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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:37 PM
Original message
Put Away the Flags - Howard Zinn
Put Away the Flags
by Howard Zinn

On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.

Continued @ http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0703-29.htm



... And To all you dirtyhippiepinkocommiebums out there...: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5330111 ;)


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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree........agreed, I am agreeing alot......
is 100% in the ballpark? it is way out of here folks, put those nasty things away.

http://www.prayerflags.com/



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madaboutharry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Howard Zinn is a great thinker
Unfortunately, great thinkers are really rare.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree w/Howard
The thought of celebrating tomorrow makes me ill.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh me too.
I feel sad tonight.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Zinn speaks for me
sadly, this is how I feel this year.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. I do enjoy me some Zinn
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
7.  dirtyhippiepinkocommiebum checkin' in! I agree wholeheartedly
with Howard! I haven't flown the flag since the psycho illegally invaded Iraq. I fly a PEACE flag ONLY. It stays up until we get the hell out of there. WTG, Howard!:thumbsup:
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. I was just on the phone w/a friend talking about the Twilight Zone.
and how some of the shows highlight the dangers of totalitarianism and nationalism.

I even just wrote about it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1561204

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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Arrogant nationalism
That's the problem.......it's the sense of entitlement that is destructive.






Tell me WHAT do we celebrate tomorrow?....Kids dying for no reason?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. What a perfect 4th of July piece!
Thanks!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
63. Sane people agree with
Zinn.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. ... and sane people can also disagree w/him.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. National spirit can be benign in a country that's big and has
a bloated military too, Howie.

I'm aware of the many blemishes of our history and am not too pleased with the imperialist power-mongers running the show, but the U.S. is still my old home. I reject the American Exceptionalism of the Right which claims that the U.S. is unique in its greatness. It's a wonderful place, but there are a lot of wonderful places in the world. But I also reject Zinn's American Exceptionalism which posits that because of America's status in the world, I can't love my country in the same way that the Swiss, Norwegians, and Costa Ricans do.

To me the U.S. is the land of jazz, baseball, and kick-ass BBQ (for starters). How is me appreciating this arrogant and dangerous?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:34 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:41 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:42 PM
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You didn't even read my original post, you blithering idiot.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:44 PM
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. But you were too fucking ignorant to notice that it's the only
post in the goddamn thread that advocated national pride.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:47 PM
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Right.
The other posts in this thread, no big deal to you, but mine however is the epitome all that is Godless and America-hating. You really expect me to believe that?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:54 PM
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Ah, man. I've been tricked.
Check out this guys avatar. No way this guy is a real troll. He's a meta-troll. Trolling by pretending to be a troll. Puerile, but clever nonetheless.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:00 PM
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Aw, they always die so young.
See ya! :hi:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Look at his hobby and comments.. (disregard the spelling) :-)
Hobby Busting anti war rallies up it is great to hear you libs mad at OUR freedom of speech

Comment How about Rice 08 or shall we say Bill Frist of mabye Rudy Julianny oh however you spell that,, Bring it hillary
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:48 PM
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Did you make a wrong turn down at the corner....
do you understand what a "tombstone" is?? :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:52 PM
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23. Deleted message
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. There are one billion Kurds??
Learn something new everyday, don't we?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:56 PM
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27. Deleted message
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Don't you have some torture video to watch Rummy? n/t
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. "soungs"? "cant"? "WMD,s"? "you loose again"?
Wow.

Guess that answers the question as to how 50,000,000 idiots can vote for Bush!

:rofl:

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:57 PM
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29. Deleted message
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Welcome to DU, Randyred. Your next stop will be the...


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Deleted message
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. It's lose, not loose
Two different words, two different meanings.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. I would say welcome to DU--but we do prefer our posters to exhibit at
least a modicum of intelligence and sense--and some of us prefer that they actually be able to spell (as in turbans, not turbins), and be consistent in their punctuation, or lack thereof. we also prefer that they have some small sense of fact and accuracy, and sadly, you display none of these traits.

I understand free republic is not overly concerned with such matters, and I am certain you will feel quite at home there.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
41. "about the WMD,s we found"
:wtf: Do you mean the inert rusted barrels of chemicals that were discredited by David Kay, your Dear Leader's Number One Weapons' Inspector?!?

Only FOX spreads such lies. Those old "once" viable chemical weapons have degraded down to their elements well before our invasion, i.e., THEY DON'T WORK. ;)
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
43. Uh ... you're a few orders of magnitude off
Edited on Mon Jul-03-06 11:19 PM by The Traveler
in your estimates of dead Kurds and "disendents". There is a big difference between 100K and one billion. All those zeroes mean something. And while spelling is not your strong suit, I see, that is forgivable. Your mathematical ineptitude is less so, and a numeric error of this magnitude suggests an incapability to apply or follow the processes of reason.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. getting back to the topic at hand...I agree with Telly Savalas
I don't understand the logic of those that say put away the flag, don't celebrate July 4, etc. On July 4, we (or at least I) don't celebrate what the current administration has done and is doing to this country. Rather I celebrate the founders --- the revolutionaries -- that created this country. It is their spirit that I celebrate for it is that spirit that continues to fight back against the abuses of power that current bedevil us.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Deleted message
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. So you agree with onenote because he agrees with me,
but you find my post that onenote agrees with offensive.

You're a real piece of work.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. You need to read some actual history of the American Revolution.
Many of the founding fathers were not Christians.

And Americans by and large do NOT trust Bush; alcoholics can never be trusted.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. NOOOO! That is the worst possible things those of the left could do
Edited on Mon Jul-03-06 11:17 PM by Clarkie1
because it confirms the right's propaganda that the flag is theirs. It's the exact opposite thing those on the left should be doing. Wave the flag, Democrats, wave it proud!
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Many of us who have served in the military feel no need to
Edited on Mon Jul-03-06 11:22 PM by ShortnFiery
figuratively wrap ourselves up in the flag. Especially the Vets who've served in combat have nothing to prove to these sick minded right wing-nuts! Many of them got DADDY to get them out of serving in Vietnam. You can bet they'd do the same if there is another draft. Many of these pompous flag wavers are poseurs and cowards. Show me a man who waves the flag and spouts jingoistic slogans and MOST times you'll find that he never served one day in a combat zone. :hi: :patriot:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Proud of what?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. The Bill of Rights, the U.S. Constitution, the right to dissent.
Everything America stands for, that's what that flag stands for! Don't give in! Don't let them take it away!
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. Do you mean
the stuff that is swirling down the toilet?

The flag has not stood for what you claim for a very long time.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. And how do you think the flag will come to stand for those things again?
Certainly not if supporters of those things treat the flag as if it is the antithesis of those ideals. It is not. It embodies those ideals...we need to remind people of that.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. It may embody those ideals to you
but it hasn't to me since the Viet Nam War.

I don't like pretending. Pretending we have a great country is like an ostrich w/its head in the sand. It also shows ignorance about our country's history.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
72. That's not what the flag stands for, it's what the Bill of Rights stands
I am not arguing with your decision to take pride in the flag: that is certainly your right. But, it is a nationalistic symbol that stands as a banner of the US, specifically it's government. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are everything America stands for. Not the flag, or the anthem, or the pledge. Take those away, and we still have greatness. But, take away the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and leave the symbols, and what do we have? Fascism. Nationalism. And those now in charge want that to happen... that want to have our rights be shaded by a piece of cloth.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
70. Why? I consider it a symbol of nationalism, not liberty
It's also why I refuse to say the pledge. I walk out of areas when the National Anthem is played for the same reason. To ME, it smacks of nationalism... it almost sickens me, because I, PERSONALLY, believe it goes against what the Constitution and Bill of Rights stand for.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
45. "Patriotism is the egg from which wars are born." de Maupassant
Good riddance to it.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
47. I have no pride in my country today.
I will not celebrate tomorrow in a big way.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. Then I hope you will consider protesting.
And I respectfully suggest considering waving a flag while you vocally protest...I really think the Democratic Party should invest in free bullhorns for all patriotic Americans.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. I do protest every time there is one locally.
But today on the 4th, there are only parades and fireworks. I don't intend to attend either one.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. ...
Edited on Tue Jul-04-06 02:12 PM by Cleita
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
48. my flag is up. brand new, crisp and bright.. who is zinn?
a writer?
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. Really? You don't know Howard Zinn?
He wrote The People's History of the United States and You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train.

He's an academic historian from a blue collar background, and also a combat veteran.

I both agree with Zinn's analysis here and don't. I'm wearing red, white, and blue today to honor the brightest ideals of what this country could be, what it's founding documents stand for. But the religious nationalism running rampant today scares the hell out of me. I guess my thoughts this 4th of July run along the lines of this bumper sticker:


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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. i am with what you are saying. i am still not conceding flag
to the right. not 4th celebration. midnight and we had a wonderful family reunion of love and laugher and joy. so i am keeping it. each year.

i hear what you say though. if i wanted to get into it on what is today and blind patriotism i could, but that is the u.s. i celebrate today.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
50. well it made me change my avatar anyway n/t
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
51. Zinn is wrong on this one.
Edited on Tue Jul-04-06 12:34 AM by Clarkie1
National spririt need not be arrogant nationalism, whatever the size of the nation. Just because present day circumstances are what they does not mean national spirit need lead to arrogant nationalism, or that we should give up our national spirt. On the contrary, we need to rediscover our TRUE national spirit embodied in the ideals this country was founded upon.

It took national spirit for FDR to enact the New Deal, for Kennedy to lead us to the moon, for Martin Luther King, Jr. to lead us closer to the promised land, and for Lyndon Johnson to declare a war on poverty. Zinn has forgotten that, and it is tragic that he has. It's not national spirit that is bad or good, it's how we direct it.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
55. speaking of mass murder...,. alot of e-graves in this thread
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. e-grave?
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. tombstones
....he disrupted poorly.
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
57. Flag will be up... right next to the current count of war dead.
LOVE MY COUNTRY -- HATE THE WAR AND THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.

U.S. DEAD IN IRAQ 2535 (as of July 3rd 2006)





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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Count is per www.antiwar.com/casualties
There are too many good people in this country and too many who died for that flag to let those who desecrate it's meaning fly it high while the rest of us hide ours in shame.

It isn't the symbol that I respect as much as the right of every American to stand up and say I love my country and I'm damm sick and tired of what these fools are doing to it.

I don't have to choose between loving my country and dissenting. I can do both at the same time.

Just me.

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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
62. Zinn's becoming a caricature of himself.


"Put away the flags" I wonder what other useless advice he can give.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
67. arrogance is at its highest heights
with these wingnuts occupying the WH.

Mr. Zinn is right.

But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.
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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
68. Zinn can kiss my ass
Edited on Tue Jul-04-06 02:22 PM by Johnyawl
My flag is up, and it stands for what it has always stood for; not the reality of what is America today, but the hope and ideals of what America can, and will be.


That's absolutely the worse advice the Dems could take. Rove would PAY the Democrats to abandon the flag.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. He doesn't have to pay me
I stopped flying my flag the day we invaded Iraq and I have no intention of hanging it back up again until our invasion has ended. And Karl Rove didn't have a thing to do with my decision.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. That's your right, but I don't believe it's an effective form of protest.
eom
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. I agree with you. nt
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-05-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #68
76. Wow. You just didn't get it at all. Did you read the article?
Or did you just have a knee jerk reaction to the national cloth being threatened? It's no wonder America is in the mess it's in, the depth of understanding is lacking.
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BrownOak Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-05-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Who is taking the sounding on the depth of understanding?
It's no wonder America is in the mess it's in, the depth of understanding is lacking.

Another possible reason America may be in the mess it's in is because people look at someone else's thoughts on a subject and rather than respect the fact they may have a different opinion the only acceptable option is that they are too stupid to get it and lack the depth of understanding needed to fully grasp the problem.

I think Zinn is a valuable historian, but I agree with those who feel he's missed the mark with his latest commentary. We all get his point - the US has done many vile deeds under the banner of "morality." But rather than forgo nationalism, wouldn't the better approach be to embrace our nationalism but to do it with true morality? Or do we all have to march to the beat of Zinn's drum?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 02:49 PM
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