new du group- former gifted children?

[mopinko]

i know there are lots and lots folks at du who are what the pinheads call gifted and talented. at the risk of sounding like a braggart, i am, at the age of 51, finally realizing that my membership in this group has kinda screwed up my life. living among "normal" people (no offense intended) can be extremely difficult. most of us wish we were just normal folks. most of us deny our gifts, and consequently make a lot of bad decisions in life. gifted and successful go together a lot less frequently than most folks would think. gifted and miserable, or troubled, probably outweighs that by a lot.
i think it would be great if there was a du group where we could hang out with our peers.
anybody?

[reichstag911]

1. Agreed.

The world rewards superficially affable mediocrities -- the more well-connected, the better, of course -- over those who see and speak clearly...and it infuriates me. Always has, always will.

[Prophet 451]

4. *applauds*

The memory of my childhood would like to hug you for what you just said.

I can remember being told I was "gifted". I can remember being told that teh sky was teh limit. It was all a lie because society today no longer rewards the genius (I say that without any trace of snobbery, it's simply a description), it no longer rewards the free-thinker or teh maverick, it rewards the mediocre, the safe and dependable. You have to put up with being resented your whole life, called an "elitist" because you don't think the world should be run by mediocrities dumber than a box of rocks and as a child, you get physically attacked too.

Often, we have problems with personal relationships as well. We often end up with minor mental illnesses (depression most often) too. Theories vary as to why but the most common one is that our minds are set up for analytical thought and therefore, we have problems with the irrationality of emotion (my own theory is that this is why so many of us end up in computing or hard sciences. If something goes wrong, it's not because teh PC doesn't like you or resents your intellect or is having a bad day, it's because you got something wrong and you can go through and fix it).

There was a time, when my own depression was at it's worst (I was unmedicated at the time which didn't help) when I wept and wailed and would have given absolutely anything to be "normal". To be happy with the small life of the masses, to believe what I was told, to not see the complexity of everything.

[conflictgirl]

66. You hit the nail on the head

I too was a "gifted" kid, and the hardest part for me is that real life has matched up to the endless possibilities I was told would be open to me because of my intellect. I think it is very common for people who work with gifted children to present this idea that gifted kids are guaranteed success, and it can be kind of a rude awakening to discover that being gifted doesn't give a person any more opportunities than anyone else. Sometimes being gifted can even be a disadvantage because, as you said, society rewards the mediocre. Being very intelligent just makes a person appear strange or like an outcast or misfit.

I now am in an interesting position because my oldest child is labeled gifted as well, and I see him struggling with so many of the same issues. He struggles a lot with knowing how to relate to other kids, especially the "normal" kids. He's in a school program for gifted/talented kids now and it's been really good for him because now he's just one of the kids, instead of being the one "weird" kid for being different. I struggled a lot with depression and I see him starting to go through it too. It makes me sad. :(

In many ways I see gifted education as a form of special education, because gifted kids aren't able to fit in with mainstream kids in many cases and they need different education taught at a different pace. There have honestly been many times I wished that I were just average, and I didn't wish for my kids to be gifted. It seems like life looks a lot easier when you don't have the inclination to analyze or question everything.

[Hekate]

159. "Tracking" was the best thing ever done for bright kids

My husband and I were lucky to go through public school in the 1950s and 1960s in places (he in NY City and I on Oahu) that believed in vigorous and early tracking. Kids were tested and then placed in classrooms with other kids of similar ability. The societal impetus was the launch of Sputnik and the start of the Space Race -- the US perceived a need to train a generation of scientists to compete with the Soviet Union.

In my school there were 3 college prep tracks and 3 vocational ed tracks, plus an additional one at the top for AP and one at the bottom for remedial education. We both went through school feeling that our classwork was challenging, not easy, and that we were up against lots of kids who were smarter. As adults we met in Mensa, and yet we both grew up knowing we were not the smartest or most talented kid in class, not by a long shot. (Just as an aside, the kids in Voc. Ed. were actually learning skills they could use to get paying jobs after high school. It was not a dumping ground, not in my school anyway.)

When my daughter was in first grade (about 1981) her teacher complained to me that she would finish her worksheets before everyone else and then wander around the classroom. I asked her what kind of work they were doing, and whether my daughter could be given something that would hold her interest. The teacher was insulted at the thought my kid could be bored.

I went to the principal to ask which teacher had the "track" for bright kids -- and was informed in no uncertain terms that the world had changed. Separating bright kids from their peers, we were now to understand, was a way to give them a swelled head and an outsize ego. They would think they were special and better than others.

Well, my daughter ended up feeling so "special" in a bad way that she left school in 10th grade and didn't start college until she was 27. At 30 she's doing great in college courses, supporting a child, working on a future —- but it still infuriates me beyond words.

The GATE (Gifted and Talented Education) program here was a once-a-week-for-one-hour thing. The kids in my daughter's elementary school would be pulled out of regular classes for this hour -- thus making sure all the other kids knew of this "special privilege" -- which would also make them miss part of the curriculum, such as math.

How much better it would be to simply put these kids together for the whole week, the whole year, and challenge them appropriately. What I read in the media and hear from people who should know better is an assumption that extremely bright kids will make it all on their own. They won't -- they are kids, and they need adults to teach them and guide them.

They also need to be with kids like themselves —- kids whose minds work differently from the norm -— so they can struggle and compete like everyone else, and have a sense of success as well. They need adults and other kids who appreciate them for who they are.

When you clear away all the BS, American culture is very anti-intellectual, and very punishing of people who are different. Sports is an acceptable means of standing out —- it’s terrific if you are a star at basketball or football —- but gods forbid you should mention excelling in calculus or English class.

I know from my own public school experiences that while junior high and high school can be socially painful, they can also provide appropriate challenges for the very bright -— IF the surrounding society and government (that would be taxes spent) decide that’s what they want and support it.

Never regret having been born with that something extra. Life will always be interesting, and that’s a good thing. Worldly success is subject to too many variables, including luck, to judge your life somehow a "failure" if you don’t become rich, famous, or formulate the Universal Theory of Everything.

Besides, one hazard many of the very bright face from childhood onward is a deep belief that they must perform perfectly, and that if they don’t they are somehow a failure. Notice I didn’t say "a belief that they are perfect" —- but "a belief that they must PERFORM perfectly" which can easily lead to believing they are failures when they can’t live up to that impossible ideal. As in the rest of this post, I speak from experience as well as observation.

I’ll stop now. In the time since I first saw this thread and then came back, it has grown beyond belief.

Hekate

[conflictgirl]

163. The g/t program has been amazing for my child

He was in mainstream kindergarten, and hated school. Already - in kindergarten!! He told his kindergarten teacher on a regular basis, regarding school, "I just don't know how much more I can take this." It's almost funny if it weren't so sad. He was reading before kindergarten and so when he was in kindergarten, the teacher was teaching the alphabet for the first couple months of the school year and my son was so bored. The teacher told him he could be in this "accelerated reader" program and work on that while the other kids were doing alphabet drills, but all that did was make my son feel like a freak in the eyes of the other kids. And he realized that the teacher was just trying to brush him off. He made ONE friend in his entire kindergarten year. The other kids were struggling to read board books and my son was reading Harry Potter.

In first grade, he got to go to a full-day gifted program. There are 20 kids in his class (normal around here is 28-30 - though I do believe that ALL kids would do better with the smaller class sizes). Now he is with other kids who are like him, with a teacher who understands the unique issues gifted kids face. He actually has a lot of friends now. He's being challenged appropriately and he loves school. Now my middle son is starting kindergarten this fall and he's reading almost as well as his brother. We are likely to be going down the same route again. I am SO grateful that the g/t program is there for him. The combination of depression (so common to gifted kids) and feeling bored and outcast from the other kids, I believe, could have led to an increased risk of suicide if that had continued. I also worry about the possibility that my son could stop trying someday, especially if anything happens to the g/t program. I became a major underachiever in high school, both because I was bored and because I wanted to downplay my intelligence. Now I'm 32 and finally back in college, when it's a whole lot harder now that I have a family.

You are absolutely right about how American society not only doesn't value intellectual ability, but it distrusts it and discourages it. There is a strong and growing anti-intellectual attitude in this country. Just look at the 2004 elections and why people said they voted for Bush - they would prefer a guy they'd like to have a beer with than someone they considered "too smart" like Kerry. :(

The pressure to perform perfectly is actually a common trait among gifted kids. Perfectionism is one of the common traits and it can be really negative if someone doesn't guide them. That's another one of the things I love about my son's g/t program - the teachers understand that perfectionism and work with them on it.

[laylah]

235. My beautimous and

bright daughter, "Kaghime", was in G&T classes from 1st - 3rd grades. It was quite the experience and thankfully, at the time, there were progressive thinking folks in the schools of Colorado (mid-80's). Unfortunately the program was axed when she hit mid-3rd. However, she continues to be very gifted and talented, IMNSHO.

Your last paragraph jumped out at me. My daughter is quite the perfectionist, to the point of making herself, and at times, others, miserable. Now she is a grown woman and guidance through that portion of her intelligence is not welcome by Mom, or anyone else, I would guess.

Jenn

[dogfacedboy]

272. Here in Chicago...

...the public schools were good when I attended them during the 60's. They tracked us, too. I was 'double promoted' twice (skipped the 4th and 7th grades). I attended a strict Catholic HS, and at first it was rough from a 'culture shock' standpoint. I was two tears younger than everyone else, and it was a male-only school. I know that my parents meant well by sending me to a HS with a proven and excellent track record, but I feel that I was actually stifled there. I also believe that there wasn't enough 'social development' support in that kind of high school environment.

[dysfunctional press]

298. i went to lutheran schools my whole life-

and there was no effort made to seek out nor accomodate "gifted" students- after all, god loves everyone equally, right...? had i been in public schools, i would most likely have been skipped ahead- instead i was pretty much told to "hold back" to be fair to the other kids.

[conflictgirl]

160. Oops, there's an error in my post...

I meant to say that real life has NOT matched up to the endless possibilities...

[smirkymonkey]

203. I feel the same way - always wondered where my sense of

alienation came from, but I was always put "ahead" or into special advanced classes. However, the other kids made fun of me, so I started to "dumb down" so that I would be more accepted amongst my peers. I still did relatively well academically, but by the time I was in college I was known as a "slacker" - minimal amount of work, rarely studied or went to class and could usually be found at the pub rather than the library (this is where my heavy drinking started.)

I am now a classic underacheiver who has struggeled with depression and substance abuse issues for most of my adult life. I do ok - have a decent job, etc. but I deeply unsatisfied with my life. I feel like I think everything through too much and come up with the notion that most of what goes on in daily life is just pointless. I think part of that is depression, but I believe my thinking is what gets me depressed in the first place.

[MrBenchley]

2. Would members be no longer children

or no longer gifted?

Sorry you had such trouble due to your gifts....I, too have had troubles in my life, but they were due to other circumstances; I've thought my abilities helped me through.

Might make for an interesting group.

[benddem]

3. yes average people

are more likely to be successful. People don't like to be around people who are lots smarter than they are...and somedays it is tough to be around people who just don't get anything.

[eugeneliberal]

56. I think you're right

that people don't like to be around people who are smarter than they are. My ex-husband is a good example. He used to tell me that I had no "common sense" and just the other day my daughter told me that he said "your mother's really smart, but she has no common sense." I guess it's a way for stupid people to make them feel better about themselves. Whether I have common sense or not, I've somehow managed to make my way through life for 47 years, and why would I want to be "common" anyway?

[mopinko]

81. some gifted people DON'T have common sense

we tease my older son sometimes about being the world's dumbest genius. he really is an absent minded professor type. the simplest things just don't occur to him sometimes.

[idgiehkt]

198. there's a line in a story

called "Everything that rises must converge", I think it's by Flannery O'Connor, where the protagonist is sitting there listening to his mother talk about how someone else's child has made a lot money, and he thinks to himself that he knows he is "too intelligent to ever make a lot of money". That line scared the hell out of me when I read it as an adolescent. Not saying that's true across the board, plenty of whip-smart people make alot of money, but I knew that I was different in a way that that character was talking about and that it would interfere with my life in a lot of unpleasant ways, which it has. Now in my late thirties, the struggles that I have getting along with people because of my different 'sight' have only increased and intensified, not abated.

5. It would be interesting to read this group

though I am not quite sure what kinds of people you would get.

[Zhade]

69. Lots of smug superiority, methinks.

So it WOULD be interesting to read.

[Maru Kitteh]

72. BINGO!

[Cronus Protagonist]

273. Yeah, it would be like a MENSA meeting

Lots of people discussing the latest puzzles and how quickly they do them.



Educate Your Local Freepers!
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[mopinko]

73. lots of

jealous, insecure, mean spirited onlookers i suppose. just like life.

[Hekate]

161. Bingo! -- no further comment --

:eyes:

Hekate

[LWolf]

201. Possibly the kind of person who might read this:

Gifted Grownups: The Mixed Blessings of Extraordinary Potential

by Marylou Kelly Streznewski

<snip from the front flap>

...Marylou Kelly Streznewski's unprecedented, 10-year study of 100 gifted adults, examines how being identified as a "smart kid" early on affects career choices, friendships, and romantic pairings later in life. Why do some talented and gifted people become Mozarts and Einsteins or corporate chieftains, while others drop out of school, struggle to hold down jobs, or turn to self-destructive behavior? What are the signs of giftedness, its pitfalls, and its promise?...

Some of the discussions in a "gifted" DU group might focus on the life-long interactions with people who consider "giftedness" to include "smug superiority." A quality which, I might add, is rampant in America, gifted or not.

Maybe the discussions might even include what constitutes "giftedness;" the history, use, misuse, value, or not, of IQ testing; multiple intelligences; the use and misuse, historically and currently, of intellect; the historical and current experience of the gifted in the larger world; family and relationship issues; and many other topics of interest to those in the group.

221. right

the place in society for gifted people would be interesting to find out about.

I don't really identify myself as "gifted", but a little different than the norm, and sometimes not quite understanding that.

[sundog]

6. i was also a very gifted child

i would like to be part of this group

[New Earth]

7. what exactly do you mean by gifted?

[mopinko]

10. not sure what it means

i think having scored at 95-99% on standard tests, having an iq of 130 is a kinda standard description for intellectual gift. but talented artists of any sort, athletes, whatever, would also "count".
there is quite a bit of overlap into the category of highly sensitive, also.
whoever feels like they identify with this group would be welcome. why not? i would certainly hope to have conversations with all sorts of people including the loved ones of gifted people, and others who have to put up with us.

[New Earth]

38. ok

well then i was one of those :hi:

i forget what ours was called in school, the "Academically Talented Program" or something. i actually always thought it was too clicky and elite. but i was in one for a few years. pfft.

[mopinko]

46. high school or grade school?

high school in general is clicky, and people hang on to as much elitism as they can muster. sometimes i think that gifted programs in regular schools are the worst of both worlds.

[Hekate]

162. The pull-out programs in grade school are not a good idea

> sometimes i think that gifted programs in regular schools
> are the worst of both worlds.

My daughter and the other kids felt singled out -- not in a good way -- by being pulled from their regular classrooms once a week for the GATE program.

Kids don't want to be different! They get teased and end up feeling defensive.

Hekate

[mopinko]

282. especially when the program are crap

my kids got junior great books. big whoop. the part they hated the most is that they did not get any credit of any kind. it did not even show up on their report cards. they felt like it was extra homework, for boring classes, for nothing. oh, and they were expected to be responsible for the homework that was assigned while they were gone. in the classes that they supposedly did not need. they were too smart to fall for it. they eventually got kicked out.

[deaniac21]

313. In my high school it was cliquey.

[psychopomp]

91. I scored in the 98th percentile in some HS aptitude test

and was a kid in one of those "gifted and talented" programs. I don't remember what we did in those sessions very well except for watching Sherlock Holmes mysteries and doing puzzles.

My brother-in-law probably is about forty IQ points below me but his net worth is about 200 times mine, all due to his own effort. Go figure.

[mopinko]

99. gifted and successful do not go together as often as you would

think. there are many traits that go along with those smarts that make it hard.

[Greyhound]

128. I've net seen any statistics, but in my experience, it is rare that

they go together. Single-minded perseverance seems to be the surest path to "success".

[stepnw1f]

209. Indeed...

I'm all over the place. Therefore, not very successful.

[stepnw1f]

210. self-delete

[Hekate]

164. There's a Dilbert cartoon along those lines

Made me LOL when I saw it... it's on the fridge somewhere...(rummages among the clippings)... IIRC, Scott Adams apparently joined Mensa briefly, then quit.

Here it is:

Man to Dilbert: You seem like a bright fellow. Have you considered joining Mensa?

Dilbert: Is that the group with the genius IQs?

Man: Precisely correct. I'm the president of the local chapter.

Dilbert: If we're so smart, why do we work here?

Man: Intelligence has much less practical application than you'd think.

Hekate
:rofl:

[Virginian]

153. If that's the criteria, it fits, I'm in.

In second grade, the teacher called my mother in to discuss my grades. I had just taken my first standardized test and (according to the stories later told by my mother) I had scored higher than any one at that school had ever scored.
The teacher wanted to know why my grades didn't match my test scores. I wasn't praised for my success on the test, I was criticized for my grades not being straight A's. I was called a daydreamer because I was frequently off in my own little world figuring out things for myself. There was no gifted program back in those days.

I used to love taking those tests. I thought of it as spending the day working puzzles. All through school, I was in the 99 percentile in most of the segments of the test. All through school, I kept getting notes on my report card saying I could do better. I didn't like school. I had friends, but I was only on the fringe of the popular kids.

I'm absent minded, but I do have common sense. I am frequently late for things because I get into my own world and forget about time.

In my job as a programmer, I worked odd hours because I needed to get into that "daydream" world in order to get my work done. When people interrupted me, I stayed on a social level and couldn't get things accomplished. I documented my work thoroughly as much for myself as for others.

I don't understand how it is possible to have a good memory and to also be so absent minded, but I am.

My cousin's child was tested in elementary school and had the option of going to a special school for the gifted. It was part of his local public school system. He has done so much better than I did. The teachers challenged him rather than being challenged by him. The program gave him and his classmates special adventures for being smart. In 6th grade, he spent a week or two at college summer program for the gifted. In high school, he was involved in an exchange student program with some students from the French Riviera. Now he's a rising senior at UVA and doing well. Schools have improved a lot since I was a student. He is going to be successful. He is inspired and has the drive.

If he had stayed in the local school, he would have had to dumb down to get along with his peers. His teachers may have found him difficult to keep occupied. He may have asked too many questions they couldn't answer. School, for him, may not have been interesting and he may have learned to dread going there. I think he would have lost his drive. He may have had problems getting along with the other kids and may have been in fights or been picked on.
I think gifted boys have a tougher time than gifted girls if they don't get the right learning environment.

[CanSocDem]

232. I am sure you have considered...

...a classic study in Educational Psychology, that ran an experiment to measure the effects of perception vs. reality in regard to IQ test scores.

They administered SB IQ tests to a classroom of 4th or 5th graders. The 'experimenters' graded the tests but gave the teacher doctored results. They raised the scores of those scoring low and lowered the scores of those scoring high.

A year or so later they re-tested and found a marked improvement in those originally scoring low.


The conclusion, as I recall, was that if your teacher thought you were smart, you probably were and conversely, if your teacher thought you were a low achiever, that too, would turn out correct.

[mopinko]

252. with what we know now about the genetic basis of

human behavior, i would have to wonder if that study is sound. there are an awful lot of studies out there from the age of skinnerism, tabula rasa, all that, that have been shown to be bunk.

[karlrschneider]

32. You ever hear of Aristotle? Socrates?

MORANS!

:evilgrin:

[Broken_Hero]

75. Princess BRIDE!

never bet with a Sicilian, when death is on the line!! buahahahahhaa...arrghh....*falls over dead*

[NoEvilTony]

8. Brings back bad memories...

Being in the "Gifted Program" in grade school only got me shunned, beat up and recess deprived by the same type of people who are running our country now. Being in that same program in Jr. High made me an outcast and a nerd. By the time I was in high school, I had given up on academics and just did enough to get by. I was grateful to get to college and realize that everyone was "gifted" in one way or another. I am not so sure that being branded as "Gifted" when you are nine years old does one any good.

Just my experience. I am anything but a failure in life, but in no way reached whatever potential I was told I had when I was in grade school. Worthless programs, in my opinion.

[havocmom]

64. Not just your experience. Not at all.

Fits me and many I know. Too many programs for 'gifted children' only succeeded in annoying them and making them go for being underachievers. Hey, that was better than being used as a tool by the suits that came in to 'observe'. I got their number by the time I was 10. Decided to enjoy the enrichment classes for my own reasons and not go into the chute they tried to force me through.

I be poor, but alert and sometimes even happy. Happy or depressed, at least I am aware. Wouldn't trade that for all the trinkets the suits dangle for the sheep to nibble at.

[Inspired]

200. Bad memories for me as well.

I was in a g/t program in grade school. One of my grade school teachers gave my parents advise AGAINST me joining this program but we went ahead with it. I had to change schools, make new friends - mainly new friends who were a lot more 'book smart' than I was.

It did nothing for my self esteem. In fact, I think it destroyed my self confidence. The expectations were high. I could never live up to them. I could talk an owl out of tree when it came to current events and politics at a very young age. I had zero interest in learning anything about science or math. Even those branded as gifted have different gifts.

I felt like a failure. I never measured up. It took me years to get over this...I don't know if I really ever have.

I wish we would have taken the advise of the teacher who warned us against it. She must have had an insight into my personality that my own parents didn't have.

[Finder]

9. Thankfully, things have changed...

since many of the parents of gifted children are educated today. For those of us who are baby boomers, many of our parents were lucky to have completed high school and we were labeled "know it alls" or "eggheads" even by our own families at times.

I know as a child I imagined myself as being an alien from an advanced society who was implanted in my human mother.lol

[mopinko]

13. my gifted kids have a tough row to hoe

i have 5. we have tried it all, one went to a magnet, i home schooled for 8 years. when the older 2 hit "gifted programs" at public school, they crashed. the younger 2 went to a good public school that had "gifted enrichment", which sucked. one struggled, and graduated with d's and f's, the other is the star of the school, but has still had a few teachers that really did not get it, and clashed badly.
it is better, and there are some good spots out there. but most of the gifted kids today are not getting what they need.

[October]

59. Currently home schooling...I "get" what you're saying

My son is off the charts, musically. He's a divergent thinker who doesn't do well on tests.

It's unreal, but it's a stigma to think outside the box!!!

Public school said "This might not be the place for him." There isn't a place for him...so we home school.

Hey, after only a year of study, he can play Bartok, Brahms, Mozart, etc. on the piano -- and is amazing with his electric guitar, too. That doesn't fit in with the "gifted" program, though...because in our district, all they do for the "gifted" kids is take them out of class for social studies.

Truly, WTF?

(We've done private, public and home schooling -- with our 2 children.)

[kdmorris]

196. We home school our 14 year old "Gifted" daughter too

We took her out of school in 1st grade, when they started talking about putting her on Ritalin. She would finish all her work in a few minutes and then couldn't sit there for an hour, waiting for the other kids. Unfortunely, at the time, she didn't understand that the other kids still needed time to do their own work, so she would usually start talking to them and "disrupt class".

She's doing great now. I know a lot of people in our neighborhood and at my work who think was are religious fundies, but I don't care anymore. At least we (tkmorris and I) saved her from a high school life like we had.

[October]

227. We home school our 16-year old, too

I know they were going down the "ritalin" path with our son, too. They don't want to hear that the child is "bored" but that was the truth.

We home school our daughter, too. She's 16 and pursuing ballet. She's at the studio 30 hours a week and spends summer studying with professional ballet dancers. During the school year, she takes AP courses online and attends our local community college for science lab classes, etc. She loves it and never wants to go back to high school. Her friends there freaked when she left and thought she'd become a weirdo. She's never been happier. She can take AP courses now that were denied her at our school. It's all so wrong.

Thanks for sharing! I think progressive types are the new trend in home schooling.

[mithnanthy]

24. I...as well

was tested and then treated as a gifted child...however A.D.D. (undiagnosed 50 years ago), made it hard for me to excell in school. Your "alien" story hit home. I was adopted and for most of my life I SERIOUSLY thought I was an alien experiment placed on Earth and that I was being watched and studied from afar! I even told the Adoption Agency of my alien "theory", when I was finally able to search for my real Mother. I was 50 when I learned the truth.. Born to a human Mother!!....what a relief! Yes, I felt very "different" indeed.

[mopinko]

74. so many gifted people have deficits in other areas

that is something that is a little better understood today. but it sure used to leave a lot of people with really, really no where to go.

[mithnanthy]

208. left with no place to go...

described it for me. School was a Hell on Earth....and always punishment waiting at home, for not achieving in school and for being "different" (they were Repubican Authoritrians). How could I NOT be different? I still celebrate my "freedom" to be who I am and to go at my own pace. There are many gifted people with A.D.D. and we find our own ways of doing things, that get us thru life. Good luck to you all!

[Raksha]

169. I bet there's a strong correlation between being gifted

and having ADD. Try reading through the replies on this thread with that in mind...it's absolutely amazing! This is the first I've posted on this thread, but some of these notes are like a verbal portrait of me.

[marions ghost]

295. there is

a correlation between intelligence, "gifted" and ADD. It's pretty well documented.

I really hate that word "gifted"--since it implies something that has been specially granted. Sometimes it's divisive in the school situation since it implies that others are lacking. Nobody should have to operate out of a sense of lack.

I also think ADD is a term that will one day be revised. It's erroneous to call it "attention deficit."
Perhaps attention inconsistent, or attention inappropriate...but deficit implies there's something missing when often it feels just the opposite, like there's too much to pay attention to.

[Raksha]

309. Well, I DON'T hate the word "gifted"

and I have tried to respond to your post twice already tonight to tell you exactly why I don't hate it, but both times I got a server error and couldn't post what I'd written.

I won't try to re-create the first post, which was quite a rant! The one thing I find really disturbing about the threads on this subject are all the people talking about how they suffered because they were labeled "gifted." Well, I WANT that label, I COVET that label, and even at this late date, many decades after it might have made a difference, I am LAYING CLAIM to that label and anyone who doesn't like it can kiss my ass!

And this is why: If you don't get labeled gifted and treated as gifted, you get labeled ANYWAY, and what you get labeled is WEIRD! Because it isn't the word that isolates the gifted individual from his or her peers. It's the REALITY: The ADD (if present), the hypersensitivity ("she's so high-strung"), the quirky way of looking at the world, the whole enchilada.

When it got to be my kids' turn, I made damn sure both of them got into the GATE program at their school. I have never regretted it, and neither have they. The one thing I do regret is that I never had the same opportunity myself. It would have been nice to some environment in my childhood and adolescence where I fitted in, instead of always being a square peg in a round hole.

[marions ghost]

314. OK

whatever. If you need a label, by all means, claim it for whatever practical purpose it serves. I'm just saying that I don't particularly like "gifted" used to mean intelligent or talented. The term has backfired and has come to mean snob and elitist. Not helpful IMO.

For me it's become not so important what anybody thinks. If somebody thinks I'm weird, fine. Usually these days I think they're weird. At some point in your life, you have to be what you are and stop fighting battles from childhood. Sometimes suffering through being a square peg, is necessary. You can find friends among the other square pegs.

Yes of course intelligent children should have more opportunities for realizing their potential at school. But even that is no guarantee of success in our society's terms, where it's all about how much money you can make. They can still be marginalized. It will be interesting to see whether the kids who are now being home-schooled, or getting special "gifted" classes in school, will turn out differently, and if they can use their talents more effectively in our society. Society may have to change first.

[bmcatt]

11. The term in vogue is actually "gifted adults"

And, yeah, I'm in that group as well. I've done some reading on the subject and one thing that seems to come clear is that giftedness is a matter of quality, not quantity. Hence, it's not something that it's possible to lose as you get older.

At the risk of seeming like a nay-sayer, I'd be ... hesitant ... about discussing true GT (gifted / talented) concerns in an open forum like this. My own experience is that much that makes GT people (both children and adults) different is unable to be understood by non-GTs. This tends to lead to *very* nasty discussions about elitism, etc., which just proves that most folks don't understand exactly what 98th (or higher) percentile actually means.

[mopinko]

14. i have my tongue in my cheek, but

seeing that term for the first time was a real d'oh moment for me.
whatever trolling would happen, i know it would be worth it to me to share my experiences with other who get it.

[Hekate]

165. Completely understand what you mean about hesitating...

There have been some good posts here, but it still feels like sticking my neck out to talk about my experiences. The opinion of the dominant culture is not kind. We'll see where it goes here at DU.

Hekate

[Sal316]

12. Hi. I'm Christian, and I'm a gifted child.

lol.

Condensed version of my life. Started school at 4, skipped 4th grade, graduated HS @ 16, college freshman at 16-17, completely screwed up in the head by 18, in the Navy by 19, straightened back out by 22. Now a successful R&D chemist with a coupla 'gifted' kids of my own.

In Michigan I was one of the guinea pigs for a program called 'Horizons Unlimited'. My 2nd grade teacher didn't believe in such a thing as a 'gifted child'. Had a real blow to the ego when we moved to AZ and I found out I wasn't the smartest person in the room.

gifted and successful go together a lot less frequently than most folks would think. gifted and miserable, or troubled, probably outweighs that by a lot.

I agree. I think it has to do with wanting to just be whatever 'normal' appears to be.

[mopinko]

15. trying to be normal-

worst decission of my life. trying to raise normal children- most painful thing i have ever done.
and it does run in the family. i have quite a family tree.

[Sal316]

22. I don't know where it came from.

Trying to teach my kids to both be proud of who they are and humble about their abilities has been enough to send me to the loony bin. I know how you feel!

[mopinko]

85. everybody wants their kids to be smart

little do they know.

[Greyhound]

305. Everybody thinks their kids are smart.

*Biting tongue* :kick:

[nosillies]

16. agreed

I was in gifted classes starting in 1st grade. My whole life I was torn between being proud to be smart and wanting to be normal. When I finally struck a balance, I became a lot happier. But just like school life was hell, I think being gifted makes work life hell, also.

That said, I try to be over the feeling sorry for myself bit now. I would love a group where we could support each other, share resources, etc., but I'd hate to see it get too whiney.

[reichstag911]

17. But whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

I like whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiniiiiiiiiiiiiiing! :evilgrin:

[nosillies]

30. Don't make me tape your mouth shut!!!

That's what I tell my baby when he whines! :rofl:

[reichstag911]

41. But...

...that's not niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

[mopinko]

55. maybe some of us could use a little tough love

from people who really understand us. :shrug:

[nosillies]

217. That's what I'm good at, baby.

My friends and family have grown to love it!;)

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LosinIt]

19. I have a lot of anger about my wasted 'gifts' because I was a girl

I was a National Merit Scholarship Commended Student in the mid 70s. That basically means if I had gotten one more question correct I would have been a National Merit Scholar and would have had a free ride to college. But the honor still gave me a foot in the door to most any mid-level college of my choosing. I didn't realize this at the time; no one in my family had ever been to college.

My guidance counselor dissuaded me from pursuing anything beyond the New York State public college system; I also had a Regents scholarship that covered tuition to a SUNY school. He thought that I should be a lab technician because I was very good in science. He convinced us that this was the best I could hope for, never explaining to me that the Letter of Commendation was such an honor. I found out later that a boy in the next class used his to get a free ride from Purdue. It was because I was a girl, He wanted us all to be nurses or lab techs. Bastard.

[mopinko]

20. the issues of gifted women

could fill a whole nother group.

[Nay]

40. It certainly could. As a gifted female who graduated from HS in '69,

I won't even try to tell you all the tales. My parents didn't even know what to do with me. Mom was depressive, and to Dad, well, I was "just a girl." In other words, I was there to grow up and get married off to someone who wanted to fuck me. I also was a National Merit Scholar, and absolutely nothing happened with this -- HS counselors were a joke. With an IQ of about 138, I could have done just about anything, but no one took any interest at all. I had to put myself through college (although I did have a full scholarship for the first 2 years) and I was simply treated as someone who would just go get married and have kids.

Being a highly sensitive person and very shy and socially inept didn't help me, as you can imagine. I went to a large well-respected university, changed my major half a dozen times, and, looking back, I would have given my left tit to have someone, anyone, give me the one piece of advice I needed to know -- "get into one of those sororities! It's who you know, not what you know! Get to know those frat boys and sorority girls, because their PARENTS are loaded, and if they like you, job opportunities will open before you like flowers!"

But I didn't know that. I thought if I worked hard, that's all I needed to do. Ha. So I floundered in several artsy jobs, had some false starts at learning other careers, and now, at age 56, I will retire from a boring admin job at a large boring corporation. My dismay at the intellectual vapidity of most of the population continues unabated, and I don't apologize for it. Stupid idiots are going to get us all killed.

[mopinko]

49. my father was not good for much, but

(of course, he was a twisted genius as well.) since he had missed his chance to achieve his dream, and he had 6 daughters and only one son, he told me often that i could be anything i wanted to be. "even a doctor", which was his dream. (that loss destroyed him.) although none of the kids in my family were anything but gifted, we were not all obviously so. 3 us were, and we were daddy's girls, to the detriment of our relationships with our siblings. but at least i knew. he gave me that.

[LosinIt]

175. I did join a Sorority, but I couldn't afford to live in the House

Hence..I was never part of the 'crowd'. And, I really joined because I was friends with girls I pledged under. When they were gone the next year I found that the girls I had pledged with were just not my style at all, so I went inactive.

One big mistake I made was not transferring on to get my bachelor's degree. I found out that if I went to Upstate Medical in Syracuse to finish as a Medical Technologist I would be taking classes during the week and working in the lab most weekends. My father was quite ill at the time, in and out of the hospital. I would not be able to visit him on the weekends that I had to work.

Kodak came to our Technical College and offered all (6) of the Chemical Technicians (I had switched majors by then) the grand sum of $10800. That was good money for just starting out in the world in 1976. So I moved to Rochester with my friends from class and Mother Kodak found us two brand new townhouses next to each other just 2 blocks away from Lake Ontario. We were all going to go to night school and finish our degrees right away. That didn't happen for most of us.

I don't regret being able to see my father a lot, we lost him the next year. But, with a bit of creativity perhaps I could have managed to sneak the 2 hour ride in some weekends before or after work and some weekdays.

[SharonAnn]

48. My storyis almost identical, except I was National Merit in 1963.

Very good at Math and Science (and English and Languages and ...)

So, I was told I could be a nurse or a math teacher or a lab tech.

Not a doctor, or research scientist, or ... and I believed it. So, I decided to major in Medical Technology, dropped out in my sophomore year, got a job at a bank in a clerical position, got the opportunity for computer programmer training at the bank so i took it.

Loved it, excelled at it, and built a career at it.

Finally went back to school to get my Bachelor's degree at 47 and the Admissions counselor said something like "maybe now you'll be able to take your gifts seriously, for the wonderful talents that they are." I was stunned! I'd never thought of it that way.

She explained that it's like someone who has a skill in sports, like Michael Jordan does in basketball. It takes work and practice, but a person with superb talents can perform at a level far above average, can do it consistently, and will be happy doing it.

[BigMcLargehuge]

21. I've already diagnosed your problem

Rather than dwelling among the "Normals" and having a shitty time, you should devote your remaining years to the service of ultimate evil. Screw trying to fit in, you should rule! Think Dr. No, think Mr. Han from Enter the Dragon, think insane former Chief Inspector Dreyfus from The Pink Panther Strikes Again! Make the pinheads serve your every whim in a hidden underground lair where you create doomsday weapons that you use to barter with the UN. Oversee the construction of a giant robot gorilla to dig Element X from the mine. Monologue over the loudspeakers about your greatness all day long. Think of a cool acronym for your gang, something that strikes fear into the pinheads who may try to oppose your beneficent absolute rule - C.H.A.O.S or M.O.G.A.L or F.I.S.T. or The Red Beret, something catchy and ominous, you know?

Screw the normals.

[Missy Vixen]

25. I'm a former gifted child as well

>Screw the normals.<

Interestingly enough, I never thought of myself as that exceptional.

Julie

[mopinko]

52. so many do not

a story i read that struck a cord- someone who, all through grade school, thought that she was perfectly normal, but that the other kids were just stupid. did not understand why the teachers insisted on teaching things that seemed as plain as day to her.
i had no idea why other kids couldn't spell, or had to memorize the rules of grammar. i just had a sense that told me these things. i thought everyone did.
i still don't know why everyone can't fix things. i can fix just about anything. just because.

[Missy Vixen]

131. I would see it on paper and know it was correct

>i just had a sense that told me these things.<

In some areas, I know that I have some insight. (Let's put it this way: We live in a small, Republican-dominated town. Lots of those Republicans, though, are now having second thoughts. I've had three different people approach me in the last month and say, "I heard that you can explain the CIA leak case to me," for instance. Believe me, H2O Man has forgotten more than I'll ever know about that particular issue, but I was a little amused to be thought of as the local font of information.) In other areas, I fail miserably. For instance, math is not my thing.

I hope that I will always have a thirst to learn.

Julie

[watrwefitinfor]

197. Striking a chord, mopinko.

In the first grade, in 1949, I had a teacher who was outraged that I could read; that I "read ahead" in Dick and Jane and finished in ten minutes what she had planned for a whole week's reading aloud experience. Her response was to isolate and humiliate me in front of the whole class.

In the second grade I had a wonderful teacher who taught me things that were more important than reading. After the first week or so, she gave me Readers Digest to read while the other kids caught up. (I didn't think to ask if she brought them from home for me, or crabbed them from the teachers' lounge, but she brought in a whole stack for me to choose from. Of course, I would have been better off with The Guardian or something, but at the time I took what I could get!) Later, she had me tutor some of the other children whenever I finished ahead of the class.

This was the last sensible teacher I had.

These conflicting treatments seem to have had alternating influence throughout my life. Please sign me up for the group.

Wat

[symbolman]

284. When I was four years old

I marched into the local library and asked the Librarian to give me the hardest book you could ever read, because I was smart and could read Anything.. and I was dead serious, I'd been reading at High School level or higher at age 4..

She gave me Kant, philosophy.. smart lady.. but I realized that while I could read the WORDS that the concepts were meaningless to me as a child, so I put the book back on the shelf and vowed to have many life experiences so that everything in that philosophy book would ring true when I was older, and I knew I'd have to be much older to completely comprehend Kant and others (my younger brother's middle name is Durant, after Will Durant, my father's favorite philosopher)..

I'm still waiting to read those books - tho I've studied Campbell, etc (one of the reasons I call myself Symbolman - here's my site on that, got a Hollywood award for my Symbolman snimation, which is being used to teach visual communication, and I've found it online stuck on the same page as Piccasso and Norman Rockwell, I boiled down one of the basic 7 stories of the universe into what someone termed "visual Esperanto" - something that could be read by just about anyone on the planet from an industrialized nation - http://www.symbolman.com ) and read voraciously (5 or 6 books at a time, not all at once, silly, just switching out as I read), I am saving Philosophy and Poetry for my old age, when the dendrites are running wild and free through my brain :) Dendrites may be the physical manifestation of "wisdom"..

I thought about taking Philosophy in college, but at that point in my life my philosophy was to drink and drug heavily - in the hopes of making myself stupid or "normal" :) - and to NOT get up before 11am - philosophy classes began at 9am :)

I'm one of the dumber ones in my family, my brother has tested out at 200 for IQ (tho he's an idiot socially, got beat up a lot, I used to ask him, "If you're so smart how come you get your ass kicked all the time?" - while I went out into the world and spent ten years barfighting, drinking, drugging, doing the whole Hemmingway/London thing, until that got boring..) --

But it all means diddly if there's NO motivation, that's the key - and surviving psychologically when all about seem blind, not being mean or callous, but seeing the spark of their soul instead, one that could be much brighter than mine, and much more important :)

It takes a sense of humor, even Einstein wanted to hang out with Charlie Chaplin and do slapstick, always loved that..

[mopinko]

58. btw

how was your conference?

[Missy Vixen]

127. Thank you so much for asking!

>how was your conference?<

It was great! The editor I met with asked for a partial of my book; that was the best I could have hoped for, and I was just thrilled. It's now sitting on her desk in New York, and I'm hoping they'll want to see the rest of the book and eventually publish it as well.

One thing's for sure, it was really great to meet you and Mr. Nixon ;-) for pizza that night. I was so happy to meet and talk with such great people, and I hope I'll see you again when I'm in the neighborhood!

Have I mentioned that I fell in love with Chicago?

Julie

[mopinko]

139. come back any time.

that's great that you got that far. see, you are smart.
glad you love my town. i do too. come back any time. anything in particular you loved?

[Missy Vixen]

144. Here's the list

>anything in particular you loved?<

The people. I met so many friendly and kind people in Chicago. I was amazed at how many men offered to help with my luggage, for instance, when I was getting on the Metra, in the airport, in the hotel, etcetera. This does not happen in Seattle. I loved the fact that I was walking down the street in a city of 13 million (?) and I was not in the least worried about my safety. The North Chicago chapter of the writer's guild I belong to (RWA) is full of really friendly, incredibly helpful women. I was amazed at how much there is to see and do there. I could stay there for a MONTH and not see it all. The city itself was stunning. I'm sure it also helped that the weather during my stay was very, very nice!

Last, but not least, though -- my heartthrob, Patrick Fitzgerald, lives in Chicago! :loveya:

Julie

[mopinko]

231. i have lived here for 25 years, and still

find new things all the time. to say nothing of the constant flux that the city is in. so, a month would still be a drop in the bucket.
just fyi- 3 million in the city, 8 in the metro region, about. that's off the top of my head, might not be right.

come on back anytime.

[nosillies]

218. Maybe lots of us didn't really want to be exceptional, so we fought it

For some reason I still get a little pissy when my husband makes a comment about how smart I am.

[mithnanthy]

28. Thanks ..BigMcLargehuge

...for the great suggestions! This is getting off to a good start!

[mopinko]

57. my 2 little guys

(13 and 15) are in a summer program for gifted kids, and taking a graphic novel class. she is an amazing little artist, and he is so freakin funny. i will make sure they read your post, and we will get back to you with the story.

[SensibleAmerican]

63. Heh

n/t

[Prophet 451]

247. I rather like that idea

Although that maybe because I've spent too long playing Evil Genius this weekend.

[Porcupine]

275. Hey brain! What're we gonna do tomorrow? Huh?

tomorrow, Pinkie, we're going to take over the world.

G'night Brain....
Good Night Pinkie.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

311. Screw 'em with a slide rule

[AllNamesHaveBeenUsed]

26. Guilty...

I was in TAGS (Talented and Gifted Students). I was able to achieve a 4.0 with minimal effort. I hated sticking out. In an effort to blend in, when I entered high school, I took many "veg" classes. That was a big mistake. The advanced classes bored me, and the easy ones caused me to seek my own entertainment. As a result, I became the class clown (and disciplinary case).

[Opusnone]

27. Sign me up, Mopinko

IG (Intellectually Gifted) program Farmington, MI public school system in the 70's and 80's.

Reading the posts by those attracted to this topic are scary as they are narrating my life story.

[readmoreoften]

29. That is hilarious. I think GT may be why I am such a got-damned loser!

No serious. I've spent so many years pursuing the intellectual track I believed I was supposed to pursue that I am poor.

I remember hearing that 5 billion dollars a year goes into helping learned disable kids and only 12 million goes into helping GT kids.

I also think that calling it ACCELERATED and not "gifted and talented" would have helped us get along with our peers. I mean, my girlfriend is very talented at fixing cars, but they didn't put her in GT.

[readmoreoften]

31. I have issues on being a gifted female in SAM ALITO's mom's school!

InJustice Sam Alito's mom ROSE ALITO was my elementary school principle. I was one of TWO STUDENTS in the GT program in the school-- and female. Alito's devout catholic mother made my life hell. While she enjoyed the fact that I was intelligent and raised her school's profile, she was always rageful at me for breaking gender stereotypes. Why was a such an aggressive and strange little girl??!! Why didn't I care about being pretty and proper??!! Why couldn't I be normal and proper??!!

She alternately loved and hated me. Bah!

[mopinko]

78. aggressive

oh, yeah, i have been hit with that one. how dare a GIRL be consumed by a passion to learn and accomplish. why the nerve. yup. someone once called me that because i did a big jigsaw puzzle in one day. now there is a hostile act for ya.

[tkmorris]

33. You are speaking my language

It amazes me how many of the posts on this thread mirror my own experiences. I don't know how much use a dedicated forum would be but it sure is nice to know that you folks are out there, dealing with (and being frustrated by) the same issues that have plagued me my whole life.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

34. I'm guessing that most , if not all, folks on this board qualify.

Well, with the exception of the trolls of course ;)

Your post really resonated with me. I was one of those kids too. I once heard someone say that the worse thing you could tell a kid was that he/she had a lot of 'potential'. That's what I was told and I've never lived up to it until fairly recently. Now that I'm in my late 30s I've finally realized the futility of trying to fit in with the so-called normal people around me. I find their shallow concerns to be tedious and tiresome. Not that I'm incapable of shallowness myself. Not at all but it's impossible for me to ignore important things and shut my brain off so that I can converse with people about the latest reality show or whatever. I fully agree with you that it was trying to do just that, more than anything, that led to a lot of bad personal decisions, confusion, and misery in my own life.

[mopinko]

45. maybe that could be the "test"

how many times were you told that you were not living up to your potential.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

60. jeez, if that was the test...

I would be the most giftedest of all! :evilgrin:

[Hekate]

167. I dunno; if I had a buck for every time my own mother told me that...

... I was an underachiever, I could retire comfortably.

There is nothing quite like the guilt those kinds of labels can induce. Guilt: the gift that keeps on giving!

In all honesty, I have to thank my Mom for believing that I should go to college because (in spite of my character defects, which is how she viewed my very uneven report cards) she believed with all her heart that bright girls needed as much education as they could cram into their heads. We didn't have money when I was growing up, but we had books and library cards, and a mother who believed we should work every summer "to save up for college."

My grades stayed uneven all through my undergrad years (continuing to provoke the same hand-wringing from my mother), but when I got to grad school I made a great discovery: I was now taking only the subjects that had been my best and most-loved all along, and as a consequence I did quite well.

Hekate

[Joanne98]

213. I once had a report card with 3 FF's and 3 AA's My father cried.

The poor man. I can still remember his face. "How did you DOOOOOO this?

[LeftyMom]

150. If I never ever ever hear that word again

It will still be two decades too late. :grr:

I was both smart and anti-authority enough to figure out that doing assignments both my teachers and I already knew I could do was a waste of my time. I quickly figured out that as a brainy and quiet female, most teachers would let me do anything shy of setting the classroom on fire as long as I didn't bother the kids they had some clue how to teach. As a result, school was a place where I did 8 hours a day of fail time and tried to amuse myself until my release. Often I thought to myself that my time would be much better spent in the library learning new things instead of in a classroom being lectured on things I'd figured out years beforehand. In classes where I could learn at my own pace about things that mattered to me I did beautifully, in more traditional classes I passed by testing well.

Now I've got a headstrong, gifted, authority-questioning, self-taught reader of my own. The one thing that I took away from my school experience is that gifted children don't belong in traditional schools (I'm not sure regular kids do either, but that's another post.)

Interestingly, the best teacher I had in high school got sick of teaching "gifted" kids who were moderate minds driven by pushy parents with more passion for thier GPAs than for learning and quit professional teaching to unschool his own children the year that I graduated.

So I guess what I'm saying is feel free to count me as another vote toward group formation.

[DoYouEverWonder]

178. LOL

I had a short little nun in 7th Grade who use to beat me over the head with whatever she happened to be holding and tell me, 'You're not living up to your potential'.

My report cards were a hoot, all 90+ grades and always a 'U' for effort.

[flowomo]

65. Yeah, "DU -- the Lake Woebegone of Message Boards"

Where all the (former) children are above average!

:)

[distantearlywarning]

35. I would join this group

Was labeled gifted at age 5. Did extremely well in elementary school, but totally crashed and burned in junior high, primarily because the "normal" kids made my life a living hell. I came home from school every day and cried. I didn't understand why they hated me so much when I hadn't done anything. I certainly was not the kid who bragged about grades or being smart or anything, but I couldn't help being who I was. Eventually I learned to hide my light under a bushel (so to speak), and that's when my grades plummeted, because I just didn't give a shit anymore. I just wanted people to leave me the hell alone, and if failing out of school would accomplish that, so be it.

Around 9th grade or so, I found the punkers/goths, who accepted pretty much anyone. Many of them were gifted kids too. So I finally had some friends who understood me, but unfortunately I also developed a drug problem. In 10th grade, I was expelled from my upper-class neighborhood high school and had to enroll in a school across town which was in a bad neighborhood and had a lot of vocational-track kids. Luckily, it was just the right place for me. The kids there weren't so focused on money and sports and other crap like that, and there weren't all the horrible cliques and mean people. I did better there and managed to get pretty good grades for the last two years of HS.

College was better, but I still had trouble interacting with other people in academic settings. The professors loved me, but there was always the dreaded "group project" to contend with. The eternal dilemma of the smart person engaged in "group project": should I try to do the best I can and risk the wrath and contempt of my jealous group members? Or should I make my work like theirs and get a grade in the B-C range? Should I try to help them when they don't understand? Or should I just keep my mouth shut and hope it all works out in the end? I've had some trouble in the workplace too, especially with other women. I can't make inane small talk, we don't have the same interests at all, and they hate it that I become better at whatever job faster than they did.

Graduate school is the first time in my entire life that I finally feel like I am with people from my own planet. I don't have to be quiet, or pretend I'm not as smart as I am, or worry about the delicate feelings of others when I talk about stuff. And people there get what I'm talking about. It's amazing.

However, in the rest of my "normal" life outside school, I still feel like a total freak. Other people just don't get me at all. And I always feel like I have to pretend to be somebody and something I'm not. It's like always being inside a box looking out at other people. They don't know me, and I can't let them know me or they will hate me.

I suspect that very good-looking people have a similar problem, although maybe to a lesser extent because beauty is so high status in this culture.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling post. I would like to join this group if someone creates one.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. I had a double whammy--

bright and having to contend with a mother and grandmother who did their best (intentionally or unintentionally) to isolate me socially.

I spent my college years learning to get along with other people, and living in a dorm really helped with that. I was also lucky to form friendships with some of my professors, who encouraged me to go on to graduate school.

Graduate school was the in many ways the happiest period of my life, because I had real peers for the first time.

Actually being an academic was disappointing, both because of the petty politics and because of the presence of colleagues who stagnated mentally once they got tenure and became incapable of talking about anything but current TV shows and lawn and garden care.

Still, I miss the kinds of lively, all-over-the-map discussions and wordplay that mark academic gatherings at their best.

[mopinko]

101. maybe mom and grandma were gifted, too.

shyness, even outright fearfulness, is a common attribute.
finding your peers is so important. i joined a co-op ceramic studio 2 years ago, and it has made a huge difference to me. once i convinced myself that i was good enough, and really the peer of the other members, that is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

121. They were certainly not stupid, but their problems were more a matter

of family dynamics, with my grandmother having been an abused child and in an unhappy marriage.

[Hekate]

173. Stick with grad school; w/ any luck you'll end up with a professional peer

Stick with grad school; with any luck you'll end up with a professional peer group with whom you can interact on a day to day basis, and make some friends as well.

It can be really lonely until you do.
How to put this. One of the things my adult friends and I have in common is memories of the living hell that junior high and high school social life can be. (My husband doesn't have those memories, because he was not only being praised for being a good student, he also ended up in a magnet high school with a couple of thousand other kids like him.) At least I was in classes where my teachers expected we would all learn at a fairly high level, but the whole social thing, for years... I learned to do what I called "faking it," though probably not very well.

I never ended up in a career track where I could talk to people about what interested me without being thought of as strange, so I looked for other activities where I could meet like-minded people. However, my sister the computer engineer turned tech-writer, my women friends who became librarians, and so on -- they find a great deal of satisfaction in their work, and often the people they meet there. They also reach out to other activities as time permits -- and I think to a certain extent wisely compartmentalize their lives. My friend -- mild-mannered retired librarian -- talks quilts with the quilting guild, and fruit trees with the Rare Fruit Growers, and politics and aging parents with me. Actually she can talk about anything she wants to with me, but I'm not an expert on her hobbies like the other people.

Now I'm rambling because my brain is tired. What I'm saying is, it gets better. You meet people who accept you and like you for yourself, and when you have enough of them in your life, the others don't matter as much.

Hekate

[cmf]

36. I think it might be an interesting group

I definitely think that I have some residual issues from being labeled "exceptional" so early on. I know that I shouldn't feel like a failure because I'm not researching the cure for cancer or something just as monumental, but I do. My husband (who was also a gifted child) and I talk about it sometimes. Life in the real world takes some getting used to after living in the ivory tower for so long.

[aikoaiko]

37. Being high IQ may not be paradise, but its way better than being low IQ

Almost all the data suggests people with higher than average IQ graduate high school and college more, avoid arrests and stay out of jail more, and avoid poverty much more than people with below average IQ even after controlling for parental socio-economic status.

High IQ doesn't gaurantee success, but it does make it much more likely.

The cure for high IQ is frontal lobotomy. All your problems will go away.

[mopinko]

47. or suicide

the tortured genius stereotype has a lot of truth to it. existential depression and suicide are very common.

[undergroundpanther]

155. Some of the people

I relate to the best are borderline retarded. Ironic ain't it?

[azmouse]

39. I was labeled 'gifted' in high school.

I certainly don't regret being born intelligent but in my family it didn't mean a thing. Neither of my parents finished high school. In fact, my mom quit at 16 to get married and had a baby one year later. I'm sure my parents expected me to do the same but there was no way in hell I was going to be a teenage mom and live the miserable life my parents did.
So since I didn't "live down" to their expectations, they didn't help me at all when I wanted to go to college. In fact, they put up so many roadblocks to my higher education I ended up working in factories for many years. Ya know, how dare I, as a mere female, think about college when neither of my older brothers went there. Since that time, I've gotten some education and worked some fun jobs.

And don't worry. I've made a good life for myself with a great husband and no regrets about being smart enough to not get caught in the same trap my mom was caught in.

[laruemtt]

42. i had four scholastic scholarships

and a 136 IQ and lost it all first semester in college to go completely wild. and i still once in a while fight the resentment that my parents or anybody did not step in to see what the hell was going on with me. the 1970s, mistrust of all authority, drugs, and an emotionally absent family resulted in my taking very many different paths, at times almost fatal ones. am still here for a reason and am enjoying life, despite not even getting a BA until i was 46!!

long story short, a group of kindred spirits could be pretty interesting. sign me up!

[Gregorian]

108. Wow, that sound a lot like me.

Child prodigy musician. And then a bunch of stuff later on. 1974 in UC Santa Cruz, and it was WILD! Got kicked out. Huge drop. Drugs, drink. And slowly pulled my way up to get a degree at the age of 35. And so on and so forth.

I'd almost rather forget the whole mess. I am finally feeling almost normal now that I found DU. Although I'm finally feeling old. Hey, at least we "felt" life. I know people who now are trying desperately to live their twenties that they missed. And it isn't 1974 any more.


Bla bla bla. Glad to meet you! I bet we would have stories to share. I'll just imagine them. Haha.


Hey, I just discovered my IQ is 134. I never took the test until recently. I never wanted to know. But yes, I also wondered where my family was while I was tripping out in college, and lost. Shit. Oh dear, I better not get started... (:

[mopinko]

112. see? it ain't a bed of roses.

depression, drugs, etc., and genius are like peanut butter and jelly, man.

[laruemtt]

180. maybe because

when you see what should be obvious to everyone and watch it being treated like garbage, you've almost got to anesthetize yourself to be able to go on.

[Finder]

211. Great point. n/t

[laruemtt]

179. "Hey, at least we "felt" life."

amen to that!

[rug]

43. How about a cool kids group?

[mopinko]

44. the gifted kids i know

fit in just fine with adults.

[SharonAnn]

50. Sure, as a gifted kid I always fit in just fine with adults. Peers were

the problem. I didn't fit in well with my peers.

[Zhade]

71. LOL, exactly.

Nothing like self-aggrandizement!

[mopinko]

76. nothing like jealousy, either

at least it will be a chance to update my ignore list.

[MissB]

51. This is a fascinating thread.

Good idea, btw.

[mopinko]

53. funny, tho

all these replies, and only one recommendation. hmmmm.

[MissB]

54. Formerly gifted, you know.

:rofl:

[flowomo]

61. Forget the group, see the movie....

Revenge of the somethingorothers....

[Viva_La_Revolution]

67. NERDS!!!

I loved that movie, and all the sequels. If I'd been able to college I so would have been an Amega Moo. :D

[ulysses]

62. eh.

Might be interesting, might not be. I got labeled in 5th grade, and other than meeting the best teacher I ever had (thanks, Ms Batty!), the experience of hanging out for a class or two with the "smart kids" largely blew.

I know I'm intelligent, but I never considered myself apart from "the normals".

[mopinko]

70. don't take this the wrong way

but it sounds like you might not be one of us. we are the ones that blew. we didn't mean to, we just couldn't help it.
you could be one of the lucky ones, tho. some kids have social gifts as well. my youngest is gifted, talented, and has more empathy and social grace than any 5 adults i know. the only people, kids and adults, that she doesn't get along with are the ones that are threatened by smart people. sometimes i think she may be one of the alien babies mentioned up thread.

[ulysses]

79. I didn't say that the other kids blew.

We were all relatively similar in our social abilities. Some had more, some had less, none of us were the "popular kids" in the school. Of that group, most of us were in Odyssey of the Mind (national competition the summer after our senior year - my team placed fifth) and four of us were National Merit Scholars. I was one of the two out of those four who got along relatively well socially by that point. Of the two who didn't...well, he was a Dr. Who devotee who knitted his own long scarf and wore it and a trench coat every day. Last I heard, he was the IT honcho at Carleton College, married, ran his own esoteric publishing house, and was happy. She (one of my best friends growing up) was quite brilliant, particularly in mathematics, but desperately searching, by the time we graduated, for something. She worked as an actuary for a while after college, then thought she found what she was looking for in a rigid, reactionary husband who made her quit her job and raise their kids in true fundamentalist lifestyle. I talked to the aforementioned Ms Batty last December, who told me that my old friend is pretty miserable but can't admit it.

None of this particularly matters, though. I guess my point is that I automatically twitch at the idea of grouping people by IQ labels. Does that make my life as a special ed teacher interesting? Yes, it does.

[mopinko]

83. i understand the twitch

but many of us do share a common set of experiences and problems. many of us have been outcasts for a least a chunk of our lives, especially as kids. being with other people who share that is comforting.
a lot of us are still, (or always) searching for direction. we get a lot of advice/pressure from those around us. a lot of it is very bad. we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. just reminding each other that it is ok to be not normal would at least be a little pressure the other way.
if it doesn't sound like the place for you, fine. we will not be investigating test scores, and rounding people up.

[ulysses]

87. well, do as you will.

You might be happier, though, if instead of "it's ok to not be normal" you got used to the idea that "I'm no less normal - for better and for worse - than the next poor sod on the bus". Just a thought.

Peace.

[mopinko]

95. i don't think

you have walked in my shoes.

[ulysses]

100. perhaps I haven't.

Or perhaps you see yourself too differently from that next schmoe on the bus.

"We are all worms. However, I do believe that I am a glowworm."

- Winston Churchill

[mopinko]

106. no really

i have tried very hard to be a schmoe. especially as a mom, i wanted to be just like everyone else. and i measured my self by the yardstick of "normal". it caused me more trouble than you can imagine.
don't think that feeling different means feeling superior. that is not the point, at all. it is more like the opposite.

[stepnw1f]

212. No Kidding.... the Last Thing I Feel is Superior

but hey, maybe it would do me some good... nah. I tried that before. It doesn't work.... I'm satisfied with being very different. Thank you for this thread Mopinko.

[ulysses]

255. maybe you don't

but with the talk of "mundanes" and "mediocrities", there are evidently those who do feel superior.

[mopinko]

260. obviously there are a lot of people who feel INFERIOR

they are the ones doing the attacking. we just want a place where we don't have to be treated like you and other are treating us.

[ulysses]

264. mopinko, trust me when I say

that I don't feel inferior. Note, as well, that I don't recall anyone on DU treating you in any particular way for your intelligence until you brought it up. I've reacted the same when when people have brought up how much they spend on their clothes, by way of example. And if you think I'm "attacking" now, you should have seen that thread. :)

Honestly, I think you may be setting yourself up for more grief than the enterprise is worth, but that's me.

[mopinko]

269. i haven't really had trouble with folks here

except maybe through my own sensitivity. and i have to agree that there will be grief. already have plenty here.
but read some of these posts, then imagine that these people are your neighbors and family members. then realize that for most of us, these things hurt us a lot more than they do you.
so, why, then, would you want to give us a hard time about a place where we people understand?

[redqueen]

327. how lucky for you...

i don't remember exactly when i was labeled, but i know that the first gifted classes i remember were with one of the worst teachers i ever had

i still think about looking him up and castigating him, and demanding my poems back. the ass.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Guess that's a group I won't be visiting

:)

[mopinko]

77. thanks to all who prove our point

about getting along with normal people. man.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. So take it understanding humor

isn't one of the areas you are gifted in. :eyes:

[mopinko]

103. actually, no, it isn't always

especially on a message board. i think i am pretty funny, but i do tend to jump a little at jabs. thin skinned. i admit it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

107. I wasn't jabbing you

I was making fun of myself.

[mopinko]

114. maybe you do belong here.

pretty common attitude ya got there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

Nah I just took the test.

I did better than I thought I would though.

[mopinko]

117. lots of kinds of gifts

i have a lot of kinda ordinary gifts, too. sometimes you can make up in quantity what you lack in quality.

[mopinko]

123. we might need a few smilies of our own.

i think a lot of us do have a little humor impairment.

[Blue_In_AK]

80. They didn't call us gifted when I was in school...

but I graduated in the top two percent of my highschool class of approximately 500 and also passed the Mensa test quite a few years ago. Does that count? Oh, and I've made lots of bad decisions, too, and don't have any money. Guess I qualify. :)

[mopinko]

82. welcome aboard

passing the mensa test definitely qualifies you. the question is, do you have any friends?

[Blue_In_AK]

88. Do I have any friends?

I consider several DUers my friends, but as far as face-to-face type friends, no, I don't have many. I generally get along quite fine in social settings, if I have to, and I have many, many acquaintances who think I'm pretty cool (because I am :hippie: ) but as far as really close, soul-to-soul friends, I think I only have one, besides my husband. But she lives in San Francisco, and last year was the first time I had seen her in 30 years. So there you have it.

I'm not unhappy, though. I like my reclusive life...that's why I'm in Alaska.

[mopinko]

93. i hear ya.

now that my kids are getting bigger, hermit-hood kinda calls.

[undergroundpanther]

152. I had a friend

Who desperately wanted into mensa.H.
He stayed at my house overnight and I helped him with the test,timing him and whatnot.
He was so upset nervous and all,and I just knew it was his friggin test anxiety messing him up.As he slept I corrected two of his answers,so he could get into mensa.Because I knew he knew those answers already,he told me them before.I knew he was too anxious to remember what he knew during the test. He didn't not know I did this.He was sooo happy when he got in and he really has enjoyed it. I was too insecure to go there myself.I thought once I opened my mouth I'd be looked at like a loon given my history and the kind of intelligence I have isn't what I thought was expected or valued by mensa.

[Branjor]

241. I passed the mensa test years ago....

Was also labeled at various times, won a couple of scholarships. Did less well on a day by day basis, often getting mediocre grades, shy, hard time fitting in socially. Lately, I feel more conscious of the great amount of things I don't know and I feel more "blah" than gifted.

[femmocrat]

84. I take exception to your statement that "most of us wish were were just

normal folks." I don't even understand that. Do you mean that gifted people would rather be "average" or "mediocre"? I understand that gifted adolescents often try to conform, but there is no reason for gifted adults to "deny our gifts." I have read through the threads and have had a different kind of education, I suppose. Sure, like everyone, I have lots of problems, but none that I would blame on the schools of decades ago. Instead, a genuinely "gifted" adult should have the resources to find solutions and to stop blaming well-meaning but woefully uninformed teachers and counselors for their shortcomings.

I also disagree with the person who equated "giftedness" with mathematic and scientific aptitude. This denies the genius of those who are gifted in the arts and humanities. This attitude or belief is prevalent in schools today and is severely penalizing those students who have talent or ability in the visual and performing arts.

[mopinko]

90. we want to fit in, like everyone else

look at some of the snarky posts in this thread, then imagine working for someone like that. being the child of that. being stuck in a classroom all day with 30 of those.
but you are looking at it in the wrong light entirely. this is not intended to be a pity party for smart people. there is a lot more to it than other people's reactions. like, many of us are also very emotionally sensitive. so, not only do we swim in a sea of negative reaction, we perceive it acutely.
giftedness is not all goody goody. depression and suicide are very common. alcoholism, addiction, amazingly low self esteem. so much that sets up internal contradictions that we tend to fret at obsessively. so many parts to this package.
i agree with you about other gifts, tho. absolutely. just about any extraordinary gift is going to leave a hole somewhere else. and cause problems in relationships. there is a lot of common ground there, and talented people who share these problems would be welcome.

[AnnieBW]

86. Yep.

My husband and I were both "gifted". Unfortunately, it's lead me to have a lack of patience for those with IQs low enough to be Repugs.

We had a lot of everything at my high school. I had 725 in my graduating class. Unfortunately, us "brains" had to stick together. I remember the girl that was our valedictorian, who was Vietnamese. The low-lifes would always call her a "gook". Yeah, like THEY ever had a prayer of being valedictorian! Sheesh.

The only way I'd go back to my high school reunion is with a suicide bomber's vest on.

[mopinko]

92. bwahahahaha

yeah, me too. i had a real gas at my grade school reunion, tho. 37 years, and it was like nothing.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

89. For me it was one of the things that made life

eh interesting, or challenging.

In grade school there was a small group of us who were let out of classes to be studied by someone interested in "gifted children."

I remember feeling guilty cause it was better than being in class and we got to get out to the playground earlier and longer.

It was interesting to see who the others were who got picked. The majority were from my own "accelerated" class.

Later on in life, I used to have a negative feeling towards Mensa, the snob factor was what I feared. Then I met some interesting and nice people who belonged to Mensa. So I became active in it for a while.

Haven't done anything with them in a while now.

In my family of origin there was rampant narcissism, so I'm on the look out for signs of the destructive snobbery and grandiosity in myself that I was around so much for so long.

[shadowknows69]

94. Under what criteria are we judging "gifted" exactly

Not being sarcastic. Curious.

[mopinko]

96. none, really

:shrug: judging would not be the point. sharing, hopefully, would be.

[shadowknows69]

102. Well i was never told specifically I was gifted

So I was wondering if I could tell myself lol. Actually when I was very young my parents sent me to some specialty learning doctor in Montreal named Dr. Kirshner. When I first learned of this later in life I was semi worried thinking I had been learning deficient or something but they said it was actually a place to see if you were gifted because I had displayed accelerated learning very early. I guess he tol them something to the effect of I had a great mind and ideas but did have trouble expressing them verbally and mechanically (ie, I'm a natural klutz of impressive ability at times.) but that they should get me a secretary to take a dictation of anything I might say. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean lol. I do have spotty but very vivid little memories of the place. They talked to me a lot and had me doing a lot of drawing and peg in hole exercises and similar things.

[mopinko]

104. take the mensa test.

here is a fun version. http://www.mensa.org/index0.php?page=12
it helps to know.

[shadowknows69]

105. If I score high can I put it on my resume?

I've taken IQ tests before. Not just the novelty online ones either although I've taken those too and they matched up to within a point or two so who knows. I'll check it out but I'm not sure the relevance of even knowing your "IQ" other than for some egotistical need. I'll take it though. My curiosity is piqued. I still want them to some up with some kind of Creative Quotient test because I'll bet you real money if they did, whatever I lacked in raw intellect I'd make up for in dreams.

[mopinko]

110. dreaming is an intellectual pursuit, for sure.

other talents are usually included in the definition, not that that helps your average artistic genius child in school.
if you joined mensa, you could sure 'nuf put that on your resume.
self knowledge is not egotistical. a healthy ego needs truth. you are falling into the trap of feeling like it is a bad thing to accept and embrace your gifts. big difference between accepting yourself and looking down on other people. not the same, at all.

[Hekate]

174. No, it only pisses people off.You'll meet interesting people if you join

...though, maybe even a spouse.

Hekate

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. "That score is a little low,

but it is always possible that you could pass the Mensa test"

Sorry, I didn't make the cut. Toldya. :)

[mopinko]

118. just a little low

would make my cut. wasn't planning on carding people at the door or anything.

[shadowknows69]

190. I got "just a little low"

But that was at 2AM having only slept about 4 hours in the last 36. Do they questions change? I'd love to try it again.

[Finder]

216. The test was fun...

Your score was 24 out of 30. That is a very good score, you would have a good chance of passing the Mensa test.

[Quixote1818]

310. That test is one dimensional

All the questions are very similar logic/mathematical based. It doesn't test creativity, it doesn't test leadership ability, it doesn't test common sense, it doesn't test abstract thinking, it doesn't test people skills, it doesn't test sense of humor, it doesn't test lateral thinking, it doesn't test thinking outside the box, it doesn't test empathy, it doesn't test kindness, it doesn't test inner strength, it doesn't test thinking on your feet, it doesn't test adaptability, it doesn't test ability to utilize knowledge, it doesn't test vision depth perception, it dosen't test humility etc. etc. etc.

Who made that test a standard of testing intelligence? Perhaps someone who excels in that kind of thinking?

[Rowdyboy]

109. Its such a a sore subject...I LOVE standardized tests and tend to kick ass

when I take them. However, my grades in high school and college weren't spectacular. I'm just really good at standardized tests (I like competing against myself) and intelligence test scores were really considered important when I was growing up.

[mopinko]

111. another common cover story.

i always thought that too. i am just a good test taker. i also never thought that i really deserved to be accepted into the school of the art institute, either. i thought they just felt sorry for me. seriously.
there is a higher correlation between test scores and actual intelligence than there is between grades and intelligence. way, way higher.

[Rowdyboy]

120. I tested for MENSA way back in the 1970's...they required an IQ of 130

and I came in at 129. Life's a bitch, sometimes.

[mopinko]

124. we'll take you .

you pass.

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. I do well on tests too

But doing well on a test doesn't mean I am gifted.

[Rowdyboy]

143. No, it just means that you do well on standardized tests.....Which means

nothing, really, except that your mind has been bent to think in a specific way. That talent, by itself, certainly doesn't make me any more "gifted" than anyone else.

[DistressedAmerican]

113. Can We Do Special Projects Like We Did In Our Gifted Classes?

Maybe get access to better computers that the rest of the kids? We had a commadore 64 and TWO count em wtwo TRS 80's? The rest of the kids were jealous!

[mopinko]

116. what should we do?

really, this is all a plot to form a brain trust for after the nuclear holocaust. want in? your gifts are obvious, friend.

[undergroundpanther]

119. Yeah I could use a group like this

Giftedness fucked me over bigtime.It lead to alot of the abuse I went through growing up.It is so very hard to relate to people when they do not understand.
It sure had a way of alienating me from day 1. I could use a group like this,alot.Please DU add it,and I'll join it!

[mopinko]

122. hey, you started this

the thread you had the other day was a giant size D'OH!! for me. all your fault.

[undergroundpanther]

149. I did?

COOL!
Glad I opened my trap that time than....Dang. :)

Thanks MO,
And do let me know
when I can go,
sign up and show...
connect and grow
and understand also
how it feels to be so

misunderstood and stuck in the undertow.
of the mediocrity of this world.
*smirk*
Thanks :)

[unblock]

125. my theory on "intelligence"

is that there are a number of different types of "intelligence" and typically, only "academic" intelligence gets the "gifted" label/stigma. but there are other types, such as musical, physical, and social intelligence.

in this country, excelling in one particular skill (be it basketball or math or leadership) can be a big asset all other things being equal. however, the bigger factor is that you have to NOT SUCK at any of the other things. you have to have some basic competence at a lot of things, otherwise that weakness will be your undoing.

if your social intelligence is below minimum, then all the math smarts in the world won't be enough to hold down a job. you have to know how to show up on time and do what your boss says, basic stuff like that.


mrs. unblock and are very different and complement each other well. she can do many things at once, i can't. i can focus deeply on one project, she can't. i have two degrees, she doesn't. but i'd have no social life if it weren't for her, i'd dress like a dork, and the list goes on.

EVERYBODY has things they're good at, and EVERYBODY has things they're bad at. picking out one particular kind of "gifted" and making a big stink about it seems pretty narrow-minded.


of particular relevance for "gifted programs", i believe they should NOT focus on extending that which the gifted children already have in abundance. instead, they should focus on getting a BALANCE of the other important skills they will need.

for instance, many academically intelligent people suck at the major sports. however, they can learn hand-eye coordination and other aspects of physical intelligence via things with more intellectual appeal, e.g., certain video games. the idea should be to help gifted kids with the special challenges they face. they usually CANNOT acquire any level of physical intelligence in a school where they are always the last ones picked and hugely outclassed by the people who can barely pass written test, but can blow people away on the field.

[mopinko]

130. can't argue, except, not sure about the stink.

(sniffing my pits.)
what you say is basically all true. but it is a fact that very gifted people pretty much always have something missing. there are a lot of common traits that are rare in this part of the bell curve. it is also a fact that some gifts are a pain. like being very sensitive to emotions, ours and others. it is like going through life naked in a lot of ways.
so, that would be the point of the group, to help each other out when it comes to filling those holes, getting by without those other gifts or coping with the gifts we wish we did not have.

[unblock]

135. right. some "gifts" are actually byproducts of handicaps

for instance, i suspect that my strong analytical abilities are actually a function of my inability to multitask and my tendency to become oblivious to my surroundings. mostly this is a handicap, but it does allow one to become a good chess player or programmer.

of course, one could argue that being a chess player or a programmer would be a further handicap....

[personman]

181. Or...

Your inability to multi-task and tendency to become oblivious, are byproducts of your gift. I'm not sure which of these is the "glass half full" equivalent.

Have you been diagnosed with ADD by any chance?

I'm also curious if there is some chance that this kind of intelligence has a correlation with ADD and with certain personality types.

A lot of smart people have symptoms that sound similar to ADD, and some of the info I have read about the INTJ personality type, sounds similar to characteristics of ADD.

Here is a link to the test: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

Once you have your type, you can google it with "personality types" and it should give you plenty more info.

[unblock]

183. iirc, i'm an intp

and i most definately do NOT have add. if anything, i have the opposite problem -- i latch on to something and my attention can't be diverted.

although i've gotten much better over the years, as my management duties have forced me to work on that problem.

[personman]

193. Hmm..

Strange, when I was younger I would end up focusing on the things that interested me to the exclusion of just about anything else.
I can remember when my mom would have to call me a couple times, because I was focused so intently I wouldn't even hear her the first time. In school I'd block out teachers, and usually just read. It was about impossible for me to focus on things that didn't interest me. Then I was diagnosed with ADD, my teacher said I could have been a poster child for it. Beats me though, I'm skeptical of just about everything medicine anymore.

[marions ghost]

300. if you do some reading about ADD

it's not always about hyperactivity in the physical sense and can also be correlated with hyperfocus. Not to label you or anything...just an area you might want to explore. Nowdays it's coming to mean hyperactivity in certain areas of the brain, and is less seen as a 'disorder'--tho sometimes needing treatment or adaptive strategies--but not necessarily a serious malfunctioning. It's a constellation of
types.

[Hosnon]

187. Very well said. Moderation is the key to life.

[unblock]

189. yes. well, not TOO much moderation :)

we must have moderation in our moderation!

[Hosnon]

192. Haha, hence the inherent "contradiction." Moderation for everything

except moderation...

[starroute]

126. One thread is fine -- a group would just be self-indulgent

As a kid I was aware that I was smarter than any of the other kids I knew, but I was also aware that I had a lot of problems that none of the grownups seemed to notice or offer me any help with. I'm socially awkward, have trouble remembering names and faces, often don't pick up on subtle cues of voice or body language -- but I didn't understand any of that then. All I knew was that I got teased a lot, got embarrassed a lot, and was more than half convinced that there was something wrong with me that everybody who met me was immediately aware of but nobody would tell me about.

And when I went crying to my mother (and I did -- a lot), she would tell me that kids instinctively pick on anyone who's different, that I was just a late bloomer, and that meanwhile I needed to learn "window dressing." And I would see her dumbing herself down with her Mah Jongg ladies and wonder how she could bear to be so insincere. These days, I don't think it was insincerity -- it was just her nature to charm everyone she met, so she was smart with her smart friends and dull-normal with her dull-normal friends.

But whatever it was on her part, it was a gift I never shared, so I spent an awful lot of years being miserable, feeling like a failure, hating everybody, hating myself, and wondering why nobody else seemed to have my problems. Getting to college helped some -- but the only thing that's made a serious difference is realizing in the last few years that (1) people aren't all the same, (2) I really am a geek, with a full set of geekish limitations, and (3) the line they fed us in the 50's that everybody can be one of the popular kids if they just try hard enough was a damned lie.

A lot of this I owe to my kids, and watching them and trying to help them along. My older son is very smart and even more of a geek than I am -- using him as a mirror has taught me a lot about myself. My younger son is almost but not quite as IQ-smart (though more creative), but he is also Not.A.Geek. I mean, last winter he was working at a warehouse, issuing paperwork to truckers, and meanwhile reading Paradise Lost on his lunch breaks -- and he still got accepted as a regular guy. I have no idea how he pulled that off, and I am totally in awe of it.

[mopinko]

132. big post for someone who wants a short discussion

just sayin.

[starroute]

254. I didn't say I wanted a short discussion

I said I thought one thread was sufficient for the purpose. I poured a lifetime of alienation into one post, and I got it off my chest. What more is needed?

[kiahzero]

288. Let's see

* A place for other people to do the same
* A place for parents to go to for support (getting school districts to comply with their legal obligations is surprisingly difficult)
* A place to relate to other G/T people without being accused of being an elitist bastard.

I'm sure there are more, but those are just the ones that came to mind.

[mopinko]

133. dupe

[557188]

129. Talk to me when you're a Doctor

Oh christ, not some IQ wank fest. IQ tests mean nothing, they just test on the domintant society. They are class based and a horrid way to somehow define intelligence. If the so called "gifted" people were so intelligent they'd have understood this. It's all a scam. Standardize test scores are laughable.

It's sad that people all grown up still want to be that special little snow flake. Thats the biggest thing, people getting into adulthood and realizing they are infact normal. We all have strengths and we all have weaknesses. This whole competition of trying to prove your better than "average" people shows that you're just as normal as the rest of us.

Post grad degrees are the true definition of smarts. The ones with Masters and PHDs, not the 12 year olds who are separated from the "average" kids.

[Greyhound]

136. LOL!

OMFG make it stop!! Please!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Degrees are the definition of smart!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Pulease...

[mopinko]

142. what he said.

countering bs like that would be a worthy function for the group.

[bmcatt]

194. Except I've had to counter that BS too often

I'd strongly suspect that the same is true for any / all of us who are truly GT.

The funny part is that I'll even partially agree with the above premise - to a certain extent, IQ tests are completely bogus. But, it's equally important to understand *why* they're bogus.

First off - you need to understand the norm. What does an IQ of "100" mean? Depends on the test, of course, but generally, it means that you're right at the "average" intelligence. So, by definition, anyone who's scoring over 100 is above average intelligence.

However, getting beyond that, there has been a lot of damage done to IQ tests to place caps and then reduce them. After all, as a society, it's more important that everyone's the same rather than showing that we truly have exceptional people living amongst us. One of the few tests that actually has significance (for IQ measurements above, say, 120-130) is the Stanford-Binet Form L-M. To the best of my knowledge, it's not available online and would need to be administered by an appropriately skilled person. It's one of the "special" ones because it was specifically *tailored* for high IQs and is considered most effective at providing measurements in the above-130 range.

Side note: all of the current IQ tests really have issues with generating meaningful measurements more than 2 standard deviations away from the norm (which, given that IQ norms to 100, means 15 per std. deviation - hence why 130 winds up being the top meaningful measurement). That's because, as I said above (here), there was a lot of pressure to cap and then reduce the measurements that an IQ test could give. Wouldn't want those smart kids to start feeling uppity or anything, right?

Bleah.

My original assessment (far up-thread) stands - the mundanes (or, to us the other term that's gained popularity, in an evil way, among GTs, the "muggles") really don't understand and would be just as happy to lobotomize us all so they don't have to face their fundamental inferiority. Airing our own personal demons in front of them will not be conducive to helping each other nor to any necessary personal healing.

On another side note, for anyone who *is* struggling with GT-ness: I *strongly* recommend the book "Gifted Grownups" by Marylou Kelly Streznewski (subtitle: "The mixed blessings of extraordinary potential"). It provides amazing (and sometimes quite painful) insight into what it means to be a gifted adult.

[nosillies]

219. great book

I second it's recommendation.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

333. Sorry, I spent too many years in academia to think that

getting an advanced degree is a sign of intelligence.

While I did find more peers in grad school than anywhere else, there were also a high percentage of what the Germans call "Fachidioten," or "subject idiots," especially in economics and engineering, people who knew everything about their subject but completely lacked any intellectual curiosity about anything else.

As a teacher, I noticed that my best students exhibited intellectual curiosity and a fondness for complexity over simplicity. They always wanted to know MORE.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

141. Um...Doesn't Dubya have a Masters?

From Harvard?

[Raksha]

172. Nope, Dubya's degree is from Yale.

Skull and Bones and all that good stuff, remember?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

202. No, his undergrad is from Yale. his Masters is from Harvard Business.

[Raksha]

308. Thanks for the correction.

Even us "perfect" elitists make mistakes sometimes--not very often, though!

[Raksha]

171. Well, just look what we have here...

the SAME kind of insensitive b.s. that made our lives miserable in junior high school...

[Hekate]

182. ooooooooh, hit a nerve did we? I'm the same person now that I have a fud

... as I was before, except tireder and older, especially since I was 54 when I finished my dissertation. Loved the subject, worked my ass off, no I'm not getting rich and famous (disappointing my mother yet again).

This is actually an interesting thread -- obviously to a lot of DUers, since so many people have chimed in. It's not a pity-party and it's not an elitest exercise. It's a sub-community finding itself. Nice.

Hekate


edited for brevity and bacause Raksha's reply was better!

[lumberjack_jeff]

266. As opposed to a higher education wank fest, I suppose.

You do realize that you're separating one form of self-selecting elitism for another. A post graduate degree measures many things, of which "smarts" is only one.

[mopinko]

134. well, i would say this thread fills the first test

of interest in a new group.
the second step is to formulate a mission statement. i have got to get some sleep. please post thoughts on this in this sub-thread. we will see where we are in the morning.

[nosillies]

222. Good luck with a mission statement!

You know how hard it is for us gifted folks to gather our thoughts and commit to one or two things!:P No, really, would love to help. I think this topic shows that we all have lots to discuss.

[undergroundpanther]

229. Mopinko mission statements..

If you wanna be cheesy...

You could always use THIS!!!
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/games/career/bin/ms.cgi

[mopinko]

230. bwahahahaha

good one. i love dilbert. he would fit right in.
please check in on this thread-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1647823&mesg_id=1647823

[undergroundpanther]

137. The cursed creativity

I got scores of 182 in my tests,but dammit I am really creative my mind is fast,and I can't for the life of me regurgitate info on command.
Math anxiety and dyslexia made it worse.
This led some people to assume I was not intelligent.I got put in REMEDIAL math. But it's strange to be in remedial class and in GT classes at the same time. Also Having Synethesia didn't make things easier on me. I won't use certain paint colors 'cause they make me half sick or they "taste bad" stink or make my ears ring. My mom and are both cursed with synesthesia..We torment each other when we shop together. It goes like this.. I'll grab a shirt of a particular shade of Chartreuse off a rack hold it up and say Mom,Like this one? she'll look on impluse and cringe like a vampire caught in sunlight seeing THAT color..,but she gets back at me everytime....she says Panther what do you think about THIS and it is a particular shade of putty with a hint of orange . A color found most often in vomit,and always when I see it I will taste something akin to rotten eggs and tin foil in my mouth and then it's a war of the ugly colors!! Bwahahaha..I think if people knew what was going on with with my mom and I when we shop in a humble clothes outlet they'd be amused. This is the scary truth of how 2 synthesiates drive each other crazy for entertainment.This war has been going on for YEARS BTW.. If you be curious..

http://www.mixsig.net/

I am kinda different in my type of intelligence. I understand things but I can't always prove it easy to certain kinds of thinkers.The way I express what I learn is in imagery and poetic .To a literal minded types I know don't make any damn sense.To the linear types I know I ramble,And I always offend the'scientists''cause I don't use the right terminology.Oh well.

Creativity can make it very hard to relate any fucking thing. It goes into me in theories or in words gets locked in my head and it comes out as art.Dammit art is not taken seriously,art is nothing to a bean counters world.And if you get told this shit enough times by bean counters who are not gifted, you will think of strangling them out of sheer frustration...Too bad I can't wave a chartreuse T shirt in their face and torment them.Grrrr..

[Greyhound]

138. Love to this, See if anything different comes of it. n/t

[SupplyConcerns]

145. I was "gifted" but this idea kind of weirds me out

I've always scored in the 98th or 99th percentile on tests, gotten perfect scores on every type of written standardized test, etc. But the bottom line is: it's a basic part of life to learn to be around people of all sorts of intellectual abilities. You seem to be implying that people who were called "gifted" as children have all been somehow scarred by the experience. I'm sorry, but I reject that implication. Though I'm only 21. Maybe life will catch up with me and I'll begin to blame things on how gifted I am.

[undergroundpanther]

154. You don't get scarred by the gifts themselves

You get scarred by other people who can't deal with YOUR gifts and decide to abuse you because they resent the shit out of your abilities ,and they act like assholes to you,tear your soul out bit by bit so you never ever use your gifts or allow yourself to get joy out of them.When I grew up my existence actually threatened people.On my end I had no clue why I thought I had a curse on me.An invisible ink target only bullies could see. My intensity makes certain types of people insecure defensive and fascinated. I cannot tolerate authoritarians.Life is still like this for me,but less so, I get jackasses taking my picture at restaurants or at a gas pump,they are fascinated but unnerved by me. I call this crap the Bel Air Paparazzi.I have had three shrinks tell me my gifts my intensity and creativity and ,my persona freaks people it makes them resent me,desire to be around me, and it threatens them all at the same time. So I had to deal with the reality,I got beat up for existing in other words. If that isn't a scarring experience for me I dunno what is.
Those who can,do
Those who can't..bully.

[girl gone mad]

157. Don't worry.

I wasn't scarred by being gifted, though I do think that the pressure of high expectations can have a negative impact and I did learn to hide my intelligence, especially from men (love interests), at an early age.

Being told you are smarter than everybody else and succeeding in school with little to no effort can lead to a sort of laziness. In life, you have to learn to make your own opportunities. Some of the most successful people I know are the ones who were often told they wouldn't achieve much.

One of the best things that happened to me was being the only girl in most of my college math and science classes. Some of my peers treated me as if I was out of my element. They learned very quickly that I could ruin the curve if pushed. Competitiveness is a vital emotion which keeps us striving towards our goals.

We all end up scarred by things in our past. I think the problem gifted people face is in failing to live up to some unrealistic vision that was given to them, this idea that they could change the world and life would always be easy, just like schoolwork was. Or that giftedness would automatically open doors. Many end up underachievers as a result. I know I'm an underachiever, but then again I've spent enough time around highly successful people to reach the conclusion that success itself isway overrated.

[mopinko]

239. not about scarred

although a lot of us were. more about the ways that gifted people are different, and about finding out that gifted people are normal in their own way.

[bleever]

146. DU is the group. Gifted, formerly gifted, soon to be ex-formerly gifted...

They're all here.

I know a bunch of them.

:thumbsup:

[nashville_brook]

147. a good idea for a group... a lot to talk about, it seems...

[Voltaire99]

148. Stop me before I use my "gifts" again!

Good luck in your struggle against, er...what are you X-Men struggling against, exactly? Being formerly gifted? Needing to be re-recognized as gifted?

Bloody hell, in any case, my heart is just breaking.

[personman]

191. So smart people don't get to have problems?

What a completely insensitive and shitty thing to say.

Your post is transparent as hell though, and rather then come here to insult others, you might benefit from looking into yourself a bit, to see what insecurity made you lash out like this.

I'm sure your going to say I'm being an arrogant elitist prick, just like you'd expect out of this thread, because I dared to imply you could be jealous. But come on...did you just call us X-Men? That kind of hostility seems wayyy over-proportionate.

Your post reads like some guy with a 3 inch penis throwing a tantrum at a bunch of well hung porn stars.

[LeftyMom]

151. Could you include parents of gifted children in the mission statement?

At this point in my life I think I have more to talk about in terms of LeftyKid's needs and education than my own and being able to seek the advice of adults who faced similar gifts and challenges would be very useful and important.

I think it would be really beneficial for the parents who were not singled out as gifted to be able to draw on the experience of those who were in helping thier own children's needs to be met, and in order to be able to do that, they'd need to be invited members of the group rather than guests borrowing expertise. It might prove useful for those of us stuggling to understand some things about our own childhoods to hear the difficulties of normal parents with gifted children as well.

[conflictgirl]

158. Yes, parenting gifted kids is a whole different ballgame

I wish some of the people in this thread could understand that giftedness is NOT about smug superiority, it's about special education. Just as kids who perform significantly below average need education tailored to their needs (academic, emotional and social), kids who perform significantly above average need the same. A lot of people unfortunately assume that performing above average should be something that doesn't present a problem or a need for individualized education.

Whether or not you've been labeled gifted yourself, parenting gifted kids is a unique challenge. Trying to make sure their intellectual development is appropriately addressed, while helping them navigate the emotional and social issues that go hand in hand with being different, can be pretty difficult.

[conflictgirl]

156. I wonder how others interested in the group would score on the Aspie test

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

I was labeled gifted in school and it was both a blessing and a curse in many ways. I spent a number of my adult years thinking that maybe the label was wrong and all along I was no different from other people and it was kind of an artificially created separation from others. Then I took that Asperger's test when it was posted at a different forums-based website. Based on how I scored on the Aspie test, I realized that I really was different from other people.

I'm curious about how others who have been labeled "gifted" would do on the Asperger's test. Anyone want to take it and post their score?

[Hekate]

184. DU has a lot of self-identified Aspies who will chime in eventually

I don't really want to take that test. The more I learn about Asperger's, the more I know there's a sampling among my programmer friends.

I think learning I'm moderately ADD, off the charts on the HSP test, and so on, is enough self knowledge for awhile. Like you, after a lifetime of trying to figure out what code other people knew that I didn't, I've had to conclude that yes, I am different. (Though I never thought of myself as a "snowflake" as referenced by a poster upthread. lol)

I like my life now.

Hekate

[laruemtt]

207. delete

delete

[laruemtt]

214. just now took the test and got a 32.

so i'm a cusp aspie???

[Finder]

223. 28 n/t

[Evoman]

166. Lol...maybe we also need a club for low IQ people.

When I was very young (maybe 5 or 6), I managed to score fairly low on a couple of IQ tests. Heh...I suppose it could be because I barely new English, seeing as how I was new to the country and my mom didn't speak a word. I think I was marked as borderline retarded. I don't think anyone tested me after that, that I remember (apart from some tests in high school). Strangely enough, I graduated second in my class in high school (number one guy was a a gifty who graduated with 99 percent), and am a Biology grad student now, with multiple national scholarships and honours.

I'm extremely good at math and science, but definitely wouldn't say I am "gifted/talented". Oddly enough, my talents are more social. Although I am not at all emotional myself (very rational and never lose my temper), I am phenomenal at reading faces, emotions, and even motives. Lol..if I wasn't so damn straight-laced, I would make a good con man.

Sometimes I wish I could *understand* gifted people. I wish I could get into your brains, and experience genius first hand. I realize that being gifted is difficult, but if you think that just because we aren't genuises, the rest of us "smart but not gifted" people were treated normally, than I'll just have to tell you otherwise. God know I wasn't popular. And although I am not gifted, I still think most of the people around me are morons (no, I do not watch reality tv...and no, I don't want to join in on your mundane conversation about Paris Hilton).

I don't think it would be a bad idea for you guys to have some sort of group for gifted people. I think it would be interesting. But I'm kinda wondering what you guys would talk about, that you can't talk about in other forums. Share stories, solve the worlds problems, mentally masterbate?

On Edit: Did that mensa workout thingy...got 24 in half an hour. I hate those word scrambling things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

267. I suspect that the primary curse of being gifted...

... is an inability to understand why the mediocre people don't automatically defer to ones' patently superior intellect.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

296. Thank you for that post. It helped me pick my jaw up off the desk.

n/t

[Buns_of_Fire]

168. I was once a gifted child...

Thankfully, though, years of self-destructive behavior and the ingestion of copious amounts of "stuff that isn't good for you" has cured me. Hallelujah! (Is American Idol on tonight?)

[laheina]

170. What an awesome idea!!

Falling into this group myself, as well as parenting a gifted child, it may help me out a lot! :hi:

[Hekate]

176. This is an amazing thread. Bookmarking! KnR!

:hi:

edited to Recommend for Greatest page

Hekate

[tkmorris]

177. 14 hours ago I posted to this thread

The post essentially said that while I was glad to know there were people like me out there I didn't know what good a new group on DU would do for us.

In the intervening time I have thought of at least a dozen topics I want to discuss with all of you. Things I normally would not bring up, but would in such an environment. For example, how many of you in retrospect feel that you have, knowingly or unknowingly, tried to turn OFF that inner furnace through the usage of various chemicals or other methods? Alcohol has at times been the Great Equalizer for me, and I suspect some of you.

What about personal relationships? Particularly spousal ones? Have any of you had any real disasters there? I have, though I am happy to say that I finally saw the light and married someone I could TALK too. She is one of us, though she sometimes wants to deny it.

Fire this group up Mopinko. Make it happen. I've got shit I want to talk about.

[Hekate]

186. Briefly: my 2 marriages were/are like that

jeez, I have to go to bed

Once we were no longer in college together, my first husband completely ran out of topics in common with me. I mean there was almost nothing he had to say to me any more. It was horrible.

My now-husband and I have a conversation that never ends, through good times and bad. He keeps growing. We stimulate each other's minds. (The other thing is good too. ;-)) We've been together 25 years...

Hekate

[Hosnon]

188. Personal relationships are particularly difficult - mainly because they

seem to be, by definition, based on emotion which is a difficult thing to muddle through (especially for those that beleive it is at some level NOT irrational and thus spend too much time probing into what is actually going on).

And yeah, I've spent the last 5-7 years "dumbing" myself down - and it has made me happier, though full of regret due to lost potential. I chose "happy regular guy" over "miserable special guy."

[kdmorris]

195. She doesn't sometimes want to deny it

She ALWAYS wants to deny it. So many of the posts on this page are similar to my experiences in school and the habit of denying my intelligence still lingers, 20 years later. I was "Gifted" in school, but that really just made my life a living hell. They wanted to move me up to 3rd grade when I was in 1st, but my Dad (for whatever reason) didn't want them to. He said later that he regretted it.

I used to get straight A's (expect the year that I missed 50 days of school, which was 5th grade). And everyone hated me for it. It wasn't like the other kids who studied hard and got straight A's. I never studied and still did it. Half the time, I would skip classes and still get straight A's. And I was always "different". I WANTED so much to fit in, though. I just wanted to have friends and I was always VERY lonely. That was probably the biggest mistake I ever made! In 9th grade, we used to have tests and I would always get 105 (or however many bonuses points there were). And my teachers, who meant well, but truly didn't understand, would announce it to the class. They were so "proud" of me, but were making my social life a nightmare. Other kids got jealous and then the teasing (God, was it unmerciful!!!) would start.

So, I started trying (on purpose) to get "dumber" grades. I figured out which were the hardest questions on the test and give the wrong answer on purpose, so that I only got 90 - 99. I figured that was still an A, but maybe the teachers would shut up about it. It didn't shut them up, though. I was in all honors classes, which really meant that I had to go to school with the tutored, pampered rich kids, who weren't smart either. And they HATED me. They would trip me going up the stairs and write notes to pass around in class about my teeth or my hair. It was AWFUL!

So the last semester of 9th grade, I started hanging out with the "dead heads" smoking (it took me 20 years to quit smoking again) in the bathrooms and generally not attending classes. I managed to get all of my grades down to a D, because I didn't want to fail and have to take it over (starting with Earth Science. The kids in that class were particularly mean). Every once in a while I would screw up and take one of those "aptitude" tests correctly and then the lectures would begin... "not living up to her potential", "should be getting A's". And I let all that fall on deaf ears because I was afraid that if I started getting A's again or "living up to my potential" that the few friends I had would turn on me. And more than anything, I wanted to be liked.

I dumbed myself down so much over the years that it was hard to come back and actually be able to talk once I met tkmorris. I had one ex-husband and one ex-boyfriend. Neither of them knew where Arizona was. Neither of them were very smart but I thought at the time that it really didn't matter, because they liked me. Even though I had to soak myself in alcohol to get through the relationships. And neither of them were the type that wanted to learn from me. If they said something that was incorrect and I tried to correct them, it would usually turn to abuse. I think they knew I was smarter than them and hated me for it.

It's hard to come back from that. In the beginning of tkmorris and my relationship, I remember we were both surprised at first to find someone who we could talk to. I remember before we moved in together, he was talking about something, and I understood what he was saying. He stopped right in the middle and said "You know what {the subject I forgot} is?". I said "Of course.". And I think that was it... the beginning.

I still act like an idiot sometimes because I go out in the world and dumb myself down when I talk to people. I don't have to do it nearly as much anymore, though, since I have tkmorris to come home to. I just tell people, "Sorry, I don't watch football {basketball, baseball} and leave it at that". Or "I don't watch reality shows". They all think I'm weird, but at least they don't say anything about it. And I'm a leader on my team and on my project, so I get a bit of validation from that. I'm assigned extra projects that challenge me and generally, it's not as bad as high school.

tkmorris and I have a daughter who is now 14 years old. And she is also "Gifted" although I'm not going to label her with that. We home-school her so that she doesn't go through what we went through. And many people disagree with that decision, but we both feel that it's the ONLY way she will not get stigmatized and abused by people who are less intelligent than she is. She has always been a loner and in Pre-K through 1st grade (the last grade she went to public school) she would finish her work and then "bother everyone" in class. She was always bored out of her mind. And they were talking about putting her on Ritalin, because she couldn't sit still for hours at a time with nothing to do. We didn't want to set her up for 30 years of trying to fit in culminating in a 37 year old woman who feels like she can't say she's smart or people won't like her.

And even as I write this, I feel like a conceited bitch for talking about myself as if I'm smarter than everyone. See how much the "Gifted" label has screwed me?

[Iniquitous Bunny]

206. This sounds like the most interesting part.

I was hesitant to say "Yeah :thumbsup:" because I didn't want to relish in the glory of the fact I did well on culturally-biased, standardized tests as a child and had some label attached because of that. (I'm not sure what good came out of it in a society so geared toward "blending".)

I was married before and I had to do the same thing. He was very intimidated by my brain and my ability to verbalize well what I did know, so I had to play this passive role to get along. In my current relationship, it's very different- egalitarianism involving two somewhat underachieving, quick minds who drive themselves crazy with our beautiful over-analyzing of everything. :woohoo:

[Hosnon]

185. The biggest advantage anyone can give a "gifted" child is to tell

him or her that success is 99% hard work. Natural ability carried me about halfway through college and then those that worked hard but were "less smart" began to outpace me.

A strong intellect will wither away very quickly if it is not supported by a strong work ethic.

[nosillies]

220. oooh, so true

[moondust]

199. I enjoy levitating. Does that count?

[mopinko]

253. can you post a pic?

a video, maybe?

[lumberjack_jeff]

293. Bah! It's nothing compared to the laser beams I can shoot out my eyes

I got 'yer 'gifted' right here. :)

[Joanne98]

204. I was declared, "stupid with an attitude" when I was a child.

I had an attitude, that was true. But I was never stupid. Ends up I had some kind of wierd learning disorder that hasn't been discovered yet. The most impressive thing I do is predict the future.
I don't do that anymore because it scares the shit out of people.

Example: I had a girlfriend, Rhonda, who lived next door to me in CA. She had a three year old daughter (who was a major brat) I worked nights. In the mornings I used to visit her for an hour then go to bed. One morning I was at her house and her daughter kept pulling on my dogs tail. I got irritated and told her, "If Sarah doesn't stop abusing the dogs, she's going to go down the street and get bite in the face by a dog she doesn't know". Then I left. The next morning I was at my mom's and the phone rang. I picked it up, it was Rhonda and she said" What are you, some kind of witch?" "Sarah just got out of the yard, went down the street and got bit in the face by a dog" I have a lot more examples like this.

I have an average IQ so I'm not gifted, but I'm something.....And I can't believe I'm even telling you guys this. But I think a gifted forum would be a great idea. Not for me though. I haven't been discovered yet. LOL!

[Hekate]

302. Wow, that's a cool talent.

Just a guess, but I think you're highly observant and literally see things others tune out. In a world of sleepwalkers, that can be very uncanny.
:hi:
Hekate

[demodonkey]

205. Make it so, Mopinko.

This is a very neglected area.

As one who is sick and tired of the attitude in society that "gifted" people should have NO troubles and go through life with a gold spoon in their mouths, I say that such a group would have much to discuss.

[slackmaster]

215. I'm still gifted

And still misunderstood.

[Chomskyite]

224. A formerly gifted and talented kid, now a college lit teacher

I think the teachers who praised my abilities and my near-pathological curiosity about literature and history could have been more truthful with me. Maybe they were right to encourage my habits (reading fluently at age 5, devouring literature, history and political texts at age 12), but I wish they'd guided me a little more to think practically.

Yes, I have a Ph.D. now and I'm about to take an tenure-track gig. But I think along the way I suffered unnecessarily from not being as practical as I should have been. I could have graduated far earlier. My dissertation called for expertise in several fields at once. I minored in US history when I didnt have to, adding another semester to my PhD bout. I struggled to make enough money to keep from being homeless. The only jobs I could get involved teaching writing (which I was slightly trained to do), which cannot be done in the large classes state colleges in Louisiana put freshmen into.

I have a hell of an anxiety disorder that requires some expensive drugs, never covered by insurance because I went from school to school through the late 90s teaching writing and had to start on a new insurance plan every year. So the $250 a month drugs that make it so I can function are always written off as treating a pre-existing condition.

I think my school district was only experimenting with ways to help children like me, just to be able to brag they had a program. But they didn't worry about much more than setting up puzzles, showing us films and sending us to Odyssey of the Mind.

[mopinko]

225. mission statement- talented and gifted individuals group- here

we need 10 people to approve this statement, and as to form this group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1647823

[davsand]

226. Does membership require "Does Not work to abilities" in my file?

You know--the PERMANENT RECORD we all heard about...

I always kind of thought it would be really liberating to re-test now (at this stage of my life) and find out that I was actually retarded and mis-categorized all those years. How would it feel to have actually EXCEEDED my abilities?



Laura

[shadowknows69]

228. That post made me laugh

I'm sure I have that in my file somewhere too. Used to get written on most of my report cards. I used to do little to no homework most of the year and then blow away the tests that actually determined my grades. Pissed my teachers, and no doubt hard working students, off to no end.

[Porcupine]

261. Yep, I did that a lot. Drove several teachers to distraction.

In the 2 years of high school that I actually went to I used to drift into my math classes on test days and ace the test; then cut till the next test day. Drove everybody around me bats. I couldn't survive more than 2 years of high school socially.

I have made several attempts at college and still am just shy of a degree. At one point I missed six questions in a college anatomy semester. Some other G/T nerd missed only 2 and beat me though. My primary failure in college was the inability to stomach the classes full of people who cared not one whit for the subject matter. Their interest starts and stops with "is it on the test?"

I'm doing maintenance for a property management firm now. People still think I'm weird but I'm VERY usefull to have around because of my ability to recall huge amounts of seemingly trivial data. The world is truly run by idiots who resent competence.

[incapsulated]

233. Although I have "left DU" I had to come back to lol at this post!

:D

Add "unmotivated", as well.

[mopinko]

238. i think this was mentioned upthread

could easily be THE test.

[ContraBass Black]

234. Would the group look like this thread?

[RandomKoolzip]

236. As a former gifted child myself, I have to say something here:

I know what it means to be a gifted kid with potential. I was moved up a grade in first grade, then I asked to be sent back because I missed the friends I'd made in Kindergarten. I was in all the "gifted kid" programs in junior high and high school. I wrote books in junior high, record reviews all through high school, and I taught myself how to read at three. I knew how to play the drums and read music at eight. By fifteen I could play three different musical instruments. I was my school's spelling bee champion in 5th Grade.


None of that means shit in everyday adult life.



Many of the posts in this thread smack of elitism; there's this overwhelming sense that many here, because of their experiences as "exceptional" children think that this history makes them "exceptional" adults. It doesn't. I don't consider myself batter or smarter than most people just because I was a gifted kid. I DO consider myself to me an average, common person as an adult. I can just imagine moderates viewing this thread in horror - "My god, the conservatives ARE right! Liberals really DO think that thy're better than us!"

As someone who now makes under 10 bucks an hour as a line cook, I gotta say that you can have potential out the ass and still end up part of the rabble, and there's no shame in this. Humans are beautiful, no matter what size, shape color, intelligence level, class, or gender.

[havocmom]

237. LOL A lot of us end up as 'underachievers'

possibly due to understanding that the rat race is FOR RATS. Humans follow other pursuits. Might not pay well, but some choose to do no harm in efforts to earn our daily nut. Some pick dignity over the fast track. Some of us like working with our hands and dealing with fellow humans in a humane manner. No shame at all.

The Type A's who thought they had it made are being cast aside by the corporations left, right and sideways these days now that their exploitable years are drawing to an end. Many have to try and adjust to lifestyles some of us picked decades ago.

Lower expectations have taken some of us a long way down the road to humanity, and even a little joy. ;)

[RandomKoolzip]

240. Precisely.

I may be pissed at the small amount of income I draw, but at least my conscience is clear. And I could never imagine myself in some corporate job. Plus, the working class KNOWS how to party better than the economic elite.

[idgiehkt]

244. I have to say that this post

has made me feel saner than I have felt in a very long time. If I had a job, I would give you some money just for saying that (lol).

[havocmom]

297. Hey, don't bother worrying about $ you can't send

I'll take good wishes and prayers if you are so inclined. Am looking at a lot of smoke and the possibility that this little town will have to evacuate by morning.

Send positive thoughts... ya got the mental gifts to focus. THAT I could use right now. ;)

[undergroundpanther]

242. So much for elitists

I am a loon toon who is on disability and lives in my moms house.

This is what gifted is for those offended by gifted people.


Perhaps the most universal, yet most often overlooked, characteristic of gifted children and adults is their intensity (Silverman, 1993; Webb, 1993). One mother described it succinctly when she said, "My child's life motto is that anything worth doing is worth doing to excess." Gifted children -- and gifted adults-- often are extremely intense, whether in their emotional response, intellectual pursuits, sibling rivalry, or power struggles with an authority figure. Impatience is also frequently present, both with oneself and with others. The intensity also often manifests itself in heightened motor activity and physical restlessness.

Along with intensity, one typically finds in gifted individuals an extreme sensitivity--to emotions, sounds, touch, taste, etc. These children may burst into tears while watching a sad event on the evening news, keenly hear fluorescent lights, react strongly to smells, insist on having the tags removed from their shirts, must touch everything, or are overly reactive to touch in a tactile-defensive manner.

The gifted individual's drive to understand, to question, and to search for consistency is likewise inherent and intense, as is the ability to see possibilities and alternatives. All of these characteristics together result in an intense idealism and concern with social and moral issues, which can create anxiety, depression, and a sharp challenging of others who do not share their concerns.

http://www.sengifted.org/articles_counseling/Webb_MisdiagnosisAndDualDiagnosisOfGiftedChildren.shtml


Is It A Cheetah?

Stephanie S. Tolan, M.A.

A Speech Given at the Hollingworth Conference
for the Highly Gifted, 1992

Stephanie Tolan is one of the co-authors of Guiding the Gifted Child

It's a tough time to raise, teach or be a highly gifted child. As the term "gifted" and the unusual intellectual capacity to which that term refers become more and more politically incorrect, the educational establishment changes terminology and focus.

Giftedness, a global, integrative mental capacity, may be dismissed, replaced by fragmented "talents" which seem less threatening and theoretically easier for schools to deal with. Instead of an internal developmental reality that affects every aspect of a child's life, "intellectual talent" is more and more perceived as synonymous with (and limited to) academic achievement.

The child who does well in school, gets good grades, wins awards and "performs" beyond the norms for his or her age is considered talented. The child who does not, no matter what his or her innate intellectual capacities or developmental level, is less and less likely to be identified, less and less to be served.

A cheetah metaphor can help us to see the problem with achievement-oriented thinking. The cheetah is the fastest animal on earth. When we think of a cheetah, we are likely to think first of its speed. It's flashy. It's impressive. It's unique. And it makes identification incredibly easy. Since cheetahs are the only animals that can run 70 mph, if you clock an animal running 70 mph, it must be a cheetah!

But cheetahs are not always running. In fact, they are able to maintain top speed only for a limited time, after which they need a considerable period of rest.

It's not difficult to identify a cheetah when it isn't running, provided we know its other characteristics. It is gold with black spots, like a leopard, but it also has unique black "tear marks" beneath its eyes. Its head is small, its body lean, its legs unusually long--all bodily characteristics critical to a runner. And the cheetah is the only member of the cat family that has non-retractable claws. Other cats retract their claws to keep them sharp, like carving knives kept in a sheath; the cheetah's claws are designed, not for cutting, but for traction. This is an animal biologically designed to run.

Its chief food is the antelope, itself a prodigious runner. The antelope is not large or heavy, so the cheetah doesn't need strength and bulk to overpower it. Only speed. On the open plains of its natural habitat, the cheetah is capable of catching an antelope simply by running it down.

While body design in nature is utilitarian, it also creates a powerful internal drive. The cheetah needs to run!

Despite design and need, however, certain conditions are necessary for it to attain its famous 70 mph top speed. It must be fully grown. It must be healthy, fit and rested. It must have plenty of room to run. Besides that, it is best motivated to run all out when it is hungry and there are antelope to chase.

If a cheetah is confined to a 10x12 foot cage, though it may pace or fling itself against the bars in restless frustration, it won't run 70 mph.

Is it still a cheetah?

If a cheetah has only 20 mph rabbits to chase for food, it won't run 70 mph while hunting. If it did, it would flash past its prey and go hungry! Though it might well run on its own for exercise, recreation or fulfillment of its internal drive, when given only rabbits to eat, the hunting cheetah will only run fast enough to catch a rabbit.

Is it still a cheetah?

If a cheetah is fed Zoo Chow, it may not run at all.

Is it still a cheetah?

If a cheetah is sick or if its legs have been broken, it won't even walk.

Is it still a cheetah?

And finally, if the cheetah is only six weeks old, it can't yet run 70 mph.

Is it, then, only a potential cheetah?

A school system that defines giftedness (or talent) as behavior, acheivement and performance is as compromised in its ability to recognize its highly gifted students and to give them what they need as a zoo would be to recognize and provide for its cheetahs if it looked only for speed.

When a cheetah does run 70 mph, it isn't a particularly "achieving" cheetah. Though it is doing what no other cat can do, it is behaving normally for a cheetah.

To lions, tigers, leopards--to any of the other big cats--the cheetah's biological attributes would seem to be deformities. Far from the "best cat," the cheetah would seem to be barely a cat at all. It is not heavy enough to bring down a wildebeest; its non-retractable claws cannot be kept sharp enough to tear the wildebeest's thick hide. Given the cheetah's tendency to activity, cats who spend most of their time sleeping in the sun might well label the cheetah hyperactive.

Like cheetahs, highly gifted children can be easy to identify. If a child teaches herself Greek at age five, reads at the eighth grade level at age six or does algebra in second grade, we can safely assume that this child is a highly gifted child. Though the world may see these activities as "achievements," she is not an "achieving" child so much as a child who is operating normally according to her own biological design, her innate mental capacity. Such a child has clearly been given room to "run" and something to run for. She is healthy and fit and has not had her capacities crippled. It doesn't take great knowledge about the characteristics of highly gifted children to recognize this child.

However, schools are to extraordinarily intelligent children what zoos are to cheetahs. Many schools provide a 10x12 foot cage, giving the unusual mind no room to get up to speed. Many highly gifted children sit in the classroom the way big cats sit in their cages, dull-eyed and silent. Some, unable to resist the urge from inside even though they can't exercise it, pace the bars, snarl and lash out at their keepers, or throw themselves against the bars until they do themselves damage.

Even open and enlightened schools are likely to create an environment that, like the cheetah enclosures in enlightened zoos, allow some moderate running, but no room for the growing cheetah to develop the necessary muscles and stamina to become a 70 mph runner. Children in cages or enclosures, no matter how bright, are unlikely to appear highly gifted; kept from exercising their minds for too long, these children may never be able to reach the level of mental functioning for which they were designed.

A zoo, however much room it provides for its cheetahs, does not feed them antelope, challenging them either to run full out or go hungry. Schools similarly provide too little challenge for the development of extraordinary minds. Even a gifted program may provide only the intellectual equivalent of 20 mph rabbits (while sometimes labeling children suspected of extreme intelligence "underachievers" for not putting on top speed to catch those rabbits!). Without special programming, schools provide the academic equivalent of Zoo Chow, food that requires no effort whatsoever. Some children refuse to take in such uninteresting, dead nourishment at all.

To develop not just the physical ability, but also the strategy to catch antelope in the wild, a cheetah must have antelopes to chase, room to chase them and a cheetah role model to show them how to do it. Without instruction and practice, they are unlikely to be able to learn essential survival skills.

A recent nature documentary about cheetahs in lion country showed a curious fact of life in the wild. Lions kill cheetah cubs. They don't eat them, they just kill them. In fact, they appear to work rather hard to find them in order to kill them (though cheetahs can't possibly threaten the continued survival of lions). Is this maliciousness? Recreation? No one knows. We only know that lions do it. Cheetah mothers must hide their dens and go to great efforts to protect their cubs, coming and going from the den only under deep cover, in the dead of night or when lions are far away. Highly gifted children and their families often feel like cheetahs in lion country.

In some schools, brilliant children are asked to do what they were never designed to do (like cheetahs asked to tear open a wildebeest hide with their claws--after all, the lions can do it!) while the attributes that are a natural aspect of unusual mental capacity--intensity, passion, high energy, independence, moral reasoning, curiosity, humor, unusual interests and insistence on truth and accuracy--are considered problems that need fixing. Brilliant children may feel surrounded by lions who make fun of them or shun them for their differences, who may even break their legs or drug them to keep them moving more slowly, in time with the lions' pace. Is it any wonder they would try to escape? Or put on a lion suit to keep from being noticed? Or fight back?

This metaphor, like any metaphor, eventually breaks down. Highly gifted children don't have body markings and non-retractable claws by which to be identified when not performing. Furthermore, the cheetah's ability to run 70 mph is a single trait readily measured. Highly gifted children are very different from each other, so there is no single ability to look for, even when they are performing. Besides that, a child's greatest gifts could be outside the academic world's definition of achievement and so go unrecognized altogether. While this truth can save some children from being wantonly killed by marauding lions, it also keeps them from being recognized for what they are--children with deep and powerful innate differences as all-encompassing as the differences between cheetahs and other big cats. That they may not be instantly recognizable does not mean that there is no means of identifying them. It means that more time and effort are required to do it. Educators can learn the attributes of unusual intelligence and observe closely enough to see those attributes in individual children. They can recognize not only that highly gifted children can do many things which other children cannot, but that there are tasks which other children can do that the highly gifted cannot.

Every organism has an internal drive to fulfill its biological design. The same is true for unusually bright children. From time to time the bars need to be removed, the enclosures broadened. Zoo Chow, easy and cheap as it is, must give way, at least some of the time, to lively, challenging mental prey.

More than this, schools need to believe that it is important to make the effort, that these children not only have the needs of all other children to be protected and properly cared for, but that they have as much right as others to have their special needs met.

Biodiversity is a fundamental principle of life on our planet. It allows life to adapt and to change. In our culture, highly gifted children, like cheetahs, are endangered. Like cheetahs, they are here for a reason; they fill a particular niche in the design of life. Zoos, whatever their limitations, may be critical to the continued survival of cheetahs; many are doing their best to offer their captives what they will need to eventually survive in the wild. Schools can do the same for their highly gifted children.

Unless we make a commitment to saving these children, we will continue to lose them, as well as whatever unique benefit their existence might provide for the human species of which they are an essential part.

Note: Copyright 1995, Stephanie S. Tolan. Properly attributed, this material may be freely reproduced and disseminated.

[Hekate]

304. The Cheetah metaphor practically brought tears to my eyes

I'd never read it before, but it has the ring of truth. Using the lion/cheetah comparison -- well, perhaps it will make some people in education understand the situation better.

Thanks for posting that.

Hekate

[mopinko]

243. well, nobody is gonna check your record, and make you join

i bet a lot of us would like to end up where you are. but i also know that the wish to be just an average person is something that a lot of us struggle with. it is a strong pull. and it causes a lot of pain. i'm sure it will be a favorite topic to talk about together. we would be happy to have your input.

[RandomKoolzip]

245. Well, honestly, it wasn't until I had a psychedelic experience....

that I realized that there was no shame in being "average." Up until then, I was looked at as some "golden child," this kid with massive reservoirs of untapped potential, who saw himself as superior to all his classmates and couldn't understand their petty everyday concerns.

I had a shattering experience with LSD in high school that completely changed my outlook on life, and especially my take on the "exceptional" vs. "average" debate. I realized that everyone is special, everyone is just as gifted as I am, and that my perceived "specialness" was just a raging ego. After that, I began talking to people I would have sniffily looked down upon and I saw the good qualities in them.

And as it became increasingly obvious that I wasn't going to live my life as some shooting-star prodigy, I gradually came to accept my averageness, and also work politically on behalf of "average" people like myself. After all, liberal politics is specifically about benefitting the great numbers of average people out there, people struggling to make do on limited resources - the vast majority of Americans, in other words. I think one of the reasons so may poor and rural voters turn to conservatism is that they see so many liberal politicans as these super-smart, super-rich, removed intellectuals who keep talking about helping THEM, which they interpret as condescension. There shouldn't be a stigma attached to being "normal" or "average," nor should contempt for those groups be a plank on the liberal platform, lest we want to give lie to the very ideas and policies we hold nearest and dearest - after all, how can we sincerely fight for a living wage if the people who would benefit the most from such a policy are seen as pitiable "straights" and "normals?"

These are just my thoughts on this subject - I could be wrong, and as always, YMMV.

[mopinko]

246. i don't look down at "them", they look sideways at me!

i have a huge craving for human interaction that has often been stymied, not just by jealousy, etc, but by a lot of the personality traits that a lot of gifted people share. ie- i am very sensitive to emotions, mine and other peoples. this is very common. you might think that this would make relationships easier. not. it leads to a whole spaghetti bowl of trouble. like being easily hurt by ordinary negative emotions, especially when that person does not even realize that they are telegraphing them. like not accepting this as a gift on my part, being skittish about all my "not normal traits", being scared of it, trying to block it out. i am finally accepting that it is a gift, starting to trust it, and hopefully, send the spiral in a positive direction.
here's another- gifted people tend to have a strong desire for fairness and truth. i don't think i even need to give an example of how this supposedly good thing can cause trouble.
this is not about looking down at people, AT ALL. it is just about a chance to be ourselves, and be understood. and to help the next generation, as well.

[ulysses]

276. hello!

after all, how can we sincerely fight for a living wage if the people who would benefit the most from such a policy are seen as pitiable "straights" and "normals?"

:thumbsup:

[kiahzero]

287. So if you're not average, you should lie about yourself?

That seems to be what you're advocating, because you seem to be conflating recognizing that one is exceptionally intelligent with looking down upon those that aren't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

265. Very well said, but don't sell yourself short...

...this post suggests that you are an exceptional adult.

My IQ has been measured in the 90th+ percentile, but I find nothing more tedious than being forced to spend large blocks of time in the company of people who feel that fraternizing with the hoi-polloi is beneath them.

I'm an engineer by training, but I live in an area dominated by the forest products industry. I think I've chosen my nom d'plume subconsciously.

[kiahzero]

283. Who said anything about shame?

The idea of superiority came into this thread by people attacking the idea.

[kiahzero]

248. Maybe this is just my G/T elitism speaking

But I don't understand why this is so controversial.

[muriel_volestrangler]

249. People self-selecting as "more talented than the normal herd"?

In the Democratic Party? No, I can't imagine why that would be controversial. Democratic tradition is all about dividing people into groups of 'better' and 'worse', isn't it?

[kiahzero]

250. Heaven forbid people try to associate with others with similar problems

Especially when social isolation is one of the problems being discussed.

[stepnw1f]

256. Great Reply (nt)

[mopinko]

251. how about respect for differences?

nobody, but nobody who wants this group said anything about better or worse. i think it is a core principle of the democratic party that people are all different, that diversity is strength, that different talents should be nurtured, and that all people should be free to associate with whomever they please.
self selecting is bad? supporting each other is bad? maybe it is you who is in the wrong party.

[muriel_volestrangler]

257. "Better" and "worse" come with the "talented" and "gifted" divisions

that you're making. As I said in the other thread, your "safe place to let our brains hang out" remark is just going to put a huge "elitist" target on the group. You include people who are talented at business (ie an overwhelmingly adult activity) so it looks like a simple "we're the best here!" claim, rather than a discussion about education and socialising skills.

There has been some good humour generated at the expense of the idea already, so something's come from this.

[mopinko]

259. you are reading things into it that ARE NOT THERE

it is just such thinking that we are trying to get away from. whatever it looks like to you, it is coming from you and who you are. not from the people who want this group. we are who we are. we were born who we are. we have been the targets of just this kind of prejudice all our lives. we want a place to get away from it. feel free to not join. but ask yourself why you have to attack us.

[muriel_volestrangler]

262. I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your suggestion for a statement

which I think is deeply flawed. If you get the statement right, then the group won't be used as a target, and a stick to beat DU with. Get it wrong, and it'll be bad for the whole of DU. The Site That Shall Not Be Named has already suggested "Albatross" for the group name, and they could be right.

[mopinko]

263. live your life for the freepers if you like

i cannot think of a more likely hot bed of jealousy. we will be glad to have a group that is restricted to donors.

[ulysses]

274. you're making the assumption

that the admins will create a group with restricted posting rights.

[mopinko]

281. all du groups are restricted

you must have a star to post in the groups.

[fishwax]

299. you're looking to the STSNBN for guidance on DU's development?

who cares what they say?

[muriel_volestrangler]

307. No, but I suspect that attitude would be common

DU does has one advantage - groups like this don't appear on the main forum page, so you'd have to search thoroughly to find it, or get a link from someone else. So at least it won't put off random 'drop-ins' to DU (I know I'd think anywhere with a special section for the talented was weird; I'd have to check it wasn't some eugenics-based board, or an inner/outer membership setup). I think the group would be a general butt of jokes (which is fine, if we don't visit the sites), but also used as an example of how DU, and by extension Democrats, are elitist.

But I think that a place for the talented brains to hang out isn't needed. If you have a brilliant thought about something, then post it in the existing forums, and wait to see if it get replies, or gets voted onto the Greatest page. I have never seen an anti-intellectual attitude at DU, from anyone (and we manage to argue about just about everything else); it has been the proposal of this group that has produced the remarks that the "talented and gifted" now say prove the need for the group. I think the idea that people who are particularly talented at sport need a special place here, on an internet forum, is frankly laughable.

[fishwax]

331. I think that is a little overwrought

It's just a DU Group. These are designed so that people with common interests, problems, etc. have a place to meet. We have a ton of groups about a variety of different interests. If somebody on the web wants to make our astrology group the butt of jokes or cite our classical automobile enthusiasts group as proof that we don't really care about fossil fuel reduction, then whatever. The suggestion that a group of people discussing the challenges and/or opportunities of their condition makes DU and Democrats elitist seems to me akin to the logic that any democrats speaking out against the war or the president are unpatriotic and hate america. That kind of logic ought not be catered to.

Of course those with a brilliant thought can post it in the existing forums. That's not the point of this group. Nor is the point of this group to retreat from or react to anti-intellectualism on DU, as you seem to imply. And it seems from the mission statement that those who are particularly talented at sport would be welcome in the group.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. If people with common problems or challenges want a place to discuss them, it seems to me like a good thing. Having above average intelligence (or being tagged "gifted" in some other respect) doesn't make someone better or worse than anyone else, but it can bring challenges and opportunities that are different than the challenges and opportunities faced by others. And if a group of people want to gather and discuss those challenges and opportunities, I think it's great that DU provides them a means to do that.

[Cerridwen]

258. My understanding of the Democratic party is that it is a party

for a movement in which all are welcome to come together to celebrate their differences while gathering together in affinity groups to safely explore those differences which collectively define the unifying nature of the diversity of the whole.

In short, "we are greater than the sum of our parts."

But hey, what do I know? I'm one of those "know it alls" who forms opinions which sometimes lead me to "state the (previously unnoticed) obvious" and who is "uppity" enough to "audaciously" speak "my mind." I mean, really, what kind of person thinks their opinion matters?

[NC_Nurse]

268. I'll check it out...

I was in the Gifted and Talented program in high school. I'm classically underachieving now. HA!
Maybe it's because I see "the hilarious pointlessness of human endeavor" a quote from a book on the challenge of being a Pisces - which I also am...:-)

[wellstone dem]

270. Hmm

I was a gifted child. I started to read at 3, and as a result my Dad had me tested. I learned later there was discussion about sending me off to boarding school because of concern that I wouldn't reach my potential. But apparently common sense won out and I went to the same small country school that my brothers and sisters did. I remember one time getting in trouble because I answered a question when the teacher was only half way through (she said "and" and I thought she said "Ann." Another time I got in trouble because I made a face when the teacher told me to put down the book I was reading so that she could read to the class. (She sent me to the "cloak room" with my book, so I have always wondered if she understood, as it wasn't much of a punishment.) I had teachers who publically shamed me because I wasn't neat, and I thought I was just average because it was the kids who were good in art who seemed to get the attention. (Or maybe it was just that I craved that attention, I so wanted to be good in art.) After 5th grade, my small country catholic school closed and I transferred to a slightly larger public school, where I and 10 other kids were allowed to work ahead in math and reading, but we got no special help other than being given additional tests.

So now as a 50+ adult, I manage 3 offices working to meet the needs of low-income people. I have friends and a daughter of whom I am very proud.

So without much of a gifted and talented program how did I succeed. Well, I guess it's because no one ever told me I was smart. Mom worked with me at home, but I thought that was just playing school, which I loved to do. We didn't have a TV, but we had an encyclopedia, which I read when I had finished the library books. My parents required community and family service, which was praised more than good grades and other accomplisihments. I was once described by a friend (who in our youth had started an IQ comparison contest and I beat him by 1) as one of the most normal people he'd ever met.

I am so glad that I didn't get sent to boarding school, or a separate program. I'm so glad I had the priviledge of a good education, and college, and professional school. And as far as whether I've achieved my potential...I guess that's up to me now. I need to take what gifts I've been given and use them the best I can.

I'll pass on the group, as I've got work to do.

[NC_Nurse]

271. Reverse snobbery!

I love it! :D
When I said I was underachieving, I meant from a status/monetary perspective, which is what lots of people don't get about me.
I'm VERY busy and I take care of plenty of poor, disadvantaged, smart and retarded people every day.

[wellstone dem]

290. Yessss finally

I've been called a snob!!!!!


I think this thread proves everyone is different, and has different experiences.

(And I am sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive to any one, but should have realized my post was not understanding of the pain some people have felt.)

[brokensymmetry]

277. Good idea.

I think the group should be added.

[Jeroen]

278. Can I have my ADHD group, thnx?!!!!!

On edit: I needed more exclamation marks. Sorry!!!!!!

[symbolman]

279. I've always loved this poem by Bukowski

I think it says it all, and is more appropriate now than ever:

"The Genius Of The Crowd

there is enough treachery, hatred violence absurdity in the average
human being to supply any given army on any given day

and the best at murder are those who preach against it
and the best at hate are those who preach love
and the best at war finally are those who preach peace

those who preach god, need god
those who preach peace do not have peace
those who preach peace do not have love

beware the preachers
beware the knowers

beware those who are always reading books

beware those who either detest poverty
or are proud of it

beware those quick to praise
for they need praise in return

beware those who are quick to censor
they are afraid of what they do not know

beware those who seek constant crowds for
they are nothing alone

beware the average man the average woman
beware their love, their love is average
seeks average

but there is genius in their hatred
there is enough genius in their hatred to kill you
to kill anybody

not wanting solitude
not understanding solitude

they will attempt to destroy anything
that differs from their own

not being able to create art
they will not understand art

they will consider their failure as creators
only as a failure of the world
not being able to love fully

they will believe your love incomplete
and then they will hate you
and their hatred will be perfect

like a shining diamond
like a knife
like a mountain
like a tiger
like hemlock

their finest art

************************

Poor gifted people are the ones who get BORED as they watch the Mediocre catered to endlessly - Michelangelo complained of the "Loneliness" as a precocious person.

I've excelled in a lot of disciplines, but the biggest battle is to remain humble in spite of what you may know that others do not - and recognize the different modes of intelligence and genius in others.. Not long ago a psychologist put forth the notion that there are different levels and modes of capacity, From abstract thinking skills to physical prowess, and that we all fit into these catagories at different levels for each mode. I believe he came up with 7 catagories, and with no real tests available to measure creativity (and creativity is useless without motivation), I thought it was a good concept.

Remember Bukowski's words above, but also never forget the wisdom of my own sister who once remarked to me, "Remember, the Mediocre are doing Their Very Best.." :)

[ulysses]

280. Howard Gardner

Not long ago a psychologist put forth the notion that there are different levels and modes of capacity

[symbolman]

285. Ah thanks

I'd forgotten, but found it really persuasive..

Appreciate it :)

[ulysses]

286. he seems to be falling out of favor

but I've always found him enlightening.

[symbolman]

291. Pitchforks and torches

of the Pop Psychology crowd? :)

I worked in a mental asylum, actually two of them over the span of a year, one of my jobs was to monitor the patients who really didn't communicate as they went about their ways for physical pain, made me an empath, I have trouble in crowds now as I can "see" pain and how it might progress in groups of individuals, and that hurts ME..

Had to read all of their case histories and know them as well as I could as part of the job..

That being said I think that considering the spectrum of humanity his work makes sense.. It reminds me of an audio Equalizer, each person has a percentage of each modality, like setting your IPod to "Rock" or "World Beat"...

Plus it's in flux, say a person takes a course in Martial arts, then their physical prowess mode goes up, maybe the abstract thinking mode as well, when they realize that "the thorn is there to protect the rose" or whichever spiritual or Zen teaching goes along with the class.

Speaking of symbolism and spirituality I always loved Joseph Campbell's rationalization for the existence of God. The fact that a person will dive into water to save a drowning victim when the self preservation mode is considered the most powerful force in many creatures - goes beyond instinct in a human, and I find it beautiful and enlightening to have him make that observation :)

Thanks for reminding me of that work, I'm going to have a look at it again, now that I've aged a little more, funny how as you age everything can change, and you get the choice of being jaded or enlightened there as well :)

[bicentennial_baby]

289. gifted child, s-m-r-t adult here...

:rofl: Are you people for real? Going around calling people 'mundanes' and 'less-than-gifted'?! Bwahahahahaha! Yeah, you will get really far with that line of thinking...

This brainiac will not be participating...yikes! :wow:

:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

292. when i went to lutheran schools40 years ago...

there was no testing or accomodations made for "gifted" children- i was often scolded for participating too much in class, and that i should hold back at let other kids have a chance(although i was often the only one raising my hand with answers or additional questions).
i always did well on tests, especially the standardized ones- i was a national merit scholar on the psat, and in the 99th percentile in all sections of the ACT- don't ask me about the SAT- i didn't take it, as my high school didn't stress it.

[kiahzero]

294. Hey, I got that too

Let it internalize a bit too much, as I still have a problem with it.

[mopinko]

301. what should we call them?

or should we pretend we are from lake wobegone?

[bicentennial_baby]

316. Maybe you should stop labeling people

According to their supposed intelligence of giftedness...Just a thought. :shrug:

[mopinko]

317. labeling

nobody is going to have to fax me their iowa scores, or their transcripts. we are labeling ourselves. we can do that, ya know. we can choose to associate with people who share a common set of personality attributes. gifts, problems, challenges.
why this is bugging people so, i cannot say. but the level of shit being thrown at these threads ought to horrify anyone who thinks that this is a progressive and tolerant place.

[bicentennial_baby]

318. I'm sorry, but

do you have any clue how condescending the word 'mundane' is, especially when used in reference to another person? It's really not that difficult to comprehend, imho.

[mopinko]

319. i don't think i used that word

i usually just say normal. is that hurtful?
do you have any idea how hurtful these allegations of elitism are? it is really not that hard to comprehend, imho.

[bicentennial_baby]

322. not you, but others...

have used that word, in the threads about this group...

I didn't say 'elitist', as far as I know. I just see the whole thing as being unnecessarily divisive, I guess.

[mopinko]

324. and yet you jump in

to divide.

[Batgirl]

330. Do you honestly not understand how remarks such as

"The mediocrities pretty much own the world; we can have our own little DU group corner of it where we're not bound to be sensitive to their obscured vision and slower, less complex thought processes."

would garner some of these negative reactions? And before I, too, am written off as another "jealous mediocrity," I do have real empathy for the pain and confusion in many of the personal stories in this thread, since many of them could have been written by me. But you must see the obnoxiousness of certain comments which focus on the perceived superiority of being misunderstood geniuses.

You say you are merely labeling yourselves, but it seems that in order to differentiate yourselves, you must label others -- as muggles, as mediocrities, as less than. This is a turn-off for many people, even those who could easily qualify for membership in the group. When I hear people of less than superior intelligence being referred to in such disparaging terms, I feel revolted.

I am quite familiar with that feeling of alienation, of being different, the suspicion that everyone else was issued a laminated card at birth, bearing instructions on how to be a normal person -- but at some point I realized those feelings are not just the special province of the "gifted and talented." As I've gotten older, I've learned that many others have secretly felt the same way, regardless of how conventional they seemed. It turns out that the inner certainty that you're a fucked up weirdo who doesn't fit in, is actually the dark unspoken secret carried by many if not most humans, especially when they're young. They blame it on whatever attribute seems most likely. Smart kids, who are usually well aware of being smart, are likely to put the blame on that. Shy, socially awkard types who are also high IQ/gifted, are likely to blame the latter for the former. But there are plenty of shy, socially awkward people all along the IQ spectrum, and they aren't likely to associate the 2 traits.

I wish I could reassure anyone who feels like a weirdo outcast, that you're all pretty normal in the grand scheme of things. I wish I could travel back in time to reassure my 9-year-old self of that. Most people with any sense of self awareness have similar feelings and doubts. It's anything but unique. Funny how that realization can be a relief, yet depressing at the same time.

[bigmonkey]

303. Discussion of intelligence is political.

Some of the troll-like posts may be calling attention to it inadvertently. Is it possible for a society to meet the needs of folks who are above-average intelligence, or are they all on their own? Can the left deal with differences in intelligence? Is it wrong to admit they exist, or should we admit that they exist and craft programs in school to take them into account, or must all discussion of existing above-average intelligence simply be clandestine so that no-one feels excluded?

Some options:

1)In public schools, you could refuse to recognize that there are any differences in intelligence if they are above the norm. This would mostly be on ideological grounds, either a left perspective that recognizing this would hurt the democratic values in society, or a right perspective that the abnormal need to conform.

2)In public schools, you could recognize that there are differences in intelligence beyond the norm, and either craft programs to deal with them to help "gifted" children to cope, or deliberately refuse to craft such programs, assuming that the "gifted" children mainly need to fit in and the best way to help them is a "sink or swim" approach in with the rest of the kids.

3)In social interactions, you could accept that there are people of above-average intelligence, and accept that they need to explore and discuss problems of coping specific to their situation, or you could accept that there are people of above-average intelligence, but think that they need to keep quiet about it for ideological reasons, i.e. so no-one feels put down.

I'm not a parent. I wish this group success, and I've followed these threads with interest. But my whole life I have seen parents wanting their own kids' special needs taken into account, and this makes sense individually, but parents also see education as a ticket into society, so they don't want their kids denied anything and hence don't like stratification in school via programs. Although, for some reason, they are willing to accept stratification via grades - maybe because they can yell at the kid individually, and so feel some control. People complain about the dumbing down of schools, but want the Lake Woebegone solution, where all the kids are above average. The right hits the left's hesitance to see difference and suggests they smooth everything out too much, and the left hits the right's "winners vs. losers" approach that discards lives cruelly.

I think this discussion could be very fruitful.

[petgoat]

306. I know someone who had that problem.

Told when he was a child that he could do anything he wanted with his life, he
found when he was grown that they really only meant law school or biz school or
med school.

Aptitude tests were the funnest thing in school, which grew slower and more boring
through the years--until college brought actual challenges.

Working jobs far below his potential, he had many bosses who lacked vision and
wasted his time and feared his abilities. He entertained himself on the job
through troublemaking, and never had a boss he could ask for a refence, ever.

He once said "Everybody's trying to hard just to be a part of the oyster.
I think I'd rather be a pearl."

[aikoaiko]

312. No offense meant, but most of you sound like the kids of uber rich

So misunderstand, so much pain, so bored, so many bad decisions, so many wasted opporunities, so many people didn't appreciate me, so many people didn't help me more even though I had the intellectual advantage.

:shrug:

[mopinko]

320. somehow

i find it hard to believe you did not mean any offense.
:shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

329. "no offense meant, but allow me, please, to render offense..."

Yeah. :eyes:

I have long said and thought that the issues surrounding the gifted are, in many ways, similar (even if not in kind, in degree) to the issues surrounding the mentally retarded and intellectually handicapped.

And I have long wondered why we, as a society, have special places for the mentally handicapped to go that will meet their needs in learning, but mostly we don't do this for the gifted. Thankfully, in the last couple decades this has begun to change, but we have a long ways to go yet. All we have now are AP classes (or quivalent) but nothing in terms of also teaching the life skills that will be necessary for the gifted.

I think we really need four educational systems: one for the mentally disabled, one for those who are otherwise normal but have learning disabilities, one for the regular folk, and one for the highly intelligent. They all have vastly different needs, and it serves no one well to lump them together into one all-inclusive pedagogical rubric. They have different needs in terms of intellectual curiosity, the way they learn, the speed at which they can take in information, and interests. The standard 50-minute classroom lecture that is the basis of our education system doesn't work except for the normal (and even then, not for all of them; and even then, it's still not the best system, IMO); the mentally retarded need a hands-on, slower approach; and the gifted need a process that engages them directly and allows individual exploration.

So, it isn't whining, aikoaiko - there are legitimate differences, and the complaints of the gifted - just as the complaints of the mentally handicapped - are real, valid, and legitimate.

[donsu]

315. for gifted who could not go to college - a lonely life

not unhappy life, just a lonely life

[mopinko]

321. i went to college

a couple of times. it was not that much better.
one thing a lot of us struggle with is the fear that we are impostors. that we will be found out. that was really big for me. i went to the school of the art institute of chicago, a very prestigious school. i felt the whole time that i did not deserve to be there. i just recently accepted that they did not let me in because they felt sorry for me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

323. Wow - many fearful, jealous, spiteful haters here. We DO need a group!

Holy crap! I can't believe the jealousy, hatred, and fear being shown by some people who feel the need to come into the discussion and tell us why we DON'T need a group for gifted people, driven by their own spite and jealousy and fear.

That just makes it all the more apparent that a group IS needed; but we need to find a way to keep the hateful, spiteful, insanely jealous muggles and mundanes out - since the whole problem with being gifted was the assholes who feared smart people and made our lives hell in school, and sometimes even make our lives hell in the real world of adulthood.

Why is it okay to have groups for hobbies and other interests, but as soon as the gifted overly smart people say "Can we have a group?", a bunch of people come out of the woodwork to stomp on us?

Oh, I know why - because America is intolerant toward intelligence (though American freely use the spoils of intelligent people, such as technology) and fears smart people.

[mopinko]

326. just ask al gore

how america feels about smart people. i honestly hurt for the ones who are gifted, but upset about this.
i love calling them muggles. does that make me a witch?
du rules forbid people who do not support the mission of a group from posting. i trust that bs posts will be taken down quickly.

[redqueen]

325. i would appreciate that, yes

my daughters are now in grade school and i'd like access to as many resources as possible to help them avoid the pitfalls i didn't.

[mopinko]

328. i have no doubt that parenting will be a frequent topic

i know that has been the hardest thing for me.
welcome aboard.

[raccoon]

332. Former gifted child here.

Only we didn't have any kind of gifted/talented program in the schools I attended. I went to school in a poor county of a poor state.

When I was in fourth grade, our class took a standardized test that showed I could do ninth grade work.

School bored me out of my gourd. The work was too easy. I could get by without effort, so I didn't put forth any. Unfortunately, that got me into a habit that's hard to break.

I almost didn't go to college because I thought it would be the same old thing. Luckily for me, I did and I really loved it.

At the time I finished high school (late 1960's) girls were still being told to get some education beyond high school just to have something to fall back on, in case you were widowed/divorced and had to work. Girls were still told to be teachers, nurses, secretaries.

I majored in English--because it was easy. I wish now I'd had more encouragement in math or science. Not that there's anything wrong with majoring in English.

I am now happily underemployed in a job I like. As the world views it, I'm not a "success" in terms of being a professional success, having made lots of money, etc.

I've had lots of the problems others have mentioned here. One has been a lack of people who I could talk to about topics I wanted to talk about. Another is isolation, partly due to this.

[Skinner]

334. Locking

The group has been requested and admin has chosen to decline.