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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 01:48 AM
Original message
Catch more bees with honey than with vinegar
Ever heard that? I might even have it wrong... but that's what I remember my Grandma (may the Great Spirit rest her soul) used to say when I was mean to my cousins.

Do we want rethuglican votes? Are rethuglican votes important to us? Can we retake the House, or Senate without them? I dare say that the answer is a resounding NO. Okay, maybe the House, but certainly not a 2/3 majority in the Senate, which would be needed to convict der chimperor in impeachment proceedings.

What's more important? Regaining the system of checks and balances, or rubbing their faces in their misguided support of a fool?

MHO is that the more we foster the divide, the more we ridicule those who through no fault of their own were fooled by smoke and mirrors, the further we push our goal from fruition.

Ridicule them? How about we change our tack and try to bring them into the fold? Bring them BACK from the dark-side. Hell, promise them a rabbit-in-every-pot, a Chevy-in-every-garage, and a whitey in every elected office... JUST TO GET THEIR VOTE. Once we have Committee ChairPERSONship? Fuck them. They did it to US.

Hold out the carrot, then BEAT THEM SILLY with it when they open their mouths to take it.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. I totally agree
As a graduate of Dale Carnagiee, I believe that you get more people to agree with you when you show them the advantage of agreeing with you instead of pointing out what is wrong with whay they think!
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. A whitey in every elected office?
Sounds like race-baiting to me.

Then "FUCK THEM. They did it to US."?

How, exactly, is this going to heal anything?

I was with you until completely until the last two paragraphs.

What I've learned from my personal experiences is that long-term anger and hatred do not solve problems. To the contrary, they create problems.

Politics is the art of building coalitions by finding common ground. Those who say there is no common ground are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Cherokee, I hear your emotion, and share it. But let's not become "them" in our attempt to overtake "them." We stand for something better...just as we rightly insist that America stand for something better in its conduct of foreign affairs.

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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Trick more bees with false tolerance than disdain?
Not that I disagree in theory with much you've said, but there are a few things that strike me.

First, if only it were so simple as not ridiculing them. They aren't listening to anything we say, not rational arguments, statements of the truth, efforts to communicate OR our insults.

Then, there's the fact that it was not through 'no fault of their own' thay they were fooled. Worse, nearly all of them, to some very significant degree, remain "fooled". Actually, it's not 'fooled', it's 'agreement'. Irrational agreement, but deliberate, if increasingly whiny, agreement. Few have changed their opinions of anything and even those who have, aren't very likely to side with us (whether we send them buckets of honey or not).

And, sure, we'd all be happy to "bring them into the fold". Alas, there's no known way to do so. They've been spectacularly resistant to rational argument, promises and every other imaginable approach. It's as though they are fundamentally broken and beyond any known means of repair.

Of course it's more important to regain the system of checks and balances than to enjoy any satisfaction at their expense. Alas, not pointing out to them with an "I told you so" isn't going to magically swing their votes over to us. Indeed, if anything, they'll just be wondering and laughing at us for not using our advantage against them. They don't think like we do... and in many ways, they don't even think like we think they think. Go figure.

As for saying anything, just to get their vote... Well, that's fundamentally antithetical to most Democrats for being dishonest. Worse, it wouldn't work. Being literally masters of consuming (and their leaders--producing) lies, they'd see right through us. Besides, why buy the recently modified, artificially flavored (or slightly flawed) version of "conservative", still titled "Democrat", candidate when they can even more easily have and keep their original, documented Republican "conservative". So, it'd be a terribly weak ploy.

Can we do it by ourselves without the Republican vote? Actually, we can, at least in theory. I still stand puzzled why we cannot get more Democrats to the polls. As the pain brought by the Republicans grows, this option will certainly grow. It may not work yet, but then again... given the likely electoral fraud we're going to experience (whether it's apparent or not, detectable or not, avoidable or not), there may be nothing we can do, with or without Republicans (unless we can get a large majority of them to come out publicly in favor of the Democrat in advance of the election; so as to make the margins so large that if fraud is perpetrated, even Republicans will see and admit it)(alas, the chances of that are probably less than zero--even if that's statistically impossible). Still, you're mostly right--we won't beat them by ourselves this time around.

Another thing. Nothing we say is going to convince them that if we achieve a win in either house, that we won't be trying hard to pursue impeachment or other investigations to their disadvantage. The truth may well be that our rather weak elected leadership may indeed be serious if they offer to claim they won't pursue such things (sadly, it'd be just like them to do nothing--especially if they've promised to do nothing). Regardless, Republicans aren't known for trusting Democrats (despite the general truth that Democrats are mostly honorable and vastly more honorable than Republicans). They just won't trust us and therefore we can expect them, from their top elected leaders to the republi-Joe on the street, to desperately oppose and seek to sabotage us.

If anything, they would be the ones to pretend to accept our kindness or pretend to have an 'awakening' and promise to support Democrats--to lull us into complacency (and, with us, it doesn't take much), only to vote Republican at the last minute.

I wish you were right; I wish you were onto something; I wish you had an explicit plan that would capture the votes of some percentage of Republicans. Alas, I'm just not convinced (dspite your well written proposition).
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Great writing
to lull us into complacency

I shall not be for the truth is painful and not complacent.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. i heard it as "flies"
you catch more flies w. honey than vinegar

and ya know what?

who the hell wants to catch flies?
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes, it is flies.
My mother always said that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I always heard flies, too.
And then I found out that you actually CAN catch more flies with vinegar. A fly trap, easily made from a jar and an open-ended cone of paper, baited with vinegar does catch more flies than one baited with honey.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. We should play to the middle voters, not the right wing
Edited on Wed Sep-13-06 03:02 AM by Selatius
Anything between 55 to 66 percent is good.

If you polled people on the idea of universal health care, something like 60 percent support it even though it's a socialistic idea. That's just one example. Guess who also wins on minimum wage? Certainly not the Republicans.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. "...whitey in every elected office..." won't persuade any electors.
However, thank you for speaking up.
By the way, I'm nobody, but I know enough to know that the word "whitey" won't persuade any candidate to change their tune. There are simply too many white Democrats, such as myself, who refuse definitions based on race.
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's not the RepubliCONs we need worry about
But the middle of the road, independent, mostly uninvolved or uninformed voters. The CONs are committed to their position, facts do not impress them. But I do agree with your view about the ones we can convince (using honey not vinegar).
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. exactly. (no text)
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