Just how portable are the launchers for these Iranian missiles?

[TheMadMonk]

I've just heard on the radio how the IDF backtracks the flightpath of the missile and targets that location.

Hizbollah(sp?) launxches from locations amongst civilians.

If these launchers are at all mobile, (or disposable) then it's a given that the one place the "shooters" won't be when the IDF rockets/bombs arrive is where the Hizbollah rocket was launched from.

So if the above is true then:

I am sure that the IDF understands this too.

Thus Isreal is deliberately targetting civilians with very little expectation of hitting the target they claim to be aiming at. Essentially all they are doing is punnishing civilians for not stopping heavily armed geurillas from moving into the neighbourhood, fireing off a rocket and leaving.

[GregD]

1. Just looking at them on CNN

It looks like a smallish flatbed truck with a device that contains multiple tubes. This one was also draped with camo netting. Tilt, aim, fire, drive like crazy to a new spot.

[Ian David]

2. I think I saw a TV commercial for those during The Superbowl. ..

The Cadillac Escalade Jihad Package.

[guinivere]

14. LOL! Comes with a bangin 6cd stereo.

Break through!

[Warpy]

5. Right, they're used all over the world

Even the US uses something similar, although we have spiffier vehicles than they do.

[TheMadMonk]

6. Thus Israel knows that it is targeting no one but civillians...

...and goes ahead and does it anyway.

This is absolutely no different to what they claim(ed) that the PLO, Hizbollah, and Hamas are/were be guilty of.


Beyond that the Geurilla leaders know that every IDF bomb/missile will swell their own rank.

Thus Israel is at best stupidly playing into Hizbollah hands, and at worst is deliberately pushing new recruits into Hizbollah's arms to give themselves an excuse to escalate further.

[SlipperySlope]

3. All about detection and timing...

Say you can detect the missile and fire back within two minutes.

Say you also know that the missle launcher can move at 30 mph after firing.

In two minutes, that means the launcher could move one mile.

Therefore, destroy everything in a one mile radius around the launch site and you'll be fine.

[frylock]

4. yep..

lather, rinse, repeat.

[TheMadMonk]

7. The only way to achieve that level of "land clearing" is nukes.

Or at best a daisy cutter. (which you won't get on target in two mins.)

[SlipperySlope]

9. N/T

[TahitiNut]

8. Something on the size/scale of this ...

... or this ...



The launchers could be easily adapted to a trailer.

[Solo_in_MD]

10. More and less that you said...

Back tracking radars have been around since the early 70s, though many civilians were unaware they existed. Coupled with overhead imagery, it can give you nearly real time data as to shooting location. Sometimes they are catching the crews in action and destroying them, other times its too late. The IDF is using UAVs and high altitude surveillance aircraft as well as radar. One wonders what they could do if they had a JSTARS.

Its also not just one kind of missile,reportedly Hezbollah has 10,000 rocket of varying in size, weight, range and warhead considerably. Most are carried via heavy truck. Notionally size equates to range. Launchers are quite distinctive and easily identified visually in multiple spectrum. Its not clear if the IDF is requiring visual ID prior to weapon release or not.

IDF has claimed to have destroyed at least one longer range rocket before it was launched.

Launching sites *normally* have some site prep done ahead of time. Not sure if Hezbollah did that or not. It does wonders for accuracy, which is not their strong suit.

By destroying roads and bridges, you stop the ability to shoot and scoot. By taking out comms and power you disrupt the ability to command more launches. There is some method to the IDF madness.

By shooting from within civilian areas the Hezbollah is doing a Geneva no-no, the human shields thing. The IDF in response has leafted heavily in southern Lebanon telling the people to leave lest they get hurt. Results are clearly mixed. The roads are not in the best of shape and anything vaguely military may be attacked. As a result the IDF is killing a civilians, though considering the ordinance being expended, its a surprisingly low number.

[leveymg]

11. Nice try. Assumes facts not in evidence ("Iranian missiles")

I'd like to see proof where the rockets were made. Katysushas shouldn't even be called "missiles". They're big bottle rockets with about 5 pounds of explosives in the nose.

Nothing more than an artillery shell inserted into an aluminum tube containing a solid rocket. Pretty crude. Can be cobbled together in any car repair shop, anywhere in the world. Even in Lebanon. Not very effective as a weapon of war.

Hezb'allah may have more sophisticated rockets, but again it hasn't been establised that they're made in Iran. Please cite evidence for your proposition.

When did you stop beating YOUR wife, chief?

[TheMadMonk]

12. Oh spank me. I forgot to put the qoutes in. "Iranian"

Happy now? </sark> Or should I have left the word out entirely.

Whatever the ultimate source of these missiles, the result is the same.

Indeed for what you describe. The launch platform could be a bloody donkey.

Solo: I think the casualties are so low, because the civies upon hearing the hiss of a nearby launch either hunker down if they can, or run like Shaitan Himself was on their heels. (And in their minds He, Israel, is.)

[leveymg]

13. I'd run.

Israeli Counter-battery fire is dead accurate.

[Sweet Pea]

15. Katyusha rockets

"They're big bottle rockets with about 5 pounds of explosives in the nose."

Try again, sport:

180 cm (5.9 ft) long, 13.2 cm (5.2 in) in diameter and weighed 42 kg (92 lb). It was propelled by a solid nitrocellulose-based propellant of tubular shape, arranged in a steel-case rocket engine with a single central nozzle at the bottom end. The rocket was stabilised by cruciform fins of pressed steel sheet. The explosive warhead, either fragmentation, high explosive or shaped-charge, weighed around 22 kg (48 lb). Smaller version RS-82 was also used. The range of the rockets was about 5.4 km (3.4 mi).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

[Solo_in_MD]

18. Its not just Katyushas and there are indeed Iranian missiles in use

There are other rockets being fired, based solely on range. Saw a graphic somewhere that showed them. It is rumored that Hezbullah may have some that can reach Tel Aviv. They do exist, the question is if Hezbullah has them.

The Qassam rocket that is being made in Gaza is indeed a glorified bottle rocket, the Katyusha is military grade ordinance

Don't forget the two ships that were hit by C-802 missiles. The Israeli gunboat took four casualties and the Egyptian freighter sank. That was not rocket fire, those were missiles. Iran is a known source for those, Syria is not. There is not evidence that China is supplying Hezbullah.

[leveymg]

22. How do we know that it was a C-802?

Has Israel released its data records that might allow independent confirmation of the type of ordinance used? Not that I'm aware of.

There are plenty of ASMs available on the international black market. If Iran supplied the particular missiles that hit those two ships, it was likely provided to Hezb'Allah through a broker middle-man. That's the way the game usually gets played.

As far as I'm aware, Iran produces its own version of the Silkworm and Exocet, but not the C-802. Do you have a source for that?

[Solo_in_MD]

27. Janes

but its also here http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm

The primary source of the 802 is indeed Israel, but it has been universally accepted. Per the reports, 2 were fired. One hit the gunboat with 4 casualties, the other sunk an Egyptian crewed freighter. If it was a Silkworm the ship would have gone down immediately since it has a much larger warhead. Occam's Razor would agree with the conclusion of 802s.

The very existence of that kind of ordinance must have had a substantive impact on Israeli military thinking. The naval vessels now have their phalanx system hot, which will make for impact on air operations. It was that time that Israel announced the setting up of Patriot and equivalent defensive system around their cities. While ineffective against Katyusha, they would be effective against 802s. Its also means that the Israeli target list changed. Shortly after the 802s were launched, the Lebanese coastal radar installations were destroyed (eliminate targeting data for future missile attacks). Nasrallah has been talking about more surprise weapons and there are land attack variants of the 802. However nothing yet. There have been reports of larger rockets, again only from Israeli sources, but some of the confirm rocket strikes were well beyond the range of a standard Katyusha.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/mrl-iran-specs.htm is a good pictorial of Iran rocket artillery for background.

[leveymg]

28. Thanks for that info

I had read that Iran produces its own versions of the Silworm and Exocet, but now I see it also manufacturers an advanced C-802.

One can only speculate how many hundreds of these things they have hidden in caves, covered by cottage roofs, and mounted on trucks near the Straits of Hormuz? I am more convinced than ever that a war with Iran would be a catastrophre.

[Solo_in_MD]

30. The C-802 is a Harpoon class weapon

One hit won't sink most ships and their targeting sensor is fairly crude. Easily decoyed and shot down. However, if you get enough of them in the air...

Like the Sikworm, reports are mixed if the Iranians are building them or just bought them from China. Not all that sophisticated, but Iran has been embargoed for some time.

[leveymg]

21. Not a big difference.

Make that a steel tube rather than alumuminum -- easier to fabricate -- 48 pound warhead rather than 5.

I've seen a range of 17 miles quoted rather than 3 miles. Wikipedia often isn't very accurate - nor are Katyusha rockets.

Anyway, the point remains that these things are crude devices that can be made anywhere by just about anyone, and they aren't militarily effective unless fired off in large numbers simultaneously.

[porphyrian]

16. Hezbollah is just as guilty as Israel here.

They know that the IDF will be shooting into civilian populations, and exactly when and where it will happen, yet they allow those civilians to be murdered so that they can blame Israel for it. If they were real men and women, they'd never endanger civilians intentionally. Either side.

[TheMadMonk]

20. I agree that there is guilt on both sides.

More than enough to go around.

I do note however, that Israel seems perfectly happy to take aim at targets which are neither Hizbollah strongholds nor potentially threatening launch sites.

And I also note that Israel appears to have a long standing policy of setting its own citizens up as targets (albeit heavily protected ones) for the purpose of advancing their own agenda.

There is no great difference between this policy and the Hizbollah one of inviting retaliatory fire down on the heads of its own people. And either way, it is the poor non-Israelis, who do most of the suffering.

Just how many dead children (who have done nothing and have no voice whatsoever in policy setting) is an equitable price to extract for the return of the captured soldiers.

If I were one of these soldiers I would spit in the eye (at ther very least) of any Prime Minister who tried to make political points by pinning a medal on my chest, if I knew that even a single child had been hurt in my recovery.

[porphyrian]

23. The strategy you mention is adopted by both sides...

...neither of which represents the opinions of the majority of the citizenry. The only difference I'm aware of is that the Palestinians have less to lose than the Israelis, so they could be more likely to accept extreme behavior on their behalf.

Another thing you may not be considering, largely because there is very little press about it, is the large number of Israeli troops who do refuse orders to shoot. Apparently it happens quite often. Like I said, most Israelis do not support the right-wing tactics of their government.

[MercutioATC]

17. Don't worry, there's no incorrect spelling for "Hezbollah"...

...some say "Hezbollah", some say "Hizbollah", some say "Hizbullah", aome say "Hizbu'llah"...


...I believe even "H2v43v8va3t'9vcnv" is technically correct...


:)

[Solo_in_MD]

19. I wish the mods would update the spell checker with one variant

so we could all use it. Same with Hamas, Katyusha, IAF, IAD, and a few others

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Soviet missles.

They can be driven around on trucks.

[Tesha]

25. Here's one style of Katyusha launcher...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Yup.

Sometimes you see old news reels of them from the Eastern Front. They were pretty damn impressive when launched simultaneously.

[shadowknows69]

29. You've seen the "Made in Iran" stickers too?

I thought I was the only one who could spot them amongst the debris that was once a suburb.