Kerry said he is not sure if Iraq is getting better or worse. He is there

[NNN0LHI]

Well sit back and relax folks because this is going to be a long ride. No sense even beginning to start talk about ending the occupation at this point its a waste of time. We are looking at ten years minimum in Iraq no matter who we elect. Hate to be the bearer of bad news. Kerry even threw in a plug for the U.S. puppets holing up in the green zone Bush has manage to install as the Iraq government. Full speed ahead over the cliff. Meet you all at the bottom.

Don

[TomClash]

1. Hey, John! Incoming!

[Faygo Kid]

2. Kerry lost me saying he would have voted for war even knowing now. . .

what he didn't know then. Talk about deflating a balloon!! See you in the camps.

[Mass]

3. He has said the opposite half a dozen times in the last few months.

[Faygo Kid]

8. Too late.

I hope he fights for our jeopardized civil liberties, though.

[ray of light]

21. geez...how ridiculous!

[Crazy Dave]

4. Someone ask Wesley Clark the same question

He wouldn't be so diplomatically sweet and "sensitive". In military terms Iraq is a cluster-fuck.
Kerry is too fcking PC and wobbly. I don't respect him personally because depending which camera or which microphone is in front of him (CNN, NPR, Ed Schultz, FOX, etc.) or what he saw in a Zogby poll will determine his answer. Not what's right or wrong, not what he really believes personally.

He's too politician, get my drift?

[ProSense]

6. So Clark would go over there and tell the Iraqi government

they are a "cluster-fuck" operation? How diplomatic. But I don't believe that about Clark.

[Crazy Dave]

11. He may not say it to an Iraqi official....

but he sure hasn't been afraid to criticize the operation and he sure isn't trying to score points with the other side by lying to Americans about the ongoing efforts. Cluster-fuck is a common term used in the military and I'm sure that yes, he would not say that word on camera but words like "disaster", "failure", "poorly planned", and "illegal" that he has spoken in public translate the same message to me, myself an ex-military man.
:patriot:

[blm]

44. HAHAH...so you never noticed in all this time that Kerry and Clark's

positions on Iraq over these past 3 years are almost always aligned for the most part?

How interesting that obvious point managed to escape your notice.

[blm]

10. Bull. Kerry has always gone AGAINST the easy popular thing to do.

Most Dems wanted Kerry to drop his investigations into IranContra. Then the entire Dem powerstructure OSTRACIZED Kerry for years because of his BCCI investigation. Not popular.

Kerry was the first to submit gay-friendly legislation in the Senate. Kerry advocated for gays to serve openly in the military when few Dems would stand with him - it was Wes Clark who gave Kerry back up on that position - few politicians. Not popular.

Kerry was screaming about the import of anti-terror efforts LONG BEFORE 9-11. Not popular.

Kerry advocated for felons to get back their voting rights when few would stick up for them. Not popular.

Kerry was ALWAYS against the death penalty. Not popular.

Kerry advocated for public financing of campaigns since 1985 and he and Wellstone drafted a Clean Elections bill which nearly every politician ignored. Not popular, especially with lobbyists and corporate pacs.

Kerry worked for 10 yrs to help craft Kyoto Protocol. Very unpopular in the US.

I would also challenge you to name one lawmaker who has investigated and exposed more government corruption than Kerry has. Exposing corruption is definitely NOT POPULAR in DC.

[Crazy Dave]

12. Things in the past?

Hey, we're talking about what's current. Like every time Bush fucks up Limbaugh and Hannity always say: "Clinton did it in 1994 too".
If you like Kerry, good for you.

[blm]

15. Be responsible for your claim against him. He doesn't do what's popular

and has proven that throughout his 35 years in public service.

And when is a man not judged by his entire record? Kerry's record is of doing the unpopular but right thing for decades. He didn't change overnight just because you think you can get away with saying it.

[Crazy Dave]

25. Since he's so "squeaky clean"...

good and honest, maybe he can investigate this:

"The Big Dig project has become a symbol of government contracting gone awry, known for its huge cost overruns that now total several billion dollars, and its admissions of mismanagement. " USAtoday.com, 2/5/04.

Sounds like the same thing as "no bid contracts" to me. I wonder how much went into his bank account?

[Mass]

29. Thanks for Republican smears!!!

[blm]

30. HAHA...Kerry and Kennedy called for the investigation into the Big Dig

a few years ago. Guess you didn't know that.

Why are you trying to smear Kerry with obviously false charges?

[MH1]

48. Got any evidence, or just republican lies? n/t

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

42. No, because you are repeating Republican smears.

I could not care less you dont like Kerry. I personnally do not like Edwards, but I dont repeat GOP smears about him.

[Crazy Dave]

43. Sorry Mass (as our debate is getting too heated) sincerely.

You are not my enemy. Bush is.
Peace:)

[blm]

55. Why not just answer the questions posed to you? Why post attacks that

were proven RW smears against Kerry over the years?

And when someone replies to your smears with HISTORIC FACT regarding Kerry's actual work, why do you ignore those facts in favor of attacking with MORE untrue smears, instead?

[Crazy Dave]

57. I can answer any way I want and have any opinion I fucking please....

and it's idiots that always say..."Duh....you're a republican" or "Duh....you're a freeper" whenever someone disagrees with them or has a different opinion. Kerry is an elitist asshole and obviously more stupid than a chimp otherwise how could someone lose an election to a total incompetent.
If you don't like it, tough fucking shit.

[blm]

58. Why not address posts in traditional forum manner? When someone replies

to you with reasoned answers why they disagree with your charge, why not address the substance of what is proffered?

[Crazy Dave]

59. You like Kerry, I don't

We'll leave it there. :) If you want to carry on so be it. You won't change my mind.

[blm]

60. People RESPECT lawmakers based on fact, and should hate them based on fact

and not lies. Hating them based on lies is why GOP operatives work these type of internet forums.

That's why I only ask you be responsible for the charges you made against him and be responsible to the truth you learn during the debate.

DU does have rules aimed towards all of us being more responsible when attacking Dem lawmakers using RW talking points.

That should be something we ALL adhere to as citizens of the board here.

[Crazy Dave]

61. Actually

If somebody does point out to me intelligently instead of "Duh....you're lying 'cause you're a freeper" I will do more research on the information and the source where I read it and publicly admit I had non-credible information. I don't have to respect anyone I don't choose to but they do have to earn it.
I sure hope this didn't keep you up all night because you just can't let it go can you? Me, I've got better things to do today like seeing where Kerry and Hillary will be hiding when the opportunity to filibuster Alito comes up.

[blm]

62. I gave you facts and information in a civil way. It was pointed out to you

that the charges you made were RW talking points, but you were not called a freeper.

If I accused a Dem of charges that were planted by the RW, then I would be happy to be told of their origin, so I would never make that mistake again.


This was the content of my original post to you. I did not attack you, I gave only facts. I would hope that civility and information based on facts is appreciated.



Edited on Thu Jan-19-06 05:27 PM by blm

Most Dems wanted Kerry to drop his investigations into IranContra. Then the entire Dem powerstructure OSTRACIZED Kerry for years because of his BCCI investigation. Not popular.

Kerry was the first to submit gay-friendly legislation in the Senate. Kerry advocated for gays to serve openly in the military when few Dems would stand with him - it was Wes Clark who gave Kerry back up on that position - few politicians. Not popular.

Kerry was screaming about the import of anti-terror efforts LONG BEFORE 9-11. Not popular.

Kerry advocated for felons to get back their voting rights when few would stick up for them. Not popular.

Kerry was ALWAYS against the death penalty. Not popular.

Kerry advocated for public financing of campaigns since 1985 and he and Wellstone drafted a Clean Elections bill which nearly every politician ignored. Not popular, especially with lobbyists and corporate pacs.

Kerry worked for 10 yrs to help craft Kyoto Protocol. Very unpopular in the US.

I would also challenge you to name one lawmaker who has investigated and exposed more government corruption than Kerry has. Exposing corruption is definitely NOT POPULAR in DC.

[Crazy Dave]

63. Well....even Howard Dean made the same comments as I

and to accuse him of using RW talking points would not be very "democratic" in my opinion.
Hey...can you show me, not tell me where Kerry did anything about the corruption and overspending with the "Big Dig" project? Any investigating? Did he sue anyone for all the claims against him for accepting money from the special interest groups?
These are FACTS that I would like to see you prove, not just state.

[blm]

64. You just did it again - You didn't reply to one fact about Kerry's efforts

over the years that showed he never based his work on popularity.

Then you just used a RW smear against him reBig Dig with no fact, completely disregarding DU ptotocol that any attack against a Dem lawmaker must have accompanying proof from a reputable source.

[Crazy Dave]

65. Fine...alert the moderaters

eom

[blm]

66. Just hoping for civil discourse - isn't that why we're all here?

I rarely alert moderators, and never alert as a first resort.

[Crazy Dave]

67. Very good then, I agree...

but not about Kerry though ;)
Peace :pals:

[blm]

69. It's not about Kerry, it's about spreading either FACTS or lies about him

and being RESPONSIBLE for the words we post.

Why avoid those very important facts as if they don't exist, while refusing to back down from RW lies? How does that further the Dem cause?

[blm]

41. That was in 1998 before Clinton's strikes that probably wiped out

most of the remaining WMDs Saddam had.

Bush invaded Iraq AFTER the most current intel from the weapons inspectors on the ground for two months were proving that Saddam HAD NOTHING LEFT.

No honest person could compare the two without the proper context.

And why are you relying on RW wingnut spin to invent a case? You certainly haven't answered one question directed at you or addressed the proof that shows you were wrong.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Kerry is a dammed good man

I would vote for him tomorrow. I am just saying perhaps we should drop the Iraq thing because we ain't leaving that place for a good long time. I hope I have clarified my position.

Don

[blm]

18. I understood your point, Don. I was addressing another post that

claimed he was being a politician who only said what was popular.

[Mass]

32. I know I agree with you and I am a Kerry supporter

what gets to me are the insults from people who dont even know what they are talking about.

[Zhade]

52. Yep, who cares about that "military still killing innocent Iraqis" thing?

:sarcasm:

Your willingness to 'drop' the illegal occupation of a country we illegally invaded condones the continuing deaths of many people who never harmed us.

[bigtree]

14. I'd take that wager

Clark hasn't gone that much further in his criticism of the events in Iraq than Kerry. It helps Wes that he's basically accountable to no one and if free to say whatever he wants without consequence, and Kerry is a sitting US Senator who took a diplomatic mission to the region as head of the Foreign Relation's Committee. I guess you think it would have been just fine for him to either trash the ruling authority in Iraq while he was there, or else cut them down behind their backs, but I think he had a measured response which will allow him to be more than a critic from the sidelines in crafting an end to the occupation. He's not my best horse for that, but he's not someone who I see as an obstacle either.

[blm]

19. It's also ironic in that Kerry and Clark have never been far apart in

their assessments of Iraq for the last 3 years, in factm they are usually aligned for the most part, yet some people haven't seemed to notice.

[ProSense]

5. It was an indictment of Bush's policy.

Iraq is a real place, not a made up one. There is no alternate Iraq in a parallel dimension to deal with.

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. "I voted for it...before I voted against it!"

Guess what? Kerry and the rest are just a dumb as everybody else.

[bigtree]

16. nothing more foolish than repeating the republican attack to criticize him

[The_Casual_Observer]

35. Actually, now days he said he would vote for it again.

[Mass]

39. Wrong.

It seems some people revel in being uninformed.

See my previous post.

[bigtree]

46. The IWR didn't give Bush the authority to do what he did

He disregarded it in his rush to invade and occupy Iraq. The IWR mandated that he exhaust all peaceful means and return to the UN security council before considering any military action. Bush could have deployed troops without the IWR under provisions of the War Powers Act which allows him to depoly and come back to Congress later. At that time Congress would have been in the position to either ratify Bush's deployment or yank the divisions back home, something they would have been loath to do, especially in the face of the republican majority. The IWR was actually a tool to try to put limits on Bush's behavior, the ONLY tool available to an outnumbered minority. Kerry sought and got the language about exhausting peaceful means and a return to the security council included in the IWR. In fact, the more relevant bill to cementing their deployment, the $87 billion in funding, was voted against by Kerry.

[The_Casual_Observer]

47. Iraq was done based on the kind of reasoning and argument

that is employed by cheap lawyers and talk radio hacks on a daily basis. Simply approving something CALLED the IWR was enough to to give them license to invade, never mind the actual content. The UN resolutions didn't give them any rights either. Every step of the way astute guys like Yoo paved the way with bogus resolutions that gave cover to the whole enterprise. Few spoke out about what was happening, and those few were quickly discredited and branded appeasers and so on.

[ProSense]

54. Never mind the actual content? Of FISA and the Constitution too? n/t

[blm]

20. You think he's wrong to STRESS political solutions over military ones?

Please explain how that is dumb.

[ray of light]

23. time to go observe more. Seems like you know nothing about gov't policies

[The_Casual_Observer]

31. Thanks for your illumination about "government policies"!

[ray of light]

37. Here's help.

http://clerkkids.house.gov/laws/

Learn how a bill becomes law.


http://bensguide.gpo.gov/6-8/lawmaking/

1. When a Representative has an idea for a new law, s/he becomes the sponsor of that bill and introduces it by giving it to the clerk of the House or by placing it in a box, called the hopper. The clerk assigns a legislative number to the bill, with H.R. for bills introduced in the House and S. for bills introduced in the Senate. The Government Printing Office (GPO) then prints the bill and distributes copies to each representative

2. Next, the bill is assigned to a committee (the House has 22 standing committees, each with jurisdiction over bills in certain areas) by the Speaker of the House so that it can be studied.
The standing committee (or often a subcommittee) studies the bill and hears testimony from experts and people interested in the bill. The committee then may release the bill with a recommendation to pass it, or revise the bill and release it, or lay it aside so that the House cannot vote on it. Releasing the bill is called reporting it out, while laying it aside is called tabling.

3. If the bill is released, it then goes on a calendar (a list of bills awaiting action). Here the House Rules Committee may call for the bill to be voted on quickly, limit the debate, or limit or prohibit amendments. Undisputed bills may be passed by unanimous consent, or by a two-thirds vote if members agree to suspend the rules.


http://thomas.loc.gov/home/lawsmade.toc.html

Table of Contents
Foreword
I. Introduction
II. The Congress
III. Sources of Legislation
IV. Forms of Congressional Action

Bills
Joint Resolutions
Concurrent Resolutions
Simple Resolutions
V. Introduction and Referral to Committee
VI. Consideration by Committee

Committee Meetings
Public Hearings
Markup
Final Committee Action
Points of Order with Respect to Committee Hearing Procedure
VII. Reported Bills

Contents of Reports
Filing of Reports
Availability of Reports and Hearings
VIII. Legislative Oversight by Standing Committees
IX. Calendars

Union Calendar
House Calendar
Private Calendar
Corrections Calendar
Calendar of Motions to Discharge Committees
X. Obtaining Consideration of Measures

Unanimous Consent
Special Resolutions or "Rule"
Consideration of Measures Made in Order by Rule Reported from the Committee on Rules
Motion to Discharge Committee
Motion to Suspend the Rules
Calendar Wednesday
District of Columbia Business
Questions of Privilege
Privileged Matters
XI. Consideration and Debate

Committee of the Whole House
Second Reading
Amendments and Germaneness Rule
The Committee "Rises"
House Action
Motion to Recommit
Quorum Calls and Rollcalls
Voting
Electronic Voting
Pairing of Members
System of Lights and Bells
Recess Authority
Live Coverage of Floor Proceedings
Back to Top

XII. Congressional Budget Process
XIII. Engrossment and Message to Senate
XIV. Senate Action

Committee Consideration
Chamber Procedure
XV. Final Action on Amended Bill

Request for a Conference
Authority of Conferees
Meetings and Action of Conferees
Conference Reports
Custody of Papers
XVI. Bill Originating in Senate
XVII. Enrollment
XVIII. Presidential Action

Veto Message
Line Item Veto
XIX. Publication

Slip Laws
Statutes-at-Large
United States Code
Appendix

Select List of Government Publications
Earlier Printings
Back to Top

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

9. This Is The Guy Some People Here Want To Run Again In '08?

I really think the Democrats really don't care about winning, and are more interested in the $ and their own egos. There are a myriad of reasons I would NEVER vote for Kerry again, and this is just one of them.

[Crazy Dave]

17. I'm with you and the rest who think alike

Understand that I did vote for him as it was just too damn important. I fight hard in the primaries to help or hurt the democratic candidates that I favor or oppose. I was behind Dean, then after he was out Edwards who I started liking even more than I did at first. It was a damn shame after the Kerry handlers got ahold of him. It really was.
No matter what though, I always vote with the party even if it's not my guy. Better luck in the next primaries.

[Mass]

27. So you were for Edwards and you are blasting Kerry for his position

on the war?.

[blm]

24. You disagree that political solutions should be stressed over military

actions?

Can you explain?

[ray of light]

26. cool. Then we can expect to see you run..

[TallahasseeGrannie]

22. Kerry is not my favorite

but gosh, it sounds like he is trying to be fair and honest here. He just doesn't know. I respect that. It is a complex situation and a chaotic place and just a few days of touring aren't going to clear it up.

[ray of light]

28. I'm not sure who is my fav in 08 but that's why these attacks on this

thread are so stupid. A billion things can happen in three years.

I'm also trying to keep an open mind about all politicians. Not just Kerry. Because there is never ever one right answer one hundred percent of the time. And people do the best they can.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. I think he does try to be fair.

He's an intellectual and looks at all sides of an issue. I admire that, although it probably lost him the election.

[ray of light]

38. I agree. And most of all you can see he lives his life with integrity

and has always tried to help others. He easily could have joined the Bush selfish clan, but instead chose a path to actually help others.

[seabeyond]

45. no way. another attack kerry. all the rove quotes coming out to play

how many times can democrats bash kerry with voted for before voted against, with a serious face. like a single person doesnt know that was the dumbest of the bushco cult play, and so many on this board readily jump on willingly with every kerry bashing thread, with what appears like not a single bet of embarrassment. if i so willingly and easily fell for repug and media games, i would be totally humiliated. but then that is just me, wink

[rsmith6621]

49. Kerry Is The King Of The DLC

We are wasting our time following Kerry around like he is GOD........Kerry aint worth another minute or byte of broadband to discuss.....also neither is Hillary Clinton the Queen.

[seabeyond]

50. go dude, tell our dems to just shut up. then you can call them spineless

if it isnt repugs or media telling our dems to shut up. then it is our dems telling our dems to shut up. your post makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

[blm]

51. Really? Name one lawmaker who has effected this nation's actual history

more positively over the last 35 years than John Kerry has?

Who's efforts helped end more wars than the three Kerry worked to end?

Who's efforts uncovered more government corruption than Kerry's investigations into IranContra, BCCI, illegal wars in Central America, CIA drugrunning?

Who submitted the first gay-friendly legislation in the senate? Worked for 10 years on Kyoto? Normalized relations with Vietnam?

If you think Kerry deserves to be ignored, then the 30+ year GOP operation against Kerry that was started in Nixon's WH worked with some of you, didn't it?

[Zhade]

53. I'm not Kerry'd biggest fan, but you're WAY off.

Biden, Feinstein, Clinton, Liberman - these guys and gals are a lot more DLC than Kerry.

[blm]

56. It's been proven MANY times that Kerry has the furthest left voting record

of any member of the DLC, and further left than many nonDLC members. The DLC cannot dictate how a member votes, just asks them to consider a centrist approach.

[Zhade]

70. Nah, the DLC worries itself about corporate cash and backing illegal wars.

I'm not convinced Kerry is totally %100 in line with those things. The others I listed, though - very much so.

[stepnw1f]

68. Got a Link? (nt)