It is NOT Anti-Semitic to criticize Israel's recent actions.

[Cascadian]

I am getting sick and tired of people accusing those who criticize Israel, especially with the actions they have taken this past week, as being anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic. Why do we have to tolerate Israel's wholesale slaughter of innocent men, women, and children of Lebanon. Lebanon, which just rebuilt their country after years of violence and now it's all being undone. All because of a few kidnapped Israeli soldiers?

I am not letting Hezbollah off the hook either. They are just as guilty as the Israeli Defense Force, but two wrongs don't make a right. However, if Israel wanted to stop Hezbollah, I would think with their intelligentsia from the Mossad and their technology they would be more covert in their actions. What is happening in Lebanon is total destruction and death. What gives Israel the right to do this? While Israel has the right to defend themselves, this is not the way to do this.

And you know that when somebody does not agree with what Israel does, then they are branded as bigots and as bad as Nazis. What a silly knee-jerk reaction! The majority of people who make these statements are only criticizing Israel's attacks are no different than what the Nazis did in the Spanish Civil War and World War II. Don't believe me? Ask the people in Guernica or Rotterdam what the Nazis and their warplanes did to their towns. The Israeli warplanes are doing the same stinking thing.

Once again, let me get this through to you all, I am not anti-Israeli nor anti-Semitic. I am for Israel's right to exist as much as I am for the Palestinians to have a homeland. It is not about all that. It is about right and wrong. I am afraid the State of Israel has got it wrong.





John

[BayCityProgressive]

1. I am pro-Israeli

and you are right it is not anti-semitic to criticize a certain action of Israel. My only thought is that it is not anti-arab to criticize Lebanon for not controlling their own borders. Israel cracked down on powerful militants during it's formation under the leadership of Ben-Gurion, Lebanon should be able to do the same. Secondly, I haven't seen any posts by pro-Israeli posters calling someone an anti-semite because they disagree with one Israeli policy. I think anti-semitism enters the scene when Israel is put down constantly for actions that are not as bad or similar to that of many many others nations in the world, yet some posters only focus on it when it is Israel and make excuses for everyone else. I strongly believe there is anti-semitism on the far left just as the far right. You however, are completely justified in criticizing any government.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. I would also say

"And you know that when somebody does not agree with what Israel does, then they are branded as bigots and as bad as Nazis. What a silly knee-jerk reaction! The majority of people who make these statements are only criticizing Israel's attacks are no different than what the Nazis did in the Spanish Civil War and World War II. Don't believe me? Ask the people in Guernica or Rotterdam what the Nazis and their warplanes did to their towns. The Israeli warplanes are doing the same stinking thing."

You are being very hypocritical here. You slam people for comparing Israeli opponents to Nazis, then turn right around and compare the Jewish state to Nazis. There is absolutely no similarity here and to compare a nation where many of it's citizens are survivors of Nazi death camps to their oppressors is flat out disgusting and wrong. You could have made your point without an untrue and inflammatory piece such as that.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BayCityProgressive]

11. Maybe you should read more history

if this was the Nazis, Lebanon wouldn't be there right now, and many would be in death camps. Give me a break. ISraelis have to live to a higher standard? That's interesting. Do you hold African Americans to a higher standard when it comes to supporting civil rights and equality because they were slaves? Do you hold Arab Americans to higher accountability because they had to deal with negative set backs from the Patriot Act? Do you hold gays accountable for taking their relationships and marriages more seriously because many of them are denied that right? I have never seen any posts from you on these topics..however apparently it is okay to hold Jews in Israel to a higher human rights standard than anyone else under your logic.

[Cascadian]

14. Then explain why Israel has bombed homes, businesses, and people?

This is not what a civilized country does! I don't care if it's Israel, America, Britain, or any Arab countries. I would be comdemning them in the same tones as in this post. In fact, I have! Keep in mind, I said Hezbollah is just as guilty. The thing that angers me is this defending of Israel for their actions. So it's okay for Israel to murder women and children but not Hezbollah?


John

[BayCityProgressive]

17. It isn't right for anyone to

murder anyone. Murder is a premeditated killing of an innocent person. Hezbollah mixes with the civilian population because it brings more support for their cause. Israel is in a lose lose situation because in order to target hezbollah they have to go into civilian areas. The only other option would be for Israel to engage in house to house raids on the ground and this would caus emassive casualties on both sides. I agree 100% that Beirut should not be bombed. The southern border should be cleared of Hezbollah, and the Lebanese and intl forces should patrol the border. That is Lebanons job! It's THEIR country.You would be hardpressed to find a war in history where civilians have not been killed. After we were attacked on 9/11 we went to Afghanistan to root out the Taliban and Al Qaeda. We failed at this and killed many civilians, yet that war is considered by most on this board ot be just. However, a teror group attacks Israel and they respond and it is unjust? I don't understand the logic. I am not saying I agree with everything they are doing, I am just saying keep things in context. One side wants the death of all Israelis and Jews or their deportation and if you doubt that I can get you plenty of info to back that up. Hamas and Hezbollah are not nice people. They are genocidal. Israel on the other hand does nto have the intention of killing every arab and driving them out of the middle east so I think a little context is needed here.

[MaraJade]

20. Hezbollah and Hamas have bombed innocent men women and

children in Israel for years and years, and there were no voices of condemnation here.

Go figure.

It's okay if Israel is bombed, but not okay if Israel bombs its enemies.

Sheesh!

[Cascadian]

24. I deplor the murder of innocents on all sides.

But look who has the bigger weapons? Israel! And they are bombing Beirut...NOT HEZBOLLAH! War and desturction is bad on all sides.


John

[magellan]

38. Discussion of Israel is not normally allowed at large on DU

It's typically kept to the I/P forum, and not many go there. So the double-standard you cite is a false perception.

[Bluebear]

2. Anymore than being anti-Iraq-war is "Anti-American"

Good point, cas.

[upi402]

3. Criticizing a government is NOT hating the people's religion/ethnicity.

[wagthedogwar]

9. anti-semite Sing along

Israel can do no wrong, do dah , do dah

Hezbollah just must be bombed, all the do dah day

Gonna bomb all night, gonna bomb all day

gonna bomb until they're gone or 'till election day


(Nov.mid term elections) that is.

[NoSheep]

10. Exactly! Most reasonable people understand this.

[upi402]

13. Imagine; "and no religion too"

Hell, we'd just have to slaughter each other over soccer.

[NoSheep]

16. I needed the comic relief there! I'll leave the soccer slaughter to the

Columbian fans ;-)

[Postman]

5. I'm not pro-Israel

I'm pro peace.

Hezbollah was wrong. Israel is way wrong.

Its past time to settle the Israel/Palestine issue.

[Cascadian]

8. Thank you!

I couldn't have said it better myself. All sides should just stop it! Nothing good is going to come from all of this war and death.


John

[MaraJade]

21. Hezbollah not WAY WRONG?

It is Hezbollah who financed the Suicide Bombings by Hamas.

But I guess it is okay for Israelis to be bombed in their shops and marketplaces
but not okay for the Palestinians and Hezbollah terrorists to be bombed in response?

Sheesh!

[Cascadian]

23. But Israel is killing Lebanese as well!

Mass carnage is wrong on all sides. No matter what nationality or religion a person is or people are.

John

[NoSheep]

7. I have spent the majority of my adult life in the company of Jewish men

and their families. None of these people I know would ever wholesale endorse what is going on right now. They are peaceful people who would seek peaceful solutions to the region's problems. Their grandparents escaped concentration camps. I assure you, they are NOT anti-Semitic. They are humanists who have the good fortune to be on the outside looking over at this conflict. Who knows how they would feel if they lived in Israel. But the fact that they've chosen not to gives me a clue.

I would love to know, of all those who say criticism of Israel's actions are anti-Semitic, how many have spent time in the company of Jewish people here is the US?

[BayCityProgressive]

12. I don't say criticizing

Israel is anti-semitic but I am Jewish and spend a lot of time with other Jews. I think bombing Beirut is counterproductive. Southern Lebanon should have been invaded and Hezbollah rooted out. Understand this-in war there has always been and always will be civilian casualties, this is why war is horrible. Hezbollah should be rooted fromt he south and an international peace keeping force along with Lebanon should take over the border.

[NoSheep]

19. I am at fault here for basically giving a general view regarding my

experience with my loved ones. My point is: Never have I perceived any of them taking a hypocritical stance where Israeli policy is concerned. The fact that they are of Jewish heritage is secondary to their opinions which always reflect humanism and common sense.
It is the name calling (Anti-Semitic) going on in light of any criticism of Israel that led to my response.

Personally, I cannot condone invasion or violence of any kind from either side. I do not necessarily expect others to agree. I would prefer experimental LSD therapy to bombs and guns and tanks and mortars and bleeding children and mass graves.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I agree. I support Israel's right to exist, and to defend itself.

I can't see what this has to do with either, at this point. As far as I can tell, it's inhumane, and counterproductive to boot.

[Cleita]

18. Some guy called Randi Rhodes up today and called

her anti-semitic too. It's like calling those who disagree with your country's invasion, killing and mayhem in another country as being unpatriotic. It's a very handy accusation, sort of like calling a mother a child-hater.

[6000eliot]

22. It's just like the rw in this country accusing us of treason

when we criticize the Bush administration. It's an accusation designed to squash dissent.

[oberliner]

25. Anti-Semitism and this post

You said:

"And you know that when somebody does not agree with what Israel does, then they are branded as bigots and as bad as Nazis."

Actually:

People who do not agree with what Israel does are not branded as being as bad as nazis.

However:

Israel itself is branded as being as bad as nazis, even in this very post.

You said:

"Ask the people in Guernica or Rotterdam what the Nazis and their warplanes did to their towns. The Israeli warplanes are doing the same stinking thing."

So I will agree with your message topic:

It is NOT Anti-Semitic to criticize Israel's recent actions.

And I will ask you this question:

Is it Anti-Semitic to compare Israel to the Nazis?

[Behind the Aegis]

26. It is NOT Islamaphobic to criticize Hizb'allah's recent actions.

Well, as sick as you are about these supposed charges of anti-Semitism, I am just as sick at the charges that "pro-Israeli" = "pro-War, pro-slaughter, anti-liberty" and that those of us who are "pro-Israelis" are really just "freepers, agents for (AIPAC, PNAC, KNICK-KNACK POTTYWACK), kool-aid drinkers, or moles/trolls!" Of course, I am also sick of people who are too blind to see that some anti-Israeli comments are based in anti-Semitic rhetoric!

You know what I hate, is when Israelis and their supporters are called Nazis, much like you implied in your post! So, "pro-Israelis" aren't the only ones around here with "jerky knee" syndrome! I have seen MORE people try to shut down conversation by attacking the poster, not the post. Or, the "oh boo-hoo, I'll be called an anti-Semite if I speak against Israel," then proceed with an anti-Israeli screed; therefore any pro-Israel that comes along and challenges them gets branded as a user of the anti-Semite charge.

It plays both ways!

[NNN0LHI]

27. I criticize Israel all the time and I don't feel like...

...anyone has been over the line with me? On the contrary. On the whole it has been pretty fair.

As for Hezbollah I don't think we have anyone here really cheering for them. The Lebanese people maybe, but not Hezbollah.

I mean tempers flare occasionally but damn thats to be expected I think.

We can't all agree with everyone on everything all the time. Its just not possible.

I just try not to take stuff so personally? People say stuff they don't mean and regret what they said later all the time.

At least I do.

Thanks for the post.

Don

[oberliner]

28. But don't you think...

that comparing Israel to Nazis is anti-semitic?

[NNN0LHI]

31. I think you need to know whats in the posters mind to make a call like that

Not what you think is in the posters mind. And that can't be done on the internet. You have to hear the tone of their voice. See their facial expressions. Watch their body language. You need it all. Just words on a screen are not enough.

Don

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Normally I would agree with what you said...

Words without context of facial expressions, body language, etc. can cause confusion (thus many of use the emoticons); however, sometimes 'words on a screen are enough.' I am not saying that about this particular OP, I have the "Jews should be dispersed from Israel" post in mind. I think those words pretty much tell me what I need to know without having to see facial expressions, etc.

[NNN0LHI]

36. I am not familiar with that post and I won't defend it

Though I will tell you that right after 9/11 around here it was a real horror show.

Posters who at one time I thought had good sense began posting all kinds of crazy shit that should be done to Muslims.

I couldn't believe my eyes.

But still to this day I don't know if it was fear, ignorance, sickness, or just downright meanness that drove them to post what they did.

Crazy world I guess.

Don

[Behind the Aegis]

37. just for S&G...

Here it is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1738732

The capacity for human nature to hate what it doesn't understand is frightening.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

35. Understood - I'm just saying that of all the comparisons to make

regarding Israel why choose "Nazi-like?"

Certainly you will agree that there have been (and continue to be) numerous regimes which have murdered innocent people with warplanes and bombs.

Why choose the one murderous regime that happened to also exterminate six million Jews?

Why that particularly choice? Is it because the Nazis are really the most apt comparison to be made here? Or is it because of the emotional impact a Jewish person would feel being compared to a Nazi?

I just wonder if this particular comparion isn't made deliberately to push the buttons of Jewish supporters of Israel.

[God Almighty]

29. A lot of Jews and Israelis agree with you.

Anyone who supports what Government of Israel is doing these days is sick. That's why thousands of Israelis are in the street protesting their government. They can't believe that their government has betrayed everything they thought it was supposed to stand for and is acting exactly like the Third Reich. When this whole thing is over, the leaders of Israel and all the military personnel who carried out their crimes against humanity should be tried and sentenced and put in cells with the remaining Nazis who are still being held. They belong together.

[Cascadian]

30. I have seen the protests in Israel and I am happy about that.

Whenever the right-wing government of Israel use aggression on innocent people and when innocent Israelis are murdered on buses, nightclubs, or restaurants, I often think about Yitzhak Rabin. How different would things have been had he not been assassinated? This man gave his life for peace and now look where Israel and the Middle East are? On the brink of World War III. I hate it and I cannot condone what all parties involved are doing. My anger in this post is actually aimed more at the majority of lawmakers in Congress (Even Democrats!) for siding so quickly with Israel. Now it puts us in an even more bad light in the Arab world. The rant is also aimed at those people who are so biased towards Israel and refuse to see the other side of the coin. Both sides are doing horrible things but it is wise that we not take anyone's side.








John

[Rex]

32. I've seen a huge amount of criticism against Israel, I've criticized

Israel right here on DU multiple times. I've also seen a huge amount of criticism of Lebanon/Hezbollah, Iran and Syria for egging them on. All in all it seems pretty balanced to me.

[The Magistrate]

39. Locking

Comparison to the Nazis is flame-bait.