Sometimes, Albeit Rarely, DU'ers Really Shock The Fuck Out Of Me....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

Such as when hundreds of them proclaim "Fuck them both" in regards to Israel and Lebanon.

Sometimes one must take one's head out of one's collective ass and step away from the world of meaningless blog anyone-can-type-it rhetoric and realize that these are every bit as much human beings as any single fuckin one of us are. There are children dying here. Fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers and babies dying here. The war, the bombs, the death are all real, as they are in Iraq. People are dying. Innocent people are dying. Who knows how many more countless innocent people will die.

How oh how, DU, can hundreds of you proclaim so readily "Fuck Them Both". Maybe you should look in a few days at some pictures of the innocent dead, if they surface, and see if you say Fuck Them Both then.

"Fuck Them Both"... ...Just plain shameful.

[melnjones]

1. It's a helluva lot harder to think that way

when you have connections to people in one or both locations. My friend is from Lebannon, now living here and married, but her family is still in Beirut. Christian family, does amazing social service work where they live, but live 10 miles from the airport. I haven't heard an update from her today about her family...there may be no update to give if the phones aren't working. If we could all only put a familiar face on the conflict, we would look at it so very differently...

[benburch]

2. Well, I will say "A pox on both your houses"...

There are innocent dead on both sides of this now, and in the past as long as I can remember. The guys with the heavy weapons needed to hold their fire and deal with minor breaches of the peace as police matters. On both sides. I am firmly convinced that both sides hate the other so badly that only genocide of one or the other is likely to end this unless the whole freaking world in the form of the armed might of the UN steps in and forces bilateral disarmament.

[roguevalley]

32. the only side I am on is the people who are as helpless with their

idiots -in Israel, Lebanon- as we are with ours.

[mzteris]

3. I don't think anyone means

"the people" -

I think they're referring to all the @holes who are making the decisions to bomb, kill, maim, attack, counter-attack, kidnap, oppress, posture, pose, and generally make asses of themselves and victims of everyone around them.

(Kinda like the admin here.)

[Boojatta]

5. "Kinda like" ... I assume you mean the White House admin, not the DU admin

;-)

[mzteris]

54. oh! Absolutely!!

:blush:

I'm sorry if *anyone* may thought otherwise. :(

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. The Below Gives Me Reason To Disagree

"I couldn't care less what happens to Israel"

"Let them battle it out for themselves"

"Let them have at it and keep out of it"

"I wish a tidal surge on the whole area washing away all the so called "holy" sites and submerged like the fabled Atlantis"

"Israel has always been whiney bastards that wanted every inch of land they could get their hands on"

"Let them fuck each other."

[brentspeak]

13. The thing you need to keep in mind about DU

-- or any public web board for that matter -- is that this is just an almost unregulated grouping of the unwashed masses. There are people here who claim to be Democrats when they're not; there are people who should be posting on ultra left-wing sites, but don't (they know more people will read them here than elsewhere); there are people who enjoy trolling and disrupting these boards because they have nothing better to do.

If I had more time, I'd put in to be a moderator. I'd probably boot out some of the extreme posters that you cited, so that reasonable people could discuss things intelligently.

[mzteris]

56. what the other poster said, AND

- sometimes people DO just get frustrated and just say "F - everyone!" though they don't *really* mean EVERYONE (as in children and other innocent parties), I'm pretty sure.


The thing that TRULY annoys me the very most about any discussion involving Israel - is that people automatically accuse you of being "anti-semitic" or "anti-Jewish" if you don't support them.

I HATE what the government of Israel has done and is doing. That does not mean I "hate Jews".
(Just like I HATE Bush - but I don't hate Methodists and I don't hate caucasians (depending on whether you're using "Jewish" to depict race OR religion.)

And it SHOULD go without saying that I HATE what "the other side(s)" are doing, too. FYI - I eschew war, terrorism, bombing, killing, murder, maiming, violence for ALL parties. There HAS to be - and IS - a "better way".

Of course, to be honest, I'm reaching a point in my life where I just want to say "F" all RELIGIONS because I think a very great deal of the strife in this world can find it's roots in "religious ideologies".

"GOD" did NOT "promise the JEWS any land" anywhere. It is NOT their "GOD-given" right.

"ALLAH" did NOT "promise the MUSLIMS any land" anywhere. It is NOT their "ALLAH-given right.

"GOD" did NOT "promise the CHRISTIANS" anything. The fact that some are just itching for - and trying to machinate Armeggedon in order to hasten the "end of the world" and "JESUS"" return - just shows what mass delusion can do.

[vickitulsa]

76. I agree with you, especially on the part about religions.

Fanatics of all kinds and sects have caused more bloodshed and mayhem and plain old EVIL than any other source, IMO. It's probably provable historical fact!

"The faithful" are not harmless. They never have been, in spite of the good deeds that many "believers" have done. The wickedness they have done far outweighs the good, far as I can see....


P.S. If this shoe doesn't fit you, don't put it on, btw. :)

[The Straight Story]

4. I think, perhaps, the reason is:

Because they keep causing such deaths due to being plain stubborn. They don't care that they are killing each other's mothers-fathers-kids-etc. And if they want to keep doing that and not stop, then fuck em both for keeping this hell going on.

Of course I think people mean that about the governing bodies in relation to it all and not the people.

[uppityperson]

7. reading that thread it seems some do mean "the people"

the sentiments against those who perpetuate violence I can see, but why are there so many posts "fuck them all", and let them kill each other? Perhaps I also am reading too much into these words, but it seems like that to me too and I am ashamed at those who write this. My problem perhaps, but there it is.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Unfortunately Yes.

I thought so too. These are some quotes I pulled and posted above.

"I couldn't care less what happens to Israel"

"Let them battle it out for themselves"

"Let them have at it and keep out of it"

"I wish a tidal surge on the whole area washing away all the so called "holy" sites and submerged like the fabled Atlantis"

"Israel has always been whiney bastards that wanted every inch of land they could get their hands on"

"Let them fuck each other."

[Clark2008]

24. Maybe they should fuck each other more.

Make love, not war. :hippie:

[MADem]

8. OK, how about CHOOSE ONE??????

Because, no matter what side you come down on, you are gonna get some shit here.

Hizb'Allah is nuts, and they aren't gonna quit. The Israeli state has become a parody of cruelty in their treatment of Palestine.

So yeah, I can see the "Fuck them both" attitude.

The only way that biz is gonna work is if BOTH sides are taken off the table and the entire region is policed by the UN.

But that ain't gonna happen.

[helderheid]

9. I choose none. I choose to sit quietly and invision our hearts all

connected - that our wants are the same. That our fears are the same. I choose to recognize the love in all their hearts because I CANNOT DO ANYTHING else.

[MADem]

14. That's nice....and let me tell you, if you were living in Beirut, a bomb

would hit your house while you were doing that love-recognizing. Your family would eventually get a cable from the State Department.

In Lebanon, anyone who could head for the Syrian border has done so. They're piled up, begging to get across, and onward to airports if they are from other nations. Paying robber's prices for tickets to anywhere, Ankara, Istanbul, any-fucking-where.

Those that cannot escape the nation have run to grampa's country farm and are sleeping in a vegetable dugout, hoping like hell they have an apartment to go home to when this all ends.

Love in hearts is all well and good, but when an Israeli jet is strafing your damn neighborhood because some Hizb'Allah asshole lives down the street, you find that your heart holds not much more than a pile of fear and a heap of anger.

We are the world is nice, but we aren't the world. For the most part, we are a bunch of mean assholes.

Would that it were different, but it ain't.

[helderheid]

68. I know where you're coming from but it's not where I'm coming from.

[Bluerthanblue]

66. Once again Helderheid, you and OMC give me

reason to believe-
And if while choosing to invision our hearts all connected, and to refuse to repay hurt for hurt, it means I die- then I die- Believe me, I'd far sooned die, than become a party to a brick in the wall of hatred, violence and rage, which only seperates the beings of this world from one another, and causes untolled suffering, death and destruction.

WE ARE ALL made of exactly the 'same stuff'- our bodies all need the name nutrients to thrive, we all bleed the same color blood, and we all die--- Those are givens- how we CHOOSE to use the life we have been given, to join in killing or to stand against it- even at the cost of 'EVERYTHING'- is what makes us people who desire a 'better way' or people who refuse to step out of the old, failed, destructive patterns of force, murder, hatred, and oppression.

Better dead in body and spirit, than walking around in a body that carries a dead womans soul, being used to reap more destruction.

peace will come- it must come-
may there be people left alive to recieve it-

blu

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Human Life Is More Important To Me Than Whether I Get Shit Or Not...

I don't need to take sides. I merely need to continue having a heavy heart and traumatized demeanor at a new war causing innocent death and continue hoping with all my might that this resolves somehow and that lives can be spared. That's the side I'm on: The side of peace. The side of not wanting either to throw bombs at civilians and to hope and pray they come to their senses and back off. I'm on the side of not wanting any human life destroyed. I don't need to take sides to feel that way. I just need to feel that way. To feel how disturbing this all is. To feel how sad it all is. To want it to stop. To say God bless them both and may he give them the strength to come to their senses. That's the side I'm on. And if anyone wants to give me shit for taking that side they can kiss my friggin ass.

[parasim]

15. Well, I agree with you 100% there...

I just wish there was a way to get both sides in that conflict to see it that way.

[MADem]

27. No, you've a right to feel that way, most do, at the core of it all

But I will tell you, if you are in a neighborhood that is under fire, your first instinct is to find a way to get the fuck out of there. If it's just local insurgents, you head for the dugout/basement and wait for them to leave, and hope no one busts in and tosses your place.

If it's overhead bombing, ya gotta grab your shit and run.

It is sad, but these folks will feel sad later...for now, they just wanna live. Like we all do, you see.

[tuvor]

40. That should be its own post.

Thank you.

[Guaranteed]

42. It's so important that you refuse to stand up against what both sides

are doing.

As far as you're concerned, it seems, they can just go ahead and kill each other all they want, blamelessly.

Not me. Both sides are behaving in an absolutely inhuman fashion, and my pity for them is running on empty. And, as much as I hope that they would, they'll never stop.

[parasim]

10. So, are you saying fuck just one of them, or saying we should help both...

I agree that it is shameful to say "Fuck them both", although to me, it is perfectly understandable why people say that. It certainly seems like both sides are doing some pretty uncivilized things.

I know I would just prefer if it was more like "Help them both."

But how do we help both sides? I haven't a clue.

[flowomo]

16. "Fuck them both" implies not just not helping....

but completely uninterested in/hostile to the idea of even thinking about how one could possibly help, or indifferent to the efforts of others to help. That IS shameful.

[parasim]

19. I agree. The apathy is deafening.

[anarch]

60. it's not apathy...it's exasperation

I certainly hope nobody here really means "fuck all the people in the region"...I interpret it as "fuck both of the equally hard-line, uncompromising, and aggressive stances that are causing this to escalate."

[brentspeak]

18. I support Israel existing as a state, completely. But...

let's face it: insisting that Palestine be the location for a new Israel was the dumbest thing the Zionists could ever have done. There's only been misery and death for all sides as a result.

[parasim]

21. Well, when you merge church and state...

...that's what you get, no?

[brentspeak]

23. In this case, not necessarily

The Zionists had other options for creating a new Jewish homeland, including places in South America, maybe a part of Canada. There wouldn't have been any displacement of a residing people, nor fighting over "holy" land.

[parasim]

25. In this case, yeah, pretty much...

...precisely because they are "fighting over 'holy' land."

Sure, they had other options. So, why do they not choose the other options?

[Nevernose]

31. That was 60 years ago! (which is the crux of the problem)

Who really CARES what other options someone, ANYone, had 60 years ago?

People are fighting over shit that happenned before most those people's grandparents were born.

The terms "Israeli Jew" and "Arab Muslim" are just as much an ethnicicty at this point as they are a religion, as far as I am concerned. The religious issues ould have been decieed a long tiem ago, were it not for the convenient excuse to kill each other over religion instead of ethnicity.

[amandabeech]

22. I agree wholeheartedly.

n/t

[vickitulsa]

53. Boy you have my attention there, benburch.

Of all the discussions of this topic I've read, and finally began participating in a little bit, there have been only a scant few posters who view that move by the Allied powers in 1948 as a bad one, an important one -- and one at the heart of the trouble we see in that land today. Regional trouble which threatens to engulf the entire world before it's "over"....

After the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 came up (or I brought it up, I forget which), I started thinking about it more depth than I had before. I realized that anti-Semitism was SO rampant worldwide and even among those who freed the surviving Jews at the end of WWII that it was apparently utterly impossible to find any country anywhere that was willing to accept a massive influx of Jews, no matter HOW much they had been wronged or how desperate and needy they were. Or how weakened and unthreatening.

I've never understood how a people could "earn" such virulent and violent hatred from others ... it just doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I'm missing something?

The final decision to plunk the refugee Jews after the war in the heart of Palestine was in one sense understandable (considering it had been their "original" homeland, at least in the eyes of many of them). But at the same time it seems obvious NOW at least that it was the most certain-to-fail choice that could have been made! (I have actually wondered if perhaps the Allies expected them to fail and be killed or run out -- and didn't care!)

Give these Jewish refugees an island or any other location where they might feel a lot safer from the git-go, and it seems likely we never would have seen the massive military build-up of a Jewish nation that we have in the ME now. Let others who are militarily powerful protect them, rather like we did with Japan, though for a completely different reason; and let them rebuild their lives and their culture without the need to fight on a daily basis for their very survival, and wouldn't we have a cultural ethos among such people that is wholly unlike what they have now?

I know, it's kinda pointless in one sense to spend too much time talking about this issue since we can't go back and change what was done in the past. But sadly, I think that decision pretty much sealed the fate of the "Israelis" even before they got started. Even with a lot of financial and other support from a newly emerged world power (America), it still fell largely to the Jews themselves to learn to defend themselves in a very hostile environment among others who hated them before they even met them. Many Jews may have loved the location because they considered it their biblical, historic "home," but that doesn't mean it was the ONLY place they could have felt at home!

As it was, their people seem doomed from the outset of that "experiment" to develop a very strong backbone and the willingness to toughen their hearts and minds to the need to do violence to others if they wished to avoid a repeat of what Hitler did to them. After SUCH an experience as they had collectively as a people just before being sent to their newly established State, how could they feel otherwise, given where "we" put them to start over?

And saddest of all, not only have so many of the Jews/Israelis therefore handed down to their children for generations a violently self-protective attitude, but we also have the same sort of attitude that developed among their enemies! It's the indoctrination of the children, from the moment they are old enough to toddle along holding a toy gun -- a toy replaced by the real thing as soon as they can understand where NOT to fire it -- that disturbs me the most.

How can we expect any adults who were raised the way many young Jews and young Arabs/Palestinians were raised to do anything except what they're doing right now in the Middle East? They were brainwashed from birth, literally! Not every single one, but so many were, and are still being corrupted and diverted from any peaceful attitudes long before they were old enough to make any choice for themselves.

I remember being sickened to my very soul the first time I ever saw video feeds of Arab terrorists (or "freedom-fighters" if you think of them that way) proudly displaying their two- and three-year-olds fully garbed in suicide bomber regalia or toting realistic rifles and grenades and making fierce faces that were not merely "play." Argghh!! Exactly the way I felt when I first saw pictures of KKK members' children in America dressed up in all their white-sheeted "glory" and shouting filthy hate slogans as soon as they could use words.

--And then there are the intransigent and unrelenting fighters on both sides who were not brainwashed deliberately but who experienced great loss and grief when beloved family members or friends were bombed, shot, or flamed to death in attacks by the other side.... Many of THEM developed an abiding hatred for those who caused their grief as well, which is understandable to most people.

Sometimes it DOES just seem like a hopeless wish to think anyone might yet manage to bring these peoples with their modern (and ancient) histories of hate so well developed and entrenched to a genuine peace. But I still just don't see we have any choice but to TRY to find a peaceful solution to the painful, tragic dilemma of contemporary Middle East madness that promises only more of the same violence, and escalating, for the foreseeable future....

[brentspeak]

64. Who?

I'm Brentspeak.

[vickitulsa]

67. I'm so sorry, Brentspeak. And I thought I double-checked!

Doh! :blush: I won't forget who you are again, promise!

[Amonester]

73. Personally, I don't 'have' any virulent (and certainly not violent)...

vitriol against anyone - and I also don't know any Jewish person on a personal level - but in an attempt to try to answer this particular question in your (good) post:

"I've never understood how a people could "earn" such virulent and violent hatred from others ... it just doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I'm missing something?"

I would just want to say that (and I wish not to get 'flamed' for saying it), if there are people who constantly get together to pray peacefully, I (and all my friends) sure don't have anything against that.

But if what they believe and sort of 'hope for' implies that they are "the chosen ones" (in terms of "we are superior because our divinity 'told' us we are, and our divinity is always right"), and that they, together or individually, kind of 'look forward for a day (or a night) when their divinity will come back from some 2000 years ago, and take them to his heavens, and then, just massacre the rest of us and our children by burning the s**t out of us all, I hope you'd not be too much 'surprised' if we'd not really 'cheer' for their 'hopes' to happen anytime, no?

Anyway. I don't hate anyone who's good at heart but I really 'dislike' (in the sense of 'not wanting to be 'close to') all hypocrits.

My $0.02 (hoping my words won't get 'distorted' for I don't know 'what').

[vickitulsa]

75. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

You won't get flamed by me, and I'm glad to see no one else apparently flamed you, either. One tiny step forward for humankind, IMO. :)

And I can certainly see the point you made in your (good) post. Strange how what kept occurring to me continually as I read it was the comparison to what we not-so-fondly call "fundies" here on DU.

I suppose it's possible that I'm one of very few people -- at least in this environment -- who does not see every move Israel makes as tied to the U.S. or even to GWB in any way. U.S. policies toward the State of Israel have always seemed to me to be fairly mutable, in that the extent to which Israel is "blindly" supported by our government varies quite a lot from administration to administration -- both theirs and ours.

Still, I know that Bush's fundie "Christian" fanatical mindset, as part of the fruitcakey but very serious Rapture Cult, works hand-in-glove with the religious beliefs you describe for "fundie" Jews. Of course a lot of Israelis are NOT Jews in these times, and many tend to forget that. I don't think non-Jewish Israelis would see the world in the way you described, since they are not by definition religious. It's pretty hard to know just how many Israelis hold with the historical Jewish beliefs about their being a "chosen people."

(The funniest line I ever heard on this point was from a Jewish man who said, "The Jews aren't the 'chosen people' -- we volunteered!")

Kinda hard to laugh at anything related to the present situation, but sometimes a little bit of fun poked at onesself can do wonders to open doors to non-confrontational conversation.

I'll just say I definitely do see your point. However, to me the threat to world stability and freedom posed by American "fundies" is far greater than that posed by Israel. If the two groups march in lockstep, as it seems might be possible under this administration, the threat becomes far worse, needless to say.

But I think national self-interest would supersede any philosophical or religious affiliation between Jews and fundie Christians, when push comes to shove on the world scene.

My best friend believes in an Illuminati-spawned manipulation by a mega-wealthy Elite of all world events, with some of the most powerful key players being Jewish -- or more precisely, Zionist, I guess I should say, if I understand it rightly. I have done a lot of research in the last couple of years of the Illuminati/secret societies theories and found much to be concerned about in what I learned. But I still can't see that "the Jews are to blame" for all the world's ills, nonetheless, or that all Jews should be feared and loathed for a small contingent's fanatical religious beliefs.

I remember thinking way back when I was in college (late Sixties) that it's more than passing strange that in all the world with all the abiding animosities among different religious groups and national interests, the key to humanity's future might very well be found ultimately in the affairs of such a small region, the Middle East....


P.S. On a related note, I watched a History Channel program late last night about the "Doomsday Clock" conceived by a group of concerned atomic scientists back in the '40's, 1947, I believe it was. Many of those scientists were ones who'd been involved in the Manhattan Project, and Albert Einstein was on their board for some time. This group very much wanted to make the public aware of the threat to all humankind that nuclear weapons represented, in a time when governments were largely keeping specific related knowledge about nukes quite secret. I believe the closest to midnight that the hands of their clock were set to was when both India and Pakistan first tested nuclear bombs successfully.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1844935.stm


--Oh, and I don't hate anyone who's good at heart, either! :)

[MADem]

70. I always thought they shoulda given them east Germany, myself

Of course, the Russkies had their eye on that chunk of real estate....

[TreasonousBastard]

17. In some cases shameful, in others...

simply a frustrated outburst as we watch the engines of destruction that we are powerless to stop.

Having friends both in Israel and Lebanon, and being personally a pacifist, I still see no way for the bloodshed to stop untio they themselves want it to stop.

Sure, the people jujst living there all want it to stop, and my Israeli friends back in the 70s told me stories of how there was no animositiy in the street as everyone in the towns and neighborhoods knew each other. But things have changed after the last real war, treaties, the "process"...

Now, it's no longer open, united, national hatred of Israel, but a slow slide into constant conflict with shadowy forces that cannot be reasoned or dealt with on any level but the violence they feed on. It's no longer about the Palestinians, or Israel's right to exist, but simply to keep the war going. After all the "process," the Palestininas are in worse shape and Israel is in greater danger.

The war itself is the reason for the war to continue. For either side, annihilation of the enemy, not simply defeat, is the only answer, and they both know that is impossible.

So, although the ordinary Israelis and Palestinians, and now the Lebanese, are to be the "beneficiaries" of victory, there will be no victory, and they will just live under siege forever.

They have proven that they cannot and will not stop this themselves, so either someone intervenes, at greater cost, or they keep blowing each other up until they just get tired of it. Or there's nothing left to destroy.

And we wash our hands of it, as there is nothing left to do. For now.

[brentspeak]

20. Agreed. If anything, it would be abnormal for people

NOT to be extremely frustrated because of the Middle East madness. "Yelling out" on a web board is understandable on an issue like this.

[blue sky at night]

26. thanks,

i have the feeling lately that the tone around here is different. maybe we all need to change focus, begin to change ourselves first, thereby changing the world.

tune out the bad news, tune in the good:

http://www.hayhouseradio.com/index.php

[flowomo]

29. I wouldn't say "tune out the bad news".....

that's hiding from reality. Learn all the "news" -- but never tune out your willingness to be humane, even when humane behavior seems pointless.

[mzteris]

57. I like your

Coexist sign...........

[sandnsea]

28. And yet the hooya rapture thread is a-ok

Sometimes I think people around here need a serious stick-out-of-the-ass procedure. For cryin' out loud, as if most people aren't fed up with the Judeo-Christo-Islamo fighting.

And *I'm* the bitchy one???

[flowomo]

30. are you saying that being "fed up" is a reason to lash out?

can't agree. And if refusing to agree that "fuck them both" is a mature or "liberal" response suggests to you that I've got a stick up my ass, well, that's not exactly an argument one can respond to.

[sandnsea]

34. People take the word "fuck" waaaaay too seriously

That's what I think. And I also think that it's DU PC to lash out at some groups, like fundies and Israelies, and not others.

And so, yeah, fuck 'em. And lighten up.

[ButterflyBlood]

33. It's just an easy reaction when both sides are pretty awful

Which is the case here.

[Triana]

35. shock

July 13, 2006 | A child suffering from shock was rushed to the hospital in Nahariya, after five rockets struck northern Israel Thursday. Israeli warships and aircraft were clamping down on Lebanon's air, sea and land infrastructure on Friday, three days after Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.
(Photo: Rina Castelnuovo / The New York Times)

[druidity33]

52. 25,000 Americans...

are trapped in Lebanon right now... many exchange students, tourists, diplomats, businesspeople, etc. If we fuck them all, we do it to our countymen too.

When was the last time a country militarily severed all transit services to and from a country? Cuba's and other embargos don't limit EVERYONE from going in or out. It's such a drastic measure. I'm not even sure that during WWII it would have been acceptable in world opinion to assassinate a country's elected leaders as is being done to Hamas and HezB lately. What would the world say if Lebanon or Syria decided to do the same thing with the Likud party? Y'know, labeled them terrorist and starting planning attacks inside Israel with gov't forces?

I'm not harping on you... just in SHOCK myself. Nobody seems to be mentioning these points...

[Triana]

61. I agree...

...we can never really say 'fuck em' because we're then f*cking ourselves too.

[MADem]

71. And a boatload are duals, too....

The family that goes over for the summer to spend time with Grampa and Grandma....running through the farm fields, eating the grapes, enjoying the sunshine...keeping in touch with the culture.

These people will be less inclined to leave. They may send the kids out, but they aren't gonna abandon Grandma and Grampa....

The AU students no doubt wanna be gone, NOW. They're probably researching the history of the school and suddenly realize that this would not be the first time violence touched it.

[NMMNG]

36. Geez Louise, are these real DUers?

Or are they trolls/Freeper poseurs?



If they're real DUers it's utterly shameful. Otherwise it's not at all shocking.

[tomreedtoon]

37. They are determined to destroy each other. Like the Irish.

There are some nationalities that simply wish to fight. Maybe they even have good rationalizations for it. But it's still a preference for violence.

The Israelis have decided that the only way to keep peace is massive reprisal for any incursion into their territory. They believe it is the only alternative they have to extinction. Heck, do you think they would really expect the US, or nations of "good will," to come to their aid? We sure didn't when their country was created.

To some, that intransigence makes them noble. To me, and to a lot of people, it makes them pretty damn scary and dangerous to be around.

As for them being human beings, what does that really mean? They are human beings who see enemies behind every rock. They are human beings who are quite determined to kill other human beings and not to trust them. They are human beings with FREAKING GUNS.

It may make American Jews and non-Jews who are sympathetic to Jews uncomfortable to reject that violence. How can you turn your back on "your own people?" Well, I've got a lot of Irish Catholic in my gene pool, and I am sick and disgusted at the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland for the decades they could think of nothing better than blowing each other's children up. (And at the covert funding collected by Irish Catholics here that helped the flow of explosives going.)

[Voltaire99]

38. Come on, it's triangulation.

Didn't Clintonism teach a generation of Democrats to split the difference over everything in pursuit of more votes?

These poor sods are just looking for a "third way."

[Guaranteed]

44. Or maybe they're just looking at 100's, 1000's of years of killing

down ethnic lines and deciding that it's really not even appropriate to blame only one side or the other anymore.

Maybe they're sick of hearing the blame always going on the other guy. The never-ending revenge-killing cycle. Maybe they want one side or the other to just stand up and say ENOUGH OF THIS RIDICULOUS SHIT.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. Interesting..what about the 'fuck Israel' or 'fuck Lebanon' voters...

I tend to see the 'fuck both of them' as coming from frustration, but those who voted 'fuck Israel' or 'fuck Lebanon' imo display a much more hateful side to things. So why aren't you offended by that?

[Guaranteed]

41. Yes, I believe I can look at the pictures of the innocent dead and still

proclaim "FUCK THEM BOTH." Quite easily, in fact.

That's the whole point- which I guess you just missed.

[VolcanoJen]

43. You want shameful? I'll give you shameful.

(I'm a bartender) One of my bar customers, a BushWorld dweller, said tonight, "We should just nuke the shit out of the entire fucking region."

I said, "Ummm... well, ok, but nukes are off the table, right? I mean, we've got, like, 135,000 of our finest servicemen and women right smack dab in the center of the region. So they're all supposed to get radiated and they can suck it, I guess?"

He paused for a moment, and then, in the most nonchalant way imaginable, said, "They volunteered."

And yes, he sports not one, not two, but THREE "Support the Troops" ribbons on his SUV.

I'm terrified by most people I meet these days, DU notwithstanding.

[laheina]

45. That's one of the scariest examples of

Repug doublethink that I have heard of, to date.

I really don't understand how some of these people can live with themselves.

[VolcanoJen]

46. They will say absolutely anything, even the most outrageous thing...

... before admitting that they are wrong.

This is the most frightening aspect of their character.

[vickitulsa]

77. You said it! Their world is built upon such a fragile premise

in most cases, namely a religious or faux-religious one, that if they admitted they were wrong, their whole basis for their life choices would dissolve and leave them in a limbo they cannot tolerate. They'd rather sound like f'ing idiots and defend to the bitter end the path they have chosen and the people they have decided to support.

NO MATTER WHAT. Scary indeed....

(Note: I always enjoy your posts, VJen!) :)

[OneBlueSky]

47. "fuck 'em both" has nothing to do with writing off casualties . . .

on both sides, or being insensitive to the horrific suffering that's happening in the region . . .

"fuck 'em both," to me, means that these people have been killing each other for generations, and it's about damn time someone said "Enough!" . . . it's time for the so-called "adults" of the world to stop using deadly force to settle their differences and to find ways to peacefully co-exist . . . because in this day and age, the weapons available to said "adults" can easily result in conflagrations unimaginable in previous times . . .

"fuck 'em both" means "Stop it!" . . . and stop it now . . .

[mzteris]

59. In my fantasies

I see all the women and children of both sides coming together in the streets and holding hands and saying "ENOUGH! You are killing all of your wives and mothers and sisters and all of your children anyway. We are standing together until you lay down your arms - ALL of them and swear forever to forsake violence as an answer."

Ok - so it's a fantasy - - - it could happen.

[guinivere]

69. Exactly. It seems to me that there will never, ever be peace there.

It's almost as if they don't want peace, given the length of time this has been going on. A constant war with tiny spurts of "peace" in between.

They need to step up and hammer this out.

[RummyTheDummy]

48. Tell me how that's even remotely my problem?

These people have been fighting over that shit hole since 1948. Let them fight over it. They can have it. At the end of the day the people of Israel put these people in power, just as the fanatics in Lebanon gave Hezbollah legitmacy. It's too bad inocent people have to die in the process, but it is what it is.

[JNelson6563]

49. Lots of swearing, very mature

no better than those you criticize. Your title is very telling.

Shock value is for suckers IMO.

[dysfunctional press]

50. FUCK them BOTH!

they're killing their own children and innocents, and they never seem to learn or care...so...FUCK them BOTH.

[cali]

51. Could you point out any

posts where someone said, regarding the Lebanese people, fuck them all?

[mogster]

55. I didn't see it as serious

If the choice is to either fuck one of the parties or both, most people will choose the neutral alternative. Maybe the poll should have had an alternative that said to cuddle them both instead, lol

[rug]

58. All the more reason to stop sending weapons there.

[Mir]

62. They're both going to fuck each other

regardless of what any of us say, so I really don't see the point in getting riled up at flip comments. I myself am completely surprised at the new fire power that Hizbollah has now - courtesy of their Iranian patrons of course. They took out a ship yesterday. That's fucking impressive. It's a new day for the Israelis; now they have to contend with an enemy that can shell their cities and attack their ships and helicopters. I say lose the indignation; these people are eternally locked in mortal combat. We might as well kick back and enjoy the show, as horrible as that sounds.

[eek MD]

63. Tired of people claiming the "right" to kill...

Until everyone in the world says that they will never kill another person for any reason, there will never be peace.

I could go into detail, but why should I have to. Killing another human is wrong, no matter who is doing it, and no matter what reasoning (or spin) they give for it.

Sometimes I'm amazed at any humans (Democrats or otherwise) who feel so much bloodlust and hatred toward others............who see no problem with things like "collateral damage deaths", "war casualties" or "revenge killings". It makes me certain that we will never see world peace in my lifetime, and that is a shame.

When i say "fuck them both".......it's that feeling that i'm talking about. Both sides see so much hatred for each other that neither side merits any sympathy on my part..... Both of the sides are wrong.....so "fuck them both"

[FlaGranny]

65. I wouldn't say that, but

I am of the opinion that countries (the US) meddling in other countries' affairs actually prolongs and perpetuates war and violence. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened over the past 100 years if we had just minded our own business. Perhaps by now, these countries and groups who now slaughter each other may have worked things out on their own. The only reason I can think of that makes any war legitimate is humanitarian, to stop genocide. Most conflicts could probably be resolved with intelligent diplomacy.

[happydreams]

72. Take care of America first and "beware of foreign entanglements".

I have never approved of our backing of Israel.

[Name removed]

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