How many were against the U.S. going into Afganistan

[still_one]

when the Taliban REFUSED to give up bin laden?

Hezbollah fired 10 MISSLES from Qana. In addition, Israel DID NOT know that civilians were sheltering in a Qana building. That does NOT make it right, but that is what happened

People argue on the disporportinate use of force by Israel, and the world goes crazy. Suddenly the world has a conscience.

Where was the WORLD outcry in Sudan, Rawandi, Serbia, the killing fields, etc.

What makes THIS different then the others? Is one life more precious than another?

Where was the media talking about the civillians killed in Iraq? There was no outrage, and we are talking in excess of 100000 civillians!!!

What makes this different?

Perhaps it is the television station Al-Manar well-known for extreme messages and anti-Jewish themes, including the broadcasting of programs based on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"-a paradigmic anti-Semitic tract first developed by the Russian Czars and then distributed by the
Soviets.

Perhaps it is the collective hatred that has gone on for thousands of years against the Jews, and this is the perfect opportunity to express it

Go ahead, defend hezbollah, defend Iran, defend the hate that is preached by Wahhabi preachers and schools that are training new generations of Muslims to hate Jews and hate America.

What you are defending is those that wanted to KILL Salman Rushdie. Remember Iran put out a fatwa against him for writing a book

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhWgzFRPpzQ&search=mullah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW5yJ-wv9lM&mode=related&search=mullah

[soothsayer]

1. I thought we should have fought the Taliban since the Bamiyan

Buddhas incident. I'm still mad as hell that we didn't stop them from doing that. I guess Buddha wouldn't be mad tho, so there's the irony!

[H2O Man]

2. "Is one life more precious than another?"

One of the tragic errors in the conflict is thinking that one life is more precious than another. Humanity is not sitting on a fence, where one group will survive and prosper, while another suffers and dies off. As Martin warned, we will learn to live together as the extended human family, or we will die the lonely death of fools.

[still_one]

5. absolutely, but lets take a neutral example

Martin followed Gandi, who believed that non-violence works in all circumstances

I do NOT believe that approach would have worked with Hitler or Japan for that matter

[H2O Man]

11. Gandhi said

violence before cowardice. He made clear distinctions between the nonviolence of the brave and the nonviolence of the coward. And his approach in WW2 was not one of simplistic non-violence. Likewise, Martin's views on WW2 and war are surely not a simplistic faith in nonviolence. But I think that both would likely find the current situation in Lebanon one that demands a nonviolent approach. The evidence presented to us daily shows the failure of violence.

[still_one]

13. I tend to agree with you on their views regarding Lebanon

but there is no doubt in my mind that the non-violent approach would NOT have worked against hitler.

[H2O Man]

22. I'm not aware

of any significant debate concerning WW2 as far as the need for a negotiated settlement to the current war versus an increase in violence. We need to focus on keeping former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich's wet dream of a WW3 from taking place.

Having said that, I would think the nonviolent approach would have been most likely to succeed had the German population attempted it before Hitler's power was secure. For people to turn their heads when the Hitler death machine was killing innocent victims was not nonviolence; it was cowardice.

[still_one]

23. we are definitely on the same page regarding ginrich and the republicans

and of course winning Congress in 2006

Turnout will be critical

[Yupster]

32. There's a short story written

I think by Harry Turtledove but I may be wrong.

The idea was that Russia had fallen to Hitler and British India then surrenders pretty much without a fight.

Field Marshall Walther Model is sent to India to be Nazi Governor and he quickly runs into Gandhi's marches.

He has the police pick him up for a talk, and finds him very interesting. He lets him go with a warning.

When another march is led by Gandhi, he has him picked up again, and this time has a brief talk with him while eating lunch. Then he has him taken out and shot as he comments on the poor sausage he gets in India. The story ends with him shrugging his shoulders and saying "oh well, perhaps dinner will be better."

[Karenina]

3. I did not support the bombing of Afghanistan

and to this day wonder where we'd be if the U.S. had started building roads, schools and hospitals while using Special Force to undermine the warlords. The Taliban DID OFFER to give Bin Laden up if the U.S. provided evidence of his involvement.

[still_one]

10. I appreciate your honesty, and admire your conviction

and consistency. The fact is most Americans, overwhelmingly favored the use of force in Afganistan

I believe that Taliban had no intention of giving up bin laden evidence or not, and there was plenty of evidence

I also thought that going into Iraq was wrong, and the worst mistake this country has made. Iraq was NOT responsible for 9/11, and poised no threat

Unfortunately, the idiots who ran our country did not pursue bin Laden in Afganistan, where the problem was, and diverted resources to Iraq, a totally unjustified war

[ixion]

19. yeah, I didn't support it, either

it was a brutish response, and a military one, to a criminal act.

This was crossroads in US policy, because 'terrorism' now became a military priority, rather than a criminal one. And that is the rationale that has been used to erode things like Posse Comitatus, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

[soothsayer]

26. Wasn't afghanistan just about that natural gas pipeline? obl was

just a reason to punish the taliban

[pooja]

4. I was, and have we found bin ladin yet. War is a weapon made

by men, so that innocents will die. Wars are never easy for the women or children. Wars have classic examples of rapping and pillaging, mass murders, burning villages and food supplies, taking slaves. War is not good. I don't care what side of the fence you want to sit on... I sit on the side with the innocents suffering on both sides. Ya'll need to get off the soap box and over your own prejudices and see the people who are crying. Those tears aren't fake.

[still_one]

12. I know they are real, but it seems the causes are selective

that people choose. Since you were against going into Afganistan, I assume that you are against all wars, and I can only say that is a noble trait. Nevertheless, I believe some wars are necessary. Incidently, I am NOT for pre-emptive war as in the case of Iraq

[Hubert Flottz]

6. I thought it was about the big pipelines the friends of shrub had

plans to build there, before 9/11. And I still do! Bin Laden was never taken, but the pipelne is being built.

[malaise]

7. War is not the answer

I am against all wars.

[still_one]

20. you are a better person than most people

and I am being sincere

[cali]

8. Israel didn't know?

Well they damned well should have.

[still_one]

18. Intelligence isn't what it used to be

[leftchick]

21. so bomb the crap out of them

and let God sort them out. It sounds like the failed US policy in Iraq.

[laura888]

9. I never supported bombing Afghanistan....

I am against U.S. involvement in any war unless it threatens us directly. That is not to say I don't support humanitarian intervention.

I am especially heart-broken by the U.S. involvement in Lebanon, and cannot believe the blood-thirsty comments from some posters on DU.

[EFerrari]

14. I was against going into Afghanistan.

And I am not defending hatred.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. wrong premise. they agreed to his extradition

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2004-10/13rai.cfm

[izzie]

16. I hate to tell you but I was up-set about the art.

Going in to a country that no one ever seems to win in seemed a little silly. Some how the USA thinks it can beat every one. You can not even get the people in this country to say we had any help in WW1 or WW2 or they really do not know we fought it with others. Almost like we have a new history going on. Like saying Fr. did not fight and forgetting they lost more military than we did. I even think that they fought longer than we did in Europe. And ever hear an Am. say that Russia fought with us? I guess if you spend all this money at DOD and say we are the greatest we have to think it so why not go after a back wards country . To bad we have not won yet. More fun to live in a fog.

[Missy M]

17. I was against the US going into Afghanistan....

my thinking being it was not the answer to what occurred on 9/11. There were other ways to deal with the perpetrators. What is going on now will only fuel more hatred for Israel and the US. I am not defending those who wanted to kill Salman Rushdie, I am defending all the innocents being killed in Lebanon, Iraq and Israel. War and violence is never the answer and what Israel is doing right now is wrong.

[ThomWV]

24. Point by Point

1. "when the Taliban REFUSED to give up bin laden?"

The Taliban did not refuse to give up bin laden out of hand. They demanded proof from the United States that bin laden was responsible for 9/11 and when the Bush Administration refused to provide that proof the Taliban refused to give up bin laden.


2. "Hezbollah fired 10 MISSLES from Qana. In addition, Israel DID NOT know that civilians were sheltering in a Qana building. That does NOT make it right, but that is what happened"

It is patently absurd to excuse firing of expolosives of any sort into any city or town with the expectation that no civilians might be sheltering in that town, and you are absolutely right, their claim to not understand that towns are populated by people does not make it right.

3. "People argue on the disproportionate use of force by Israel, and the world goes crazy. Suddenly the world has a conscience"

Not it is not sudden. People have been arguing against the excessive use of force by Israel from a time before the 1947 Establishment of the country by force. Israel has a short history, less than 60 years, of more or less constant inhumane treatment of the people from whom its territory was STOLEN following the second world war.

4. "Where was the WORLD outcry in Sudan, Rawandi, Serbia, the killing fields, etc."

Try reading the newspapers of the times each of those events took place. There was much world outcry and in each case with time the killing subsided. By contrast Israel has never abated in its killing of its neighbors.

5. "What makes THIS different then the others? Is one life more precious than another?"

As a stand alone paragraph this sentence has no defined subject. There is no way to know that the "This" that you find different actually is.


6. "Where was the media talking about the civilians killed in Iraq? There was no outrage, and we are talking in excess of 100000 civilians!!!"

Another patently absurd statement. The world has expressed its outrage over this mass killing since it began. Not only the newspapers of the world and more enlightened television stations but the new media as well. This website alone has hosted thousands of crys out outrage and this is just one of thousands.

7. " What makes this different?"

Meaningless question presented with no context to identify what the word "this" refers to.

8. "Perhaps it is the collective hatred that has gone on for thousands of years against the Jews, and this is the perfect opportunity to express it"

By beginning with the word 'perhaps' you indicate that this is an unsubstantiated opinion. Perhaps it is the collective hatred of a powerful state killing innocents in a bordering state. Perhaps ....

9. "Go ahead, defend hezbollah, defend Iran, defend the hate that is preached by Wahhabi preachers and schools that are training new generations of Muslims to hate Jews and hate America."

And why would anyone want to support hatred? I deny your insistence that we defend killers and instead condem you for spreading excuses for behavior by Israel that is simply inexcusable.

10. "What you are defending is those that wanted to KILL Salman Rushdie. Remember Iran put out a fatwa against him for writing a book"

No one here defends those who want to kill anyone. What most here want to do is defend the 100 or so civilians Israel will murder today and the 100 or so it will murder tomorrow and the thousands it will murder as the days go on.

[AnOhioan]

30. Thank you for a concise reply to the OP

I am too angry right now to reply directly to those defending the indefensible

[kdmorris]

25. Yes, I was against bombing Afghanistan

I mourn the lack of WORLD outcry in the horrors and genocide that happened in "Sudan, Rwanda, Serbia, the killing fields" (It was Rwanda, not Rawandi). I was against Bill Clinton bombing civilians in Serbia during the Kosovo "war". And yes, I was against the bombing of Afghanistan.

You start out asking a personal question and then go on to state facts about the world outcry. But I will answer this mostly for the original premise, which is how I personally feel about it.

Our "war technology" has advanced to the point that most of the dead in any conflict are civilians. We can take Sudan and Rwanda out of that statement just for a moment because there wasn't wholesale bombing of civilian populations to get to the "combatants". To me, any time a country resorts to bombing the crap out of another country (or part of another country) with little care for civilian life, they are WRONG. I DID NOT say they are targeting civilians, only that they have little care for them. And the civilians that suffer the most are ALWAYS those among us who are most vulnerable. Children, the poor, elderly. Those people who do not have the means or the know how to remove themselves from the field of battle. (Remember Hurricane Katrina? Same concept there.)

Israel is wrong, Hezbollah was wrong when they bombed Haifa (among other things they have done), we are wrong to bomb Iraq and Afghanistan and Kosovo. We were wrong to let Serbia get away with the slaughter of so many Muslims in Bosnia and Croatia, as well. Al Quada was wrong when it bombed us. I don't defend Hezbollah or Iran or any religious extremists when I state that "I believe that the killing of innocent civilians is WRONG". Israel is currently killing lice with a sledgehammer rather than trying to find a way to just kill the lice. To me, it's the same as setting your child on fire to get rid of her head lice. (As we are in Iraq. I'm not being Anti-Semite in this)

So, what I mourn most of all is the death of diplomacy, the loss of human life that didn't have to be. We (the United States) are said to be the most powerful country (and military) in the world. And we can't (or won't) do anything to bring about peace in the world. (And, YES, I KNOW it's complex. It's much more complex that a discussion on a political forum allows. Much more complex than you allow for in your original post. But we don't even TRY). Your mentality is that if we decry Israel's killing of civilians that we are "defending Hezbollah". Where was the media outrage at the "war" in Iraq? There was none! But MILLIONS (maybe BILLIONS) of people world wide protested that. There was plenty of outrage for that.

As far as Rwanda and Sudan went (since I left them out of the discussion earlier), what happens there is a collective world yawn. They don't have tanks and bombs, and they DO target civilians. It's GENOCIDE, pure and simple. And no one in the world cares about what happens in Africa, which makes me sick to my stomach. What that seems to indicate to me is a collective racism and world belief that the life of an African is less than that of any other race. And that fact is perhaps one of the saddest testaments to human life on this planet that I can think of right now.

[stray cat]

27. I was in favor of capturing Bin Laden even at the cost of some civilians

Bill Clinton was ethical and might have killed Bin Laden before 9-11 except there was risk to civilians. Its a hard call without wonderful simplistic answers.

[EFerrari]

28. It never made sense to me. Bombing Afghanistan to capture

bin Laden is like setting your house on fire to light your cigar.

Even if they wanted to catch him, which is a whole 'nother question.

They wanted their pipeline and they were going to get it. Catching bin Laden was mendacity from day 1.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. I opposed the invasion of Afghanistan.

Precisely for the same reason I oppose the invasion of Lebanon. The "necessary" killing of civilians. And, the killers in Rwanda, Serbia, Cambodia, My lai, used the justifications that are being used by the killers in Lebanon, both the IDF and Hezbullah.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[chimpymustgo]

31. Yes, Tierra. It's all about killing and destroying. For what?

There's a bloodlust at work that is disgusting and frightening.