Israel has lost this war

[blitzen]

that's not my personal analysis or prediction, but the common consensus of the Israeli press. somehow this fact hasn't yet surfaced in the US MSM

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/748534.html


"And here we are, a month after Israel declared war on Lebanon, and regardless of the circumstances and conditions of the declaration, a military defeat is visible to all who open their eyes. Only those who suffer from arrogance and pigheadedness will fail to admit it. Nevertheless, no real immediate existential danger for the State of Israel is visible on the horizon. There is even no real Arab threat against Israel.

The Israel Defense Forces are defeated, but the State of Israel is not. And the IDF defeat comes from the fact that it did not, and could not, have achieved the goals it set for itself in this war. On the other hand, the state is not defeated, it lives on."

[breakaleg]

1. This article makes it seem as if all people need to do is open

their eyes and they will see this as a military defeat.

But the US was / in that position with Afghanistan and Iraq, and they are still plugging away, with their eyes closed.

I'd like to think the end is near... maybe I'm cynical.

[Baclava]

2. "The writer is a member of the Fatah Revolutionary Council"

More wishful thinking...Hezbollah`s days are numbered.

[rockymountaindem]

4. Good call

I don't know what's going to become of Hezbollah, but I sure as hell am not going to put much stock in anything this writer has to say about Israel's future.

[Oversea Visitor]

6. No matter how the Arabs country rave and rant

They will not destroy Israel.

But if they all unite and say stop. Then better one stop.
Israel knows the deal.

[evox]

10. Ironic

This article was not published by an Arab county. It was published in a national Israeli newspaper. Think about that. And no, Arab countries will never unite because as they stand, they're only tools.

[Oversea Visitor]

23. I agree

but see the tools has a master
and the master is mad.
So now they got no master
And chose to control their own destiny.

If you ignore Afghanistan, Iraq and now Lebanon you are ignoring the fact that the muslim world see themself under threat and are reacting to it. They are unite for the time being on the Israel/Lebanon issue. You can say never. But then you do not see the threat as they do.

[Fozzledick]

16. They've been trying to destroy Israel for 58 years

Egypt and Jordan eventually figured it out.

Lebanon and Syria are slow learners.

The rest still pay lip service to driving the Israelis into the sea, but they're not stupid enough to risk getting directly involved.

[w4rma]

24. "Lebanon" was the slow learner? Actually Israel was supposed to be

fighting Hezbolah (an underground militia) and Lebanon's government was a pro-American democracy, but weak.

[Fozzledick]

29. Hezbollah has been preparing offensive missles for six years

while the Lebanese govenment has been bending over backwards to look the other way.

What did they think would happen when they started shooting them at Israel?


:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :wtf: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[w4rma]

30. The war was initiated by Hezbollah kidnapping two Israeli soldiers

not anything to do with rockets.

[blitzen]

33. just like WW I was initiated by the assassination of the Archduke

of Austria....it's all really just a question of honor and revenge, right?

(insert sarcasm icon here)

[leftchick]

57. ohhh the war mongers started way before that event

the necons are using that as the defining moment when war had to happen. It isn't...

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20060731_down_the_memory_hole/

Down the Memory Hole

Posted on Jul 31, 2006
The FAIR organization reminds us that Hezbollah’s attacks on Israel, though deplorable, did not spring from a vacuum. Drawing on an Alexander Cockburn column, FAIR notes that within the last two months, Israeli attacks on suspected militants ended up killing almost two dozen innocent Lebanese and Palestinian women and children.

As FAIR notes, the traditional media outlets paid almost no attention to these deaths, but gave enormous play to the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. In large part because of such practices, many in the Arab world think Americans consider Arab lives to be of less value than Israeli lives.


FAIR:

In a July 21 CounterPunch column, Alexander Cockburn highlighted some of the violent incidents that have dropped out of the media’s collective memory:

Let’s go on a brief excursion into pre-history. I’m talking about June 20, 2006, when Israeli aircraft fired at least one missile at a car in an attempted extrajudicial assassination attempt on a road between Jabalya and Gaza City. The missile missed the car. Instead it killed three Palestinian children and wounded 15.
Back we go again to June 13, 2006. Israeli aircraft fired missiles at a van in another attempted extrajudicial assassination. The successive barrages killed nine innocent Palestinians.

[Fozzledick]

74. Yeah, Hezbollah bragged that they were planning it for 6 months

[leftchick]

75. Israel had a war plan a year ago

they were waiting and baiting for the right opportunity. "A Clean Break" in motion.

[Fozzledick]

77. They'd be crazy NOT to have a plan to deal with 13,000 missiles

How do you figure Hezbollah knew 6 months ago to start digging a tunnel to react to something that happened 2 months ago? Prophecy, or maybe time travel?:eyes:

[mom cat]

64. And the soldiers were captures in Lebanon after the IDF soldiers

crossed the border into Lebanon.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark2008]

56. I don't know. I'd say after only a year of self-rule, they probably

didn't have TIME to look at Hezbollah.

Geesch.

[Zhade]

60. What the-- COMMON SENSE! LOGIC!

So rare on DU among the pro-Israel "war crimes don't matter" crowd these days.

Nice to see someone point out the obvious-but-easily-missed!

[Oversea Visitor]

25. The root of the Jews are from the middle east

They have been living together for centuries. :rofl:
They have been quarreling for centuries.
And they keep quarreling for more centuries.

So now they quarrel about land. And they will quarrel.
As long as you dont have mad leader all this is so much quarrel.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. The difference?

There are now Jews in power...some don't like that!

[Name removed]

50. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[evox]

28. Technically

The leaders of Egypt and Jordan are only puppets, so they learned nothing. As a matter of fact, all arab countries are lead by puppets, they have no democracy, their people have no rights, no freedom of speech; if they claim they do, it's only a show. Somehow Syria and Lebanon were able to distance themselves away from the puppet circle since they've always been threatened by Israel.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. Then who are their puppet masters who make them dance?

IMO Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel and prospered. No fighting, no kidnappings, no incursions, no illegal militias, no killing. The populace is not shackled by the Sharia either, as it is in Iran and in Hezbollah controlled areas. Peace...what a cool concept.

[blitzen]

37. i don't think the picture is quite so rosy in Egypt...

a severely repressive regime, caught between secularism and Shariah

[Solo_in_MD]

67. Quite true, the only country with serious freedoms in the ME is Israel

I bring up the Sinai to point to out that it is possible for an Arab/Muslim country to have a border with Israel and not be a war. It is in fact a prosperous relationship for both sides.

You are right about it being repressive government in the ME. In some countries there is a repressive secular regime that is repressive to keep the evil Islamic fundies in check. In others there is an Islamic fundie regime being repressive to keep the evil secularists in check. Turkey is trying to keep secular and free, but then there is this thing with the Kurds. There are a couple of common threads in all of them, but that is another discussion.

[evox]

38. it's all about....

"Dignity".

Like you said, Take Egypt for example. Today if you ask any Egyptian - but ofcourse you can't do that in public or you and that person will get imprisoned, or maybe just that person since he's egyptian-; Hosni Mubarak is seen as a traitor, coward, and a powerless leader. The only power he has is over his own people by threatening them. That's the case with most Arab countries. Their armies are nothing but tools to be used against their own people.

[The Stranger]

71. Israel is in Lebanon killing innocents -- who is trying to destroy whom?

:wtf:

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. yah, what right does a Palestinian have to an opinion about this matter?

why don't they just go back to where they came from?

I do believe the author said "Nevertheless, no real immediate existential danger for the State of Israel is visible on the horizon. There is even no real Arab threat against Israel. "

The second lesson is that the IDF, with its enormous capacity for destroying, pounding and obliterating from afar, which relies on a vast arsenal of conventional, as well as unconventional, weapons unequaled in this region, and with the full support of the United States guaranteeing its continued supremacy over all the Arab armies combined - this IDF cannot ensure Israel's control over any Arab country. This was proved by the Palestinians and Lebanese, two of the smaller people in the Arab world. "

and "The third lesson is that Israel is a powerful state, but only within the 1967 borders, not beyond. "

and "The objective truth is the strength and existence of the Palestinian people, who agreed to the formula of two states for two peoples, since that is the beginning of the formula. It ends with real sustainable peace. "

There is an offer for peace between Arab countries and Israel:

This specific offer was unanimously affirmed by the Arab League and immediately endorsed by the Palestinian leadership in March 2002. However, more or less the same plan has been offered by the Arab League and enthusiastically endorsed by the Palestinian leadership going back much, much longer:

link:

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm

"The Arab Peace Initiative
(translation by Reuters).

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session, reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government.

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organizations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union."
___________

And this is the offer Israel made at Camp David in 2000:

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."

read full article:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

[blitzen]

43. excellent point....

some seem to think that "Israeli" and "Jew" are synonyms--as if Israel is some exception to the rule that the modern nation-state transcends religious and ethnic identity

[malaise]

59. Great post

If Israel wanted peace Resolution 242 would have been implemented. Israel wants land with rivers and beleives others will lie down and die while they take it.

[Zhade]

61. Thank you for facts and sanity.

I hope some of this sinks in to the minds of those fervent with war fever.

[Fozzledick]

78. Did I walk into a bad Monty Python sketch?

"I came here for an argument, not a filibuster!" :crazy:

Actually, this line of reasoning reminds me of the Republicans who made excuses for Hitler during the 30's - "He doesn't really mean all those things he said about conquering the world and exterminating the Jews, that's just rhetoric (or "mistranslated"). He's no real threat, he just wants to protect the poor oppressed German minorities in Czechoslovakia and Poland."

BTW, just who IS it who's preventing "Palestinian" Arabs from returning to their ancestral homeland in Arabia? :shrug:

[Douglas Carpenter]

83. there is not a credible, critical Israeli historian who would dispute

the reality of the Palestinians and their dispossession. Palestinian denial and dispossession denial is just as intellectually dishonest and just as historically ludicrous as any other other other denial of irrefutable facts of history.

" It was that an Arab community in a state of terror facing a ruthless Israeli army whose path to victory was paved not only by its exploits against the regular Arab armies, but also by the intimidation, and at times atrocities and massacres, it perpetuated against the civilian Arab community. A panic-stricken Arab community was uprooted under the impact of massacres that would be carved into the Arabs monument of grief and hatred" - - Former Israeli Foreign Minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami
From Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy, page 42

"The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession became the engine that drives Arab antagonism to Zionism" Benny Morris - Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva -- from Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001

[blitzen]

7. okay, here's another one...

like i said in the OP, this is the common consensus in the Israeli press--read around a bit if you don't believe me. by Israel's (very high) military standards, this has been a defeat, and the nation views it as such


http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749257.html

"This war broke out in no small way because of the Israeli leadership's lack of diplomatic-military experience and failure to predict the future. Olmert will have to be magnanimous in accepting the compromise taking shape internationally, because it will be an admission of Israel's inability to achieve its declared goals.

There is reason to believe he has this quality. He is not a cynic who, for reasons of prestige or other extraneous considerations, would take tens of thousands of soldiers into battle to risk their lives.



The diplomatic solution, in spite of its limitations and the bitter pills to be swallowed, is preferable to expanding the war, since a new military move would not change the outcome of the armed conflict.

Even if the military limits considerably Hezbollah's short-range Katyusha launch capabilities, it will not erase the impression that this organization has made in its challenge to Israel."

[Solo_in_MD]

12. Haaretz is widely regarded in Israel as being very far left

and at times defeatist/collaborist. The Israeli press is arguably less tied to the powerbrokers in the Government and tends to be more strident (regardless of view).

Not saying its right or wrong, but consider its acknowledged leanings.

[blitzen]

17. yes, leans left...but just a week or so ago it was quite hawkish...

so, the "defeatism" of recent days certainly reflects the national mood (as the hawkishness did earlier)

by the way, aren't we DUers supposed to consider the left-wing press as authoritative (rather than the right-wing)?

[Solo_in_MD]

26. Its the big left rag in Israel

And their M$M is much more strident.

As for trusting a left wing vs a right wing rag, I am skeptical of all of them. Been burned way to may times.

[The Stranger]

72. And this web site is Leftist. Does that make it "collaborist"?

Interesting choice of words.

[Oversea Visitor]

8. Haha it is only a word

Hezbollah is only a word.
What make Hezbollah is more important.
Hezbollah cannot exist if it has no people
The people are the Lebanese people.

To ensure the destruction of Hezbollah can only be acheive in 2 ways.
1) The killing of the Lebanese people.

or

2) Win their heart and mind.

When you fight the people you better make sure you have stomach to be real monster and is willing to kill them all.

If not better you chose path of winning heart and mind.

So when you say Hezbollah days are number ..... which path you chose?

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Hezbollah would also not exist if the funding and military aid from

Syria and Iran would cease, but we all know it will not. Hezbollah is a surrogate that does what Syria and Iran can not do, which it take on Israel directly. And while the arms and money come from Syria and Iran, it is Lebanon that pays the price. Cut of the influx of money and guns and Hezbollah would blow away in the desert winds.

[evox]

13. Parallel to

Israel well-equipped and funded by the U.S. and is doing what its told to do. Without the U.S. helping them out, Israel won't exist.

[blitzen]

14. hezbollah is the s. lebanese resistance formed after the israeli

occupation in 1982--it is an autonomous movement and certainly would exist without syria and iran (although the latter two do aid and use it for their own ends.)

"deserts winds?" the territory is in fact rather fertile (it's part of the "Fertile Crescent"), and one cynical view is that israel is after the water from the river that forms the northern boundary of the hezbollah-dominated region

[Oversea Visitor]

18. It makes no different where their money comes from

You can not sow the seed of war if the ground is infertile.

Hezbollah is a people organisation.

They are not a terrorist cell.
A terrorist cell has no support.

The scale and size of Hezbollah resistance would have clue you in on it standing among the Lebanese people.

To blame its popularity on just funding is not looking real hard at the cause of this popularity.

If you are not aware all muslim pay a 5% income tax as religious tax. I am not sure on the percentage but it is around there.

And when you have 1 billion of them. Need I say more?

[Solo_in_MD]

31. Hezbollah's has a social wing, which has does the

hearts and minds gig you spoke of earlier. That is where is popularity comes from. The external funding made it possible as well as advanced weaponry. It is not funded from within Lebanon.

Hezbollah has better training that the average terrorist. That also takes money, and where it comes from matters. Hezbollah at some level is beholden to its Syrian and Iranian paymasters. The rank and file may not understand that, but Nasrallah certainly does.

Hezbollah is not a terrorist cell, it is an illegal militia. If being a peoples organization makes it legitimate, you have just legitimatized the KKK and the current Minutemen. Not sure you want to go there, at least not on DU

Are you sure that you want to claim that worldwide zakat, one of the five pillars of Islam which is supposed to go toward alleviating poverty is instead supporting Hezbollah and paying for advanced weapons?

[Oversea Visitor]

35. You have the right to how you look at Hezbollah

Others have their right.

We can go on argueing but we really wont change each other mindset.

As to how muslims see Hezbollah

The OIC countries which is the 57 muslims countries in this world has already state on record in world news that they will start sending arms and resources to Hezbollah if the UN cannot stop this war.

Do not fall off your chair.

I am merely telling you that within the muslim country the religious aspect is very strong.
And if you keep seeing them as evil and keep saying they are evil then you end up as their enemies.

[Fozzledick]

21. Nazi is only a word too

Used to be supported by lots of German people.

Not easy or quick to defeat, but necessary.

The Wehrmacht isn't much of a threat any more.

How is Hezbollah different?

[Oversea Visitor]

27. Simple

if you have branded all germans as nazi and occupied their land until today. treat them badly
Maybe we have the ACTHUNG party now fighting.

However the NAZI was just a goverment that went crazy and want to conquer the world. Usually shit happen.

bush just learning about that.
But who knows he get his way.
So the word REPUBLICANS gain the same status as NAZI.

You think the Democratic Party will get the credit :rofl:

[Fozzledick]

36. We occupied Germany until it was "de-Nazified"

Also let the Russians do most of the dirty work. Raped every woman in Berlin (literally) and sent 300,000 POW's to Siberia. Unlike Russian political prisoners, no survivors ever returned. Never heard anyone crying about them.

Now Iran has a government that went crazy and wants to conquer the Middle East. You may think it's a joke, but I'm not laughing. Neither is anyone in Lebanon except Hezbollah.

And Bush isn't learning anything; he never does.

[Oversea Visitor]

39. Iran .... went crazy

conquer all of middle east.

which brand your kool aid.

Must taste nice ;rofl:

[Fozzledick]

41. Tom Wolfe brand Electric Kool-Aid

Much tastier than your Jim Jones brand. :hippie:

[Oversea Visitor]

44. Nah my brand

very cheap MAKE in CHINA :rofl:

Jim Jones hmmm too classy for me.

:rofl:

[Clark2008]

62. Methinks you've bought into western media propaganda

regarding Iran.

May I suggest you watch Mike Wallace's interview with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad this weekend. In an interview I heard, surprisingly on InSannity's radio show, Wallace, a person of Jewish faith, says that Ahmadinejad is not unreasonable (the only radio station that has news in the afternoon in my area leads into InSannity. I usually don't listen beyond the first few minutes of his show, but Wallace's interview was worth hearing, so I stuck around).

Anyway, Wallace said that the Iranian president isn't even anti-Jewish and pointed to the number of Jews in the Iranian government. His "beef" is with the super Zionist state of Israel and his failure to understand why, after WWII, the allied forces didn't give the Jews their homeland in Germany, the country who allowed them to be murdered and beaten. Wallace said he didn't agree with Ahmadinejad, but said he understood his argument regarding why the allied forces put the Jewish state in the Middle East instead of Europe or even the United States. Of course, InSannity had to try to argue with the seasoned-journalist Wallace because Wallace wasn't spouting the western media propaganda line, but Wallace said what he said.

Here's more info on the upcoming interview: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/09/60minutes/main1879867.shtml

[Fozzledick]

76. Um, you're quoting media propaganda, Hannity no less,

to deny my personal assessment? :eyes:

I really don't think his repeated calls to wipe Israel off the map are misunderstood, and the double-speak you quoted is just a rationalization for it.

[Zhade]

63. "wants to conquer the Middle East"

Man, you sound like a Tom Clancy knockoff. Where'd you get this nonsensical idea, Bizarro World?

[tabasco]

73. So the net contribution of the Russians was raping "every woman"

in Berlin. LMAO. I suppose the defeat of the gigantic Nazi armies was just part of the fun.

It think it is hilarious to see a comparison between Iran and Nazi Germany. One was a modern industrialized country with the military capability to destroy Europe and that declared war on the USA. Another is a 3rd world country that does not have the capapbility to defeat any indutrialized nation and does not have nuclear weapons, and is years away from producing a nuclear bomb.

I agree with the other posters. You chug too much kool-aid.

Since you see Iran as such a deadly danger to the US, why don't you join up?

www.goarmy.com

In WWII, there was no recruiting crisis like there is now. If the danger is the same as the Nazis, why are you not in Iraq preparing to defend against the imminent Iranian invasion? Are you a coward that likes to fight culture wars on the internet only?

[Fozzledick]

79. Iran is a modern industrialized country

with the largest military in the region, and a lot closer to producing nuclear weapons than the Third Reich ever was.

BTW, did you know that they changed their name from "Persia" to "Iran" ("land of the Aryans" in Farsi) in 1935 to please their Nazi allies?

http://www.iranchamber.com/geography/articles/persia_became_iran.php

Meanwhile, you really oughta lay off that cheap Chinese Kool-Aid; you seem to be hallucinating things I never said.:eyes:

[harlinchi]

70. Well said!

When you fight the people you better make sure you have stomach to be real monster and is willing to kill them all.


I'd guess it applies in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well!

[Baclava]

81. They chose to take their fight to the IDF in open warfare

I'd say that was a pretty stupid tactic for an "underground" organization.
This particular conflict will only end when one side gets tired of bleeding.

[Toots]

69. Maybe so, maybe not, but one thing is sure

The military can not defeat an idea. It is great for fighting against other armies but when it comes to politics the military is not the right tool. We are re-learning this in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel will re-learn this in Lebanon.

[Norrin Radd]

3. No one wins at war. Everyone loses. n/t

[Reckon]

9. I agree Rock... n/t

[ReadTomPaine]

15. Bingo. They both lost. n/t

[theanarch]

84. "You can no more win a war...

...than you can win an earthquake" Jeanette Rankin, R-Wyoming--the only member of Congress to vote against US entry into both WWI and WWII.

[Oversea Visitor]

5. It is true.

bush you listening to this message.

Isreal has lost.
Time to put war to end.
There is no immediate existential danger to Isreal.
There is even no REAL Arab threat against Isreal.

Did not and could not have acheived the goal. So put an end to it bush
Isreal still lives on.

........ do not create another reality here.
Just stop right here. War is over. Period.

[Stockholm]

19. Egypt peace accord

Like with Egypt I don´t think it is necessarily a bad thing if this turned into a tie. Let both side claim victory to their specific targets and lets hope for a quick cease fire.

[Hardrada]

20. I recall reading somewhere that Israel HAD to win all its

wars or would cease to exist. I suppose this was just some more of the pro_Israel propaganda I have heard all my life. We'll find out if it's true or not.

[evox]

22. Well

technically, they have lost to Hezbollah once before, year 2000 to be precise as they were forced to fled most of South Lebanon. They might as well lose again.

[rockymountaindem]

82. It's point number one in Israel's national defense plan

It is phrased "Israel cannot lose a single war".

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Not lost...more of a stalemate.

[dipsydoodle]

45. Yes a stalemate

and hopefully the solution will be some form of amicable draw.

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Only until Hizb'allah starts their shit again!

Peace is so elusive, but doesn't have to be.

[leftofthedial]

48. a war against an unassailable foe

or against an idea

is doomed to failure

[Behind the Aegis]

49. except those who live for war.

They don't care who dies, even their own people.

[Oversea Visitor]

51. So true so much wisdom in your words

over 2 kidnapped soldeirs now so many IDF soldiers killed.
And oh my god the rockets and the civilian that got killed.
EVIL evil this people crazy get so many kill over 2 kidnapped soldiers

They dont care who dies, even their own people.

OH WAIT geee Sorry me forget you only see from Isreal side

OK me correct
Hezbollah so evil.
See they fight and Lebanon dear Lebanon all flatten
The Hezbollah dont care how many get killed so long as they have their little war.
They destroy all the infrastructure. The water plant, the hospital the bridges
They are so truly evil this HEZbollah.

They dont care who dies even their own people :(

[Behind the Aegis]

52. So close...then so glib...

What a shame.

Before the kidnapping....how many Israeli bombs were falling on Lebanon? Now, turn that around. Before the kidnapping how many Hizb'allah bombs/attacks fell upon Israel?!

There is one group who cares about its people..it is not the side you back!

[Oversea Visitor]

53. Aegis Aegis

The mind is a wonderful thing
It has 2 side
Left and Right.

But your thoughts are only one side.

USE BOTH SIDE>

[Behind the Aegis]

54. you do the same...then get back to me.

And it is not the mind with two sides, but the brain.

[Oversea Visitor]

55. xx

:hug:
:)

[Zhade]

58. They lost it the moment they started indiscriminately bombing...

...innocent Lebanese who had nothing to do with the attack on the IDF.

I don't think either side should "win". They should both stop killing innocents and hopefully each other as well.

[Little Star]

65. When we had ME media blackout for 24 hrs. I fugured. n/t

[DemReadingDU]

66. K&R

[daydreamer]

68. They never lose wars. More land and water after each war.

[Marie26]

80. Agreed

This is Israel's longest war ever, & they've accomplished almost nothing for all the wasted life on both sides.