People who believe things even after they've been PROVEN wrong.

[Philosoraptor]

How do you deal with people who STILL believe that Iraq had WMD's? How do you get through to someone who still believes bush won fair and square twice?

Is this called faith? Believing in something that just plain ain't so, and has been proven over and over again to be wrong, no matter how much proof is given some might call delusional.

Bush says we don't torture prisoners, but we do. He says the mission was accomplished, it wasn't. He says we are winning the war on terror, we aren't.

Now bush says we are safer from terror, and millions believe it, but its patently false.

Republicans do this all fucking day long, swear up and down something is true when its been proven false. Bush isn't a Christian but millions swear he is.

How do you get through to people who PREFER lies over truth?

[Submariner]

1. It's Brain Atrophy...they are beyond hope...they will be the Soylent Green

[crispini]

2. Are you really interested in the answer, or are you simply ranting?

Because I actually do have some ideas on this...

[Philosoraptor]

4. both

[crispini]

8. K, cool. How to debate a republican. :)

Well the first thing is that it's fun to rant about "those" ppl but when it comes down to an individual that you're engaging with you have to make sure not to put them in that box because people don't like that.

The second thing you have to recognize is it's true, ppl DON'T hold their beliefs for any rational reason, so trying to logically argue them or debate them out of it simply does not work. Have you read George Lakoff's Don't Think of an Elephant? This is really effective on explaining this. For example, somebody might hold their position on, say, NAFTA because of something their dad told them. So if you are attacking their position on NAFTA you are attacking their dad.

The way around this is first to ask an open ended question and make them feel heard, really listen to their concerns. Not just listening with an inclination to jump in with your point, but listening. We teach this in the blockwalking class I give to local activists. Then you find a way to connect their concerns with your candidate or issue. But you have to do it in an educating kind of way, not a debate kind of way. The minute they start feeling attacked instead of engaged, you've lost them.

Does that make any sense? :D

[PADemD]

11. I don't know

if it will work. Just yesterday, we were discussing John McCain, for whom my friend would like to vote. My friend is also very prochoice. When I told her that John McCain is not prochoice, she said that she would vote for him anyway. She votes on the personality and likeability of the candidate and what she thinks he'll do. She's a democrat who voted for anti-choice Bush because she couldn't stand John Kerry and especially his wife. There's no logic there, just emotion.

[crispini]

14. Exactly. So you can't debate them.

You have to engage them. Try asking them open ended questions and really getting at the reasons why they vote the way they do. Stop approaching them with the agenda of "I want to make this person understand me so they will vote for X" and approach her with the agenda of "I want to understand why this person votes the way they do." Like an experiment.

Who knows, it may not work, the point is to try different things and engage her in a different way than you have been engaging her. After all, isn't the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting diffferent results? :D

[izzie]

13. Does to me.

Like when people say Bush is C in Chief of the service so one has to do as he tells them. I usually ask them are they sure and have they ever read the oath of office or what service men sign when they go in. All take a oath to the Constitution first. It is more important than the President and he takes it also. When they say God gave him power I usually tell them I think you maybe interested in the 'we the people' part before you give a president divine right. At least it stops them and I get an answer like I did not know that, or I will look it up. I often get well they were wrong and it should be this way----so I usually add yes our Constitution has a way for us to make it the way you wish if people will do it. I usually know I have lost them at that point to tell you the truth. I have been in classes with people like that and they will take a class down to nothing in about 5 minutes. I must say that faith in some thing like that must be a lot stronger than reason but I will hope for reason as it is what our founders were after.

[izzie]

15. By the way I believe you would find out founders always said

check on power all the time. Question them as power usually means abuse.

[crispini]

26. Exactly. If you can make people THINK

without taking it to the level of a personal DEBATE -- hard, I know -- then you've got something. :D

[PADemD]

6. Please, give us your ideas!

I eat lunch with one of these every day.

[crispini]

10. See above.

;) let me know what you think.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Let's not bring up my dad first thing in the morning, OK? n/t

[GuvWurld]

5. Ruthless honesty

Don't tell people what to believe. Don't tell people they are being lied to. Don't tell people they are lying to themselves.

Do ask them what they think. Find out what they believe. Keep probing until you have them admitting they believe two things that directly contradict each other.

Then ask how that could be? Aim only for acknowledgment of the contradiction.

The only thing more that I suggest pursuing is planting the suggestion that this contradiction was put there on purpose by people who benefit from the confusion and division it causes.

The division we're talking about is a rift in the perception of reality. This is one of many ways it can easily be shown that the government/media work to divide us.

If you start at this point you will meet resistance. If you lead someone to this place by their own beliefs, we may finally stand a chance at uniting against those who would choose to divide us as a means of safeguarding their power.

For more on ruthless honesty, see: Blueprint For Peaceful Revolution

[crispini]

9. Exactly. If you can lead someone to say your idea

out of their own mouth, then all of a sudden it becomes THEIR idea.

The best way to convince someone of anything is to get them to come up with it on their own by leading them to it.

[Lasher]

7. Yes, it is called faith

To hard core right wingers, their political beliefs are a religion to them. Take their faith-based economic beliefs, for example. It is quite clear that supply side economics do not work as advertised, but there is nothing that can be done to convince them that this is so. It would be like walking into the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and trying to get them to believe that their deity does not exist.

[Ghost in the Machine]

12. How do you get through to people who PREFER lies over truth?

with a 22 ounce framing hammer to the forehead?? :shrug:

[xchrom]

16. not unlike the fight over slavery pre-civil war is it?

i don't believe it's ignorance -- i don't believe these people simply don't know the difference.

it's willfull ignorance -- they know it's a lie -- and they know it's destructive -- they simply do not care.

they want to crush whatever they perceive the opposition to be -- pure and simple.

[pretzel4gore]

17. nevermind ass worshippers (busheviks)

go after the mediawhores who egg them on. the mediawhores might be ass worshippers too, admiring the naked bushemperor's big smelly arse and telling the world to 'lookee at them fine clothes!' etc, but most mediawhores are cowards who just go with the flow, know the flow is rightwingnut, but need the money and so on to justify lying.... the ass worshippers are gonna worship the bush bare arse no matter what ('it's brooks brothers suit, i do declare; cost a fortune!' they'll say) even when the naked goofball emperor's balls are a-bouncing in their faces!
someday, they'll all have to be shot unfortunately :( as they too destructive to peace and good order

[loyalsister]

18. Belief in belief.......

It is a powerful dogma.
The trouble with dispelling the Bush lies on a large scale, is it is not actually clear what belief people are preserving.
There is actually a belief that because we are "the greatest country in the world" - certain things can't happen here.
People may take the side of a president who lies about larger issues because of that.
It is more comfortable than to have that original precious belief shattered.

Other conventional wisdom people have that kind of attachment to is that people love us the world over.

One I may have noticed above is that all Christians are by definition, good, decent people. Buying into a belief system, does not necessarily have an influence on what kind of person someone will be.
"If a person is a Christian, then they must be good and if they are not religious, they cannot be good" is a piece of conventional wisdom that Republicans are benefitting from in their marriage to the religious right.
Belief in belief and conventional wisdom are comforting things that people have "known" to be true their entire lives and they have a great deal of discomfort at having them challenged.
I tend to think that the success of strategies listed throughout the thread will depend on what kinds of beliefs are being challenged.

[zanne]

19. They don't believe it.

They're being disingenuos. They simply can't and won't admit that they were wrong, because it weakens their argument. They know that what they're saying isn't true, but if it will advance their cause, they'll do it.

[loyalsister]

23. Okay.....

How do you think the polling would come out on the following simple statement if posed to the general public?
"America is greatest country in the world." Yes-- no
Would that be consistent or inconsistent with having a president who has done the things named in the original post?

Ever heard of cognitive dissonance and how it is resolved?

http://www.doublestandards.org/cd1.html

[NNN0LHI]

20. I thought about this yesterday

Every other person we see walking down the street still falsely believes Iraq had WMDs. Now that is scary. Half our country is comprised of idiots.

Don

[lonestarnot]

21. It is the result of irreversable brain damage and just like the economy's

2 sets of books, there ain't nutt'n you can do baby. The U.S. is half gone.

[abluelady]

22. There is Another Thread

that has a speech by Bill Clinton. http://liberaltopia.org/?p=1016 Check it out if you haven't. He talks about philosophy vs. ideology. These folks spit out lies to fit their beliefs. It is very frightening.

Sorry I don't know how to put a link in. :>/

[stray cat]

24. Agreed but the same goes for conspiracy theorys when proven wrong

Its scary how many people don't let the facts get in the way of their opinions and I think that can occur on both sides of the political and nonpolitical spectrum.

[sandnsea]

25. Some people believe bombs blew up the towers & pentagon

Some people believe Hezbollah are victims. Some people believe bin laden is a CIA operative. I don't know why some people prefer lies over truth but there are people right on this board who could be asked the same question.