Just got home safely from Israel this afternoon.

[Obamarama]

I was in Kiryat Shemona, Israel, about 15km from the border of Lebanon visiting relatives. Flew out of Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv about 5:30 this morning for Detroit via Amsterdam, and ultimately home to Kalamazoo, MI.

I was in Tel Aviv most of this week as it was no longer safe to stay in Kiryat Shemona. Tried to leave earlier, but my scheduled return was today and it would have cost nearly $750 to change my ticket and depart early.

After a shower and a bite to eat, I thought I'd cruise DU and see what people are saying/thinking about the situation. I am mostly disappointed by the comments and sentiments I have read thus far. There are some people on this board who need to wake up, dust off their history books and re-read them.

I am Jewish, have been to Israel many times, worked on a kibbutz for a summer, and have family living in Israel. I have, at times, been a harsh critic of Israel and some of her policies, but I will ALWAYS defend her right to defend herself when threatened.

I suspect there are relatively few home office chair cyber-observers who truly understand the gravity of what is occurring. Israel will not allow itself to be pushed into the sea, as Hezbollah and its supporters are fully intent on attempting. What's happening in Lebanon is very troubling, but they really need to divorce themselves from Hezbollah. If Hezbollah put down their weapons today, there would be peace. If Israel put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. Wake the fuck up, people.

American Golda Meir, former Israeli Prime Minister, and "Iron Lady" of Israel was right when she said: "There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours."

[LeftCoast]

1. I'm glad you're back safe

:hi:

[Lindacooks]

2. And there will be peace when Israelis love their children more

than they hate Arab children.

[BayCityProgressive]

6. Yeah right

that's why 20% of Israel is Arab, meanwhile almost every jew has either been murdered or forced out as refugees from the surrounding Middle Eastern nations. I too am Jewish and critical of Israel when they do wrong.

[Lindacooks]

11. Nice way of missing the point.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. I wasn't aware of this

I thought there was still a Jewish presence in Iran, for example. I'm interested in knowing which countries outsted their Jewish populations, and when it happened. If you have that information, I'd really appreciate getting it. Thanks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. I Think There Are About 60,000 Jews In Iran.

I do know after the Revolution Jews in that country were forced to wear the Yellow Star. I think things have improved though.

When Israel announced it's independence many Arab countries including Iraq, Morocco, and Yemen expelled most of their Jewish population with little more than the clothes on their back. There were approximately 850,000 expelled. Do the math... There are now approximately 3,000,000 or more Jews living in Israel who are those expelled or their progeny.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

36. Thank you for the timeline

I figured the expulsions came as a response to the creation of Israel or after one of the many wars since 1948. I didn't think explusions of this sort were common in the Ottoman Empire or Persia (political entities in the Middle East before the end of WWI).

It might interest you to know that Jews and Muslims in Russia are meeting to try and help find a solution to the Middle Eastern crisis.

[Ian David]

55. Jews have been getting expelled from Israel since long before Christ..

and from the rest of the world throughout all history.

Even in so-called "safe" places in what is now Russia, they would be allowed to live until someone declared a Pogrom to wipe-out entire Jewish villages at a time.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

72. Wouldn't you say the first place was maybe

Egypt? Or definately Babylon. Oh, I know about Russian pogroms. A high school friend's grandparents fled Russia because of them, as did the family of my husband's paternal grandmother.

[Ian David]

87. The Biblical Exodus from Egypt never happened. There was never a large...

Jewish population in Egypt around the time The Bible sets The Exodus.

I was disturbed to learn this fact only a a few months ago, and embarassed to say I was never skeptical enough to look that far into the story until then.

However, there was a large Exodus from Egypt circa WWII.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

93. Yes, I've read that as well

Although there is a hyroglyph where it says the Pharoah at the time destroyed a tribe called the "Heburah" or something like that. But so much of Jewish history is bound up with the tale of the Exodus-my heavens, Passover is based upon it!-that, true or not, the idea of the Egyptian exile and leaving is a part of the collective memory, even though now it appears it didn't happen, at least not with as many people.

[Stevepol]

120. I doubt this information indicates one way or the other.

If the Heborah tribe destroyed (supposedly) by the Egyptians was indeed the Hebrews of the time, then this would be entirely consistent to find that the Egyptians would claim to have destroyed them.

The many plagues recounted in the Bible could have been a literary effort to compensate for a long period of persecution and perhaps ethnic cleansing over a long period of time.

Also, the Biblical account suggests that the tribe that left and wandered about for those years was not large. How could it have been very large and survived for so long or stayed together over an extended period?

Even if the story is not entirely "true" in a historical sense, the basic events could easily have happened and the lack of a record of it in ancient Egypt would not be unexpected at all or if the Heborah story refers to the Hebrews it would not be unexpected that the Egyptians would report it that way.

My guess is that it's true but not in the extravagant and hyperbolic sense that the Bible reports it in. A lot of the events may have been conflated with other events and used for religious or symbolic reasons.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

130. Oh yes

of course NONE of the carvings in ancient Egypt tell of an Egyptian loss-they were there to glorify the Pharoh, after all. :) But some scholars have used the inscription to point out that there was an identifiable group with the name lo those many years ago. As for the plagues of Egypt; the red Nile, locusts, etc, are natural phenomenae that have appeared at different times in Egyptian history; whoever related the story of Exodus must have known about them; ie, must have been there or heard tell of them. "Moses" is in itself not a name of Hebrew but rather Egyptian origin. It would be interesting to take DNA samples of Jews today (as many other groups are doing) just to see where it says they came from. Who knows-we might also find the "lost tribes"!

[Raksha]

135. You are correct about the name Moses. It's Egyptian, not Hebrew.

Actually it's more of a title or part of a name, not a proper name. It means "son of..." or "born of..." and as part of an Egyptian name the name of one of their gods would have been attached, as in Rameses or Thutmose, i.e. "born of Ra" or "born of Thoth." This must have been true of Moses' original name as well (assuming Moses actually existed), but with the development of Judaism the Egyptian god-name would have been dropped as completely inappropriate.

[Raksha]

132. It was said to be a "mixed multitude," right?

Not necessarily all descendants of Abraham. Even some Egyptians in the group, or so I've heard.

[Raksha]

131. A bit of clarification is in order.

There was NO "Jewish population" in Egypt at the time because there was no such thing as Judaism...YET. That did not come into existence until the Covenant at Mt. Sinai, according to our tradition. At the time, no distinction was made between Israelites and other Asiatic nomad tribes. In fact, the word "Hebrew" is actually Egyptian in origin (Hapiru) and was NOT a compliment! It meant something like "desert rat."

As far as we can reconstruct the history, the Egyptians had some trouble with Hyksos (Asiatic) usurpers to the throne in the period immediately before the Exodus, and this accounts for the stories of enslavement and persecution. Whether these usurpers were Israelites or not is unknown, but it's clear that the Egyptians lumped them all together and engaged in collective punishment of all the tribes.

[robinlynne]

125. Jews in Russia?

alive?

[LostinVA]

80. Jews in Iran do not wear a yellow star n/t

[Ian David]

86. The yellow stars in Iran story was revealed as a hoax...

and the guy who perpetrated the hoax was then brought to The White House to meet with Der Chimpenfuhrer.

[helpman]

111. Iran?

There are 23 synagogues in Iran and the rights of Jews are protected, as are other minority religions under the Iranian constitution.

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

[robinlynne]

126. Their rights protected is not something I would believe. There are thous

sands of Iranian jews here in the U.S, terrified for people who couldn't get out....

[Ravenseye]

33. Iraq did

There used to be a massive Jewish community in Baghdad. I think at one point 1/3rd of Baghdad was Jewish. They were prominent and held key positions in government and business well into the 30s and 40s. There were occasional outbreaks of violence from nutters, muftis, and pro-nazi sympathizers but for the most part the Jewish community was a well respected and integral part of Baghdad. With the creation of Israel though, Iraq pretty much forced them to leave in the backlash of anger. They had days to gather their belongings and flee for their lives. It happened in many places and I knew some of the poeple who were involved in those decisions at the time.

It's pretty sad. There had been a sizeable jewish presence in Baghdad for thousands of years and now...it's all but disapeared.

[Ian David]

51. See this movie: The Silent Exodus

Silent Exodus was selected at the International Human Rights Film Festival of Paris (2004) and presented at the UN Geneva Human Rights Annual Convention (2004)

In 1948 nearly one million Jews lived in Arab lands. But In barely twenty years, they have become forgotten fugitives, expelled from their native lands, forgotten by history and where the victims themselves have hidden their fate under a cloak of silence.

A people whom legend have always associated with "wandering" many of these Jews from Arab lands had lived there for thousands of years and accepted their fate, through good times and bad times.

But 1948, the beginning of their exodus, also saw the birth of the State of Israel.

And, while the Arab armies were preparing to invade the young refugee-country, the survivors of the Shoah were piling up in rickety boats. Meanwhile a few hundred thousand Arabs from Palestine were getting ready to flee their homes, convinced that they would return as winners and conquerors.

Soon - by a terrible twist of fate they, as well, began to fill up refugee camps and passed on their refugee status to new generations.

The Jews, however, did not receive refugee status.

They had just rediscovered the land of their birthright.

And if they came from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq or from Yemen, if they had lost everything, even their relatives and their cemeteries, they were ready to rebuild their lives in the West and for many - in Israel - and try to forget their past.

Without ever asking for compensation or the right of return, or even wishing that their story be told...

More:
http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm

And surely you heard all the "light-hearted" jokes about the last two Jews in the entire country of Afghanistan who spent the last few decades not talking to one another?


Brotherly Enmity: No Love Lost Between Afghanistan's 'Last Two Jews'

By Paul Holmes (Copyright 2001 Reuters)

K A B U L, Afghanistan, Dec. 2 - Yitzhak Levy and Zebolan Simanto say they are the last two Jews in Afghanistan and they hate each other with a vengeance.

"Yitzhak and the Taliban, they're the same," said Simanto, 41, pressing the tips of two fingers together to make the point.Across the courtyard of a crumbling apartment building on Flower Street that used to be home to a community of some 30 Jewish families, Levy is just as bitter about his neighbor. The building has no glass in its windows, no running water and two synagogues, one that Simanto climbs into through a window frame and another that Levy keeps under lock and key.

"All my problems are because of Zebolan," said Levy, a squat man with a flowing white beard and battered sheepskin Astrakhan hat, who gave his age as 60. He recites a litany of woes capped by accusations that the only other Jew in Kabul had denounced him to the Taliban as a spy for Israel and landed him in jail five times." They threw me on the floor and one sat on my neck and two on my feet. The other two beat me with electrical cables. Now I can't walk properly," he said of one spell in jail.

The Last Ones

Levy and Simanto, it seems, are all that is left of a Jewish presence in Afghanistan that stretches back 800 years. All the other Jews left when communist-backed rule collapsed in 1992, many of them for Israel where Levy and Simanto both say their wives and children now live. Levy, a traditional healer born in the western city of Herat, remained in Kabul when the Taliban took over in 1996 and imposed their radical Islamic creed and intolerance of other religions on the city. Simanto, a dealer in carpets and handicrafts who is also from Herat, spent six years travelling in Israel, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. He returned to Kabul in 1998 and moved in." I came here for three months and it's been 3-1/2 years. I was in prison four times and all because of this man," said Simanto, who insists it was Levy who denounced him as a spy.

More:
http://www.isjm.org/news/article1.htm

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

74. I had not heard of the last two Afghan Jews

But I do think it interesting that many, many American Jews I know are in American Sufi orders, especially the Ruhaniat, which was founded by Murshid Samuel L. Lewis, who was born a Jew and studied Kabbalah, Zen, and Sufism. The Dances of Universal Peace were his inspiration. Murshid S.A.M. was a remarkable human being, who, back in the 40s, came up with a peace plan for the Middle East, part of which can be found in his epic poem, "The Jerusalem Trilogy".

[akushuki]

104. ditto

[helpman]

109. Nice idea.

Too bad that Israel legislated and approved an effective ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians earlier this year.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10321

I have a real problem with this.

In an earlier hearing, Justice Michael Cheshin suggested that mixed couples wanting to build a family "should live in Jenin", a Palestinian city in the West Bank besieged by Israeli military armour. Cheshin again demonstrated an other-worldly logic this week when he justified the majority view of his colleagues: "Beyond this stands the state's right not to allow residents of an enemy country to enter its territory during time of war." The problem is that the Palestinians are not another "country", enemy or otherwise; they are a people who have been living under Israeli military occupation for nearly four decades. As the occupying power, Israel is responsible for their welfare, though it has happily passed on that burden to international players with deeper pockets. And the suggestion that the Palestinians, who have no army, are waging a war against Israel, one of the world's strongest military powers, expands the idea of war into the realms of doublespeak. Palestinians are resisting Israel's occupation -- some violently, others non-violently -- as they have a right to do under international law.

[Recursion]

119. patriarchy and matriarchy come into play there too

For various social reasons, most of the mixed marriages are between Arab men and Jewish women, which essentially makes their children both Arabs and Jews, since Arab-ness is determined patrilinearly and Jewish-ness is determined matri-linearly.

I have a friend, though, who has a Jewish father and an Arab mother. He has a hell of a time getting papers from either side because he's neither Jewish nor Arab.

[ret5hd]

18. or when they love their children more than...

they covet palestinian water and arable land.

[Ian David]

53. That's why they keep giving the Palestinians more and more territory?

In case you didn't notice, the Palestinians covet ALL Israel's land and want to kill ALL of them.

[katinmn]

102. What do you think of the partition and growth in settlements?

These reports that settlements are expanding rapidly seem to go against the claim that Israel has returned land. Or is it propaganda?

IMO, it is a generalization to say that all Palestinians covet all the land. I think most realize that isn't even possible. Overall, I hope most people the world over want peace.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4367787.stm
The Israeli government has confirmed plans to increase the size of its largest settlement in the West Bank.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6224-2004Jul22.html
In all, the settler population in the Gaza Strip rose about 4.3 percent during the past six months, from 7,820 in December to 8,153 in June. In Sa-Nur, one of the four isolated West Bank settlements that Sharon has targeted for evacuation, the population almost doubled in that period, climbing from 38 residents to 69, according to Israel's Interior Ministry. Peace Now aerial photographs show that the settlement recently added four new trailers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3591042.stm
Last week, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon approved the construction of about 1,000 new homes in four settlements.

A US newspaper has reported that the Bush administration will not oppose the enlargement of major settlements, sparking outrage among Palestinians.

http://adamnieman.co.uk/wall/

[Mir]

103. Ahhhh, so it's the Palestinians

who are stealing Jewish land, tearing down homes and building red-roofed houses for natives of Brooklyn and Kiev? It all makes sense now. Any notion that the Palestinians (THE PEOPLE, NOT JUST HAMAS) want to kill all of the Jews and "drive them into the sea" is so fucking stupid that it deserves no more attention than the time it takes to quickly mock and condemn it. Being so done, a bullshit line in the charter of Hamas calling for "the destruction of Israel" is hardly a valid pretext to make such an outrageous statement, if for no other reason than the pure absurdity of it. A rag-tag group of pissed militiants is going to "destroy" an army stronger than any in NATO save the U.S. and the U.K.? "Kill all the Jews?" Ridiculous.

[Ian David]

106. My apologies. Let me clarify a little...

It is the official charter of the Palestinian Government that Israel needs to be wiped off the map, and that is also the goal of the government voted into power at the urging of our own Dominionist Bush Administration.

The rag-tag group doesn't need to destroy Israel single-handedly.

All they need to do is provoke Israel into a sufficiently disproportionate response to bring down the wrath of the rest of the world upon them.

And the Israeli government is stupid enough to fall into this trap once again, and are complicit in the demise of their own people.

There are no winners here, and there is no "right side" to be on in this conflict.

Both sides are wrong in what they are doing.

The majority of both the Palestinian and the Israeli people want to live in peace and get on with their lives.

[katinmn]

112. The majority ...want to live in peace and get on with their lives.

Right on.

[Lindacooks]

75. Yes, exactly.

[robinlynne]

128. It makes me sick when people say that. Israel is not after water and land.

[jonnyblitz]

28. that was a rather tacky comment by Golda Meir. nt

[pitohui]

47. well a little but...

how many arabs send their kids out to blow themselves up in airplanes or in pizza parlors or on buses?

how many jews have done the same?

[Scurrilous]

52. "how many arabs send their kids out to blow themselves up .."

There have been nine documented suicide attacks involving minors (ages 16-18) between October 2000 and March 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bomber

[SPKrazy]

142. Isn't That Nine Too Many? n/t

[Ian David]

49. Arabs live in peace among their Jewish neighbors.

That's a nice fucking welcome you're giving to someone who's just gotten home from mortal danger.

You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

[laura888]

3. There was no Hezbelloh until there was Israel...

why is that?

[Ian David]

56. There wasn't a KKK until after Lincoln freed the slaves, either.

Why is that?

[rockymountaindem]

77. Good comeback

Seriously

[deaniac21]

98. Game, set....MATCH

[Ian David]

108. It's not a game. It's not a contest. There shouldn't be any "teams" here

Especially not HERE on DU.

We should all be on the same side-- the side of ending the spiraling madness of destruction.

"Scoring points" against those we see as "the other side" accomplishes nothing.

B

[deaniac21]

115. .

[Ian David]

118. I almost didn't click on this, but I'm glad I did. Thanks! ROFL! n/t

[atomicdawg38]

101. Best

comeback ever. :))

[robinlynne]

129. Thank-you.

[laura888]

159. Actually, there was no Hezbelloh until Israel invaded Lebanon.

Are we equating the end of slavery with the invasion of Lebanon?

Please tell me no.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. Actually, there was no Hezbollah until Israel invaded Lebanon

to oust the Palestinians, which the Israelis did successfully. Hezbollah in Lebanon is mainly a homegrown fundamentalist group that formed as a reaction to Israeli policy in Lebanon. Now, they are surely funded by Syria and Iran, or at least have been thus funded historically. But the genesis of Hezbollah as an organization is - and I don't think anyone could dispute this - a result of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon (whether that invasion was itself necessary is another story, for another battle).

[Snivi Yllom]

113. Sore losers with a touch of insanity and blind religious hate?

Abused as children?

Seriously, Hezbollah came about when Israel occupied Lebanon. Israel was out of Lebanon. There was no reason for Hezbollah to start shit up, other than for the Iranian agenda to destroy Israel.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Glad u are okay

[Wonk]

5. How is bombing hundreds of Lebanese civilians by Israel defending itself?

This may be the best recruiting campaign for Hezbollah in years, thanks to Israel's latest offensive.

Wake the fuck up yourself.

[laura888]

8. Agreed n/t

[Ian David]

57. I agree. This is ultimately both wrong and self-desructive for Israel. n/t

[zanne]

97. Kidnapping two Israeli soldiers is NOT....

Pushing Israel into the sea. Right now, all of us are condemning the U.S. government for being too aggressive about Iraq. If we see the need to condemn our own government when we think it's doing something wrong and DISPROPORTIONATE, then we have every right to criticize the Israeli government when we think that it is doing something wrong and disproportionate. And don't try to give me that anti-Semitic line, either; plenty of Republicans call us "anti-American" because we don't support the war in Iraq. It's just disingenuous.

[Obamarama]

143. This isn't about kidnapped soldiers. I direct you to post #116 below.

[titoresque]

7. So how do you go about "divorcing" yourself from

being American?......at moments notice, perhaps a few day's notice. Will the bombs just know how sorry I am for the direction my so called leaders have taken this country in? Will they know I'm not a terrorist?

[madaboutharry]

9. Glad to see you home safely as well.

Thank you for posting.

[kenny blankenship]

10. "If Hezbollah put down their weapons today, there would be peace"

Perhaps...But not in Gaza. Israeli shells would still be landing there.
But of course that doesn't count because as Gold Meir said, "there is no such thing as a Palestinian people," and you can hardly commit aggression against an un-people can you?

[Ian David]

59. There is a Palestinian people now. Israel gave them their own country...

and every time Israel gave them more land, they used it to launch rocket attacks deeper into Israeli terrirory.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. I am glad you are safe

and that you had no trouble getting home. I'm sorry you are disappointed by the responses here, but I think you'll agree that the whole situation is a very complex one. The best bet, I think, of obtaining peace is for the international community to shore up the government of Lebanon, giving them a chance to provide safety and social services and jobs to the people within their borders. From what I have read and heard, the Lebanese government has been so weak (being overshadowed by Syria, which, I believe, only recently removed its military-I'm talking about the Syrian government, not paramilitary organizations)that they haven't been able to overcome Hezbollah. International support for the legitimate government of Lebanon might help it do this.

I don't see how continued fighting is going to solve anything.

[Tsiyu]

13. Click on this link- graphic

and explain to me how Israelis are working at 'winning the hearts and minds of Arabs.'

There is hatred on both sides enough to go around the globe.


http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/?gclid=CKfHwNS1oYYCFQI1UAodPQ2ejA

[Obamarama]

25. Your question is redundant....

It would be futile for Israel to try to "win the hearts and minds of Arabs." It would never happen. They are defending their right to exist, which Hesbollah would like to extinguish.

[Tsiyu]

37. Are you saying that ALL Arabs want Israel gone?

The governments, the dumbass leaders, the reactionaries, the warmongers of course want Israel gone. But does every last Arab want Israel to disappear?

It's my belief that most normal people - Arab or no - just want to get along and feed their kids and live in peace. All Arabs are not Hesbollah.


I certainly hope that the Iraqis know that I never wished them harm, and that i wish my country had never invaded theirs and killed their mamas and babies and grandpas and decimated their towns.

I certainly hope that Iraqis are not like you - painting all Americans as aggressors as you have painted ALL Arabs.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Welcome home and I'm glad you're safe. Get out your flame suit

and prepare yourself for the hatred coming your way...aimed at Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

153. The only hatred I saw was in the OP...

...from justifying the deaths of Lebanese civilians: 'What's happening in Lebanon is very troubling, but they really need to divorce themselves from Hezbollah.' to trotting out a quote from the bigoted Golda Meir which stereotypes Arab parents as somehow not being normal like the rest of us. Since when has being opposed to that sort of bigotry been *hatred*?

[Obamarama]

160. You really ought to understand what you're kvetching about...

before you open your misinformed mouth.

Of course not all Arabs are terrorists. Meir's quote is not "stereotyping." It is rather a statement of fact. How many Israelis do you know who have strapped explosives to themselves and blown themselves up in markets, on buses, and taken scores of Arabs with them? How many Israelis do you know who have sent their CHILDREN out to do the same?

A lot of innocent blood has been spilled on both sides, and the world is right to mourn. But Meir was correct. It was correct when she made the comment, and it is correct now. Hatred? No. Ugly? Yes, because it's true. But sometimes the truth is ugly.

[treestar]

17. It is not equivalent to say

that Israel has a right to defend itself, therefore it can do anything.

Any country has a right to defend itself. It may be criticized as to the way it goes about it, however.

I've seen that slogan before too about how there will be peace if whoever is opposing Israel lays down their arms. It is weird how people who support Israel use the same slogans.

The weird thing is that the supporters of Israel have turned me off of it more than anyone supposedly arguing against it. The way people argue for it damages their cause.

[existentialist]

19. Very few of us, if any here on DU, are asking Israel to put down its

guns.

Many of us do believe, however, that Israel's present usage of said guns and bombs is absolutely counterproductive, and causes Israel to be less, and not more secure.

And also that the present usage is an insane, inhuman, immoral abomination.

[Nikki Stone 1]

20. Glad you are home safe!

My friend's daughter was a student in Israel and just got home today. Her mother was on pins and needles, especially after Tel Aviv airport was bombed and she couldn't reach her daughter.

Glad you made it home.

[Obamarama]

29. She might have been on my flight....

There were at least 50 to 75 college students on my flight out of Tel Aviv to Amsterdam this morning.

[durrrty libby]

50. Thank goodness you made it home safely

This is another horribly sad disaster and I see nothing positive happening in
the near future.

As long as fear, hatred and greed continue, our global family will suffer, and none of us will truly prosper

[Nikki Stone 1]

70. Maybe so. She has a different last name from her mom, so I can't even ask

(I don't remember her dad's last name.)

But I am thankful that you all are home. Now if we can get all the Americans out of that area, and get some American diplomats busy over there.

What was the word on the street in Israel about all this?

[snappyturtle]

43. Who bombed the Tel Aviv airport?

I think that will be news to most of the world.

[Just Me]

21. You must be grateful not to have been in Lebanon.

You may very well be still stuck in the Israeli missile mission with no roads or air passage.

You must be grateful for that.

[Cleita]

22. I know Israel must defend itself, but it has to bring more to the

table than just guns. I think your RW politicians aren't doing you a service and are making things worse. Incidentally, we have terrorist groups here in the USA and if they ever start a war at our border like they are trying to, I hope by then we don't have Bush as President so we can work out a solution.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamarama]

35. I agree 100% with what you have posted, still_one.

:-)

[BillZBubb]

40. What UTTER BULLSHIT.

Please cite ONE post by a regular poster (not a troll) calling for Israel's destruction. Just one, or quit lying. You project anti-Semitism onto anyone pointing out your irrational support for Israel. You cannot defend Israel's actions, so you have succumbed to the easy out of accusing the critics of anti-Semitism.

Israel is using state terror. It is murdering hundreds of innocents. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, skin color, sexual orientation, etc. It is just another country trying to bully its neighbors and hold onto grabbed land.

Reconsider all you like, but don't let your religious allegiance blind you to the facts.

[still_one]

65. I am NOT lying. The mods deleted those comments

but they were there, and a response to a thread I participated it a couple of days ago.

Even today at this link it was thrown out by posters:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=136524&mesg_id=137409

So please, just because you haven't SEEN it doesn't mean it didn't occur

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MGD]

66. "Israel is using state terror."

Israel is responding to state terror with conventional military tactics.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

41. You've taught me something

namely that "Zionism" simply means the right for Jews to have a homeland. I have had the mistaken impression that the term was for a pre-Israel political party and its philosophy, which included violence.

I have tried to be very thoughtful and understanding of both sides in this situation, and I do sincerely wish to learn as much as I can about the situation and how both sides perceive it.

[still_one]

67. and that is the problem with the dialog that has been occurring lately

at DU. There is quite a lot of non-constructive dialog on all sides of the issue

[MGD]

62. Read a few of my posts still_one. It will make you feel loved again. nt

[still_one]

90. Thanks,

instead of having a reasonable dialog on the issues, we are tearing each other apart

I am sure the freepers are enjoying what is going on here

[SoCalDem]

78. This is precisely why Bush remains silent and why Condi "may"

intervene.. It's yet another issue to divide people...and it always works.... There is NO FAIR solution to this problem..never was...never will be..

It's just something that has to be endured by ALL parties..

I just find myself wishing that anti-semitism had not been rampant in the US back when we should have allwed the St.Louis to dock, and when we SHOULD have invited all european/displaced jewish people to come to America.. How different things could have been..

[LostinVA]

81. Oh come on

There has been almost NO Israel "bashing," just criticism of the actions of a sovereign nation against that of another sovereign nation..

WHO THE FUCK HAS CALLED FOR ISRAEL'S DESTRUCTION? Man, talk about flamebait.

Oh, so now you want to be a Republican, because they don't bash Israel? OMG. Your whole post is totally and completely over the line, and against DU rules.

Consider yourself alerted and on ignore.

[SeattleGirl]

24. I'm glad you're back, and safe.

:hi:

[Lars39]

26. So in order to not be 'pushed into the sea'

Israel is going on the offensive.
How many square miles of utter devastation is it going to take before Israel is happy?

[snappyturtle]

45. Thank you. nt

[laura888]

54. Exactly! n/t

[Obamarama]

68. Better you ask Hezbollah the same question....

[LostinVA]

83. Our criticism has to do with attacks on innocent Lebanese, not

Hezbollah! Why can't you understand that?

[Obamarama]

158. And what of Hezbollah's attacks on innocent Israelis?

[Kajsa]

27. Welcome back,KzooDem.

I'm glad you made it home, safely. :hi:

I read your comments, know you were there and I'm
definitely giving a lot of thought to what you wrote.

I've also spoken with relatives of people fleeing
Beirut( or trying to get out).

I may be an armchair observer, but I've been around
for 55 years and have seen this crisis surface time and
again. This time, it looks worse than ever.

[karlrschneider]

31. Very glad you got home safe but please understand that not everyone

who critisizes the Israeli GOVERNMENT is in any anti-Semitic, just as most people who despise our own
(mal)administration aren't anti-American. It does seem to me their response may well be excessive and possibly counter-productive.

One thing I can't get is why they found it necessary to wreck the Beirut airport...
???

I have no dog in this fight, just trying to analyze it dispassionately and I'm willing to listen to viewpoints from either side...I don't know how to approach it any more fairly.
KS

[northernsoul]

32. Glad you're back safe

My only rooting interest is for the human beings... and things ain't going too well for my team anywhere right now. Sholom.

[greatauntoftriplets]

34. Let's hope that this poster's family gets out of Lebanon....

as safely as you left Israel. Sadly, they cannot just go get on a plane.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5373291

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BayCityProgressive]

46. I would also like to

clarify my position on Israel. Israel does not owe Palestine or any of the other Arab nations land. Those nations tried waging wars on Israel to wipe out the Jews and they lost. The Arab states did not want to recognize UN treaties that created a Jewish and Palestinian state. Funny how some "liberals' here like to cherry pick what civilians and nations they support. Israel has given land back for peace. When they reached a ceasefire with Palestine they began giving land back. They gave the Sinai back to Egypt in return for a peace deal. Lebanon does need to take responsibility for the terrorism within it's borders. I am also critical of Israel. Israel and Palestine should invite international troops to patrol the borders and share Jerusalem under the UN. Unfortunately, this will never happen because of the bitterness on both sides. I also support Israel in attacking Hezbollah in Lebanon. No one else is taking any leadership in getting rid of this terrorist organization so it is left up to Israel. Unfortunately, by bombing Beirut, I think Hezbollah will only recruit more terrorists and it will hamper the power of the Lebanese gov. (although they were so weak and ineffective before that it will prob make little difference). There are many people in Beirut that do not deserve these bombings. Israel does not deserve for Iran and Syria to arm Lebanon through a complicit government in Lebanon in order to kill innocent Jewish civilians either. The whole situation is sad. I also find it interesting that the anti-Israel dominated UN considers all arabs who left Israel during the 1948 war (even those who lived there less than a year) as refugees, yet they do not consider the 1 million jews forced out of the neighboring Arab nations refugees. Just more double standards.

[Pavulon]

39. Bottom Line, Pick sides and go

People are having a hard time with this.

This is a war. Choose a side and back it. Don't moralize, justify, or complain.

Figure out who is the enemy and who is the right party. Your call.

IMHO
This is about hamas getting a fuck you from the world in the form of the no money. A fat distraction for Iran and their nuke program europe is about to stick them on.

Look at a map, look at the ME, look for israel (jews), look at the rest (muslim), read the hamas charter. Very simple.

Very straight forward.

[NJ Democrats]

42. Thank you for writing this

And I fully agree with you. I feel the same way about Duers right now, and everyone is ignoring the fact that the Arabs have always attacked Israel. When Duers speak about ME 'History' they unfortunately only go back a few moths. How about go back decades?
Btw, my neighbor got back for Israel today, he was in Haifa.

[pitohui]

44. glad you are back home safely

to you i would point out that sometimes the noisiest voices are not the voice of the majority, i would be surprised if the average DUer objects to israel having a strong defense, esp. considering that they were, after all, attacked

to those who object to the aggressiveness of israel's response, i again ask, what better suggestion do you have? i don't see how they can just sit around and twiddle their thumbs when they are being attacked by an enemy population of overwhelming numbers with a clear and admitted objective that they want israel destroyed

i see no option but for israel to mount a very strong campaign aga. this kind of thing, how much are they supposed to put up with?

i'll say the same thing i said abt afghanistan and mullah omar in 2001, if you don't want your country invaded, don't take $$$ to harbor terrorists if you don't want war on your own soil

[Ian David]

48. I'm glad to see you made it back. I hope everyone makes it through safely.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamarama]

61. Thanks, Ian, but I'm not looking for a "welcoming reception"

I just want people to UNDERSTAND the situation. I suspect a lot of people are making snap judgements without really understanding the long, complicated history that comes part and parcel with this conflict.

[Ian David]

64. Our president says all we need is a nice backrub and to "cut the shit"

Just get on the blower, make a phonecall and say, "Hey, cut that rocket shit."

Complicated?

Freedom is on the march!

[Truthiness Inspector]

60. Glad you've made it back safely

And I totally agree with your post. K & R.

Since you've been gone, I'm not sure if you heard that Russ Feingold, Diane Feinstein, Wesley Clark, and Hillary Clinton all have come out supporting Israel's right to defend herself. There are surely others as well that I'm forgetting right now, but at least that is some good news for you upon your return in the midst of all of this.

[bigwillq]

63. Welcome home!

Glad you returned safely. :hi:

[MissB]

69. Welcome back.

Glad you returned safely.

[sabra]

71. shalom chaver!

[oskifan2]

73. Keep engaging people in healthy discussion

It's important that people understand and care about what's
going on outsid of our borders.  Please keep engaging in
civilized discussion with others.  We have frightfully little
information about what's going on in the rest of the world and
what our corporate media gives us doesn't help to enlighten
us.  Can you recommend some good news sources that are
thorogh, fair and not hype-driven?

Thanks.

Kim

[Kolesar]

76. Welcome back, but your 5th paragraph was a bit strong

Maybe you could write a concise & comprehensive summary of what is going on in Lebanon, Israel and the Gaza strip. You should not assume that all of us have the time and background to know what is going on. Some of us have to work and attend to family and other obligations and are short on time.

[Libby2]

79. Welcome home!

I'm glad you made it.

[liberalpragmatist]

84. Welcome home!

Glad you're safe.

I'll grant that I don't entirely agree with some of your points, which I would love to discuss with you sometime. Would you mind if I PM you?

In the meantime though, I'm glad you're safe and I hope all your friends and loved ones in Israel are safe. I have several friends who recently returned from Israel as well, so I can understand your feelings right now.

And please don't let this turn you off DU - you're right, there are some disgusting threads from both sides, but please realize that most of us here DO support Israel's right to exist and DO support Israel's right to defend itself but are concerned about the character of Israel's response. This is an emotional issue for people and people feel quite strongly and passionately about this, so there are going to be fights. Just don't get too bruised!

Glad you're safe though!

:hi:

[Gregorian]

85. It sounds like you echo Bush's statement at the G-8

I appreciate your comments, and am very glad you are safe.

I know very little about the situation, but I recognize that what you said about Hezbollah is just what Bush said in his "shit" statement. When Hezbollah stops, it's over.

Maybe it's not the same, and maybe it's not the full story.

[thinkingwoman]

88. Welcome back to American soil

Hope your family and friends in Israel remain safe.

As I'm sure you found on your cruise through DU, some of us have been trying to fight back against the anti-Israel idiocy being posted here. I personally have been repeatedly flamed and told I don't understand history and others have taken far more heat than I. But we have steadfastly defended Israel, patiently explained what you just said so beautifully, and urged the anti-Israel posters to, as you put it, wake the fuck up.

Maybe your words will help. I hope so anyway.

Again, welcome back.

[Clarkie1]

91. I'm glad you are safe and all your loved ones are safe.

Thank you for speaking the truth, many here do not know it.

[Dinger]

92. Wow, That's A Great Quote To Live By:

"There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours."


Not just Arabs, but everyone.

[rman]

96. Except that it suggests all Arabs are terrorists or terrorist supporters.

[Obamarama]

141. Acutally, no it does not....

You need to understand the quote in its proper historical context. It in no way implies that "all Arabs are terrorists." I certainly don't beleive that, and neither did Golda Meir. However, the Arabs that would like to anihilate Israel and kill all the Jews....yup, they're terrorists.

[jonnyblitz]

100. it's actually quite obnoxious in what it implies. If I were an arab

I would be seriously offended.

[katinmn]

105. I'm not an Arab, but I'm offended just the same by such comments..

[Obamarama]

140. Actually, from reading your posts....

one would suspect just about anything is apt to seriously offend you.

[Violet_Crumble]

154. Maybe you should think about why other people find that quote offensive.

..and show a little bit more sensitivity?

[Obamarama]

157. I had Katyusha rockets flying at me a week ago.....

My relatives have had Katyusha rockets flying at them for months, years. Why don't you go spend some time in northern Israel and tell me that quote is offensive. It's easy for you to sit back and wag your sanctamonius finger, but until you have been there, until you have been through it, until your relatives have lived through a generation of terrorist attacks, and until you understand the history of what's transpiring...you know what you can do with your sanctamoniusly wagging finger. I stand by Golda's quote, and you might too if you knew what the hell you're talking about.

[wellst0nev0ter]

114. And Golda Meir Says There Is No Such Things As Palestinians

and she's a national hero. Weird.

[minkyboodle]

136. thank you

you beat me to it

[Meshuga]

156. Golda Meir and the name Palestine

Golda Meir said: "The British chose to call the land they mandated Palestine, and the Arabs picked it up as their nation's supposed ancient name, though they couldn't even pronounce it correctly and turned it into Falastin a fictional entity."

The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Roman "Palaestina".

The anglicized name "Palestine" comes from "Palaestina" which is a Roman version of the Greek "Philistine". The Philistines were a big foe of the Jews in ancient times. The Romans renamed the province of Judea to "Provincia Syria Palaestina" to alienate the Jews after the Romans kicked the Jews out of Judea because of the second Great Jewish Revolt (2nd century CE).

The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.

The Christian Crusaders employed the word Palestine to refer to the general region. After the fall of the crusader kingdom, Palestine was no longer an official designation.

The name Palestine was revived after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I and applied to the territory in this region that was placed under the British Mandate for Palestine.

[mhatrw]

94. Right or Wrong, Israel is Still My Client State.

[rman]

95. Very few say Israel has no right to defend itself.

Many (probably a majority on DU and certainly in the rest of the world) do say Israel does not have the right to use military force indiscriminately to target anything that *might* help terrorists and thus kill more civilians than terrorists in the process.

[noonwitch]

99. I'm glad you made it back safely-I hope Hezbollah gives up soon

I support Israel defending themselves from terrorists. I agree with you that not everything they do is always justified, but this is. If they can cut Hezbollah off from their suppliers, then they have accomplished something good. If Hezbollah is disarmed, it's better for both the Lebanese and the Israelis.

I just feel badly for the civilians on both sides caught in the middle. Particularly the lebanese, who don't have bomb shelters or food stored up for emergencies like this.

[akushuki]

107. Welcome Back!

Glad you got back safely and I agree with you 100%!

[Snivi Yllom]

110. best thread in a long time

"If Hezbollah put down their weapons today, there would be peace. If Israel put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. Wake the fuck up, people."

Exactly right. Well, at least the peace between Lebanon and Israel would return.

[frogmarch]

116. In the last 5 months,

more than 800 rockets have been fired into Israel. The SW town of Sderot alone was struck hundreds of times. What is Israel supposed to do? Sit back and let Hezbollah and Hamas totally destroy it?

Hamas and Hezbollah have publicly announced they want Israelis not complacent - but DEAD. Negotiation doesn't work with terrorists. Israel is doing what it must do to survive.

This Democrat stands with Israel.

[Sammy Pepys]

117. Glad to hear you made it back safe....n/t

....

[Meshuga]

121. Thanks for the post! Welcome back!

"If Hezbollah put down their weapons today, there would be peace. If Israel put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel."

Nicely put!

[knitter4democracy]

122. I'm so glad you're home safe and sound.

Isn't the K'Zoo airport nice? I just flew through there last week. I still can't believe how nice the new Detroit Metro is--I remember the old pit rather fondly, actually.

How scary to have to wait when you wanted to come home sooner. That must've been really stressful.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackDragna]

124. Maybe Hezbollah and others wouldn't be so intent..

..on pushing Israel off the map if Israel weren't one of the world's most consistent abusers of civil rights. I am "woke up" and I don't look at the world through rose-colored glasses. Hezbollah and the like may be full of lunatics, but the best way of making more lunatics is to pursue policies that turn ordinary people into freedom fighters because you treat them poorly.

[Hekate]

127. So glad you're back safe. I've been avoiding these painful flamefests...

My husband has family in Israel. I know there are Israelis who work for peace and justice with the Palestinians, and there are American Jews who also do.

But the peace process is derailed again and again by fanatics, which has bred fanaticism in return. The rhetoric from the Arab side has always been about driving the Jews into the sea and wiping the State of Israel off the map. There are moderate Arabs, but too few of them in power.

Israel has a right to exist. The Palestinians have a right to exist. But Golda Meir had it absolutely right when she said, "There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours."

The only "winners" in the entire ME region today are the Masters of War that Bob Dylan wrote about.

Hekate

[yebrent]

133. Hezbollah and Lebanon are not one in the same!

I constantly hear of Israel's right to defend themselves. NO ONE IS ARGUING THIS POINT. What most people are arguing is how ineffective it is to bomb people and infrastructure that are not Hezbollah. Israel is helping recruit more Hezbollah than they can possibly kill. The bombing isn't even succeeding as Israel hoped. LINK

Below is probably the most constructive criticism against Israel's tactics that I've read yet.

Middle East Journal

Here are some experts:

"Obviously Hezbollah started this and Hezbollah is the main problem. Not only did they drag my second home into a war, the bastards also threatened me personally. So I hardly see the point in telling you what I think about them right about now. I'll get to them later. I sympathize one hundred percent with what Israel is trying to do here. But they aren't going about it the right way, and they're punishing far too many of the wrong people. Lord knows I could be wrong, and the situation is rapidly changing, but at this particular moment it looks bad for Israel, bad for Lebanon, bad for the United States, good for Syria, and good for Iran."

"There is no alternate universe where the Lebanese government could have disarmed an Iranian-trained terrorist/guerilla militia that even the Israelis could not defeat in years of grinding war. There is no alternate universe where it was in Lebanon's interest to restart the civil war on Israel's behalf, to burn down their country all over again right at the moment where they finally had hope after 30 years of convulsive conflict and Baath Party overlordship."

"What should the Israelis have done instead? They should have treated Hezbollahland as a country, which it basically is, and attacked it. They should have treated Lebanon as a separate country, which it basically is, and left it alone. Mainstream Lebanese have no problem when Israel hammers Hezbollah in its little enclave. Somebody has to do it, and it cannot be them. If you want to embolden Lebanese to work with Israelis against Hezbollah, or at least move in to Hezbollah's bombed out positions, don't attack all of Lebanon. "

"Israel should not have bombed Central Beirut, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed my old neighborhood, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed the Maronite city of Jounieh, which was not merely anti-Hezbollah but also somewhat pro-Israel. Israelis thinks everyone hates them. It isn't true, especially not in Lebanon. But they will make it so if they do not pay more attention to the internal characteristics of neighboring countries. "The Arabs" do not exist as a bloc except in the feverish dreams of the Nasserists and the Baath."

[tinfoilinfor2005]

134. Jewish? From Kalamazoo?

I was raised in Kalamazoo. Going to school from first grade through high school, there was only one Jewish family in our school. Brother and sister. The Dutchmen pretty much owned that town. I moved shortly after, so I suppose people of other nationalities, religions, etc. have moved to the area. But there for years, the thickest part of the phone book was the V section: Voorhees, Vandervliet, Vanderhooven, etc. :hi:

[knitter4democracy]

145. There's always been a Jewish community there.

I read about it in the paper, actually, when we lived there. The schul there is older than most churches, one of the oldest faith communities in town.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

149. Well of course you're right,

but as a kid in a town of probably seventy five percent Dutch heritage, I only saw the obvious. There were so many blue eyed tow-headed kids in the town that they looked like a blonde version of the Farkel family. :spray:

[knitter4democracy]

150. Not anymore.

:) You're right that whites still are the majority, but there are many different minorities now. It's a great town. :D

[Generarth]

137. Kiryat Shmona

Have you followed the story about the girls writing on the bombs?

http://ontheface.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/7/20/2142505.html

Any insights?

[no_to_war_economy]

138. bullshit- this is and always have been about

illegal brutal immoral occupation

how the fuck is anyone going to push a billion dollar nuclear army into the sea... poor poor always attacked Israel

[Obamarama]

139. See post 116 above.....

[iconoclastic cat]

144. They need to divorce themselves from Hezbollah...

so the answer to this problem is persuade them to do so by using violent retribution. I see.

[Obamarama]

146. If Lebanon will not get rid of Hezbollah, then Israel will.

"Persuasion" failed long ago. It is now time for action.

[iconoclastic cat]

148. Do you find the civilian casualties an acceptable byproduct of "action"?

This reminds me of the old becoming-the-monster-you-are-hunting cliche.

[Obamarama]

151. Lebanon has allowed Hezbollah to set up shop in residential areas...

It's very unfortunate and sad that civilians - many of them innocent children - are caught in the crossfire. I pray for them on a daily basis. But Israel WILL send Hezbollah packing, and quite frankly the Lebanese government knows this. They should have never allowed the group to prosper in their country.

[iconoclastic cat]

147. oops delete

[Rhiannon12866]

152. Wow. I'm so glad that you made it home safely.

It must have been pretty harrowing. Welcome back...:-)

[B Calm]

155. Does the Jewish faith believe in Armageddon?