? for the DU armchair pundits on targeting Hezbollah

[Maiden England]

So I've been reading a lot of condemnation on the DU on the tragedy at Qana. I'd like to pose a question for all the armchair experts.
You are in charge of Israeli defenses. There are rockets being fired at the civilians you are charged with protecting. The rockets are being fired by a group whose aim is to "free the Middle East holy lands of Jews".

The rocket launcher is parked right next to a civilian apartment block.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5200790,00.jpg
Edited to add, I thank you for pointing out its an anti-aircraft gun, I probaly wouldn't know the difference even if it was shooting at me, but its still parked in what appears to be a civilian neighborhood, which is the point.

What would you do? How would you ensure the safety of the citizens YOU protect? Its easy to sit back and spread a blanket of condemnation on others. Its not easy to put yourself in the shoes of others tasked with difficult decisions, and find a better solution, but sometimes the more enlightening discussion is not the easy one.

I'll go first.

What would I do? I'm not sure. Is it my fault if I target the launcher and instead hit the apartment complex, or the fault of the group using the complex as a shield. If I dropped leaflets in the area warning that I'm fixing to take out any launcher in that vicinity, even if its parked next to a children's hospital, give them 48 hours to evacuate, and if they don't, to avoid going into buildings with launchers parked next to them. Then end up killing a bunch of people who didn't leave, or whom were prevented from leaving by Hezbollah, in order to become human shields am I targeting civilians? Or am I doing my job of protecting my own civilians, whilst doing my best in a terrible situation to protect or at least do my best to protect innocent lives.

I think every decision would leave me with questions to wrestle with, but I believe I would choose to warn an area, give plenty of time for people to leave the area and hope that if they don't, they at least make the decision to avoid any buildings with launchers parked next to them. then target the launchers wherever they are. After all if there wasn't rockets being fired at my people, placed next to an apartment complex in the first place, I would have zero chance of hitting the civilian complex in the first place.

I'm not saying its the right decision. Its my first attempt, my gut reaction to the question posed. I'm biased, I'll admit that. Biased by the experience of spending time in Israel, listening to the soft thud of Ketusha rockets fired by Hezbollah, landing in the distance throughout the night in Israel, during a period of 'peace'. I was young and impressionable and the experience has remained with me always. I'd like to hear other ideas. Different ideas. Unbiased ideas, and ideas biased by another point of view. But most of all, I'd just like to hear ideas for a change, instead of condemnation for condemnation's sake.

[davidinalameda]

1. I'm curious to hear the replies as well

[Ms. Clio]

58. well, I hope you realize the difference between a "rocket launcher"

and an anti-aircraft gun, now.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. I'd make the prisoner swap and then abide by the UN resolutions

my country had been ignoring for so long.

That way, I could defuse the support for the asshole radicals on the other side and help the moderates gain some power.


edit for spelling

[Maiden England]

42. Sometimes I agree, but I have long term reservations

at least with prisoner swaps, you don't escalate the situation. But you do allow it to continue smoldering. I can't help but also thinking that at some point, you just want to say enough's enough. I presume thats what has happened to escalate the situation here.
Its also probably a good argument for not negotiating with terrorists, ever. Even if your people die, it stops the presumption, that all the terrorists have to do is rinse and repeat to gain a positive outcome.

[John Q. Citizen]

90. Well, what they have been doing hasn't been working so well.

I would say that the extremeist are in charge on both sides.

Most people just want to raise there families and go to the park and enjoy the flowers on there free time.

People only take up arms when they feel there is no other way to get a little justice.

i mean who the hell wants to bomb and be bombed?

[treestar]

3. This question gets asked over and over and we answer over

and over.

Many solutions have been proposed by DUers and repeatedly.

At least they're suggestions.

The position that some seem to take that there is nothing else whatsoever that the Israelis can do is ludicrous. It shows lack of imagination, lack of any real desire to try anything else.

For one thing, there is intelligence. What happened to the Mossad? Have the Israelis created so much good will in the areas surrounding them that nobody will help them - nobody to point out where the actual terrorists must be hiding?

I'm sure there will be someone saying they would refuse to. But not every single one of them. There have been double agents in history, and there have been civilians who do not condone an evil done amongst them.

Israel has more sophisticated technology, too.

If Israelis went and settled in the occupied territories, it's hard for me to believe they have such a fear factor of the surrounding areas, too. Some were willing to live there, "surrounded by enemies" literally.

[Imperialism Inc.]

12. But if they don't like the solutions they ignore them and say

"you have no solutions." Same tactic the Republicans use.

Dem: "But, I said let's have a single payer health care system". Rep: "Democrats have no solutions of their own to offer for the health care problem."

[Junkdrawer]

4. NPR had a man in Qana who saw NO Hezbollah rocket launchers...

anywhere in Qana.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5592728

[ThomCat]

11. That would not be surprising.

All Israel needs is one person throwing a rock to justify a military campaign to cause massive carnage. Aftet that first rock they can spin things to make it look like the end of the world.

[Imperialism Inc.]

5. I would have addressed the root problem long ago.

I would stop building settlements in occupied lands in violation of international law. I would stop carving up those lands and isolating the population, stealing their resources and generally treating them like dogs. This way I would undermine any support the extremists have.

[Maiden England]

45. I agree

I think if you do whatever you can to help the people who are the target to support terrorism, you destry the base from which the terrorist draws support. Most people do judge actions louder than words, and if in the face of terrorists and their propaganda, you repeatedly ignore whatever you can, and 'kill the people with kindness' so to speak, it would deprive the terrorists of their power base.

I mean, right now, all thats happening is that there is a whole new generation of Lebansese children learning to 'hate the Jews'.

It takes a brave man to break such a cycle of hatred, but it needs to be done. But thats really on both sides too. I mean, the Palestinans still have to accept the deal.

I'd have like to have seen Israel helping to set up a Palestinian State in Gaza/Westbank. Assistance for infrastructure and housing. Guarantees of free trade and passage for work. Even as far as seeing Jerusalem as a city state under UN/internation control as an indepedent city of worship for all people, under the control of no one religion.

That would help, and it would certainly highlight terrorist actions purely because they were anti-Jews having the State of Israel for what they were, as hopefully there wouldn't be a Palestinan oppression to detract attention.

[ThomCat]

6. False assumption.

You're assuming that Israel is actually attempting to target only Hezbollah, and in the process they are getting some civilians. There is no actual evidence that this is the case.

They've lobbed missiles at almost every single village, town and city in Southern Lebanon. They are using cluster bombs. They have targetted apartment farms, factories, and ambulances. The goal is clearly maximum civilian damage.

[mike_c]

7. that's an ANTIAIRCRAFT GUN parked next to the apartment block....

Not a "rocket launcher" at all. It's a defensive weapon, presumably moved there to defend against Israeli air strikes. Nice propaganda attempt, though.

[Bretttido]

16. Why must you point out facts that help tha terrrrists?

Why do you hate America?

[Maiden England]

37. Apologies for the wrong picture

I wanted to post a grab from the CNN video showing launches next to apartment complexes, but I wasn't savvy enough to be able to and thought this was the same thing.
It doesn't change the premise of the question one iota though. If you actually wanted to have a stab at answering instead of deflecting that is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. The "rocket launcher" is an anti-aircraft gun.

Just thought that I would point that out.

As to targeting rocket launchers and/or anti-aircraft guns parked next to apartment buildings in which civilians live, I find it as disgusting as firing rockets at cities occupied by civilians.

Let me ask you this: If Hezbullah or Hamas fighters were to "leaflet" the areas they are targetting would that alleviate them of responsibility for killing civilians that didn't evacuate?

[Marie26]

9. It's not a rocket launcher

I'm not a military expert, but that pic. doesn't look anything like a Katuysha rocket launcher. Maybe Hiz. is launching rockets from civilian locations, but that picture doesn't prove it.

[truebrit71]

10. I'm in charge defending Israel? Then I move my forces the fuck out....

...of Lebanon and back into Israel and stop making up bullshit excuses to kill innocent civilians....

[malaise]

47. Then I'd finally agree to UN Resolution

242. Nothing else will work.

[librechik]

102. ...and release political prisoners of all stripes(including children)

and ya know, maybe they wouldn't want to shoot at me so much.

[LA lady]

13. Pictures have been debunked

These pictures from Australian media have been pretty well debunked. Apparently they are not even Hezbollah but Palestinians. Anti aircraft guns not rocket launchers. I will try to find the source...

[catmother]

23. has this picture been debunked?

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

[jayfish]

27. What Is Supposed To Be Debunked?

The guy with the AK-74 standing, what looks to be, about 1/2 mile from a population center or the morans voguing it up on a AAA system that couldn't hit an F-16 the day it came off the assembly line?

Jay

[catmother]

32. hey i don't know anything about weapons. someone sent me

that picture yesterday.

[QuestionAll...]

14. I would have made the exchange of prisoners

as has been done in the past, and avoided this carnage.

but I don't have bush or his neocons or PNACers whispering in my ear or threatening me.

[pennylane100]

15. I just finished listening to Robert Fiske,

He was being interviewed by Amy Goodman after viewing the bodies of the thirty plus children that were killed in that attack. It was unbelievable how much death and destruction there was.

He also made a very good point that when the IRA traveled from Ireland to Northern Ireland to kill British soldiers, the british did not try to bomb Ireland into the dust, they went after to people doing the killing, this was the right thing to do according to Tony Blair at the time, what is so different now, are Lebonese children's lives worth less than those of of Ireland.

[breakaleg]

20. I read that as well.

That is the most similar point in all of this. I think Israel should take a page from Britian's book and seek out a peaceful solution if they can, and in the meantime, try covert operations that ensure all civilians are safe.

[magellan]

55. Indeed

"Do not cry havoc, where you should but hunt with modest warrant."

[QuestionAll...]

17. what you say here doesn't make sense...

"""but I believe I would choose to warn an area, give plenty of time for people to leave the area and hope that if they don't, they at least make the decision to avoid any buildings with launchers parked next to them. """"

wouldn't Hez bolt the area as well? How are you going to warn the civilians and yet leave Hezbollah in the dark as to what the plan is. I'm supposing you are not a general or a war strategists, but the IDF have actually tried to sell this tripe as well. What a bunch of nonsense.

[catmother]

18. i would not want to be in that position. but if i was i would do

what israel did. i'm not jewish, but i'm almost 65 years old and i remember all the years of israel being attacked. they are fighting for their existence. my husband was raised by anti-semitic parents but fortunately he learned to think on his own and he feels israel is right.

these last few weeks have brought out so much anti-semitism. here, on DU, i've been flamed, called a freeper and worse. my threads have been locked -- some of my posts have been deleted.

i almost want to stay away from DU, but there are too many good people here for me to do that.

from the time i was in my 20s i always wanted to visit israel and egypt. i used to say "as soon as things calm down over there, i'm going." here i am over 40 years later and nothing has calmed down.

i'm feeling very sad -- sad for the loss of life on both sides -- sad that there are those who want israel wiped off the face of the earth, or into the sea -- sad at the anti-semitism i experienced just last week in a restaurant -- sad at the comments of mel gibson.

:cry:
:scared:

[tabasco]

19. Send in a battalion task force on an airmobile assault.

Next question.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Boy, that is pretty sloppy.

Did you even look at the picture?

[Maiden England]

51. That's pretty sloppy too. Did you even *read* the post?

To answer your question, yes, but not being military, I didn't know it wasn't the same kind of launcher as the in video I'd seen on CNN of apparent launches from next to buildings.

I also didn't stop to think about what a wonderful excuse it would be for some people to concentrate on the picture instead of reading the original premise and actually bothering to answer the question posed.

Sometimes I guess I just assume too much of people

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Yeah, I read your post.

It was full of shit. Particularly the picture. Which is why people concentrated on it.

:nopity:

[Maiden England]

67. thank you for such an intelligent answer

you really added to this debate

:sarcasm:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. So, sloppy...

when was this time of "peace" that you were in Israel listening to Katyusha rockets?

[Maiden England]

77. I was on a school trip to Israel when I was 14 years old

Stayed on a Moshav (a farming community) about 5 miles from the Lebanese border (you could see the fences with the naked eye). Not sure which part of the border it was though as I can't remember the name of the Moshav.
It was 1989. Yes I am aware Israel occupied parts of S. Lebanon at the time.

[Karmakaze]

22. First of all, I still have not seen any proof

of rocket launchers being placed next to apartment complexes.

The only "evidence" ever provided for this claim was that video taken from low altitude on the other side of the town with rockets rising up in the background. How far away the rockets are is impossible to tell, no attempt was made by whatever was recording the launch to even SEE the launcher. Instead, seemingly intentionally, it was left hidden behind the foreground so that there was no way of telling how close it was. I have to wonder why.

In your post you show an image of an ANTI-AIRCRAFT gun, the kind of thing sited to PROTECT areas from air attack. Considering so many of Israel's attacks have been against civilian buildings, is it any wonder this gun would be sited to protect them?

Finally, your last argument is actually misleading for the simple fact that even the IDF has admitted they werent targeting the LAUNCHER they claim was firing from Qana (for example). Instead, they claim the people who fired it were seen running into a civilian apartment building so they bombed that. THERE is the difference between your argument and reality. Sure it would be totally justified to attack the launchers, even if it risked civilian casualties. But the IDF has admitted going further than that. They have admitted intentionally targeting large apartment complexes simply to kill a few terrorists who manned such a launcher but who had run to hide in a civilian building (assuming we believe their version of events).

Now you can bloviate all you want on warnings etc - but EVERYONE knows that these warnings are NOT working. They KNOW many people are still in these towns, and yet, to kill a few terrorists they will destroy whole apartment complexes.

The Israel apologists keep saying that those of us criticising Israel are falling into the Hizbullah trap, and that Hizbullah is forcing people to remain. Wouldn't that make those people hostages? Is it OK for Israel to intentionally KILL dozens or hundreds of hostages in an attempt to punish the "terrorists"?

No, the truth is it is all a lie. Israel doesnt give a fuck about the civilians - in fact they clearly stated that anyone who remains in the area are terrorist sympathisers and therefore legitimate targets. That is intentional murder of civilians, if they are right and Hizbullah won't let people leave.

The Israel apologists biggest error is not shutting the fuck up. They keep making excuses only to have the IDF put the lie to their excuses, then they have to come up with new contradictory excuses. Just like the UN post the IDF bombed. The latest spin is that the IDF DID intentionally target it, but they thought it was an Hizbullah post, because Hizbullah supposedly had previously flown their flag from similar UN posts. So first the IDF didn't bomb them, then the IDF did bomb them by mistake (an errant weapon or some shit) and now they bombed them intentionally but thought they were someone else.

Constantly changing excuses means one thing - ITS A LIE.

On edit: One other thing - there have been all sorts of press around that building in Qana, why havent they taken any pictures of the launcher the IDF was supposedly after? Even the burn marks on the ground left by the rocket's back blast would be evidence enough to prove the IDF's claim. So where are the pictures?

[Maiden England]

72. You make some great points

You really do.

I agree with you that there isn't enough care given to the civilians in the targeted areas. I agree with you that excuses for actions shouldn't be changing every two minutes.

I didn't want to try and make this an issue about whether or not the Israeli side was proven or not. Really I wanted to try and get alternative scenarios for dealing with the presented/percieved problem.


Following one of the premises of your post. If we treat the civilians in the area as hostages, then yes I agree that indescriminate bombing, not a good idea. If it was me, I'd want special ops boots on the ground. If there is launcher there, then it needs to be painted with a laser from a visual cue on the ground. That way, there isn't a chance of the building being hit. Assuming the bombs are capable of being that accurate. If there are operators running into the building, they need to be sniped. Not the building bombed. That would be my tactic. Of course, I'm about as much an expert on tactics as I am on the difference between rocket launchers and anti-aircraft guns.

[Karmakaze]

91. The thing is...

when the launcher is gone, any act of bombing the area is simply a case of revenge or punishment - there is no military necessity to bomb an area recently vacated by the enemy.

Israel has plenty of helicopter gunships and recon drones and planes, why can't they simply fly patrols and target only the launchers? The simple answer is they want to punish the population for supporting the fighters. So they wait until a rocket launch occurs, and then bomb the shit out of the surroundings, whether the launcher is still there or not.

That is exactly the same as rounding up and killing 10 civilians for every German soldier killed by the resistance. It is a war crime plain and simple. Collective punishment is a war crime, and that is exactly what the IDF is doing.

[SidDithers]

24. Discredited picture in a hit & run post...

:applause:

This one gets a K&R from me.

Sid

[Maiden England]

36. Hit and Run, or poster with a life

Good grief.

So the picture's wrong. I've been trying to grab a SS from this video on CNN,

which to my eyes looks like a rocket launcher next to a building. I couldn't. So have the link and get over the fact I'm a numb-skull who can't tell a launcher from an anti-aircraft gun. It doesn't prevent anyone from actually answering the question posed.

[Ms. Clio]

59. "what to my eyes looks like a rocket launcher"

yeah, you've seen a lot of them, obviously.

[Maiden England]

60. I never said I knew squat about weapons. Did you READ the OP?

I'm very fortunate to have grown up in a country where I didn't have know the difference between a rocket launcher and an AK47.

However, you're more than welcome to have a shot at giving an intelligent answer to the question in the OP, now you've finished nit-picking.

[Ms. Clio]

61. I am sick of seeing the same propaganda BS reposted continuously

and it's hardly a "nit-pick." The anti-aircraft weapons are there because Israel is bombing those and other residential neighborhoods.

[Maiden England]

78. Its not propaganda, its a question open to debate.

the B.S. is the diversionary war going on in the DU away from intelligent discussion.

[The Deacon]

25. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread

If I were in charge of defending Israeli citizens I hope I would have the basic knowledge to recognize a twin-barrel, semi-automatic, 23 millimeter ZSU anti-aircraft gun made in the Soviet Union circa 1970s & supplied, in large quantities, to Syria, Egypt and Iraq - but never to Lebanon or Iran. Most of the mounts Syria had were transferred to the PLO in Lebanon when the Soviets built an integrated Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) system for Assad just prior to the Yom Kippur War. Which would make sense since this is probably an old, archived photo of PFLP (member of the PLO) guerillas in South Beirut - the camoflage looks like theirs, not the all black "ninja suits" Hezbollah likes to wear. (Shame on you, Rupert Murdoch, for not coming up with better fakes, what with you having all those billions.)

[jayfish]

28. This Thread And Others.

Doesn't seem to matter though. It's as if the posts never existed.

Jay

[Maiden England]

39. Well then you'd be better than me to actually answer the question then

I don't know the difference. And I don't care. I got the picture wrong, shoot me, go ahead. I've been looking at the video running on CNN of something launching from next to an apartment. But screen grabs are aparently not my forte either. Would that have given the deflectors something less to gripe about? Probably. But still, does it make any actual difference the question posed. NO. So answer it. Be intelligent since you know so much about military equipment. Perhaps you'd make an intelligent point we could actually learn from.

[xultar]

26. Ground Troops. Use Drones and ground troops.

[jayfish]

29. Never!

That would end the threat, thereby depriving the Israeli government and BushCo of the propaganda victory they so desperately wanted.

Jay

[Lerkfish]

30. I'm always amused by the deflection of this sort of argument

"you don't like what we did? well, what would YOU do instead?"

the fallacy there is that because someone does a horrific thing does not get absolved if someone else cannot think of the best thing.
The situation is complicated, but all the more reason why wholesale slaughter is NOT the answer.

I can be at a loss as to the BEST answer, but I can certainly identify the WORST answer, and wholesale bombing of civilians is the WORST answer.

nice try.

[Maiden England]

50. I also like the deflection of 'its the wrong picture, Quick IGNORE the ?"

We all have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight here, and I don't think its too much to ask for alternative handling of the situation (or even agreeing with the handling) instead of the blithe 'oh thats terrible, they shouldn't have done that'.

[Lerkfish]

62. did I use that deflection?

no.

I still disagree that an inability to arrive the best solution absolves the wrong solution.

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. Get rid of Hezbollah. They make those people stay and

then they orchestrate a great press tour with ambulances and bodies. They USE those people and the people LET them use them...for Allah. Also, the people who are staying in Qana are family members of HEZBOLLAH fighters. They are staying to help. Reported on CNN today.


Nazrallah's own words support this.


Nasrallah purveys his message via Hezbollah’s own television network, Al-Manar, a primary engine of incitement to violence against Jews, Israelis and Americans. Al Manar’s stated mission is to "wage psychological warfare against the Zionist enemy." This is often done by glorifying attacks, particularly suicide missions against Israel. Last year, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar encouraging "martyrdom" among children, saying:

How can death become joyous? How can death become happiness? When Al-Hussein asked his nephew Al-Qassem, when he had not yet reached puberty: "How do you like the taste of death, son?" He answered that it was sweeter than honey. How can the foul taste of death become sweeter than honey? Only through conviction, ideology, and faith, through belief, and devotion.

We do not want to...leave our homeland to Israel... Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV , Feb. 18-19, 2005)

In May, Nasrallah appeared on Al-Manar TV to explain that "our nation's willingness to sacrifice their blood, souls, children, fathers, and families" is an advantage over the Jews "who guard their lives." (MEMRI: Al-Manar TV on May 23, 2006.)

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=11&x_article=1158

They also control ALL the propaganda that leaves Lebanon. They have copies of journalists passports, they take the journalist to ONLY the places THEY want seen, they stage the ambulances, line the bodies up for the cameras ...DISGUSTING ASSHOLES THAT THEY ARE... and they have also THREATENED some reporters. These people are NUTS. This isn't condemnation for condemnation's sake, it's condemnation because THEY DESERVE CONDEMNATION for what they are doing.

http://www.cjrdaily.org/politics/lifting_the_cover_of_the_hezbo_1.php

Anyway, again, in answer to your question...get rid of Hezbollah for CHANGE. That's the ONLY way.

[catmother]

33. i totally agree with you.

[SPKrazy]

52. I Do Too n/t

[newyorican]

105. Hyperbole and wishes for ethnic cleasing aside...

...the "problem" existed long before Hezbollah appeared on the scene.

[Joe for Clark]

34. I do wish Israel the best, really.

But this is their fight, not ours.

We have a lot of kids in the middle at this point, and I don't think their timing could be worse.

If their funding comes from us, they better be sensitive to our needs.

I don't think they are right now.

They may be right from their perspective - but it is not necessarily our perspective, either.

Joe

[davidinalameda]

35. assisting a democratic country against terrorists isn't our fight

then what is our fight?

do you want the US to just sit back and let theocrats take over and destroy a democratic country in a region where democracy isn't really big?

sad

[Joe for Clark]

44. There are a lot of bad guys out there.

Sometimes timing really is everything.

About the last thing we can tolerate is a third party taking our over stretched "rubber band" military and stretching it further.

And by the way - about the last thing we should support is democracy in an area of the world where democracy would produce such results - (in the PLO or other places).

I am not saying Israel is wrong, but they sure should not be left in a place where they can force our hand in a fundamentally flawed attempt to bring "democracy" to this region.

This is not our fight, at least not right now.

Joe

[davidinalameda]

87. they're not trying to bring democracy

they're trying to protect their people from terrorists whose primary goal is to wipe Israel off the map

how long before the terrorists launch something a bit more than simple rockets?

I'm concerned that they could very easily launch biological or even nuclear weapons into Israel

you have to remember that these are the same people who willingly strap bombs to their bodies to blow up Israeli citizens

I'm willing to be that they'd be more than happy to take out their own people to take out as many Israelis as they can

they're backed by Iran and we know that the "president" there is more than willing to sacrifice his own people-in fact, he's already lined up something like 5000 suicide bombers to join Hezbollah

[deaniac21]

38. Hezbollah are the good guys in all of this. I wish their leadership

was running our country.

[Maiden England]

41. Well I guess since most of us think *co are terrorists, they probably are.

:eyes:

[deaniac21]

43. You're reply makes no sense.

[Maiden England]

48. Why, you don't think Hezbollah are terrorists?

Feel free to expand on your reasons for calling them 'good guys'

[deaniac21]

92. You aren't good at defecting sarcasm.

[Crunchy Frog]

49. Aren't we doing pretty well already with Bush?

[SPKrazy]

53. I'm Hoping You Are Sarcastic

Otherwise you are saying that people that want to kill all he Jews are the good guys

[rockymountaindem]

68. WTF???

[Marie26]

96. Not me

I'm a little too fond of voting, having a career, and being allowed out in public w/o a male escort.

[Lurking Dem]

98. Weren't there a bunch of posts

yesterday claiming that no one on DU supported Hezbollah?

[Chulanowa]

40. To answer two of your questions...

"Is it my fault if I target the launcher and instead hit the apartment complex, or the fault of the group using the complex as a shield."

It's your fault. You have precision laser-guided munitions. I'm sure that if you wanted, you could aim a couple meters to the left.

"If I dropped leaflets in the area warning that I'm fixing to take out any launcher in that vicinity, even if its parked next to a children's hospital, give them 48 hours to evacuate, and if they don't, to avoid going into buildings with launchers parked next to them."

Here's the trick for telling people to evacuate - you don't blow up the escape routes first. If you happen to have left some intact and people are taking your advice and leaving, don't fire missiles into the convoy.

Both are "fucking duh" answers.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. I would understand that

these rockets are so incredibly primitive and ineffective that I would actually have the luxury of engaging in a careful response done in such a way that it would avoid causing large-scale civilian death. Bearing that in mind, I would do what I could to take them out utilizing the much vaunted efficiency and technical superiority of IDF forces.

Looking at the bigger picture, I would try to figure out what underlying conditions are providing such a fertile ground for extremist groups, and would attempt to address these. I think that I would try to focus on being a much better neighbor, and work on engendering genuine respect from those in surrounding countries, rather than doing things that only engender hate and anger.

[Ms. Clio]

56. ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS = DEFENSIVE WEAPONS

Looks like even us "armchair pundits" know that much.

These pictures are so laughable. SLOPPY propaganda.

[Maiden England]

63. CAN YOU READ? OR DO YOU JUST LOOK AT THE PRETTY PICTURES

Really. Are done nit-picking. Done with the diversionary tactics. Because if you'd like to follow me to a few other of the side-thread, where I already apologised for getting the picture wrong and point it out, it would almost certainly make that point even clearer!



I got the picture wrong, because I'm obviously not as in to military weapons as you. Great, its now established as DU fact. I'm so glad we got that one sorted. Because every armchair pundit knows if they ask you a question about rocket launchers and show you a picture of AA guns, you no longer have to answer the question, but instead follow the OP around pointing out how obviously clueless they are, which even the OP isn't denying.


Now read the question asked and if you have anything intelligent to add to the debate posed, please feel free.

[Ms. Clio]

64. I don't need you to tell me how or what to post, thanks

And I want to make sure others who see this thread will see that the OP was wrong.

[Maiden England]

70. IMAGINE THE PICTURE IS A ROCKET LAUNCHER

if it helps to understand the point of the OP.

The OP is a dumbass for not knowing the difference. Ms. Clio has done a sterling job in pointing that out on numerous occasions. The OP apologised in numerous places, for getting this one thing wrong. I'm big enough and ugly enough to admit when I fucked up. Loooong before Ms. Clio took on her mission.

But I want to make sure others that see this thread will understand the question posed in the OP.

[Ms. Clio]

71. okay, just so you are perfectly clear on this

LOL

[Maiden England]

75. Crystal

[datasuspect]

76. IMAGINE THE PICTURE IS A NUCLEAR WARHEAD AIMED AT TEL AVIV

sarcasm

i mean why settle for a rocket launcher to manufacture hatred for the lebanese and dehumanize them further?

[Maiden England]

80. except for the fact the OP is about a rocket launcher

gee, I'm only settling for the original question.

Really why do you people think that shouting makes your point sound valid. Or am I posting on the FR by accident
:eyes:

[datasuspect]

81. i was imitating you

hurry up and edit that if you must.

and simply using your logic.

[Maiden England]

83. I was imitating Ms. Clio

Quick go read the *whole thread* this time.

BTW, my logic is totally fallible. You may not want to use it.

[datasuspect]

85. eh, i at least wanted to try it out

salaam

[Ms. Clio]

89. on your best day you could not imitate me, ducky n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Can I IMAGINE IT'S GODZILLA, PICKING UP A SUBWAY TRAIN?

/snark

A better solution is to help the UN work with the leadership of Lebanon who wants help ridding the country of Hezbollah.

[Rex]

57. Do you take responsibility for your actions?

That is the question. Can you live with innocent blood on your hands and still be able to kiss your newborn/young one goodnight? Can you still look people in the eye and say, 'yes I killed a mother and her 4 children, but it was in defense of Israel'. War is nothing but irresponsible people committing murder and justifying it as war. Period.

[Joe for Clark]

65. I think that is right.

[Maiden England]

66. You have to. But you have to be sure you did everything you could

to try and bring a peaceful resolution first. If I tried and tried and tried and only as my last resort, when I couldn't take the bombardment from Terrorists any longer, I resorted to these actions. Then I could sleep at night with the consequences.
I'd have to know I could stand up to international scrutiny and say, that I really did, in all honesty try to avoid this outcome.

[Rex]

69. That is the crux of the problem; war isn't used as the last resort.

Not from what I've seen so far. So far, we have two groups that don't want to sit down and talk things out, maybe never wanted to. What they want is for the other side to leave them alone in peace. Which won't happen because they both want to live on the same land, without the other group.

There can be no peace until that is resolved in my opinion.

[Maiden England]

86. It seems to be that whenever peace comes to be talked about

there is always one side that feels its more advantageous to be at war at that moment in time. How on earth do you overcome that? On one hand the hatred on both sides seems to be too deep to overcome, and yet on the other, there are examples of peace being truly achievable - Jordan and Eygpt for one.
I sure wish I had a magic solution to make all sides come to the table to truly seek a lasting peace.

[Rex]

88. No idea.

That is such a good question.

[Mythsaje]

73. 20 to 30 elite fighters

used in multiple soft insertions into Lebanon, broken up into small groups and synched to converge on the battery at a set time. Eliminate the guards and the guns, and then retreat back into Israel.

Sure, it's dangerous, but the advantage is that is doesn't kill dozens of innocents.

[DistressedAmerican]

79. Thank You. The Obvious Solution For Anyone REALLY Concerned

about civilian deaths.

[Maiden England]

82. That is a much much better plan.

It should be worth the risk to minimize civilian casualties. In fact its just wiser tactically, all those civilians affected just produce a whole new generation to hate Israel. How can that be a good tactic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Unfortunately this is the Hollywood solution to the

problem

Sure you can do this once, maybe twice, after that... better be ready to get your people suported fully with land-air elements...

[Mythsaje]

109. Then you DO it once or twice

and change tactics once it no longer works.

What they're doing now sure as hell isn't working. And it's making enemies left and right.

[k_jerome]

100. can we get Steven Seagal to lead the team...

ha

[Mythsaje]

108. He's too fat now...n/t

[eridani]

84. What did the British do when they were being terrorised--

--by militants from Northern Ireland? That ought to work for Lebanon as well.

[wtmusic]

93. Another lecture from an armchair pundit on armchair pundits

at least there's some experience talking :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. The cycle has to be broken

how? Using our experience may not be too good but let me try

1.- We need a VIABLE palestinian state... yes the two state solution with TWO viable states must be worked out

2.- Jerusalem, that nice chess nut, must be an International City, under co-management of both the Palestinian State and the Jewish State. As to Capitals, sorry, this is AN INTERNATIONAL CITY, therefore will not serve as capital for either. I'd go so far as to build an International Airport to serve those who travel to the holy sites from all over the world.

3.- Since the cycle must be broken the extremists on all sides must be brought to heal

4.- A Truth and Reconciliation Commission, or the equivalent, must be established. Why? This will help all involved deal with the parallel foundation myths and maybe come to a common history where BOTH sides recognize what they have done to the other. This ranges from events in 1948 (ethnic cleansing) to recent suicide bombers in Israel

5.- Eduction: Both sides have a problem for they have effectively created the other. Student exchanges and kids going to oh Jordan University from Tel Avid and Palestinian kids going to Rambam University will cut down a lot of the misunderstanding and open doors for people to people contact, essential in destroying the image of the other.

6.- As to Lebanon, the current chess nut, an international force must be brought in and ensure that the National government has control over the state, and its land, not militias. Hisbollah wants to play, fine politics. Moreover, the central lebanese government must be made to understand that if they are going to win hearts and minds in the soutb they need to give the services so far given by Hisbollah and bring the shia into the national experience. Otherwise, we can spin anything we want...

[Marie26]

97. Sounds good.

But disarming Hizbollah seems impossible right now & everything Israel is doing is only giving them more support from Lebanon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. It is not as impossible as you think

Here is the problem.

1.- Hisbollah (and many in the Arab world, not unique to them) see Israel as a product of Imperialism, never mind that the whole map of the ME is a product of Western Imperialism.

2.- Any European force meant to disarm them, (the central government does not have the capacity), will be seen as Imperialism 101, and partly it is.

3.- Even though this is the case, they MUST BE disarmed, as well as Hamas and any other irregular militia in the area (Yes I include settlers here)

Speaking of Settlers, they will have to be given a choice, back to behind the green line, or now you are a citizen of a new arab state, that will have to GUARANTEE your rights as a minority,

But in the short term, sections of this will be seen as imperialism in the area and will inflame passions. One way, partially, out of this, is to have those international troops go down with Lebanese forces.

[JNelson6563]

103. It depends

Are we talking about protecting Israeli citizens within Israel proper or Israeli citizens that are living in the illegally occupied Palestinian territories?

Julie

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Yuo realize that K'yat Shmona and Haifa

are WELL BEHIND the green line? Or you are just trying to distract? Why not try to give a solution instead of the usual platititudes?

[JNelson6563]

107. Pardon me but

I have not participated in this discussion on DU. It's been so ugly and your post is no exception. I asked a simple question and I didn't specify any area, I simply said that the "Israel's defending itself" argument may or not be valid, depending on where the claim is being applied to. Take the nasty stuff to the IP forum, would ya? Or perhaps you don't want new people to join the discussion and so accusatory comments are posted as deterrent?

What is one new to the discussion to think of such a hostile tone in response to a reasoned inquiry? :shrug:

Julie

[GeorgeGist]

106. Can you justify...

destroying defenseless innocent lives as self-defense?