The thread for Pro-Israel Democrats who had enough!

[Superman Returns]

I'm not a fan of hoaring posts. However, I wanted to make this clar. The following was a response too one thread and I thought maybe it needed its own. Basically, I think we need a thread for the supporters of Israel to vent their destruction and to make sure our opinions are heard. We are Democrats too, and we should have a voice! If you want to attack us, you now know the thread where you can find us!

__________


Basically a thread called for the destruction of Israel while justifying the actions of a terrorist group. Not only must Israel be redrawn to the pre-67 borders but to the pre- 47 borders. Basically this poster wants Israel off the map and to never have existed!

I have never been more outraged than the posts on DU for the past couple of days. I'm a progressive, I'm a Democrat. But the outpouring of sympathies for a groups that stand for an agenda of everything liberals should be against has astounded me. Lets see you try to be liberal in Hezbollah's dream world. You want gay rights? Try getting woman rights, or even human rights under these religious fanatics. I hate religious fanatics at home and abroad.

Now, innocent civilians are being killed. Its tragic, terrible, and depressing. Yet I can take a picture of an innocent dead civilian from Dresden, from Hiroshima, etc...and post it Sadly we wars cannot be waged without innocent blood. War is the basic failure of civilization. But as a sovereign nation, with rockets capable of striking the heart of the country, what choice does Israel have but to push these Hezbollah back? Does it not have an obligation to its citizens?

Finally, let me say that if Iran, Syria, or Hezbollah had the weapons Israel does, there would be a holocaust. Some might say that as a democratic nation, Israel should have higher standards than them. Yet what does that prove? That there is no morally equivalence between Israel and Hezbollah. These people want Israel gone, off the map, like apparently this poster does. There is no reasoning with Iran's leadership and his nexus of terror allies.

I am sick of this garbage. I supported this website. I supported Democrats. Teddy Roosevelt and FDR are the icons I admire. I want a government that fights for the common good, that stands against corruption and corporate power. I want a government that supports a womans right to choice, takes a stand for the environment, acknowledges global warming, and embraces science. But if this is what lurks in the heart party than everyone can go to hell. You are making Democrats look like collectively like fools who shouldn't run an aquarium let alone a country.

[LiberalVoice]

1. Just to clarify.

I am anti-Israeli occupation. Not anti-Israel. I believe Israel has a right to exist, but its tactics are the same as that of the terrorists. Only they have much more advanced weapons. I think most people at DU are not anti-The existence of Israel, just anti-Israeli occupation/tactics.

As a "government" they have a responsibility to act with higher ethical standards then that of the terrorists. But seeing as how both the Israeli government and those organizations that attack Israel are run by fundamentalist hardliners and religious fanatics the war rages on.

[Zhade]

3. True, but Israel-firsters won't accept that.

NT!

[LiberalVoice]

7. What is an Israeli-firster?

[Zhade]

77. Anyone who values Israel over another country, regardless of situation.

For example, supporting the Israeli government's actions against innocent Lebanese, thus valuing Israel over innocent lives.

[SammyBlue]

128. You're so full of shit you need a laxative dinner, pal

Israel is targetting Hezbollah. . .bombs are not selective. What about when Hezbollah and Hamas blow up Jewish children and innocents? I don't see your stupid ass condemning that. Usually, I hear people say how Israel is to blame.

You "hate Israel" people have no fucking logic and it makes me sick. And I am a Progressive Democrat bluer than most people alive.

[Ian David]

32. That's full of shit. I'm an "Israel ALSO," not "Isreael Firster"

And I am fed-up of the fucking shit I see here.

[Zhade]

72. Then my comment, definitionally, wasn't directed at you.

NT!

[H2O Man]

117. The "hot seat," defined. n/t

[zanne]

36. Look--it's simple.

We don't support our own government when it acts like any aggressor. Why should we support Israel when it acts like an aggressor? I think that calling people anti-semetic or anti-Israel is a cheap tactic that some people share with Republicans who use the anti-American slur on people who are against the war in Iraq. Done.

[Zhade]

74. We completely agree.

I support Israel's right to exist, despite the wrong way in which it was created - I don't believe it's right to blame or attack Israelis who had nothing to do with taking away Palestinian land - but the extent to which some ignore Israel's ongoing war crimes in Lebanon, and excuse them as somehow acceptable, is sickening.

[cantstandbush]

133. I think the words "...vent their destruction." says it all. nt

[Superman Returns]

8. ...

Does anyone think Israel intends to kill as much innocent civilians as possible? No, in fact when it does, its actions are undermined and brought under international scrutiny. Israel is trying to root out people who want to WIPE IT OFF THE MAP. And they aren't hiding in the terrorist quarter of Beruit. They are among the people. Its terrible, its a tragedy. but what choice does it have?

[LiberalVoice]

19. Please lets not pretend like Israel hasn't targetted civilians.

The idea that they havent is absurd. How many times have rockets been fired killing entire families with no offiliation to Hammas or Hezbollah? For years they have operated in an eye for an eye fashion. Always retaliating to extremes. Oppressing innocent palestinians.

[eridani]

130. You're wrong about eye for an eye

It's been more like 20 Palestinian eyes for 1 Israeli eye.

[High Plains]

69. No, I think it just doesn't give a shit about civilian casualties.

[AntiFascist]

108. Herein lies part of the problem....

if you read the writings of some of the neocons, even those who have high-level positions within the current US government, some of them argue that most of the Islamic world is the problem, not just the extremists or terrorists. They argue that ultimately there is financial support coming from every corner of the Islamic world and that there is this hidden agenda, or not so hidden as in the case of Iran, against Israel and against Israel's supporters which include the US. This is one of the neocons' main reasons for promoting the PNAC plan which is to ultimately transform the Islamic world so that it resembles American values and interests. Accepting this as the truth, one can see why so many Americans fall for this simplistic explanation and have come to view the Islamic world as ultimately evil and in need of our good (Christian) intervention. Few can imagine how horribly oppressive this may seem to the typical Muslim who is caught in the crossfire. Certainly, there must be a sizeable population within the Islamic world who do not want to have anything to do with aggression one way or another, but do hardline neocons want to acknowledge this? Not within the Bush administration, and it doesn't help matters that there are so many Democratic progressives who also support aggression.

[Ian David]

34. There is no moral equivalence between someone dedicated to wiping-out...

a whole people and deliberately targeting civilians to do it, and someone who has ceded territory, at great risk, in the interests of peace, who then has to defend themselves against armed thugs.

I usually have a great deal of respect for what you say, but this time you are way off the mark.

[LiberalVoice]

40. So when Israel kills civilians its defending itself?

Come on now. Read your own post. Your rationalizing Israels killing of civilians. My stance is both sides are the equivalent of terrorist organizations. One just happens to kill alot more civilians. Both sides are wrong.

[Ian David]

44. Both sides are wrong. Only one side is evil. n/t

[LiberalVoice]

46. Please dont bring evil into this.

The notion that one side is supremely "wrong" while the other is just mistaken is ridiculous.

[chimpymustgo]

68. And, quite frankly, racist. eom

nt

[stepnw1f]

126. absolutely

[eridani]

132. That "dedication" is no more meaningful--

--than a two year old stating that he hates mommy and daddy and wishes they were dead. They don't have the power to do any such thing, and it's silly to point out that there would be a lot more orphans around if little kids actually did have that kind of power. Terrorism is a two year old's tactic as well. Kids don't have the power to make mommy and daddy take them to Disneyland on vacation instead of Auntie Em's place in Kansas. They don't have the money, the driver's licenses or even the physical strength to get their way. The one power they do have is to make the unfavored trip option as miserable as possible. Similarly, neither the Palestinians nor any Arab government can make Israel quit fencing off land, destroying homes and crops, and stealing water. The only power they have is to diminish the conqueror's pleasure in their conquests.

[jonnyblitz]

54. self -delete , meant to respond to OP

[Ron Green]

2. hmmm......

:popcorn:

[Mojambo]

4. I've eaten so much popcorn in the last week... n/t

[Scurrilous]

5. I've had enough...

...of innocent civilians dying.

[etherealtruth]

22. Too many dead innocents on all sides

[wellst0nev0ter]

85. They're Not "Civilians" They Are "Shields"

for the terrorists. Try to keep your frames straight ;)

[Howardx]

6. Basically a thread called for the destruction of Israel

what thread? let me guess, its been locked.:eyes:

[Mojambo]

13. I'm wonder about this thread as well

I know there was one earlier where someone posted a bunch of Aryan hate stuff as an example of why Jews were so hypersensitive to criticism of Israel's policy.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. It wasn't a thread, it was a post. n/t

[catmother]

9. i know what you're talking about. i've been flamed and criticized

for my pro-israel and anti hizbollah comments. i was going to stay away from these threads, but i want you to know that you are not alone. i don't know if people are anti-israel because bush supports them. the united states has always supported israel and i believe we were the first to recognize them as a state.
:dilemma:

on edit: i am sorry for the loss of innocent lives on both sides and hope this conflict will end soon.

[atreides1]

51. Yes they were

On May 14, 1948, the United States, under President Truman, became the first country to extend de facto recognition to the State of Israel.

[warrens]

10. You're excusing dead from a war of choice

Just like Iraq civilians. This ain't Hiroshima, this was a couple of soldiers taken prisoner, an attack by Israel, and then pointless violence from both sides.

If taking two soldiers prisoner is suddenly an excuse to level a city, what have we become?

[adriennui]

11. i'm pro-israel

and believe israel is waging more of a defensive war, in the hopes of sparing more civilians. i'm sick of the irael haters on DU....they even question whether terrorist groups are capable of atrocities....everything to them is a plot of mossad or the cia.

[ShortnFiery]

12. "defensive war"

No, I fear that the Government of Israel is waging a war of aggression. :(

[Superman Returns]

15. a couple of thougths.

One poster said that for the capturing of only two soliders, Israel went too far. But I think the bigger development is the existance of thousands upon thousands of long range rockets. I think another development is the Iranian/Syrianin infuence. This was a strategy and the long term objective is the undermining and destruction of the state of Israel until the Jews are in the sea. Everytime I see an innoncent Lebanese dead I want to throw up. But if their is a militia on your border, what security is that? Agreements, cease-fires mean nothing. You have to take them out.

[ShortnFiery]

17. Yeah, to you, the ONLY answer is more killing. Perfect!

:sarcasm:

[Cameron27]

24. I agree with you..

If Hezbollah had the means, Israel would be dust and the Jews driven into the sea. They've said as much, many, many times.

I hope this conflict is over quickly, and regret the loss of civilian lives.

[The Straight Story]

112. And you know what is really really sad about your comment?

That if that did happen (Israel driven into the sea, etc) I know there would be some here saying they had it coming for the bad things they did. "This would never have happend if they had not made other people hate them" kind of thing.

I remember similar things from 9/11. I then also remember people being upset when others criticized islam as they were afraid it would lead to hate crimes (yet the hatred I see of christianity on here doesn't lead to hate crimes?).

[sgxnk]

14. utter rubbish

"I believe Israel has a right to exist, but its tactics are the same as that of the terrorists"

rubbish

(i always sound veddy british when i get peeved)

there have been over 1600 (no typo) missiles lobbed into israel
the primary difference is their technology (and aiming) SUCKS

they also hide their "military" forces PURPOSEFULLY in civilian areas, INVITING any civilian bloodshed. they WANT to create martyrs

their tactics are NOTHING like the israelis. israel does not hide their munitions in civilian houses.

the reason that israel's "bodycount" is so much higher is that they have VASTLY superior firepower/technology

it is hezbollah et al who want israel GONE forever.


it is israel that wants merely to exist

[endarkenment]

18. "there have been over 1600 (no typo) missiles lobbed into israel "

And how many of those were launched before Israel starting bombing the crap out of Lebanon?

[ShortnFiery]

20. "it is hezbollah et al who want israel GONE forever."

Based on the death and distruction that is ongoing in Lebanon as we type - to MOSTLY innocent civilians, I think you have the above statement backwards. :(

[Jara sang]

52. Israel was born from terrorism.

Jewish terrorism not arab terrorism. Zionists murdered 91 people at the King David hotel.

[applegrove]

16. Bet ya $1500 dollars if we could find the poster.. it would be a neocon.

Don't ya get it? You are being wedged. Most everyone things Israel has a right to defend itself (though they don't quite get this). Half of Lebannon want Hezbollah out! out! out!.

We support Louise Arbour's UN statements on avoidable civilian casualties should be prosecuted if they happen with willy-nilly bombs. Because we know Israel can pretty much hit the nipple, the third from the left, on a nursing bitches stomach...any where in Southern Lebanon.

Ignore the pot stirrers. Or the DUers who have fallen for it. Don't ya know..stage two of Rove 30 year empire is to get a small percentage of very pro-Israel voters to flip to Repukes?

Ignore the idiots and speak for yourself. And don't let anyone change your thinking. This was all easily avoidable. By cutting aid and not replacing it with anything (like Saudi & Iranian step ups in long term aid).. Bush and Canada and Europe pretty much promised that Hezbollah would start a war or support Hamas in starting a war...because peace means the end for them. Iran and Saudi Arabia are very rich. Canada gives aid to like 120 countries. Saudi Arabia and Iran could easily have filled in the missing dollars. They are in fact the richest countries in the world (at least the elites are). Don't fall for it.

Hezbollah may have had to "create a crisis" in order to renew their popularity in Lebannon. It was obvious. It was expected. Reaction would be just as it has been. The world is the same as its always been under Bush. When Rove targets your particular group for wedging.. you will feel afraid until the ends of your soul by what would make you afraid the most. This has been going on since 2001, but earlier too. If you were gay or Christian or whatever. Now they hit you. And create conflict at home re: Israel's reaction.

Don't buy it. Courage. When this is over.. America's long term support of Israel will be the same as it has always been. No need to panic. It will be okay. For you. Not for the civilians on the ground there... but for you. Nothing will change. Unless you allow them to change you.

You don't have to choose between Israel and all the democratic values you hold dear. You don't.

[ShortnFiery]

21. Yeah, every country invades a sovereign nation when a couple of

troops are CAPTURED. Sure, forget in the past - it was resolved via prisoner swaps.

NO! Don't look behind the curtain. :grr:

[Superman Returns]

23. Did someone accuse me of being a neocon?

Is that the new word to describe Jewish posters who disagree? Ugly days at DU, ugly days.

[ShortnFiery]

27. Oh cease with the hyperbole - Aggressive warfare, killing more innocents

by far than military and repeated International Humanitarian Rules ignored.

No, Neo-Con = warmonger.

Anyone who thinks that the Government of Israel is justified to bomb the hell out of mostly civilians from thousands of feet with their mighty mighty war planes, is living in one hell of an delusional world.

Newsflash: Nearly the entire World Community HATES both USA and the Government of Israel BECAUSE THEY ARE BULLY WARMONGERING SUPER-POWERS.

Get a clue!

[Superman Returns]

31. wooops

oh never mind. I was not called a neocon. I now understand what the poster saying. Sorry! :)

The poster said that person who started the thread that got me upset was a Rove ploy. Maybe, but I think we all know there is a large sector of DU that wants Israel. Sorry, but its true.

[ShortnFiery]

37. I want Israel to be a GOOD and COMPASSIONATE Neighbor

because Israel has all the MIGHT, they are on the hook to YES, show restraint.

I want Israel to show compassion and fairness to the Palestinian People and butt-out of Lebanese Politics which emplaced 23 Hezbollah politicians into THEIR democratically elected government.

No, I want Israel to stop playing "Big Brother" in the ME. :(

[applegrove]

I've actually seen very little hate Israel.. threads on the DU in the last

few years. Most of that stuff is perhaps found on a link to some weird website. Very little.

Perhaps there is more now. I'm sure Rove is dancing. We know the neocons are.

Don't let yourself be wedged.

Vast majority of the country believes Israel has a right to defend itself. We question only why civilians are targets.

[applegrove]

70. And wedging Israel and people to one or the other side of an issue..

is not a Rove ploy? Sorry. But they have tried to slice and dice the whole nation. Welcome to the club. Everyone has been separated from their neighbours.. in ways most intimate and fear-inspiring.

That's what happens when the psychopaths run your country.

[applegrove]

63. Not in the least. I never accused you. I told you to not fall for it.

Don't fall for the wedge. I had only kind words for you. And heartfelt ones.

[PassingFair]

114. Uglier than the other 100 DAYS you've been here?

The moderators should BAN you, and chase
these subjective, never-ending Israel/
Palestine issues back into the dungeon
where they belong.

We DO need an even-handed approach.
EVERYWHERE.

[Posteritatis]

122. Yeah, that's it, every new guy's a conservative. (n/t)

[catmother]

123. i was told yesterday that one of my pro-israel statements

sounded like it came from the Free Republic or Freepers.

[applegrove]

62. Tunneling to capture soldiers and use the threat of a very public death

is an al Qaeda like terrorist tactic. And it was meant to unleash Israel's fury.

Let's worry about the civilians shall we?

[MGD]

121. Prisoner swaps only justify the continued use of kidnapping as a tactic

Israel has stated that it will not legitimize this tactic by being part of it anymore. What's more, it took more than a few kidnapped soldiers to instigate this war.

[Maiden England]

120. I guess I'm the reason Kerry lost then

Since I worked on his campaign and agree 100% with the OP.

[stepnw1f]

127. What a Well-Reasoned Post

and I do think you are onto something here.

[liberalpragmatist]

25. It is wrong to call for the destruction of Israel..

... or to defend Hezbollah which DID start this conflict. Hezbollah's missile attacks are indefensible. I also mourn all the Israeli civilians and soldiers whose lives have been lost. But I hope you're not dismissing those of us with serious concerns about the wisdom of Israel's response. Israel has a right to respond to attack, but my own personal view is that the type of response they are conducting is more emotional than anything else. 300+ Lebanese civilians have died and according to Ha'aretz Hezbollah has hardly even been damaged. All the while the Israeli government has reduced much of South Lebanon to rubble and even non-Shia, non-Hezbollah areas of Lebanon (even Christian areas) are being bombed. How this achieves Israel's aims I cannot foresee, though I would be happy to be proven wrong by events.

Obviously, Hezbollah needs to be disarmed and if this conflict forces the world and Lebanon to do that, then at least some good will have come of it; I'm skeptical, however, that collectively punishing ALL of Lebanon is going to achieve that and even if it does, I remain skeptical that such actions were the only way compliance could have been forced.

And please don't start disparaging all Democrats because of Israel and Palestine. The overwhelming majority of DU'ers themselves aren't calling for the destruction of Israel (although I can't speak for all DU'ers), even if they're opposed to the current actions of the Israeli government. And the majority of Democrats nationwide support Israel.

[ShortnFiery]

33. Agreed, but it doesn't give the govt of Israel a free ticket to KILLING

more civilians, just because THEY choose to NOT NEGOTIATE with your enemy.

Israel is committing WAR CRIMES right now.

It's beyond time for a cease fire.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. I hope you've put your flame suit on.

If this cancer spreads as I see it spreading, the Progressives will be on their own without we Democrats who support Israel. I refuse to be associated with this crap. I'm embarrassed to call myself a Progressive if THIS is what it is and has become. I have a hard time understanding why it's being tolerated. Maybe our financial support is irrelevant now since DU has grown to be as big as it is? Maybe we LONGTIME supporters are just a drop in the bucket now? YEARS and YEARS of financial support and THIS is the thanks we get.:( Maybe Skinner and company are on vacation? Who knows, but at any rate, DU is not the DU I knew and LOVED.

I've had enough.

[Wonk]

30. I've noticed they tend to interfere with reading comprehension skills. nt

[ShortnFiery]

38. FYI personally do not ever chose the term Progressive ...

albeit I try not to judge other, I consider MYSELF the term "progressive" half-assed chickenshit. <tongue-in-cheek>

1) Liberal; 2)Moderate; or Conservative = Please choose ONE and stick with it, will ya? ;)

[readmoreoften]

93. Progressive has a longer history than "liberal"

and it is more accurate for what I believe.

The economic system in the US is "neo-liberal". Reagan was a "neo-liberal". Progressive is hardly a "chickenshit" term. It is usually used by people on the left (including Democrats) to indicate that they are in support of social progress as opposed to conservatives (who do not want progress.)

Although right now I might say that right now I am more of a PRESERVATIVE than anything. I want to preserve the bill of rights, constitution, and American democracy.

[Cameron27]

39. I'm so happy that you said this

I wondered what kind of message board I had joined. And it's not that I expected there wouldn't be differing opinions about the extent to which Israel should go to defend herself, that's a good discussion. But among some of the more hateful opinons, Hezbollah is offered "refuge" in the minds of some DU'ers and THAT I will never understand or abide.

[ShortnFiery]

42. Israel is now the #1 Recruiter for Hezabollah Promotion ...

THE HATE is the result of all this continued killing by the government of Israel.

They over-responded ON PURPOSE because they were begging for an excuse. :(

[Tsiyu]

43. So don't just threaten to leave

Leave already, if a few posters stir you up this much.

The I/P conflict is a longstanding one and you already knew BEFORE this conflict that there are those who will disagree with Israel's position.

But i wonder what any of the American die-hard Israel supporters would do if a tribe of Native Americans demanded their ancestral lands back. Would you move out of your family home so the tribe could have their sacred land back? Would you be happy if they DEMANDED that you give them all of your property?

I used to think Israel was a good idea. But after I've read of the atrocities committed by Israel against others, I am inclined to think that they really don't understand how to get along. Yes, there are Arab states who want them gone, but they certainly are not trying to understand the position of Palestinians, are they?

Compromise can work, but only when the PTB want peace. Neither the Israeli gov't nor the Hezbollah forces want peace or even understand how to achieve it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. It's more than a few posters.

It's rampant here and I'll leave when I'm ready, thanks. So, since Israel is a bad idea, what is YOUR solution for a State of Israel?

[Tsiyu]

53. Why was Israel created in the first place?

And if you please, you never answered my question.

If you lived on sacred Native American land, in a house built by your grandfather, and the UN decided that the Cherokee or Hopi or whoever should have that land back, would you just roll over and move out?

Or would you have some resentment, fear, sorrow over what you were losing? Or would you fight to keep your property?

Are Israelis worth more than Arabs as humans? Are they better people, perhaps? Not by the looks of the atrocities they've committed against Palestinian children.

[Wonk]

56. That is the underlying theme to arguments such as those.

Some people are "more equal" than others.

It's "bad" when "they" terrorize innocent civilians, but it's "acceptable" or "necessary" when "we" do it.

[Balbus]

60. I'd strap a bomb-vest around my son and send him into

the first Cherokee or Hopi shopping mall I could find... Is that the right answer?

[Tsiyu]

66. For some people

But really, everybody skirts around the issue of displacing people, as if it's just a given that Palestinians don't matter, Israel's comin' Baby, so get out of the way. All of this should have been foreseen before there was a plan to give the Israelis Jerusalem.

Three faiths see Jerusalem as a Holy city. Why did the Israelis get the land and no one else?

I know the historical answers, I'm asking for the HUMAN answers.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. Well, since I've already called for our Native Americans to get their land

yes...what I have is theirs. Take it. Land and material things are unimportant to me. My family is the most important thing in my life. A house/land/things? Means little in the grand scheme of things.

Are Israelis worth more than Arabs? NO.

Are they better people, perhaps? NO.

Did I answer all your questions?

Now, you think "Israel" was a bad idea. What do YOU suggest for a State of Israel? Do you think the Jews should just assimilate into other countries? Do you think they shouldn't have a Jewish State? Do you think they should be run into the sea? What is it YOU want for Israel, if anything.

ME? I think they should buy an island as far away from the ME as they can get and start anew. What do you suggest they do?

[Tsiyu]

80. I'm with you on your last idea

I think, in hindsight, forcing the people in that area to accept a "new" Israel was destined to backfire. It was done in a conciliatory moment without regard for the long-term consequences.

I believe that if they truly want their own space without conflict, they should find some place where they don't have to take away the property of others. I feel for their situation, surrounded by those who hate them, but they surely are not doing anything to try to help subdue that hatred.


And even if my family had a "right" to someone else's property, i could never take it from them. But we have a lot of people hell-bent on fulfilling some inane biblical prophecy the Jews don't even believe, as it's all New Testament babble.

[Mass]

84. So I guess you are leaving your land, because you are on somebody

else's property, except if you are a Native American.

[Tsiyu]

92. As I said on another thread, I would do so

If I was ordered to by the UN and was fairly compensated. But I would feel the same resentment, sorrow and anger the Palestinians feel.

Are you supporting Israel in taking over the land of the people who lived there when Israel was re-created? What point are you trying to make? You sound as if you find that giving up my property to Native Americans would be some sort of punishment for me, a payback. So do you think the Palestinians have been punished?

I'm really confused by your line of questioning, but perhaps you will clarify.

[Mass]

99. I am not supporting anybody here. I am however pointing at the futility

of wanting to rewrite history. Yes, this land belonged to the Palestinians and the UN gave it for a Jewish nation (largely in compensation for the holocaust, IMHO, and also partly by antisemitism: hell, Jews would have a country, so why should we make additional efforts to fight antisemitism).

However, except if you are advocating the end of the Israeli state (which I am not), there is little to do about that. (I asked the question because, if you advocate the end of the state of Israel, the equivalent in this country would be to end the USA. If you think you can undo what was done in 1948, you should be thinking that we can undo what was mostly done in the 1800s. I know 200 years seems long in the USA, but, for Europe, it is only a small drop of time).

The best we can do is to push so that a solution will exist that will create a two-state solution where the two people will be able to leave in peace (my tendency would be a one-state secular solution, but sometimes, you have to recognize it will not happen). We should fight for that, and I am sure many Israelis and Palestinian people would agree (not the extremists on both side, the regular people).

[in_cog_ni_to]

88. The problem, as I see it

is .....I just don't think MY plan for an island somewhere is in the future, do you? Do you think Israeli leaders and the citizens will ever say..."It's just not worth all the pain, agony, deaths, sadness, endless fighting, ect"...? Do you think that would ever happen? Realistically speaking.

[Tsiyu]

101. I keep hoping for this, but?

There was a program I watched about a group that put Israeli and Palestinian children together. They learned to love each other and tried to understand each other.

It was a sign of hope, I thought. But old hatreds die hard.

In my neighborhood, for example, we've had a huge family buy a couple of tracts of land and they have shown a total disregard for anyone else on our road. It's pissed off a lot of us, but we've all tried to be patient and tolerant. We've all offered them help and advice ( which they refuse to take because what the hell do we know about this area? They know SO much more, coming from 600 miles away.)

Two of them tried to come on my property threatening to kick my 100 pound self when they were pissed at me, and I sent my son in for the shotgun. Yes, I will defend my life. BUT After the law talked to them, they decided to get real quiet and to live by the rules a bit more. It has been very peaceful ever since my son fired that one warning shot. Very peaceful and pleasant as it was before they came.

But even if the adults of that gang threatened me again, I would not fire onto THEIR property, nor would I lob grenades over onto their land threatening to kill their kids. The issue was resolved by my not backing down WITHOUT DEADLY FORCE ( but ready to use it if necessary) and by them realizing they had to try a little harder to get along with their neighbors.

Humans CAN work things out, but when you've got so much death on both sides, the anger and resentment is stronger than the desire for peace. In a way, both sides hate each other more than they love their own children.

[Mass]

67. By this basis, you should leave the US, go back to Europe or wherever

your ancestors came from, and let the Native Americans take charge of this country, because, as far as I can see, not only has this country committed atrocities against their children, but it has also committed a genocide in the real term of the word.

[Tsiyu]

87. From your keyboard to the ears of the Universe

baby, I'd love it if Native Americans took over!

But where would my ancestral lands be? I am of Italian, French, Dutch, Scotch and Iroquois ancestry.

AND as far as the last half of your statement, you are absolutely correct. Every nation has done its share of atrocities. But Israel is claiming victim status for itself. I'm not claiming this for the US. I am as disgusted by my government as I am by the Israeli government.

I want the fucking adults to stop acting like two-year-olds and work things out.

[Mass]

95. SO would I. A pissing match is not going to help. Asking our govt

to ask for a cease fire and a dialogue without attacking one side or the other (read DK bill) may on the contrary, make things advance. It is time to impose our reps and senators (those who are democrats at least) that they fight for peace: not for the Palestinians (or the Lebanese in this case), not for the Israelis, but for a real peace where Palestinians and Israelis will be able to leave in peace.

However, I have noticed that people on DU prefer calling each other names, so I guess this will have to come from somebody else.

[Tsiyu]

103. Ignore the name-callers

Actually, most of the posts I've seen have been civil, but then I've stayed out of this til today.

And I wonder how we could ever expect them to listen to our warmongering government. It's just a huge mess, like the one we've created in Iraq, that will only be overcome by intense human willpower and desire for peace OR total annhilation of our planet.

My bet's on the latter happenning first.

[eridani]

135. It's beside the point whether Israel is a good idea or not

The fact is that there are several generations of people with roots there who really can't go anyplace else now. Now if they'd only agree to stick to the 1967 borders and quit stealing water and destroying Palestinian property, we might be able to get their neighbors to publicly stand up and support Israel's continued existence.

[chimpymustgo]

57. How is it progressive to condone the slaughter of innocents, destruction

of a country's infrastructure? Was it fine when we did it to Iraq? NO. And it's not okay now. It's disgusting.

[cracksquirrel]

59. Exactly

And this is why I didn't go to any of the anti-war marches/rallies back in 2003 and beyond. They were all coopted by ANSWER and other quasi-Leninist organizations and I refuse to march in a rally next to someone porting a "Smash the Zionist State" sign or this lovely piece of work:



That pic was in SF at one of the anti-war rallies. Iraq was immediately conflated with Palestine, and all voices to the contrary were drowned out by the constant drumbeat of ANSWER, the ISM, or the ISO. As much as I despise the current, spineless Democratic establishment, the ONLY thing they've grown a pair over is Israel.

[Scurrilous]

65. How's things...

..over at LGF?

[cracksquirrel]

79. Oh I see

Well you've outed me, I'm just another Zioneofundiebushcon (tm) out to spread dissent within the ranks. Your backbreaking research and endless investigations that went into sniffing out all undesireables here at DU is an inspiration to everyone... That's an actual picture from an actual anti-war rally in San Francisco in 2003. Sadly, the only site that hosts that kind of sickening imagery is a right-wing nutbag's personal website where he chronicles the "wacky left" in the Bay Area. If what I said isn't true, feel free to point it out. I think images like that speak for themselves.
Other posters here have said, as I have, that we are just as progressive as everyone else here at DU when it comes to womens' rights, the environment, the Iraq catastrophe, the handling of the war against "isms", and all those other things that should bring us together; there is just ONE thing that many of us deviate from the crowd about, and that is Israel. I don't see that as grounds for accusations of being a freeper or a... uh... what the hell do you call a LGF poster? A Greener? A little green... eh, I'll leave that to someone feeling more comically inclined at the moment.

[Scurrilous]

97. Backbreaking research?

I right-clicked on the pic and checked properties.

BTW...post pictures from a hate site and you'll get called on it. Parrot their anti-ANSWER and anti-ISM rants and you'll get called on that too. :thumbsup:

[cracksquirrel]

100. Squawk!

No crackers, thanks, but I WILL take the double helping of "I'm entitled to my own opinions, and guilt by association just isn't going to cut it." I think I'm allowed to have problems with ANSWER and the ISM, even if some of their goals are noble. I'm just not going to do their cheerleading.
And yes, like I said, I wish I could find another source for those pictures on a progressive or neutral website, but I haven't found one yet. If it makes you happy, I'll download it and upload it onto some other imagehost.

[High Plains]

73. Waah.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. And I've had enough with posters who think that Israel can do no wrong

and can't see that its tactic of massive bombing of people who had nothing to do with the guerilla raids is only creating more enemies.

Within Lebanon itself, the warring factions came to their senses in the early 1990s and realized that their revenge cycle was doing nothing but destroying their country. THEY SIMPLY STOPPED AVENGING. Instead, they concentrated on rebuilding their country.

Now Israel comes in and undoes all the rebuilding.

Smart, very smart. I guess it will at least unite the Christians and Muslims. :sarcasm:

[bling bling]

113. I guess we're in the same boat.

I don't blame DU admins, but there is no doubt that the overall atmosphere has turned a lot of people off because I don't see many names that I recognize anymore. What I want to know is where did the Democrats go? For the past few months I've found myself in threads arguing with people (and these people are the majority in the threads) who insist that Obama doesn't represent "us". That was pretty much the first red flag that maybe I don't belong here.

The hateful Israel comments coming from the great majority pretty much solidifies it. Sadly.

I feel like I've lost a good friend. I'm still a little bit in the denial phase but I think I'm just kidding myself. It's not the same

[bullimiami]

29. I vehemently dislike the current israeli govt for the

same reasons i disliked sharon, bush, his father and reagan.

i abhor militant aggression as a policy to achieve political goals.

this will fail, as will the mistake in iraq and afghanistan and no solutions will be found and it will just make the situation worse.

the goal is peace and justice for all.

I am jewish btw since it seems to matter to you.

[DanCa]

35. This situation is beyond my comprehension.

I cannot "choose" a side in this. I simply can't processe all the information. I promise though I wont insult anyone who has a difference of opinion. I hope that's cool

[Mojambo]

50. I'm kinda with you

No easy answers here and I'm kinda annoyed by the folks on both sides who think this is a clear cut issue.

[Betsy Ross]

41. My heart aches with every report of

a bomb landing, injury report, casualty numbers on both sides. I do not know what Israel knows about Hizbollah, Iran, or Syria. I do know that when push comes to shove, Israel is alone in this world and can only rely on itself to protect its citizens. As such, I leave military decisions to them.

I recently attended a counter-demonstration to a "free Palestine" rally. Chants of "Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea" seem rather unequivocal in their meaning. Hizbollah, Hamas, and Iran have all cleary stated the goal of the elimination of Israel if not Klal Yisrael (all Jews).

There are hundreds of nominally Christian countries in the world. There are more than 50 nominally Muslim countries. There is one Jewish state, may it always exist.

I know this thread, and maybe me directly, will get flamed. But it is worth it to have just one thread where those who are not anti-Israel can share and know they are not alone.

[atreides1]

45. I'm neither pro-Israel or pro-Hezbollah.

"Basically a thread called for the destruction of Israel while justifying the actions of a terrorist group. Not only must Israel be redrawn to the pre-67 borders but to the pre- 47 borders. Basically this poster wants Israel off the map and to never have existed!"

The border cannot be re-drawn, besides Israel has already returned the Sinai back to Egypt, all that remains is the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The process to return the West Bankand the Gaza Strip was part of the Peace process, unfortunately that's been postponed. And just to let you know, Israel became a country in 1948, so I'm not exactly sure where the "pre-47 borders" idea
came from.


"Now, innocent civilians are being killed. Its tragic, terrible, and depressing. Yet I can take a picture of an innocent dead civilian from Dresden, from Hiroshima, etc...and post it Sadly we wars cannot be waged without innocent blood. War is the basic failure of civilization. But as a sovereign nation, with rockets capable of striking the heart of the country, what choice does Israel have but to push these Hezbollah back? Does it not have an obligation to its citizens?"

We're not talking about Dresden or Hiroshima, which were targeted for the terror effect, not because of vast military locations. The rockets being fired by Hezbollah were not being fired from the airport, seaport, Lebanese military barracks, or the city of Tripoli, they were being fired from southern and eastern Lebanon, an area known to be controlled by Hezbollah. What Israel is doing is the same thing that the allies did to Dresden and what the Americans did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
using attacks to intimidate people who do not have the power to make changes. The plan isn't working very well, instead of causing a breakup the Israelis might very well be creating a Lebanese people who are tired of being told what to do by outsiders. The Israelis may very well make the Lebanese one people who will fight together, Muslim and Christian.

Israel has the right to defend itself, but it also has the responsibility to target those who are attacking them, not people who are as innocent as those Israelis who live withing striking distance
of the rockets.


"Finally, let me say that if Iran, Syria, or Hezbollah had the weapons Israel does, there would be a holocaust. Some might say that as a democratic nation, Israel should have higher standards than them. Yet what does that prove? That there is no morally equivalence between Israel and Hezbollah. These people want Israel gone, off the map, like apparently this poster does. There is no reasoning with Iran's leadership and his nexus of terror allies."

How do you know what weapons the Syrians or Iranians have, over the last few years both countries have been making purchases from the Russians and the Chinese, who over the years have gained the ability to make weapons as high tech as what the US sells to Israel.

I guess Israel isn't capable of having higher standard, they have taken out complete apartment buildings just to kill one Hamas leader, and in the process they also killed woman and children. The problem is that within a week Hamas has another leader. So no, I for one do not expect Israel to have higher standards, their conflict against the Palestinians have already shown that.

"I am sick of this garbage. I supported this website. I supported Democrats. Teddy Roosevelt and FDR are the icons I admire. I want a government that fights for the common good, that stands against corruption and corporate power. I want a government that supports a womans right to choice, takes a stand for the environment, acknowledges global warming, and embraces science. But if this is what lurks in the heart party than everyone can go to hell. You are making Democrats look like collectively like fools who shouldn't run an aquarium let alone a country."

I would guess that you plan too no longer support this website or Democrats? And perhaps you should read a book titled "While Six Million Died", it might cause you to reflect on your admiration of FDR.
We would all like to have the same kind of government, along with one that can tolerate different views, without taking it as a personal attack.

I support Israel's right to exist and its right to defend itself, but that doesn't mean I won't question the means that it uses. You seem to only want the kind of Democrats who will agree with you on Israel, well learn to live with disappointment. The only fools here are those who condemn the US for its action in Iraq, but are willing to give Israel a free pass and look the other way.

Neither side in this conflict is without guilt, both have the blood of innocents on their hands, and if you can't see that then, maybe you don't belong here.

[Superman Returns]

48. some more thoughts

I understand that a lot of people who disagree with Israel have nothing personal against the Jewish state and do not want to see it gone. I realize their main concern for is for preservation of innocent life. Well, if your gonna have a strong view then nothing can be more admirable for having one based on the desire to see people live. I get that.

But I've been monitoring these sites like DU and Daily Kos that I read daily yet usually do not post on. And let me just say that there are a lot of voices that question the very root of Israel's existence. And there are a lot of people who sympathize with the goals and philosophy of fanatical religious extremists. If your a liberal who sympathizes with Robertson and Falwell then your not a real liberal. If your a liberal who sympathizes with Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iran then you are not a real liberal.

I am against the Iraq War because it was the wrong war to fight. It was not a good strategy. It was based on half-truths and deception. I do support a War on Terror. And I do realize its bigger than going around killing terrorists. Its about creating a world that drains the need for people to sympathize with these groups in the first place. But the first step, killing terrorists can not be overlooked. The word "terrorist" get flung around a lot these days. Insurgents in Iraq may not be really terrorists in the traditional sense and is more a way of the media justifying their actions rather than saying they are disgruntled Iraqis- the same people we sought to liberate. But there are religious fanatical terrorists. Hezbollah is one. Their members are not inherently evil. But they are brainwashed and frustrated. They want to destroy Israel. I support going after them.

I am an FDR Democrat. But I'm not a person skipping through the fields in a never never land. And the liberals that have been making the case against the very existence of Israel seem to be in the vain of arab marxism rather than liberals. I don't know what to think anymore.

[xchrom]

86. aren't falwell and robertson good allies of israel?

i believe the fundies just hosted a hair-on-fire event showing their support of israel vs lebanon.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. .

:applause:

:yourock:

:woohoo:

[Mass]

55. Interesting how nobody answered that Dresden and Hiroshima are warcrimes.

However, I will recommend your thread because, though I disagree with you that Israel is not to blame for bombing Beyruth (actually, what is worse, I think, is that it goes against its best interest), I have seen the garbage that you are talking about, particularly the thread about Zionism and antisemitism and the glorification of Pat Buchanan.

[jonnyblitz]

58. I am sure there are plenty of sites that you can go to that

are cheerleading this carnage if that is what you think being Pro-Israel entails. Don't expect much support for crimes against humanity on a progressive discussion board. there is a reason why the whole world despises the USA and Israel.

[Rex]

61. The UN should have never stuck the Israelis in such a perilous position.

I'm all for the Nation of Israel, everyone deserves a chance at happiness. The way it was DONE however leads me to believe there will never be peace in the ME. I want a government that STAYS OUT of other countries business.

[Superman Returns]

71. something tell me .....

that if you want ALL the land turned back over and for the entire place to be renamed Palestine that you are advocating for the lack of existance of Israel and in doing so, advocating its destruction. Am I wrong?

[Superman Returns]

75. btw

my previous statement wasn't a response to Rex & his UN comments. It was a reply to the thread "Suppose the UN gave our land away to some people"

[Wonk]

76. So reply in that other thread then. nt

[Superman Returns]

78. no

this is my home thread now.

[Wonk]

81. Is that how threads work on LGF? nt

[Superman Returns]

82. whats LGF?

[Scurrilous]

116. LGF = littlegreenfootballs

Named "Best Israel Advocacy Blog" in 2005 by the Jerusalem Post. Characterized as 'constitutionally protected hate-speech' by LA Magazine.

[cracksquirrel]

90. Har har

But seriously, you need to cut that crap out. But hey, thanks for not calling him a nazi or anything. It's a step up, right? :banghead:

[burythehatchet]

83. I think there should be better flow from the kitchen to the den

lets call the design folks.

[Rex]

96. So if this ain't a reply to me then why not delete it?

:eyes:

[oasis]

89. In time, we'll all get past this like we did when Jenin was leveled.

Everyone here will be back to being pals again.:hug:

[populistdriven]

91. I am pro Israel and pray for the destruction of all ME armies and militias

[pberq]

98. spokesperson for the Israeli Committee Against the War

How do Pro-Israel Democrats feel about Israelis like this one? In my opinion he is the voice of sanity.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/1435205

. . .We’re going to go to Northern Israel to speak with Illan Pappe, an Israeli historian, author and political scientist at the University of Haifa. His latest book is called A History of Modern Palestine. Joining us on the line from Haifa, Professor Pappe. Thank you for joining us. We’re also speaking to Ralph Nader, on the line here in the United States.

ILLAN PAPPE: Hello, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. Can you talk about what’s happening in Haifa right now, the rocket attacks on your city, and your response?

ILLAN PAPPE: Well, today was a relative quiet day. There were several sirens, but no rockets fell, unlike tomorrow. But I’m aware that what we are going through pales in comparison to what goes on on the other side of the border, where a large number of civilians have been killed.

And I think I can talk also as a spokesperson for the Israeli Committee Against the War, that the citizens of Haifa, Palestinians and Jews alike, there are quite a large number of them who ask probably the same questions that Ralph Nader asked before. Why doesn't our government accept the offer of the United Nations to an immediate ceasefire and the beginning of diplomatic negotiations? And why does the United States, in the most immoral position I have ever recalled since the end of the second World War, tells us and the poor citizens of Lebanon that it doesn't mind the mutual killing of citizens, so that the military operation could go on, where it knows that it has the power to stop today the shelling of both Israelis and Lebanese and to start maybe a more fruitful negotiations, not only over the questions of the prisoners of war, but maybe even over the question of the comprehensive solution.

(more. . .)

[Mr_Spock]

102. blah, blah, blah

Post number zillion on the identical topic - yawn

[Superman Returns]

104. no its not the same topic

this is the home thread for pro-Israel DU'ers. Do I blindly follow Israel? No. Do they make mistakes? Yes, all countries do. But I support them on destroying Hezbollah. This is a thread for this opinion. Arguments for different opinions are welcome but thread was designed as a base for us like minded folk.

[Dark]

105. If the Anti-Israelis laid down their weapons, there'd be no more war.

If Israelis laid down their weapons, there'd be no more Israelis.

That, for me, says enough.

[Superman Returns]

106. amen Dark

moral equivalency....I think not.

[blonndee]

107. And if "both" sides laid down their weapons, what would happen? nt

[Superman Returns]

110. well,

I dont see Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorists from laying down their weapons until Israel is 100 percent gone.

[blonndee]

111. I agree, and I see the converse as equally true. nt

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blonndee]

134. Why don't you understand

that what's good for the goose is good for the FUCKING gander. Israel appears to not want peace, either. Why don't YOU understand that?

Oh, and nice tone, BTW. You're likely to gain lots more support by attacking everyone who disagrees with you. Hope that works out for you better than it's working out in the Middle East.

[SammyBlue]

136. BECAUSE I'VE READ THE DAMN HAMAS AGENDA

TEN YEARS OF DAMN RESEARCH LEADING UP TO MY START OF A PhD tells me you don't understand the conflict.

Grow up a little. . .don't talk down to me. When you sound like a pie in the sky idealistic child, I will talk to you like one!

Hamas and Hezbollah don't want peace or coexistance. They want Israel destroyed. Why can't you accept that, or can Hamas and Hezbollah do no wrong in your eyes?

[blonndee]

138. LOL of course

you would resort to attacks, again. I was responding to the claim that if the "other side" would just disarm, everything would be hunky-dory, and I don't think it's fair to expect that of one side and not the other. I also think that THAT itself is a "pie in the sky idealization." You can see what happens to those who are largely unarmed (Gaza refugees, anyone?) and so I don't buy it that one side disarming would solve anything. Follow the thread back up before you start attributing any agenda to me that doesn't exist.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robinlynne]

109. That explains it well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

115. There might be no more war

but both the occupation and the oppression would continue.

If Israel were fighting only for its own land, I would support it wholeheartedly; as long as it continues to try to hold onto other people's, and to treat them so abominably, I cannot do so.

[Dark]

131. I would support the Palestinians IF they took a peaceful route like

Ghandi or MLK Jr.

But they have chosen to deliberately attack civilians, so I sympathize with Israel.

[k_jerome]

118. well said. nt.

[Maiden England]

119. Thank you for posting this

I stand with you my friend. I too have been disgusted with some of the rubbish posted on this board.

[whosinpower]

124. Hizbollah was born

out of the ashes of a disastrous occupation by Israel in Lebanon.

And Hizbollah garners allot of popularity within Lebanon - for seeking to defend Lebanon from an occupier. For building schools, hospitals, mosques. I got that information from a lebanon blog - so am unsure of its validity. And like it or not - Hizbollah is a political power within Lebanon. Same as Hamas is a political power. Like it or not. Bombing them will not stop the movement. It only allows that movement to become even more radical, more hateful. Only a political process can ensure long term peace. Anything less is folly.

Israel currently has over 9000 prisoners without trial, without charges, with or without "blood on their hands."
How many thousands of Israeli's does Hizbollah currently hold?????? What is that? Oh - 2 military soldiers.

You state that these two parties wish to see Israel pushed into the sea. That may be true - but then again, abstracts of this nature are very helpful in eliminating all discussion of wrongs committed in the past.

Wrongs committed by Israel - and those who wish to see those wrongs brought to the light of day have no voice in the international arena, have little power and are reduced to using force to gain a point.

Case in point - a family gets murdered on a beach that was shelled by Israel. Israel denies this even though international investigators point out that the family obviously were killed from above, not activating a mine from below - and there are Israeli shell fragments. Was there at the very least - an apology? No - only a denial. And very little is said in the media......until Hamas kidnaps an Israeli soldier. Israel reciprocated by kidnapping Hamas leadership family. Hizbollah reciprocates with its own kidnapping and the rest is war.

I don't know what the answers are - but calling for the total and utter destruction of an entire political movement is same as mass murder. And it is wrong. Terrorism is born for a reason - and it is not just for the destruction of the state of Israel - there is more to it than that. And it would behoove all parties to fully understand the whole story instead of just picking and choosing and leaving the rest to a blank abstract.

For myself - I would much rather see a demilitarized zone where both nations give up a sizable parcel of land along the border - to be occupied by international peacekeepers. I would much rather see Hizbollah empowered with a political will rather than resorting to missiles. I would see them disarm. And I would see Israel pay for its destruction of Lebanon. I would see all three parties be forced to negotiate a peace treaty - via sanctions of both nations until such agreement was reached, signed, sealed, delivered and ratified.

Then again - I am a nobody who wishes for peace now - not later by supposedly eliminating an enemy - that is not a path to peace - it is a path to neverending war, strife and pain.

[Alameda]

125. Peace and love and let's chill out

All this rude talk about Israel and hurtful anti-Zionist rhetoric is killing me. As in all groups there are some good, and some not so good.

Let's chill out and get our facts straight! The situation is the Levant is not simple and can not be understood by reading a few pamphlets.

Although I don't like the Likud party platform, I also do not like the Hamas platform either. Hezbullah and Hamas do not have well wishes for Israel. Many of the radical settlers do not have generous motives toward the Palestinians.

However, most of us would not like at all living under a government run by either Hamas of Hizbullah. We need to actually read their charters to see what we are talking about.

We need to be civil and try to understand what is really going on. There is a very long history of outside meddeling in the affairs of the area.

Peace!

[Nikki Stone 1]

137. You are right on here.

Thanks for trying to keep a level head. I, for one, appreciate it.

[The Magistrate]

140. Locking

Flame-Bait and a flame-war to boot.