gear, and how I looked like 'an alien' in it and how it wasn't 'cool.' She'd go on and on, pointing out that everyone else riding motorcycles out there was doing it in T-shirts and sandals to the point where I got tired of reasoning with her (first because plenty of riders were tooling about with leather gear on, at least on sport bikes hereabouts, and second because, regardless, I don't care what others are doing) and just told her the unvarnished truth, that many of those people were f***wits. I've crashed before...I know what it's like, and I know what to wear to avoid unnecessary injury. She finally relented but would still get a dig in, even passively-agressively by admitting that she was out driving and saw what I meant about many motorcycle riders wearing leather jackets and gloves but "why don't you just wear jeans, then, instead of the leather pants?" Drove me crazy. She defines herself by what others do and think -- she's unabashedly conscious of it, too -- whereas I am her polar opposite in that respect. For her, her dress, her demeanor, and even much of her expressed belief and opinion comes directly from what is trendy. It's like she has people running focus groups and polls to determine how she should think and how she should look and act. To her, it was important -- and shameful -- that I stood out from most motorcyclists here in Vegas (heavily infested by posers) whereas to me it was totally irrelevant. Actually, more recently another woman close to me started to give me a little grief (just a taste, thank goodness) about the same thing...not that she's anything like this other person (for all I know, she was speaking metaphorically and telling me I should take more risks in my life), but it did make me wonder if there was some gender thing going on here, because I've never received that kind of opinion from a male (other than the universal "you must be hot!"). More likely, men see my armored leatherclad person approaching them and -- especially as tall and broad as I am -- think "cool: it's the Terminator." Either way, image trumps function.

For the record, she's said that she might get a motorcycle one day, a Harley. She's got no interest in riding and has never done it, but is ready to walk into a Harley dealership and (if she can get the sales people to talk to her...many dealerships have a terrible reputation for service and attitude because their products are in such demand and the sales staff don't seem to feel the need to be civil or helpful...this new attitude's helped drive many an old-time Harley dude to a Japanese bike) plonk down a ton of money, even wait several months for delivery, because she wants her Harley. I explained to her why Harleys are a poor choice -- inherently and because they're too big for a learner -- but she doesn't care. She is, unabashedly, all about image. And it's not just because she grew up in Beverly Hills -- I think this attitude is a widespread one in this country (not endemic, but certainly more ingrained and extreme than in other countries) and the clever marketing people who resurrected Harley Davidson damn well knew that.

By the way, more recently she's expressed a desire to get a scooter -- I guess they're now more trendy and, besides, as she says, they're 'cute' -- and she won't listen to my concerns for her safety. She won't, for example, countenance any talk of her wearing a helmet...she wants the wind in her hair, she wants her face to be visible, and she wants her hair not to be compressed by a helmet when she gets to where she's going. She needs to just stick to her car. Scooters tend to be inherently more dangerous than traditional motorcycles and the only thing more dangerous than viewing such vehicles as toys is viewing them as fashion accessories.

I ride a high-performance Japanese motorcycle and I wear leather. Leather is functional. My jacket, my pants, my boots, and my gloves are all armored. I wear it all the time, no matter the temperature...full leathers from head to toe and fingertip. It's not a poseur thing. But, on the other hand, why do I wear black leather? Why not pink? There's a reason I don't wear the multicolored one-piece racing leathers -- they're just not practical when you're running around doing errands and on and off the bike as you use it for commuting (I was not in a hurry to look like a Grand Prix rider, either, to tell the truth) -- so there's undoubtedly a degree of consciousness regarding appearance in my motorcycling sartorial choices, though it's a matter of degree and no way can someone dressed like me be equated to the pseudo-gang stylings of the Harley mainstream. Besides, I like black clothing and black leather. And I'm a traditionalist in matters of leather -- my collection of wetsuits, too, is uniformly black or blue, harkening back to the dominant neoprene colors available when I started diving. I wear leather because it's still the best material for the job and I wear black because it's my choice. It should be noted that leather vests, with bare arms -- as is the standard Harley warm-weather uniform (and you see orders of magnitude more Harleys on the road during warm weather than you ever will in cooler temperatures) -- are not functional safety garb.

My brother owns an Italian cruiser, a beautiful Moto-Guzzi. It's in a class of motorcycles probably even more oriented toward promoting posing: whether a Harley or a Japanese or Italian design, cruisers tend to be bikes ridden around town, posed on heavily, and the riders usually wear three-quarter helmets at best. But he wears plain black leathers and a full-face helmet just as he did when riding the Hondas and BMWs he used to ride for pleasure, for transport, and (for a while) as a motorcycle courier.

Posing is, however, almost inevitable when you've got a motorcycle, at least to some degree. Sort of comes with the territory -- always has. But posing is the whole point of motorcycle ownership for most of today's Harley 'riders.' They're not the only ones, though -- I've long been disturbed by the American mindset that motorcycles are toys, not to be taken seriously. It's a dangerous mindset and is why you see sport-bike riders zipping along in just shorts and (where it's mandatory) a helmet. And it's often a very expensive helmet. Again, although some of the lite full-face helmets are overpriced for a reason, in the sport-bike community helmets are seen by some as status symbols, as much as the motorcycles themselves, and that is also very much in line with the premise of the original post in this thread.

The American view of motorcycles as toys is also why so many young men can't wait to jump on to a 1000-cc Suzuki right at the outset, the big superbike being a far more prestigious learner's mount than an 'unsexy' 250-cc bike -- these people are idiots, uninformed, or swayed by peer-group pressure but, either way, it's another clear-case victory of image over sense. In the US, nowadays, such morons who ride like idiots in traffic, usually toting little in the way of protective gear and whether capable riders or out-of-their-league novices, are called 'squids' by other riders. To make matters worse, some unethical sales associates at motorcycle dealers allegedly try to push higher-capacity bikes on to these people...shoot, what acne-ridden, voice-cracking adolescent isn't going to want the big Ninja so they can be like Tom Cruise in Top Gun and reel in the chicks and get respect from their wingmen? Sorry, dudes....it's my experience that having a big sport bike will only get you admiring looks and comments from other males, of all ages, because chicks seem to mostly dig Harleys and other cruisers. Yeah, it was a disappointment to me, too. Small comfort when some 20-year-old's just smeared his outer layer of unprotected skin and flesh down the road like a trail of strawberry jam while trying to pull a wheelie in traffic on a bike he had no business riding.

In the end, it's not about Harleys because these sport-bike poseurs are the same people, just usually 20 years younger. They both rev their engines when they shouldn't (the difference being that some Harleys' exhaust notes will rattle your teeth and actually hurt the ears, and when they first start off it can sound like a gun going off), like when they're in neutral or even when they're doing something like backing the bike up. There's no reason to rev a motorcycle engine unless it's accelerating. Anyone who sits there revving their engine is an idiot. Some of the sport-bike types I encounter will sit there, in neutral, revving their engines to what sounds like redline...I guess they like the scream of the engine, but all I hear is the pained shriek of a doomed engine, complete with misfires. Stupid.

Sure, the sport-bike posers may own bikes that are technically superior, but they don't own them for any constructive reason. They, like many or most of today's Harley types, are playing dress-up.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #113
129. that is just an excellent post
Edited on Fri Sep-22-06 10:40 PM by Jcrowley
bravo!
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
116. lookers demand conformity
look at that one's different. Thank god for the internet, clearly god
designed it using the hands of humans that they might transcend their
own primitivity. In one generation, in the proper hands, the education
medium (could) uplift a world to literacy like no previous technology.

And we're yet to see how the sparking noises of the politically
unheard ripple out, after a millenia of being erased by kings censors unpent.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
118. Culture of Consumption

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Nutmegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Maybe they can tag along with Condi?!
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
125. Outlaws, Ltd.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
126. With All Due Respect, The Tomato Doesn't Deserve To Be Hit By Your Head.
That's gotta be one of the most narrow-minded sentiments I've yet to see expressed on DU. I'm sorry you truly believe those things.
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