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In the grand scheme of things, have most Cubans been better

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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:16 PM
Original message
In the grand scheme of things, have most Cubans been better
or worse with Castro, compared to Batista?

Yes, I know that the wealthy and the property owners left Cuba after Castro took over and are now dancing in the streets of Miami, but what about the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses?
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm watching CNN en espanol
and I do not see any black Cubans dancing in the streets of Miami!?
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Bushknew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. exactly
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 07:25 PM by Bushknew


Our leader at work.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
8.  Cubans in Miami cheer news of Castro's illness
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/31/miami.castro.ap/index.html



People in Miami's Little Havana celebrate the news of Castro's illness Monday night.
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rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. better or worse?
the masses in Cuba still look pretty tired and poor. While Batista was a thuggish dictator, Im certainly not going to glamorize Castro and his authoritarian regime.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Maybe that's why they have a better life span
than Americans. Check their infant mortality rate as well. All their heath indices are up there with the best in the world. They eat no junk food, have great health care, dental care and education and it's all free.

Ask the poor where you are what democracy has done for them. Even the middle class can't afford health care or college education for their children. It's best to educate yourselves on developments in other countries rather than spew Fox or CNN cliches. Say one thing for the BBC, they still present facts and engage in informed discussions about developments on our planet.
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rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. good to be well fed, but not free?
Every time someone defends the Castro regime they cite the health care system they have in place-- which is indeed admirable. But does that excuse the total lack of freedom the average citizen in Cuba has?

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Are you free to go to
Cuba? Are poor people in your country free to get a decent education, health care?
If you think freedom to vote for a group of millionaires who don't give a damn about you or yours is freedom, then enjoy it. As I understand it you're free to go to Walmart and I pass on that one.
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rsr1771 Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. talk about cliches
Well if you embrace the authoritarian regime of Castro and justify it because everyone is equally poor as opposed to this country, where we have poor, middle class and rich people, then im not going to change your mind.

I know its hip to think revolution is cool- but the Cuban revolution was over 40 years ago and at some point the revolutionaries have to govern and set up a system which peacefully transfers power. I didnt know Castro's goal was to lead a revolution which would keep him in control until the day he died.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Not to glamorize Castro
but perhaps if our leaders understood some of the deep motivation for his revolution, just as there were many Communist leaders in the (then) new nations of Africa, instead of just boycotting and saying "no" - we all may have been better.

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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Them belly full but we hungry"
Economically Cubans are much better off under Castro than they were under Batista. But no free speech, free press, free assembly, no right to vote for candidates of their choice. No hunger, free and effective health care, good educational system.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Also excellent sex education and birth control.
No unwanted children!! No children working the streets selling stuff.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's hard to say
I mean...most Latin and South American economies took heavy loses in the 80's and 90's. Some have bounced back -- Argentina for examnple (albeit with Venezuelan aid)
History has a way of taking odd turns. My guess is they were initially better off, but in the last 10 years worse.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. it was either Castro or the mafia casinos and prostitutes and drugs..
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. it was either Castro or the mafia casinos and prostitutes and drugs..
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Why only the two choices?
Oh, I know why -- Castro held on to his power with an iron grip, that's why! Castro was definitely an improvement over Batista, but that's not really good enough for me to look at him with anything other than disgust.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. the historical stream at the time provided only 2 options, beyond anyones
control... you dont need to get on my case about that.. Batista was a shill of the mafia...he was the influence to bring them in..

Castro was the leader of a popular movement, do to the hostility of the americans over losing the vast wealth lost in not being able to turn Cuba into a vacation casino prostitute play land.. castro went to the only people who would help him and .. the Russians, and was corrupted by the power to keep the evil that would consume his country..the Russians or the USA and the mafia..

he probably could have done better if he had been better educated in the beginning




































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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
17. Cuba: Before and after the revolution
Before the 1959 revolution

  • 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
  • More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
  • 85% had no inside running water.
  • 91% had no electricity.
  • There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
  • More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
  • Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
  • The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
  • 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
  • 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
  • 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
  • 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
  • Racial discrimination was widespread.
  • The public school system had deteriorated badly.
  • Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
  • Police brutality and torture were common.

    ___



    After the 1959 revolution
    “It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

    Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

    -

    It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

    By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

    Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

    Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

    “Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

    Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

    “Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

    It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

    There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

    The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

    “Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

    Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.



    No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care needs to be forced on any population. Castro didn't give it to them either. Together, nearly all Cubans worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

    The Cuban people wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

    The people of Cuba wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it.

    Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

    Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


    Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.


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