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Yesterday, I Bought a Gun.

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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:51 AM
Original message
Yesterday, I Bought a Gun.
It's a nice .223 mod. What did I buy it for you ask? Protection, nope. Hunting, nope. Harm to Others, Nope. I bought it for the day in my life when a war comes to my backdoor. I plan to keep it safe and very secure from my family and never intend to use it until either the Republican Army or the christians come knocking on my door.

With that said, if they come with hostility, I'll blow their kneecaps off.

However, what if this "conflict" never happens, what will I do with this gun? It's simple, I'll be buried with it and a copy of the Constitution because that's what its all about, loving your country, and making sure you and yours are safe.

For when the sword is mighter than the pen, you will live to see another day.

PS, I hope there are some ammo stores availabe during the apocolypse. Oh wait, we'll have the big black L on our shoulder so we won't be able to buy ammo.

Fun times are ahead.

True Notes.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. They steal another election and we'll all be buying guns.
I'm just say'n...
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I feel that.
Also, you might want to look out your window to make sure no Black SUV's are pulling up. :D
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Nothing to fear.
I'm just saying that another round of Republican rule and we'll all have to become survivalists, 'cuz they don't seem to understand their responsibility to the public when catastrophe hits.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. How many do they have to steal before it is serious?
They stole 2000 and 2004 and lied their asses off for 2002.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
98. Maybe we should watch Mexico to see how this duplicate government
works out for them. Anyway you look at it, the next Democratic presidential candidate should be ready to send their own people to troubled areas, and should go balls to the wall with challenges.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
135. No. Maybe Some Extremist Whackos, But Not Most Of Us.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. you think one gun is going to save you from the Govt if they want you???
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 10:54 AM by LSK
Can you say tanks?

:shrug:
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Hur Hur No Shit
It's definitely futile, but I'll give em a run for their money. It's funny what a good ol' boy from Tennessee with a mission can do.

Hey, I'll tell you one other thing, there's a hippy farm about 30 miles from where I live. Hell I'll just head down there. The feds never mess with their "Hemp" production.

know what i'm sayin
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
126. like what zapata said
i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

yep.

at least you can go down in a hail of automatic gunfire knowing you have some kind of honor and dignity.
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Parisle Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Russian soldiers refused to fire on their countrymen...
---- And American soldiers, except for a few nutcases, will do so, too. In fact, it is highly unlikely that the Pentagon would follow the neocons down the path to military dictatorship. Not everyone is as crazy as the PNAC.

---- But just for the record, the American population is just about the best-armed civilian population on Earth. Those attempting to enforce widespread martial law would be faced off against 30-40 million armed Americans,.... who, after the first week, would have M-16's, too.

---- Thomas Jefferson could scarcely have imagined where history and technology would lead, but he understood human nature. 2nd amendment gun rights are not about hunting or recreation.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. Some of the guys I work with have some serious firepower...
M16's, AK-47s, etc.

I say "bring 'em on."
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
87. Historically amerikan soldiers have never refused to fire on their
countrymen. In every instance from the very beginning of this nation, when ordered to, our military has indeed fired on and killed fellow amerikans.

To get an idea of just how well armed we are, consider this, Africa (a continental hell-hole if ever there was one) has just over 10% of the number of firearms that we know about here.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Can you say microwave? Who needs tanks! nt
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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. Look at the Viet Cong, or the Iraqi insurgents.
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 12:39 PM by meldroc
The most powerful military force in the world was and is unable to destroy what amounts to a few angry guys with guns.

Back in 1776, the most powerful army and navy of its day was unable to destroy a group of angry men with guns who decided they were sick of getting pushed around.

You have to use some strategy - hit & run attacks, ambushes, lead those huge powerful armies on wild goose chases, but yes, "angry men with guns" can fight big armies with tanks and win if they're smart.

As far as a personal arsenal goes, I'd recommend one handgun (concealable defensive weapon,) one 12 gauge shotgun, and one rifle such as an AR-15, Kalashnikov, M-1 Garand or SKS.

Even if you don't get that far, you can at least demonstrate to the bastards that just as freedom isn't free, fascism also comes with a price, in blood.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. LSK, can you say Guerilla warfare?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. Two guns. I bought one as well.
The Afghanis fought off the Red Army with weapons left over from WW I. Anyway, I don't plan to be in one place long enough to any tank people to know where I am. It's for running more than standing and fighting. Marlin 1894C 0.357 Mag. Good for at least 100 yards. Easy to maintain.
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
106. I did that last summer
Keltec sub 2000 folding carbine
great up to 100 yards
takes Glock .40 caliber magazines
the kind most cops carry
find a dead cop
fuck ammo stores
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #106
114. You may be on
to something there!
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #106
143. Jesus. "Find a dead cop"
Were you masturbating when you typed that?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
90. Yadda yadda yadda. How many examples do you want of determined people,
armed with nothing more than light arms, defeating the overwhelming force of empire?
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
129. They don't send tanks after one person
Take a look at Iraq. We got the tanks, they got Kalashnikovs. Who's winning?
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
131. how are all those tanks working out in Iraq.....???
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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. JOIN THE NRA NOW!!!!.....AND SHOW


Them that libs and progressives beleieve in the right to bare arms.....
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. That's like throwing a Snake in a Lions den
Nah, I'm a personal owner, and I never will shoot the damned thing. It's just a reminder of the fight we are putting up.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. erm, you might want to learn how to use it and regularly update
your skills. Just saying, "bad guys" aren't going to wait for you to remember how to reload, aim and such.
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I'm very Proficient On a Rifle and Pistol
Want to see my current Qualifications :).

Remember, the people who are training me will train them. I know what's going on.

hehe, it's called "Strategery".

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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. I see below you have other guns, from your OP, it kind of sounded
like it was a new experience and you were just going to put it in a closet "until you needed it" - not a good plan. Didn't mean any disrepect.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
69. I was about to post the same advice too.
Someone who does not know how to shoot, and more importantly be safe with a loaded weapon is a recipe for disaster.

-Hoot
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. 'the right to bare arms.....'
Only in warm weather, however. ;)
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. Lol, thanks, I was wondering if anyone caught it. n/t
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cool user name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
134. I support:
Our right to bear arms and our right to arm bears! ;)
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Yeah, join the NRA... so they can use your dues to elect Republicans.
Sure, I'm all over that.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
44. Lets satrt the DRA !!!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. The NRA?
Why would I want to join a group that votes for a white supremacist president?

That's like asking me to join the Republicans.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. bare legs, too
lol
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
94. I'm totally into owning firearms....
... and have procured quite a collection. And lots of ammo too :)

But I don't care for the NRA. At all, so I'll pass on that.
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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
7. Only one?
The carbine will serve you well and that ammo is plentiful and cheap, just don't wait to stock up.

Now, a decent holster weapon will round things out.
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well, No.
I have an .22-250,Colt AR-15, AK-47 Black Stock, Beretta 9mm, .22 Hornet, Benelli Tactical 12 Guage and a great shooting 30.06 to boot.

But they are hanging around until I get my house built in TN.

I just have the 223 here in Biloxi.
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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. hehe, you all set
As the once oldest living American well into his hundreds, Charlie Smith, said the key was:

Figure out whats you need and gets more before you runs out.
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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. There's not that many that remember Charlie.
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 12:11 PM by lpbk2713



He was a local celebrity around here where I live in Central Florida.




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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. There Are Many Causes I Will Die For
There Are None I Will Kill For.
(Well, to defend my wife & kid - forgive me, Mahatma, but some of us find it hard to be Saints.)
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I didn't say I would kill them
I'd just blow their knee caps off. What they do after that is up to them. :evilgrin:
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Brian Stevens Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
80. To some events, you might not have a choice.
Gotta vent your hate one way or another.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Kneecapping was historically done by the IRA to mark traitors
Single or double, and for the really dirty traitors they used a drill.

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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
91. That's the $64,000 dollar question
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 05:22 PM by meldroc
It's one thing to die for a cause. Giving your own life to a cause is certainly a hefty sacrifice. But taking another's life is the one thing that for any civilized human being, should be even harder than sacrificing one's own life.

But would you kill? What would you kill for? If you're talking about bearing arms, you MUST answer this question. What is "killing for a just cause?" and how is that different from murder?

Would you kill to protect your family?

Would you kill to protect yourself?

Would you kill for your country?

Would you kill to protect yourself and your family from your country?

Would you kill for abstract causes such as liberty?

When do you stop killing?

Is it worth it?

Sadly, the fact that I too own firearms, for nearly the same purposes as the OP gives you an idea where I am leaning when answering these questions... How have things come to this?
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bandb 88 Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. one of
these days i am going to get one for the same reason i would never use it except for hunting if the end of economy happens in my life time hard to believe i could see the end of the grocery store. you know hard to believe i could live to see the end of america.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
16. Shoot their kneecaps off??
You wimp. -- aim between the eyes. :silly:
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. That's way to quick.
You want them to suffer and be incapicitated, just to make an example.

For example, prime spots to hit are:
Pressure Points
Lobal Regions
Soft Abdomen
Reproductive Organs (that 223 will ring some bells down there)
and my favorite:
Joints

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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
54. Head shots are for fools & snipers
Since most of us aren't trained shooters:

Keep your pattern center mass.
Pop at least 2 caps -- Don't get off one shot, then stop to see if you hit'em. Knock'em down!
And for Godsake don't pull the movie stunt of throwing your weapon down and running away! If I see that one more time ...
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
70. Pop at least 2?
I say unload it, center of mass.

-Hoot
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
17. Never owned one & historically against them, but I think you did
the right thing. The revolution may not be a peaceful one.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
20. My dad has been buying guns too
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. I've seen several such postings
and while viscerally it rings a true bell, I have to wonder internally, when will it ever be used? I think the slow creep, the gradual erosion of rights will result in a war that will be lost without a shot fired. I don't think the jack-booted thugs will ever appear at your (or my) door. They'll just lull us into complacency with TV, Fast-food, SUVs and mountains of debt. Hell, we are already, for all practical considerations, assimilated. When is it time to fight back? 5 years ago.
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. One Last Message Before I'm Off to Work
I'll reply in a civil manner.

I am an independent man, with an independent family. I rely only on oil to get myself to places. I've been very successful in everything I do only because I refuse to fall into complacency, however I feel empowered to help those who have.
The struggle hasn't even started against what is going on in our clueless, yet alive nation.

I pay my taxes, however we grow our food organically in the basement, and I am an avid outdoorsman. I know how to survive on no food, and feed my family nature's best. Not many Americans can do that any more, and only the ones who do know how will survive. We are animals in a cushioned evironment, but we still have instinct.

We are a YOUNG NATION, and many wars and battles will be fought internally to further the American agenda, and what that will be in the future, no one knows. History will repeat itself much like it has in countries such as Italy, Ireland, and even the United States, because we are each other's advesaries. We as a nation will be very volatile for another period after this, because transistion time is always on edge.

I cannot stress the ability and urgency of being prepared for the worst. I'm not living a Hollywood dream down here, I'm living the real deal, preparing for the day when survival is mano e' mano. I've had it with the nonsensical agenda in this country and I'm only 21 years old. Many people feel the same way I do.

It's coming, the red sky will turn black soon, and I want to see the end.

=TN

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #26
116. I hear ya! I know there are many
who feel that way and I'm glad ya'll are out there!

That must be some basement to grow your food organically!
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cool user name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
137. Well said and I have thought the same way ...
but it never hurts to be prepared.
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The Sleeper Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. A gun is only one option.
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 11:27 AM by The Sleeper
And sometimes it's the ONLY option.


But, at this point in time, there are other things to be concerned about and plan for. For instance, there's no doubt the blog-o-sphere has hurt these bastards. What happens if they decide to take it down under the guise of some free market bullshit? We all KNOW the corporate media hates the competition. One day DU just doesn't come up anymore. What multiplies our strength is the ability to communicate and get the truth out. It would be prudent to have other options available, wouldn't it ?
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
27. Become proficient and ready to use it because the man down the street...
is to cheap (some say poor, others say thrifty) to buy any fancy firearms and sees no problem with your storing his weapons until he retrieves them at the time of his choosing. He believes "Never take a knife to a gunfight" is simply a foolish Hyperbole.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. I'll just grab "The Raptured's" guns
A big barrel full. Crunchy like gunola.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
50. If the rapture happens, there will be no need.
Assholes gone, problem solved.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
136. Favorite bumper sticker... STILL!
"Rapture schmapture
Go already"

Reigning champion of the bumper sticker wars!
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
30. "...I'll be buried with it and a copy of the Constitution...."
:patriot:
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. You can stay and fight...or you can emigrate.
Panama is looking more and more likely for full-time retirement for us.
Our house will be done by next spring. Our son graduates high school in 08. After that? We may move to Panama permanently.

BTW, I just got an e-mail saying the GDP for the first 6 months of the year in Panama was 7.9%. GDP for 2007 predicted at >6%. (US GDP figures are about 1/2 of these)

Panama is booming. This fall the country votes on building a third set of locks for the Canal.

Panama is not just for retirees.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Got a link to Panama's immigration?
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Best links:
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 01:00 PM by mnhtnbb
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Thanks
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. One more link
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
57. How's the cost of living down there?
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. much less expensive than U.S.
At the end of this article, there's a pretty good list of prices (April 05)
for a basket of goods

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/69/Investment_In_Panam...
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. I must say you've sparked my curiosity.
I was just watching an Extreme Engineering show over the weekend, and I couldn't help thinking that would be a nice place to live. The job market has got to be pretty god for anyone with an engineering background...
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. If you have to shoot aim for the center of the body.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Negative. Even burglars can get body armor now.
It would be pretty unusual for a home invader to wear it, but it is available and pistol bullets will not penetrate it. Anyone more organized that common street crime is likely to have body armor. Aim for the head unless your assailant is moving.
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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
71. Yep, and if you're going to use your gun to fight fascists,
those fascists are likely to be in the form of a SWAT team, so you'll want to aim for the head, as the torso will be heavily armored.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
88. 223 will penetrate soft armor and ceramic plate is not in
general distribution. Even if the agressor is wearing it (like SWAT Teams), it will still knock the wind out of them.
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Ex Lion Tamer Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. I used to be adamantly anti-gun.
No more.

I haven't bought a gun yet, but I've thought about it.
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
39. *shrug*
Always been neutral on gun issues, mostly b/c I am around responsible, educated users of said guns, which I am sure you wish to be as a good Dem and citizen :)

Just make sure you seek out training for its use and set out ground rules for your family re: guns (even though they may not know you have one/where it is)

"Every weapon is a loaded weapon," etc.

Don't know if anyone is recommending the NRA upthread (lol) but truthfully they have good info, classes, and programs regarding their pet subject.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. DAG! My Independent (was Right-leaning, not anymore!) neighbor
bought a shotgun Saturday.

Same reason.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
47. It's gettin' deep in here and alas, I don't have my boots!
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
123. Your jack-boots?
You shouldn't listen to everything that Limballs says. Gun ownership is related to region/urban vs rural rather than conservative vs Liberal.

BTW, I forgot to congratulate you for reaching 1000 posts w/o ever discussing 1 Democratic or Liberal idea. That's some neat trick on a progressive message board.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
51. So now you're just like them.
And in the end, it will be impossible to distinguish the difference.

I could never shoot another human being. And when the day comes when a gun is the only means of working things out, they can have me.

Shame.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
67. "... they can have me"
I could never shoot another human being. And when the day comes when a gun is the only means of working things out, they can have me.


:(
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. Oh they'll "have you" alright...
I weep for the future of this nation...
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honorsdaddy Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
124. Gregorian...
If you're unwilling to fight for your beliefs, you may as well start supporting the beliefs of those who will.

Either that or just find a comfortable casket ahead of time.

I don't know where people got the idea that being a coward, er i mean, "pacifist", was a noble ideal. To me it is nothing more than laziness.

After all, i'm sure you wouldn't mind OTHERS fighting for the things in which you believe.
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marano35 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
139. and how do you think
you became an American in the first place....someone who was not an American at the time used a gun to make himself an American instead of an Englisman.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
52. AR-15? Mini-14? Kel-Tec SU-16? The suspense is killing me!
:evilgrin:
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
95. Yeah..
... me too. :)
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
55. I recently bought one too...
It's a nice .40cal Ruger Semi-Auto, and it scares the living hell out of me. I've taken it out the the shooting range a few times now and there are no questions that it will obliterate anything unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end. I hope to God that never happens, but I'm starting to feel a sense of security when I think about the fundamentalist nut jobs taking to the streets to bring us all to Jesus... If you start pushing your religious ideology on the rest of us, or dicking around with our civil rights, you'd best skip my place...
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. pistol or carbine?
Not that it really matters.
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. P944 Pistol
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jeffuppy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
61. Since no one is saying it...
Man, you are wrong. You have no more likelihood of protecting youself at the point of a gun than America does of spreading freedom and democracy at the point of one. It's far more likely to eventually be used to kill some 11 year old neighbor kid. That's just what happens. Peace is the answer. Really.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. How do you know? (just asking)
Sure, peace is the answer. What happens if it fails? I guess it will be peaceful after all the liberals are taken out and shot. I guarantee that I will never shoot my neighbor's 11 year old kid unless he or she is actually breaking into my house. People are not stupid and like voting and jury service, firearm ownership is an incident of a free, self-governing society. I really don't think that a uniform or a governmental title makes a person any more trustworthy with guns than I am. Somethings are just more important than absolute safety.
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jeffuppy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I don't know about you individually
I just know it's statistically more likely.


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honorsdaddy Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
125. Jeffpuppy...
you said

"Man, you are wrong. You have no more likelihood of protecting yourself at the point of a gun than America does of spreading freedom and democracy at the point of one. It's far more likely to eventually be used to kill some 11 year old neighbor kid. That's just what happens. Peace is the answer. Really"

I submit to you that you're the one who is wrong. For starters, your claim that a gun is more likely to kill some kid than be used to protect yourself has zero basis in fact. Fact is, there are fewer than 1000 accidental deaths involving firearms annually, and of those, something on the order of less than ~100 involve children. On the other side of that, guns are used in self defense ~750,000 times per year (according to the DoJ anyway - some studies put the number as high as ~2.5 million).

So no, thats NOT what happens.

You claim "Peace is the answer"....to that I would respond "To what question?". Peace is NOT an absence of conflict, no matter how much you wish to believe that it is. If nothing else, history has shown us that the "peace at any price" crowd is virtually always in the wrong, or to say it with more wit, "those who refuse to beat their plowshares into swords will plow for those who do".
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jeffuppy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #125
130. honorsdaddy, Non-violence
does not mean non-resistance. I 'm not going to advocate non-violence as an absolute princple here - that is a fool's errand. But, as a general rule, the gains for justice made by use of violence are illusory and lack a sustainable underpinning. It is not only a bad choice ethically, it is usually a bad choice pragmatically.

In the U.S. our culture glorifies violence as a magnificent part of our great history. It's what all the heroes on TV and the movies use to thwart the bad guys. After all, it was at the point of a gun that we won our freedom from the Crown, right? We used violence to defeat fascism. Right? Not to mention the Evil Commies! But has it ever occurred to you that maybe these events were not so clear cut - and that all the killing was only a piece of the story in those struggles? Please consider that maybe larger and more powerful forces were at work in those conflicts, as they always are. Like the forces of reason, compromise, truth and human compassion for example. Major shifts in the direction of human events are propelled by more than the sword alone.

Maybe if our culture didn't glorify violence as a universal solution to human problems we wouldn't be as apt as a nation to condone it as a knee-jerk fix-all to political problems in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Picking up a gun is easy and self gratifying. Seeking non-violent solutions is a challenge.

Guns are used for self defense 750,000 times per year in the U.S.????? Huh? Better link to that one.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
62. Very macho, nt
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
65. and why not? guns are just tools...
As far as self-defense is concerned, tho, the kneecap is not a particularly good choice of target. It's small, less than two feet off the ground, and it moves around a lot. While you're busy plinking away at the assailant's kneecap, he's busy blasting away at your chest and head with his .45 -- not a pleasant thought at all!

:scared:
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
122. Hip shot.
Shatter the pelvic girdle and even the biggest, bad-assed, body armored assailant will drop like a ton of concrete (can't stay on your legs if there's nothing to support you).

Busting knee-caps is too gangsta and is too small a target.

Likewise, even though a clean head shot is a near certain kill, it also presents a not so easy target to hit (especially for someone who gets little range time in), if the recipient is moving, ducking, bobbing, weaving, etc .

Shooting center mass is all fine and well, but there's no guarantee it will be an incapacitating shot and if the person is within the 20' circle, they can still have enough forward momentum to cause bodily harm.

Once you take summa' bitches legs out from underneath him and he's doing the funky chicken on the pavement... well, you know. :smoke:
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
72. Good show.
It's not a gun, but an armed population that is the bulwark against tyranny.

--IMM
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Fierce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
73. Looking down that road, for a variety of reasons.
So I now have an air rifle to plink with. Doesn't hurt to know how to work one, and having no experience with guns whatsoever, I figured an air rifle was a good place to start.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
74. I just bought one myself on Saturday.
A CZ 70 to add to my collection.

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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
75. So if Jehovah's Witnesses
('Christians') come knocking at your door you will shoot them in the knees? A little extreme. How about just saying 'no thanks'?

And if the 'Republican Army' shows up (whatever that is) I guarantee you will hold up your hands over your head before engaging in a suicidal act which helps yourself or your family not at all. (I was a member of a Berkeley commune in the early 70s which practiced with firearms and talked about 'taking down the man' when they 'came for us'. Despite our big talk, every one of us would have crapped our pants had we actually been faced with 'the man' pointing a gun at us.) Perhaps you are different. But I doubt it.
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Brian Stevens Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Remember the old Votale' (I think thats what his name is) saying
If you don't die for a cause, you don't deserve to live.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #77
93. Remember Shakespeare's Falstaff:
"How then? Can honor set to a leg? No. Or an arm? No. Or take away the grief of a wound? No. Honor hath no skill in surgery, then? No. What is honor? A word. What is in that word, honor? What is that honor? Air."

'Henry IV'
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #93
118. I now understand why he had a beer named after him!
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #93
133. youre getting all philosophical on us
oh wait, bush doesn't make fun of people's smarts anymore, he says he reads tons! and several shakespeare's.
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
76. With whatever they
have now that pop-gun won't do you lick of good. Maybe shoulda took that grand and used it for something you can use.
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Brian Stevens Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. self deleted
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 04:07 PM by Brian Stevens
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Brian Stevens Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. Like grenades and such nt
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 04:08 PM by Brian Stevens
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. Perhaps you are not familiar with firearms. The .223 round is, in no way,
a popgun. The .30 rounds do have some advantages and would be the caliber I would choose (approximately 7mm for the metrically inclined) for the greater energy, but nobody weighing less than 600lbs. is going to do anything but writhe in pain and/or die catching a .223.
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Brian Stevens Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
78. It's gonna take a lot more than that. NT
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
79. I hear you......
Thanks true_notes I was just telling my wife the same thing the other day. I want a night scope too!


I hate violence but it might be time to rethink everything.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
84. Okay just don't keep it secure
as with any other skill you need to PRACTICE and you need to go down to the range and shoot some rounds off.

Also, EVERYBODY in your family, if they are old enough, needs to learn gun safety.

For instance, no gun is unloaded EVER... treat it as if it is loaded all the time

Oh and the only safety in any gun is in between your ears

Second, if you put gun sights on target, trick shots (knees) don't work. You must decide RIGHT NOW that if that happens and finger goes on trigger, target goes down, DEAD. End of discussion. If you realize that you cannot do that, please do all of us a favor and return that gun to the store.

Off rant mode now....



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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
85. You haven't mentioned anything about this, so I want to urge you to
get some serious range time in the near future and bring along everybody that lives with you.

Also, forget that kneecapping bullshit. If a situation really calls for gun play, you must kill them, or you will likely be killed. Many people have been killed by the people they shot before they themselves died. If you cannot bring yourself to do this, for Dog's sake get rid of the rifle before you become a statistic!
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Keypoint...as a civilian, if you are going to show it, use it.
If the situation has come to the use of deadly force, aim and fire immediately. No warning shots, no giving them time to be nice. Draw and shoot. Those who wait and try to talk the perps into leaving or surrendering are those most likely to be overwhelmed.

The flip side is that it takes a training to reach that level and regular practice to stay there.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
92. Kneecaps
Don't shoot for the Kneecaps. Hard to hit. All about the torso.
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Raydawg1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
96. alright, the smart thing would be to NOT TELL ANYONE
but you just couldn't help yourself
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
97. If they want you, they'll "Koresh" you
The public will hear a story about your armaments cache, and the police will surround
your house before dawn and break in with a huge hammer, and there you'll be standing
there in your underwear with your 223 as 3 trained shooters are closing on you from
all sides. They'll flashbang you and have you down in no time, maybe not living.

If you want to defend your family at close range, i would recommend rather a pump
shotgun, its got better chances of a hit when the adrenalin is 1000%, if you're really
concerned about intruders, even armed ones.

Another one is to not be there, and to take all the energy and power you're using to
defend youself (eneregy on shields), and putting that to finding another place to
live where this threat does not exist... what place is worth it, if you really
think that kind of thing is going to happen?
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
99. i am also armed with a .223
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 07:05 PM by Neo
M4 carbine. The perfect CQB weapon next to the MP5, but can 'reach out and touch someone' effectively at 300 meters. You may want a sidearm too, a 9mm or .45ACP, as a last ditch defense or for a suicide out in a no-win worst case scenario. In these insane times its a sane choice to have a service weapon to defend your home. It's what's commonly referred to an STHF scenario, or Shit Hit The Fan, when society collapses into turmoil from civil unrest, catastrophic disasters, tyrannical government, religious fanatics, or zombies rising from the dead.
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yorgatron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. just wanted to say hello to a fellow democratic gun owner.
i am surprised this hasn't been moved to the "gun dungeon" though...
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
101. The Japanese had a battle plan
that included WOUNDING as many as possible. If they just shot a man then he was just dead. BUT if you WOUND a man, then it takes TWO to carry them away (open targets), and 5 to repair the wounded person, TRIAGE, MASH, etc.

As for the Microwave units that will undoubtedly be used against the populace at some point, since we're all guinea pigs to them anyway, bring a roll of TIN FOIL, drop it to the ground as you hang onto the free end of the roll in front of your body - creating a shield, and not only will it offer some protection, it will also play havoc with the unit sending the microwaves, especially if a BUNCH of people aimed the waves right back at them.

Might get a little warm tho.

I've had military training, and I think that it might be a good idea for all Veterans on every block to meet and greet and have a plan, in case we're attacked by ahem, Terrorists with no US ARMY to protect us. Much like a Civil Defense Group of concerned citizens with a PLAN for KEEPING areas of the neighborhood, or even any city FREE.

I'm armed but not very willing to go up against a tank and a bunch of Darth Vaders. Doesn't mean I will die on my knees however.

Watch Catch 22 and listen to the old Italian man talking about beating every nation that occupied it. They are still there. :)

We REALLY DO need to start a Democratic NRA Org, it would blow their minds, give US a Voting Block, protect kids as we could demand trigger locks, and other safety features. I'd like to be a member of a gun club, but the NRA can kiss my ass, I'm anti Knuckle Draggers.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
102. Hey! At least that's more pro-active
than not watching ABC. I think a tad more realistic, even though probably useless in the end, since THEY have the real weapons.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
103. Practice (target shoot) With It Frequently
And buy lots of ammunition.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
104. Been thinking along those lines myself
What's been holding me back is the very extensive training I'll need so as not to be more of a danger to myself than others. (I'm not terribly well-coordinated, and I'll never, ever qualify for higher marksman levels.)
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Tenseiga Donating Member (100 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
105. The pen is mightier...
... than the sword, FOR ONE WHO USES BOTH PROFICIENTLY. (Completion of quote mine.)

Good for you. A few reccomendations.

1. Stock up on ammo. If you're convinced there's going to be a war, there will probably be martial law and the first thing to get shut down will be the gun shops.

2. Become proficient with this weapon. Be able to draw and shoot on instinct.

3. Maintain this weapon, and it will maintain you.

4. Get some proficiency in hand-to-hand combat skills. Anyone can point and fire a gun, but no plan ever makes it past first contact. As for me, beyond packing heat, I'm very practiced in kung-fu and aikido, plus my dual-sword skills will be vicious on anyone foolish enough to make me use them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
107. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #107
108. You call the discussion here laughable...
And then you talk about "sighting hearts and heads?" You fail, please try again. The head is maybe a little easier to hit than the kneecap, but if you try to aim for it while the combat shakes are coming on (and they will be when you cowards discover liberals who won't go down without a fight) you're going to catch a bullet in your right-wing ribcage.
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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. You Guys Take Things Too Literal....
Hey, you'll be swimmin' with the fishes.....I used to hear that all the time, but you'll be sinking to the bottom of a lake with two cinderblocks as your fin.

I was saying I'll shoot em' in their knee caps because I was speaking of disabling them so they can't move. You've got to understand, and loosen your retentive asshole and realize that people jokingly make comments like that. That's goes for the rest of the "serious" bunch here. HAHA, laugh a little.

I'm military trained with firearms, been in the Navy for almost 4 years now. I shoot all the time when I'm back home with my father, so that instict skill you were speaking of is reptilian to me. I can pull a trigger and I know how to load a gun you arrogant man.

Any way, you showing doubt in Liberals being able to fight is about as nonsensical as my proposed aiming techniques. I think we can bring a good fight, because we got the grey matter.

Just my $.02

Good Day
TN
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #107
112. I hope you've enjoyed your stay...
and if there's time, prior to you're inevitable departure, you should visit the gungeon. There's more than a few of us that know all about the realities of combat.

Have a nice day. :hi:
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #107
117. is this a veiled threat?
What does your gang-name, the VRC, stand for? Is it a prison gang, or a mercinary company?
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
109. The right for a citizen to own guns is a LIBERAL IDEA!!!
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
111. Don't join the NRA ...
they've got names and addresses for all serious gun owners in the country.
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marano35 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #111
140. And...
they fucking suck.
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Ioo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
113. .22, You said Protect your family, that will not do it...
.22 is so small it is hard to really take someone down (DOWN NOT DEAD) without more than one shot...

.45 would have been better for that.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
145. .223 is a .22 caliber centerfire rifle, not a rimfire..
and was developed from a small-game-hunting round, the .222 Remington. It's definitely low-powered as far as rifles go, but in terms of energy it is equal or superior to most handguns (after all, it is a rifle round). You're looking at a 40-grain bullet at 3600 fps, a 55-grain bullet at 3200, or a 62-grain bullet at 3000, with around 1200-1400 ft-lb of kinetic energy, IIRC. A .45 is typically a 230-grain bullet at 850 fps or so, with 400-500 ft-lb of KE (but somewhat more momentum and way more frontal area).

A lot of military types seem to consider it a bit underpowered, but for police/civilian defensive use, it's just about perfect, IMHO.
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
115. I haven't resorted to buying a gun (yet).
But as a Born and Raised Southerner I grew up around them and know how to use them.My father liked guns and took us out for target practice a lot.
So if the time comes when I feel like I need one of my own there will be no hesitation from this Democrat :)
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
119. Looks like the Civil War troll was in here too
He came into my thread which was only about political fighting... and wrote a three-page essay on why liberals would lose in a civil war (which strangely, in his mind, would play out entirely using privately owned small arms). He then proceeded to disquisit on the "gaping hole in New York" and how we would be wise to make "common cause" with the right that could so easily kill us all if given the chance.

I'm a pretty good shot, don't keep a gun around (except the stage gun I leave out for burglars to grab instead of something valuable). That troll made me wonder if I should get one... there are a lot of FREAKS in this country who might need shot if they get too "rambunctious."
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
120. civil wars can happen.....
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hpot Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
121. In the words of our founding father,
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
127. ak-47
chinese models are fine.

you can beat the shit out them and they just won't jam.

relatively cheap too.

the weapon of choice for the developing world.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
128. We don't have one yet
This is the first time in my life I even considered one . I can't say it will do much good with all the weapons the government has .

I don't know what this will look like if it gets to this point .
All I know is I don't intend on ending up in some camp willingly so in that case I will fight back and risk death for freedom .
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cool user name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #128
141. Just remember the movie Red Dawn ...
Americans with guns against an aggressor is a formidable sight.

WOLVERINES!!!!
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cool user name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
132. Bravo!!!!!!!!!
:clap:
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marano35 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
138. Good.
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jeffuppy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-19-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
142. The second and third words of the 2nd ammendment:
"...well regulated..."
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #142
144. A well-regulated MILITIA being necessary...the right of the PEOPLE...
it is the militia that is "well-regulated" (generally regarded as 18th-century locution for "well trained"), but the right recognized is recognized as belonging to the people, not to the militia.

FWIW, my wife and I own several guns between us, and we would like to keep them.
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jeffuppy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. 18th Century locution?
Please help me out with that one. So now all we must do to alter the meaning of the Constitution is ascribe its phrases a new "18th Century locution"?

Would a "...well regulated militia.." be widely dispersed and wholly unsupervised - each member, as such, making their own decisions and operating independently? Hardly a Militia at that point.

It may be that individual gun ownership will some day save our Republic from tyranny. But I doubt it. And I very much doubt that the current state of affairs - an M16 in every driveway and a .45 in every pot - is what the founders had in mind when they crafted this amendment. I'm not a constitutional scholar, but this just seems like common sense and straight-forward reading of the text.

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ejbrush Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. So why not a Progressive/Liberal Milita?
Please hear me out, and forgive the low post count. And the rambling (Hamm's will do that to a person). The term "milita" gets a lot of flak, mostly because it was essentially hijacked by wacko's whose whole survival philosophy was "I gots mine, screw you." If anyone really looked at them objectively, it was apparent all the hullabaloo was over a bunch of loons that like to run around in the woods and play with guns in an unsafe manner.

A lot of posters on thread has assumed that it will be an individual-against-the-facists scenario. Sorta like "Yep, me an' ol' Betsy here'll defend the homestead..." Seems to me that about all that results from that sort of attitude is a lot of dead individuals, both armed and "assumed armed." I am going to guess that after the first few Blackwater Erstatz-Gestapo get plugged, they'll start to shoot first and check addresses later.

But what happens when people are organized? I mean, the labor movement is the quintessential example (I tell my boss to pound sand, I get fired. The factory tells the boss to pound sand, he starts looking for a hammer). I don't mean starting a para-military organization or running around the woods shooting at paper cutouts of menacing NeoCons. But if you have people who are willing to defend their rights and liberties working together in an organized manner, then you are force that cannot be ignored.

I'm not even talking about weaponry here, necessarily. Just the basics like communications (What if no internet? No telephones? How do you coordinate resistance?), logistics (beans and etc.), intellegence, tactics for defense/offense.

10,000 people milling around on the street in a major city are mob; 10,000 people *marching* down the street with signs is a protest; 10,000 people *marching* down the street with signs *and* with shields and gas-masks to defend their right to assembly from the riot police is a **movement**.

I dunno, it just seems to me that if the elections go south for Democrats/TheConstitution/America in '06, time will be very short for anyone to prepare for the worst. Heaven knows the Facists will gear up in a hurry to get alles en ordnung.

As an aside, I own a dandy Mosin-Nagant M91/30 that I picked up at the local sporting goods store in the mall, out the door with 40rnds. of 7.62x54r (Czech light ball) for under a C-note. Manufactured in 1937, will put 5 shots into a empty Hamm's can at 100m if I do my job right. No offense intended, but the .223 is a fine cartridge for exterminating gophers but not stopping vehicles or horses (cavalry is passe, but who knows?). Pre-WWII military cartridges (.303, .30/06, 7.92x57, 7.62x54r, etc.) are a handfull but maybe worth it? The Mosin will make an awful mess of an engine block with standard ball ammo (emperical personal data).

As a second aside, tanks are great at killing other tanks on the open plain. History shows that they are big, slow, vulnerable targets in built up areas if they don't have supporting infantry. Worry more about helicopters, A-10's and AC-130's. Hope that the good guys steal some air support of their own.

Ed
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jeffuppy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. How do the M91/30 and the .223 stack up
against a next generation Preditor Drone?
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ejbrush Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #149
151. About as well as they would against A-10's and Apaches...
Probably not well, but you never know. If you could hit one, the damage would be The Predator has a max speed of 135mph and a max ceiling of 25,000 feet. I don't know the max effective range of the Hellfire missles they carry, but since they are laser guided and tied to optical target acquisition, maybe 1-1.5km? So they are down relatively low when they are in offensive mode. They aren't small, either. 48' wingspan, 27' long; a bit bigger than a Cessna 172. I would guess that if they were below 2500' altitude, massed small arms fire might get lucky and punch a couple of holes in it, maybe screw up the electronics.
I would be more concerned with Predator surveilance than missile attacks, though.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #146
152. From the Oxford English Dictionary (dictionary of etymological history)
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 07:45 AM by benEzra
1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

(from http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm, since OED isn't online)


Use of the term "regulated" to mean primarily "controlled by lots of laws" seems to be primarily a 20th century locution. Prior to that, it often took the meaning of "properly functioning," "smoothly operating," and so on. A "well-regulated clock" is one that runs well, not one that is subject to lots of government rules.

To see what the founders meant by the "militia," read Federalist number 46 (Madison, I think) and run his numbers against the population of the United States at the time. He is speaking of every citizen of suitable age, NOT a government body.

Federal law has long defined the "militia" as every male citizen between the ages of 17 and 45, and modern jurisprudence would extend that to females as well since it was written in a discriminatory age. And in U.S. v. Miller, the Supreme Court said that anyone called up for service would be expected to show up "bearing arms supplied by themselves, of the kind in common use at the time." And of course, the 2ndA does NOT say "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It says the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear (i.e., own and carry) arms shall not be infringed, and offers the idea of a well-functioning militia as one reason why that right might be important. And if you take the position that the 2ndA does NOT recognize a right of the people to keep and bear arms, you can't well find that the people have a right to privacy in the 1st and 4th amendments, since the right to privacy is spelled out nowhere near as clearly as the right to keep and bear arms.

Under Fire: The New Consensus on the Second Amendment (45 Emory L.J. 1139-1259 (1996).

Perhaps the strongest evidence of the founding generation's individual right understanding of the Amendment is that the Founders themselves uniformly described the Amendment as guaranteeing an inalienable individual right (and so did courts and commentators for at least a century thereafter<334>). The Founders seem not to have even understood the concept that the Second Amendment was, or could be, something less or different. The very concept of the Amendment as a collective right, a states' right, a right of the state militia, or pertaining only to militiamen is an artifact of the twentieth century gun control debate unknown to the Founders, courts, and commentators for more than a century after their time.(p.1211)

The evidence on this point is not solely that the Founders used the "right of the people" phrase to mean individual rights in the First, Second, Fourth, etc. Amendments. A review of other writings, both private and public, finds the Founders consistently and routinely jumbling the Second Amendment together with the freedoms of speech, press, and/or religion in the same sentence and referring to them jointly as "human rights,"<335> "private rights,"<336> "essential and sacred rights,"<337> and rights that "respected personal liberty each individual reserves to himself."<338> Remarkably, no instance whatever has been found of the Founders referring to the right to arms as being fundamentally different from the others guaranteed in the Bill of Rights in that it was narrow or limited to the militia or to militiamen.<339>

Evidence surrounding the legislative history of the Second Amendment in Congress also supports the individual right view. Madison initially proposed that amendments be inserted into the particular parts of the original Constitution they affected or to which they related, not added at the end. Had Madison held an exclusively militia-centric view of the Amendment, he would have planned to place this provision into the Militia Clause of Article I, Section 8. But he proposed to insert it, along with freedom of religion, the press, and other personal rights, in Section 9, following the rights already in the Constitution against bills of attainder and ex post facto laws<340> and immediately following his proposed rights of freedom of speech, press, and assembly.<341>


FWIW, no one is arguing for "an M16 in every driveway," as we gun owners (and even the NRA) have supported strict federal controls on all automatic weapons for 72 years now. But I think that if you study the issue, it is evident that the right to keep and bear arms is no less clearly delineated than the right to privacy, or even freedom of speech and press.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
148. Gonna get me a 92FS one of these days. nt
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Keepontruking Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
150. guns
Your crazy not to have a few!!!!!!!!!!!  Take lessons and
target practice and I really am worried more about the chinese
than anybody...who do we owe, who has nuclear arms , who is
communist , who has a bigger arm,  I mean really are we
nuts????????///
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