What is an Anti-Zionist? Are you one?

[Bonobo]

What does it mean to be against Zionism or to be an Anti-Zionist?

I really want to know.

[SlipperySlope]

1. If you are sincere

This is vastly simplified...

Zionism (orginally) was a political movement that called for the creation of a Jewish homeland in the historical land of Israel.

Since Israel has been created, Zionism has generally come to mean support for Israel.

Conversely, Anti-Zionism means opposition to the existence of the Israeli state.

[smtpgirl]

3. I am not anti zionist, but Bush

has it all wrong, it's ok for Israel to bomb Lebanon to get rid of the muslims, but it will back fire.

It is not ok for a country to totally destroy another like that.

Where is the Lebanese Army?

I guess they were hurt in the early '80's, very similar to Iraq's situation

Need to add this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army

WIKI Entry


South Lebanon Army
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.

The South Lebanon Army (SLA), also "South Lebanese Army," (Arabic: جيش لبنان الجنوبي‎; transliterated: Jaysh Lubnān al-Janūbiyy. Hebrew: צבא דרום לבנון, צד"ל; transliterated: Tzvá Dróm Levanón, Tzadál) was a Lebanese militia during the Lebanese Civil War. It collaborated with Israel during the Israeli military invasion of South Lebanon.

1 History
2 Collapse of the SLA
3 References
4 External links
5 Sources




History
The SLA was founded in 1976 by members of the Lebanese army based in the town of Marjayoun and Qlayaa. Its members were mainly Christians who resented the armed Palestinian factions which controlled South Lebanon at the time. Its stated aim was to protect Lebanese civilians from the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). The SLA was composed of Christians, Shiites and Druzes from the areas that it controlled. Having a common enemy in the PLO, the SLA and Israel quickly formed an alliance.

Its first leader was Major Saad Haddad. Following Haddad's death due to cancer in 1984, he was replaced as leader by Antoine Lahad (a retired lieutenant general).

The SLA was closely allied with Israel. It supported the Israelis by combatting the PLO in the strip of Southern Lebanon until the Israeli invasion to Lebanon in 1982. After that, SLA support for the Israelis was mainly by fighting against other Lebanese guerilla forces lead by Hezbollah until 2000 in the Security Zone, the area of the South kept under occupation after the partial Israeli withdrawal in 1985. In return, Israel supplied the organisation with arms, uniforms, and other logistical equipment.

In 1985 the SLA opened a detention center in Khiam. It was widely reported that torture occurred on a large scale in Khiam. Israel rejects any involvement, and claims that Khiam was the sole responsibility of the SLA: this has been contested by human rights organizations such as Amnesty International <1>. The SLA also applied a mandatory military service program where males over 18 living in the Security Zone were forced to serve a whole year as a military recruit. The SLA has constantly received fundings, weapons and logistics from Israel.

During the 1990s, Hezbollah carried out increasingly effective attacks on it, aided in later years by Lebanese army intelligence which had thoroughly penetrated the SLA. These changed circumstances led to a progressive loss of morale and members. By 2000, the SLA was reduced to 1,500 fighters as compared to 3,000 ten years earlier. In its peak during the early 1980s, the SLA was comprised of over 5,000 fighters.

Since there were only 1,000 to 1,200 Israeli troops in South Lebanon at one time <2>, the SLA carried out the bulk of Israel's fighting. The SLA also handled all civilian governmental operations in Israel's zone of control.


Collapse of the SLA
In May 2000, Israeli forces withdrew suddenly from the occupied zone without having given any warning to the SLA. As the withdrawal became obvious, civilians from the occupied zone overran SLA positions to return to their villages, while Hezbollah members quickly took control of the areas the SLA had previously controlled. The SLA, taken unawares by the Israeli withdrawal, collapsed in the face of the crowds and of Hezbollah's rapid advance.<1> Many members, some with their families, fled to Israel, while others gave themselves up to the Lebanese authorities, or were taken prisoner by Hezbollah who handed them over to the police. SLA members captured by Lebanon and Hezbollah were tried as collaborators with the enemy; the bulk of those found guilty received short prison terms, while a small number convicted of serious offences against civilians were sentenced to longer terms of hard labour.<2> Most members of the SLA who were suspected of such offences, however, had fled to Israel. A number of members were also granted asylum in European countries, mostly in Germany. Hezbollah was also criticised for preventing the arrest of some members of the SLA; it justified this on the grounds that it was in a position to know which of them had been passing information to the resistance.<3> Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak was criticised in Israel on the grounds that his decision to withdraw without consulting his SLA allies led to the rapidity and confusion of its collapse.

Although many SLA members and families eventually chose to return from Israel to Lebanon after Hezbollah promised they would not be harmed, others accepted Israel's offer of full citizenship and a financial package similar to that granted to new immigrants, and settled permanently in Israel. On April 6, 2006, the Israeli Knesset Finance Committee approved the payment of NIS 40,000 per family to SLA veterans to be paid over the course of seven years. <4>


References
^ Domont and Charrara, Le Hezbollah: un mouvement Islamo-nationaliste
^ Palmer-Harek, Judith, Hezbollah: the Changing Face of Terrorism, London, IB Tauris.
^ Palmer-Harek, Judith, Hezbollah: the Changing Face of Terrorism, London, IB Tauris.
^ Knesset approves grants to SLA families. Jerusalem Post: (6 April 2006). Retrieved on 2006-04-06.

External links
The quandary of an SLA amnesty - The Daily Star, August 16, 2005

[Ignoramus]

24. Couldn't "anti-zionism" mean opposition to Israeli expansion?

I don't know if I should call myself anti-zionist or not. I think Israelis generally should not be displaced from their homes, but it gets sticky. Recent displacement of Palestinians by Israelis should be reversed, so that displaced Palestinians get their homes back. I'm not clear on what "recent" should mean, though.

I certainly have encountered others who say they are opposed to "zionism" but are not opposed to "the existence of the Israeli state".

Maybe it's appropriate to change the subject slightly. I'm not entirely sure what "anti-semitism" (in the anti-jewish sense) really means. The first time a friend told me was jewish, he complained to me about anti-semitism, but I had no idea how to identify who was jewish and who was not, so the concept hadn't even occured to me. Since that time, I have never really encountered anyone who I consider to have something like racial hatred for jews, the way that I've frequently encountered people who hate black people or other examples of racial hatred.

Bigotry is multi-layered. For example, there's older people I've met who make Archie Bunker like comments. Isn't that not really comparable to white supremecist? Or I encounter people making inappropriate generalizations about Israelis, but that's really more political, it seems to me. I've never encountered anyone making those kinds of remarks who seem to have actual hatred for people because they are jewish. What do you think?

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. My 13 year old son had a 13 year old girlfriend

whose mother FORBID her to EVER come to our home because we're Jewish. She HATES Jews. Her daughter walked home from school with my son on the last day of school and the mother called to see if she was here and when I said Yes, she went ballistic. She started screaming in the phone that she had forbidden her to ever step foot in THAT house and now she would be grounded! My son asked his girlfriend why? and she told him why...her mom hates Jews.

My son has been called Jew-Boy at school (he's the only Jewish child in the school) and he's been told, "Jews suck" by fellow students. When he first started school they marked him absent when he was off for the Jewish Holy Days of Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah knowing full well that was illegal to do so, but they did it anyway.

I guess it's one of those things you have to live through. Just like blacks know racism when they see and hear it, so do Jews know anti-semitism.

[smtpgirl]

I have never been treated like that, but

I am gay, I don't know that kind of treatment


This is for reply #30!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. It's sad.

When it happens to my son, it breaks my heart. This girlfriend...which is not a girlfriend anymore, btw, called my son and said her mom felt bad about what she had done and wanted my son to come over to their house for lunch. I asked him why?, if her mother hated him, he would be invited over for lunch and he said because she felt bad and wanted to meet him. So, STUPID me, I belived the story and dropped him off at her house. I told him if the woman says one mean thing to you call me and I'll be here immediately. I got a block away and my cell phone rang, it was my son and the woman had kicked my son out of the house! The girlfriend had made the whole story up about her mom wanting to meet him because SHE (the girlfriend) wanted to see my son. I had to stop my husband from ripping the woman apart he was so mad. Needless to say, they are no longer boyfriend/girlfriend.

This is what we live in 2006.

[smtpgirl]

38. I'm gay, so why do I live this shit in 2006????

Again, why can't people live together??

Timmy Thomas - Why can't we live together

Can I marry a woman? Why can't I let my partner have my benefits, just like common-law hetero-sexual couples can

[in_cog_ni_to]

43. I don't know why. It all so wrong.

The world is fucked up? Maybe?

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Try being a gay Jew.

:) and short, to boot!

[barb162]

34. Hi there!

I remember a thread you did months ago about the school and bullies re your son.

People can be real assholes!

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. barb! It's so nice to see you!

Yep, people can be assholes. It never stops.

[PsychoDad]

40. A shared understanding.

"My son has been called Jew-Boy at school (he's the only Jewish child in the school) and he's been told, "Jews suck" by fellow students. When he first started school they marked him absent when he was off for the Jewish Holy Days of Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah knowing full well that was illegal to do so, but they did it anyway."

Both my daughters are the only Muslims in their schools. My youngest in elementary school and my oldest in high school. Not only have they suffered the slings and insults of fellow students, but the school also gave us trouble about our holidays also. (that is until I had a talk about the subject to the respective principals)

Anyway, there is also a single Jewish Boy in the same High School, (yes 1 Muslim and 1 Jew in a high school... It's southern Indiana) Both are friends and have a shared understanding what it is like for each other. From this they have learned that they share more in common than not.

So I understand what it is you are saying.

Shalom/Salaam/Peace
May God bless you and your family

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. Thank you. My heart goes out to you and your daughters. As usual,

the children pay the price for the bigotry taught by the adults of the world. It's the children like your daughters, the Jewish friend, my son and his tolerant friends who will change this world some day. They do give me hope. It's the adults who don't.

This past school year was his best yet. The bigotry was seldom and he had a pretty good year for the first time since starting school.

My son was a Bar Mitzvah in May and his gift to his attending friends (ALL Christans) was a Kippa. The Monday following the Bar Mitzvah, all 14 friends wore their Kippas to school. :) My son thought it was so "cool" that they did that, but as his mom, it touched me beyond words. They FINALLY accept him and his religion. Not only did everyone he invited to his Bar Mitzvah attend, but then they wore the Kippas to school and my heart was happy. It's a small thing, but HUGE when looking at the big picture. The children, the children, the children are our hope for religious tolerance and hope for the future.

I wish the best for you and your daughters. May they find PEACE in knowing there's another family right next door, in Illinois, who accepts them for who they are and the religion they choose to practice.

Shalom/Salaam/Peace to you and yours.

in_cog_ni_to

[ronnykmarshall]

75. What's the difference

between a kippa and a yarmulka?

I live in West Hollywood and I see a lot of jews going to temple. I love the different types of kippas or yarmulkas the guys ware.

[timtom]

77. And God bless you and your family, as well!

By the way, wasn't it Itzhak Perlman that put together a symphony orchestra made up of Jews and Arabs, or Israeli's and Palestinians? This was in the past few years. It seemed to have worked out superbly.

[tomp]

50. simple answer

bomb your neighbor.

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. nice.

:eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

67. I don't think that's accurate.

I think that those who, like me, supports the continued existance of Israel but believes that it should withdraw to the Green Line, drop the right of "return" in favour of a genuine right of return for those who lived there until they were driven out, and accept the division of Jerusalem, are anti-Zionist.

Zionism is, I think, usually used to imply support for "Greater Israel" policies -Israeli expansionism, not just its existance..

[ikojo]

69. Actually Theodor Herzl would have accepted anywhere

in the world as a Jewish homeland.

http://www.jewfaq.org/israel.htm

Early Zionists were so desperate for a refuge at one point that they actually considered a proposal to create a Jewish homeland in Uganda. Alaska and Siberia were also discussed. But the only land that truly inspired Jewish people worldwide was our ancient homeland, at that time a part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire known as Palestine.

[treestar]

70. Question: couldn't one oppose the existence of this state

without being anti-Semitic? Does it have to mean you hate Jews to say that they should not have an artificial homeland created for them, especially seeing the trouble it has caused? And given that they have citizenship elsewhere, for the most part? If they don't, we can give them a pass into the US.

There are plenty of secular states. Leave the religion state crap to the Muslims. They will implode on their own in their medieval ignorance.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asthmaticeog]

2. I'm anti-Zionist, and here's why:

While I absolutely believe in the right of any group of people that wants to form a state to do so, or at least try to do so, I vigorously disapprove of the apparent "right" colonial Britain and the U.N. presumed they had to form a state for one group on land that another group already lived on.

Those who'd flame me for this, please note two things:

1) My disfavor of Zionism has nothing to do with any specific policies of Israel's government or of any group that represents the Palestinian people. While there's plenty I find disgusting about both, that's absolutely not the root of my objection.

2) I'm a Jew. I think that's important to mention, though it's a bugger that I should have to.

[smtpgirl]

4. Wow, we are on the same page

I totally agree, I was confirmed Episcopalian, agnostic at heart.

Religion separates, not bring people together.

[asthmaticeog]

5. Would it overload the ironymeter if I said "Amen?"

;)

[jeff30997]

7. "I'm a Jew. I think that's important to mention"

Of course it is important!If you didn't mention it there would be at least 10 posts
calling you an anti-semite.Shalom my friend!:thumbsup:

[smtpgirl]

8. Insight on post #3

The ME, the ME, the ME.

Too many people, especially religious people fighting for land!!!

Can I entice you in a game of RISK????

[GrpCaptMandrake]

27. I'm always up for a game of Risk!

Glad to see another person who understands the principals behind the game!

What a pity none of the genius Busheviks ever sat down with a 12 pack and a Risk board and played all night. Had they bothered to do so, Iraq might well not have happened.

Simplistic, but true.

:cheers:

[smtpgirl]

14. Don't you get it??

Our "world leaders" welcome this kind of friction between religion, class, caste, race, gender.


WHY ARE WE SUCCUMBING TO THIS BULLSHIT, WHERE ARE THE REAL ANSWERS FROM THE WORLD LEADERS, THEY ARE FEEDING BULLSHIT.

[jeff30997]

18. Divide et impera.Divide and rule...

The oldest trick in the political book.

[smtpgirl]

20. AMEN!!!!!

[asthmaticeog]

44. All the same...

I'm waiting for someone to call me "self-loathing." :eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

49. whenever I criticize the military I always include my vet status

so as to head off the "you hate the military" accusation that inevitably occurs, especially if one criticizes Wesley Clark.

[jonnyblitz]

45. damn good post and a very hard one to argue against. if

one believes in fairness and decency. Maybe some people don't realize there are many other Jews who agree with you. A few of them have written books on this, even. :thumbsup:

[The Stranger]

48. Holy clear thinking.

Scintillating!

[VelmaD]

55. What I have never understood...

is why they didn't give the Jewish state land after WWII in what had been German territory. Like...Bavaria.

[asthmaticeog]

57. My understanding of it is

that the most powerful (or perhaps merely the most vocal) faction of Zionists were insistent that any Jewish state be in the Holy Land. The usual "I could be wrong on that" caveat applies here, though, as it's been a loooooong time since I studied that stuff.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

6. "Zionist" is a poison pill

It's the word that Arabs use to describe Jews trying to live their lives where their lives happen to be. It provides justification for blowing up little Jewish babies at bus stops and pizza parlors in Israel. Mahmoud Amadinejad, that crazy little Iranian bastard, is an "anti-Zionist." For that sick freak, babies sucking at their mothers' breasts who happen to be doing so on a Jewish mother in Tel Aviv are part of the "Zionist Conspiracy To Rule The World."

You'll often catch John Birchers and Lyndon LaRouchies talking about "Zionist Bankers."

The formal "Zionism" was a late nineteenth century movement for a return of the Jewish People to their "original" homeland, which, depending on which part of the Bible you're reading, could be anywhere from Haifa and Jericho to Baghdad, Ur and Sumer. Therefore to be "anti-Zionist" is to be in disagreement with this self-same late 19th Century exercise in Social Darwinism.

The real inquiry, I think, is the more ugly moniker, i.e. "anti-Semite." This is a word legitimately used to describe Nazis, Klansmen, skinheads, a whole lot of "Christians," and many Popes. It does *not* however, automatically apply to anyone who dares criticize the policies of the State of Israel. Unfortunately, in the current 440 volt-charged atmosphere, anyone suggesting that Israel ought not be given carte blanche to slaughter Lebanese innocents with the same impunity with which we slaughter Iraqis is automatically an "anti-Semite."

For instance, if you suggest that the U.S. could afford all its citizens Universal Healthcare for the cost of what we give to Israel every year, you're an "anti-Semite." If you suggest that selling weapons of massive horror and death to Israel, who then uses them to kill civilians in another country is illegal, you're an anti-Semite. If you suggest that Hezbollah is wrong for rocketing innocent civilians in Israel, *but* also suggest Israel is wrong for bombing apartment complexes in Beirut that are full of innocent civilians, you're an anti-Semite.

The corrollary to this crap for Jewish people who share such views is "self-hating Jew."

Alan Dershowitz is one of the very best when it comes to this intellectually dishonest "anti-Semitic" garbage. For him, any waiter who ever brought his coffee without the cream and sugar is an anti-Semite. If the coffee happened to also be cold, that waiter is an outright Nazi.

[Bonobo]

9. You think Anti-Semitism does not exist?

[smtpgirl]

10. Go to the Wiki website

and find this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army

I for one am not anti-semite, but please read, this piece has nuances on why this happened in 2006!!!!!!!!!

[Bonobo]

13. Thank you for the link. I will read tomorrow. Goodnight.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

15. I *DO* think anti-Semitism exists

Read the post. It's clearly delineated. You must've missed the first few paragraphs.

Criticizing Israel, however, does not equate with "anti-Semitism," as Dershowitz and his ilk would have people believe. No nation, no, not even Israel or the U.S., should have carte blanche to do pre-meditated murder of civilians. And that's not anti-Semitism. It's hardcore ethics and morals.

On Edit: I misspelled Israel "Isreal." I apologize for the error, Mr. Dershowitz. :rofl:

Oh, God. That might be too nuanced. I'm not saying anyone here really *is* Alan Dershowitz.

[Bonobo]

16. I know criticizing Israel doesn't mean one is Anti-Semitic!

Anywhere but on DU for the last week, I would be the one in the room that is MOST critical of Israel.

But the corollary is that simply because one criticizes Israel doesn't mean they are NOT Anti-Semitic.

Correct? Some of the people here on DU really are Anti-Semitic. Can you even admit that?

[GrpCaptMandrake]

21. I can certainly admit that

some portion of the population in general is anti-Semitic (which, technically, also includes hatred of the genetic twins of the Jewish people, i.e. the Arabs).

I prefer, however, to judge for myself on a case-by-case basis. If a person criticizes Israel and *then* goes on to talk about "Christ-killers" or "banking conspiracies," then I'm fairly certain I'm looking at a racist.

Since, however, I'm not running around DU with my anti-Semitism detector, I can't say for certain that there are anti-Semites on DU.

Why, by the way, do you call on me to "even" admit that? You make it sound as though I'm somehow denying something.

Did you even read my post?

By the way, your corollary is flawed.

[Bonobo]

22. I withdraw the word "even". But...

Just because criticizing Israel doesn't make a prima facia case for Anti-Semitism, neither does it mean that the person is free of Anti-Semitism.

Also, it is intellectually dishonest for you to say that Arab-hating is a part of Anti-Semitism in this context or even from a broader historical perspective.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

26. Huh?

I'm intellectually dishonest? Me? Let me try a little harder to be more intellectually "honest," then.

Arab-hating gets its own pigeonhole, even though there's not a dime's worth of genetic difference between the two peoples?

I've got an idea. Why don't we coin a new term for hating someone because of their particular genetic/geographic/skin color make-up. Let's call those people "racist assholes."

Hate Jews because they're Jews? You're a racist asshole.

Hate Arabs because they're Arabs? You're a racist asshole.

Hate Irishmen because they're Irish? You're a racist asshole.

Hate Finns because they're Finnish? You're a racist asshole.

Hate Mexicans because they're Mexican? You're a racist asshole.

Hate people of African descent because they're black/brown/mocha/tan/notquitewhite? You're a racist asshole.

Hate Asians because they're Asian? You're a racist asshole.

See how easy that is? Now we don't have to fool with all the stupid taxonomical hang-ups.

Here's how it works: Mahmoud Amadinejad hates Jewish babies because they're Jewish. He's a racist asshole. Sheik Nasrallah is firing missiles into Israel because Jewish people live there. He's a racist asshole. Ehud Olmert is dropping thousands of tons of bombs on Lebanese children because they're Lebanese. He's a racist asshole.

But of course, universal affirmatives are only partially convertible. All racists are assholes. But only part of the class of assholes are racists.

[Bonobo]

28. Thanks, That was pretty fucking clear.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

29. Good

Now, how do we put it into practice?

I'll start.

First, we need a leader. Ours won't do. 'Cause he isn't one.

[smtpgirl]

23. Why do that???

can't we talk here, people are LAYING their beliefs out here and you don't like it.

I am Protestant, but I my ancestors from what I am told were Jewish, please let people speak!!!

This why the turn of events transpired, maybe if all could get the thoughts together, we could agreee to disagree!!

Religion separates, people bring humanity together!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bonobo]

25. Listen, I hate religion if you want to know...

Talk all you want. I am not trying to shut anyone up.

[smtpgirl]

19. I will side with your opinion

I think Israel has overstepped it's boundaries

[treestar]

73. No, the OP does not say that.

Straw man - attempt to shut down the discussion by flaming it up with black and white thinking.

Oh, yeah, and opposing the war in Iraq does not mean I support terrorists, either.

[radwriter0555]

11. I can't even figure out what a zionist IS. Never understood that whole

thing.

I don't need a fancy label to know that israel is wrong.

[Selatius]

12. That Israel is wrong in existing or going overboard in Lebanon by...

blowing up power plants, airports, seaports, and other civilian infrastructure?

[GrpCaptMandrake]

17. No, but

in asserting that Israel is wrong, you risk the wrath of a very well-developed cadre of people, even on the Left, who will insist that you so believe because you're "an anti-Semite."

This is part of the reason that discussions about peace in the Middle East are so hard to come by. They're pre-posioned by people who are conditioned to believe that critizing Israel is a racist act.

[smtpgirl]

31. Stupid but true, it's the game of RISK

I loved that game.

I had the original game with the wood widgets, I think it disappeared.

I am a woman, but that game was cool.

My cousin turned me on to that game in 1972. Risk premise, to take all of the land that you can in a dice roll, but the kicker was that you had to wage war first. Too bad that Siam had 2 blue wood widgets, the guy that had 12 red widgets in Greece could wipe you out!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate

[radwriter0555]

32. well fuck them, then. I know what I know. I know israel is wrong to be

killing people, just as the US is wrong to be killing people in iraq and everywhere else they're going to be heading.. to kill more people.

I don't need a label to know right from wrong.

I know killing people is wrong, and that doesn't make me a zionist or a racist or anti-semitic... and I still don't know what a zionist is!!!

Perhaps the people who need the labels and the boxes is because they're unable to think for themselves.

[smtpgirl]

35. EXACTLY

RISK, Bush, Jews, Muslims, Christians.

KILLING is wrong, but give the 12-13 centuries a place.

They waged holy wars. 1000 years ago people played the holy war game

[barb162]

33. That's because the word has been so incredibly distorted

over the years and there are so many definitions.
PS I think Israel is right; they are fighting for their survival against people who want them dead.

[smtpgirl]

41. So is Hezzbollah

The land game, what can I conquer

[smtpgirl]

42. So is Hezzbollah

The land game, what can I conquer

[radwriter0555]

54. hmmmm. israel wanted them dead first. who wins?

Tic-tac-toe.

[treestar]

72. IA, it is ridiculous to accuse every single person in Lebanon

or for that matter, every single Muslim, of "wanting them dead."

In the aggregate they may not want the nation of Israel to be there. But to accuse them all, and to say that any one of them deserve to die, of wanting to kill individual Israelis is as phony as claiming that because of 911, all the Muslims individually want all the individual Americans "dead."

It's just more attempt to distract the conversation by using guilt and self-pity.

[manic expression]

39. Yes

I am someone who opposes Zionism.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. I'm anti-nationalist.

Which would include Zionism, Arabism, Americanism, Black Nationalism, White Nationalism, or any of the other "isms" that provide an excuse for aggression and war.

[Lilith Velkor]

63. That automatically makes you a self hater/anti-Semite

I've been told this so many times I've worn out the p, f and t keys typing "pfft".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Zionist Like Feminist Is A Word That Has Been Ripped From It's Moorings

Being a femininist used to mean that you believe in political, economic, and social equality for women . It's opponents have turned it into a slur that means you believe men and women should use the same bathroom and, you want to force men and women to abandon traditional roles for themselves even if it's not their choice.

That's why so many women refuse to define themselve as feminists.

Same with Zionism. All it means is you believe Jews have a right to a homeland.

It now means so many other things.

[USA_1]

53. Anti Zionist Jews

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/



and there are many others


For the record, my own ancestry is Sephardic Jewish and I also oppose Zionism.

[reprehensor]

60. So there.

I'm a Lilienthal fan, myself.

http://alfredlilienthal.com

[mmonk]

56. I'm not. I'm not a Zionist either. I'm just me.

However, both sides in the debate on the present crisis in Lebanon use it as a strawdog.

[politicat]

58. I have no problem with Zionism as it was originally conceived.

In the late 19th century, the plan was to buy up land (Yes, BUY) in Palestine, creating a fiscal and social community that would eventually be able to organize itself into a state. The plan was going fine until WWII, when the Jewish community had to absorb a five-fold increase in their population as people fled Europe, and a second population leap as people left Europe after the Holocaust.

As the plan originally went, it was a perfect idea, and would have worked. I expect that Israel would have declared independence in about 1960 if WWII hadn't interfered. But it did, and the fledging United Nations and NATO had to do something with the millions of people that had been displaced and abused by WWII, and their only real option was to let them settle as a single community near the largest Jewish community in the world.

The other problem is that the sheikhs who sold the original land to the early Zionists thought they were putting one over on the Jews. They believed they were selling them worthless desert and swamp. When the early Zionists made over that land into something productive, the sheikhs decided they'd been had and there was some extortionary behavior (on both sides) back and forth over the price of the land. (A good courts system would have resolved this issue, but Palestine didn't have one at the time.) So that is the heart of the resentment -- both groups basically cheated each other, and rather than admit their mistakes and move on, they've embarked on almost a century of resentment and recriminations.

By 1967, Israel was again facing population pressures and land scarcity, so I believe that is the major reason behind the 7 Days' War. I really believe that religion is only the surface reason anymore; the real motivations for the battles between the two native groups in the area is acreage and water. Every war in history has been fought over these, so nothing new here.

My solution is unpopular, but may be the only one possible - Jerusalem turned into a theme park (open 9 am to 9 pm, 365 days a year; entry fee of $37.50 and season passes are available; no weapons, no outside food; let the UN run it and put the management up to the major theme parks on a 3 year contract basis.) Then the mom-ruling needs to come into play. By coin toss, one side gets to divide the country nearly as equitably as possible. Then the other side gets to pick which side they want. After 6 months in which household swaps are arranged, everybody gets on their side of the line and stays there. If individuals don't like it, there's plenty of room in West Texas, and really, the land doesn't look all that different. (As far as I'm concerned, one scrap of desert is the same as the next - the Holy Land is a state of mind, not a place.)

The problem is population pressure. Until both sides figure out that 6 kids are not the solution for everything, and until they realize that they have to live in the rest of the world and that yes, the water is not infinite... there's gonna be problems. There's six billion of us. We've all got to get over the idea that we can spread out and have as much as we want.

[reprehensor]

59. I would say that I am.

My understanding of what it means to be an anti-Zionist is informed by the writing of anti-Zionist Jews, like Alfred M. Lilienthal;

Alfred M. Lilienthal

Lilienthal was born in 1913 in New York City. He is a graduate of Cornell University and Columbia Law School. As an American of Jewish faith, he first became interested in the Middle East while in the U.S. military and stationed in Egypt during World War II. In 1949, his article, "Israel's Flag Is Not Mine," published in the Reader's Digest, caused great controversy because of its anti-Zionist position. Despite condemnation from many influential quarters, Lilienthal has remained in the forefront of the struggle for a balanced U.S. policy not dictated by favoritism toward Israel. He continues today, after over a half century of effort, to defend the Palestinian people and to call repeatedly for an independent State of Palestine.

...Zionism has often been innocently defined as a movement to provide a homeland and refuge for Jews in need of safety in the land where their ancestors lived in ancient times. That definition only sounds good until we realize that almost a million Palestinian Arabs already living there had to be displaced and made homeless in the process. Incredibly, even today so many years later, many Americans and others worldwide still believe that it was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” It was not!... - What Price Israel?

...The November 10, 1975, U.N. resolution equated Zionism with racism and racial discrimination, and for the first time placed the genesis of the continuing Middle East struggle squarely before a startled American public. But fervent supporters of Israel, Christians as well as Jews, reacted with unprecedented furor to the overwhelming U.N. censure and stirred the media to direct an equally unprecedented onslaught against the U.N., the Arab states, and the Third World bloc. The supporters of the resolution were denigrated with the charge "emulators of Hitler." The pro-Israel American public was led to believe that this was indeed but another attack on Jews and Judaism, a Nazi renaissance. The pertinency of this U.N. action to the continuing Arab rejection of the State of Israel was totally covered over by whipped-up emotionalism... - The Zionist Connection II: What Price Peace?

...My one and only homeland is America. I am proud of my belief in the age-old Judaic concept of one God in Heaven and one Humanity here below. But my faith does not pull me into a feeling of narrowly tribal kinship with all others who worship God in this way. Whenever I read of Americans singing the Hatikvah, Israel's national anthem, or see youth groups raising Israel's flag beside the Stars and Stripes. I am outraged. For Israel's flag and anthem are symbols of a foreign state; ,they are not mine.

The most powerful weapon which Zionism is using on Americans of Jewish faith is its outward cloak of humanitarianism. The argument runs that Israel was set up primarily as a haven for the persecuted, the homeless, so why should we be critical?

Mother, the truth is that Israel was not created primarily for displaced persons. Instead, Article 3 of its proposed constitution proclaims it to be "the national home of the Jewish people." Meaning, Mother, you and me! As early as 1917 Dr. Chaim Weizmann, Israel's first president, was proclaiming: "We have never based the Zionist Movement on Jewish suffering in Russia or any other land. These sufferings have never been the mainspring of Zionism."

Rabbi Abba H. Silver, a recent head of the American Zionists, declared: "We must stand foursquare on the proposition that Zionism is not an immigration or a refugee movement, but a movement to rebuild the Jewish State for the Jewish nation in the land of Israel."... - Israel's Flag Is Not Mine.

Of course, this resolution has been rescinded, but it did happen, and was a shock.

I highly recommend Lilienthal's book, "The Zionist Connection II: What Price Peace?"

And although Norman Finkelstein does not call himself anti-Zionist, his writing is just that. This excerpt is from a debate he had with Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami on Democracy Now!

Norman Finkelstein

...Well, I agree with the statement that there is very little dispute nowadays amongst serious historians and rational people about the facts. There is pretty much a consensus on what happened during what you can call the foundational period, from the first Zionist settlements at the end of the 19th century 'til 1948. There, there is pretty much of a consensus. And I think Mr. Ben-Ami, in his first 50 pages, accurately renders what that consensus is...

...So where do we disagree? I think where we disagree is on responsibility. It's not just a question of moral responsibility. It's not simply a question of tragedy or sadness. It's a question of law, international law. What are your obligations if you are a member state of the United Nations, for example? Now, under international law, refugees are entitled to return to their homes once the battlefield conflict has died down. And Mr. Ben-Ami was absolutely correct. He said the key moment comes in the Israel-Palestine conflict, not when the Palestinians are expelled, but when, after the war, Israel refused to allow the Palestinians back.

At that point, he says, here is a problem, or a problem arises, and the way he puts the problem is we have two conflicting issues. On the one hand, there is what he calls the Zionist ethos. They want a Jewish state. On the other hand, you have the Palestinian refugees, who have a right to return. And for Mr. Ben-Ami, this is an intractable conflict: the Zionist ethos versus the refugees.

But there is a third factor. The factor is international law. And under international law, the Palestinians have the right to return. Now, I am not arguing now for a right of return. I acknowledge it's a complicated problem. But we have to be honest about the rights and the wrongs and the question of rights and wrongs. It was a wrong inflicted on the Palestinians, and it was their right, their right. This is not a tragedy, and this is not about morals. It's about legal rights. Their right to return was denied. How do you resolve that problem? I admit, it's difficult. But we have to be clear about rights and wrongs, because that's going to become, in my opinion, the main problem when we come to Camp David. Whose rights were being denied during the Camp David/Taba negotiations?... - Finkelstein v. Ben-Ami

[Marie26]

61. Someone who opposes

the creation of the state of Israel. I am not one.

[mmonk]

64. Zionism isn't up to me. Therefore, I'm neither for or against it.

It's up for the people involved to decide. I thought it had already been decided by those that needed to personally.

[porphyrian]

65. I don't mind that they exist...

...but I think any extremism based on religion is obnoxious at least and totally unacceptable at worst. Of course, I have the luxury of not being an Arab who was displaced in the creation of Israel.

[scholarsOrAcademics]

66. some citizens of the State of Jews,Israel, are also humanists

recently, I cracked the barrier of seeing Israel as Zionist.The Bauman book on the Holocaust does not find it useful to use the zionist shorthand. It is not a simple reductionist position that is helpful. If Palestineans could get into the details of Israel political parties and society maybe they could gain some support from cohorts in Israel.

[Codeine]

68. It doesn't matter.

Anti-Zionist or not, Israel is a done deal, it's there -- a legal creation of the international community, and it's not going anywhere no matter how just or unjust you may feel it's creation was. Much of the creation of the US was unjust, but I've no intention of giving it up and leaving, and neither do the Israelis.

Now the goal is to find the right set of circumstances that can keep peace in the region surrounding Israel. Get the Palestinians viable farmland, decent water sources, and a transportation network that's not cut up by Israeli checkpoints. Impress on the international economic community the need for investment in small industries in Palestine so people can have honest jobs and a normal life. Find ways to undercut the influence of the Islamic radicals in Palestine and elsewhere in the region.

In short, people need to give up the past; stop crying about Zionism, the British Mandate, colonialism, Arafat, Ben-Gurion, the Six-Day Way, The Yom Kippur War, etc. All that shit's done and over and no amount of arguing is going to change waht already happened. Look forward and find solutions, not backward in a search for arguments.

[porphyrian]

71. I'm anti-fundamentalist. That includes a subset of Zionists...

...as well as members of nearly every other religion.

[David Ippolito]

74. Guess you might say... I'm a John Lennon-ist

Imagine there's no countries.
It isn't hard to do.
Nothing to kill or die for.
And, no religion, too.

Imagine all the people
Living life n Peace.

You may say i'm a dreamer.
But, I'm not the only one.
I hope someday you will join us,
And the world will live as one.

http://www.thatguitarman.com

David