I now believe that we are one "terror attack" away from fascism

[Arkham House]

I have never believed this. I have never actually thought that anyone, even the Busheviks, would "really" do this--it's just our natural, emotional over-reactions to the BS coming down..."It can't happen here", after all...I was a witness to the '68-'74 era, when all sorts of paranoia was also rampant, and nothing really happened, and Watergate swept all of them down the sewer, anyway... But now? I now truly believe that we are just one more "terror attack" from the beginning of the end of the American Republic. "The Department of Censorship" talk--I mean, it's out in the *open* now. They aren't even trying to hide it anymore. And something else that terrifies me--I had a call recently from a family member who works in DC, and he knows many top Dems. He says that many of them are scared to death. They *know* this regime is preparing a Reichstag Fire incident, they *know* that our Republic is on the brink. He told me that one very prominent Dem said privately that if we have another 9/11 before November, the elections will be cancelled. Period. They are just as frightened and uncertain as we are. So I'm no longer sticking my head in the sand--things really are bad, and we need to be damned vigilant...

[Lerkfish]

1. we are already under fascism

we have the "unitary executive", we have 750 "signing statements", we have control of the media.
The president already is above the law and brags about it, and the compliant congress just rewrites the laws to accomodate his wishes.
IF anyone has the temerity to disagree with the president, they are "guilty" of treason.

how are we not under fascism already?

[Marie26]

29. We're still posting

A real facist state would never allow freedom of speech. Yeah, the Bushies are using facist tactics, but at least we can say that w/o being thrown into Gitmo.

[Toucano]

33. That is because our posts are meaningless and offer no threat.

Freedom of speech has been stifled in other ways whenever it genuinely threatens the regime.

[lectrobyte]

35. Exactly, and as Frank Zappa would say:

The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see a brick wall at the end of the theater.

[serryjw]

39. Great Quote

n/t

[krkaufman]

56. Exactly. Can you say "Free Speech Zones"? n/t

[tinfoil tiaras]

89. and "Domestic Detention Centers"

:(

[calimary]

117. Truly. Check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2705185

Please, and thank you.

:hi:

[Marie26]

79. True that!

OK, most posts here are pretty meaningless in the big scheme of things. But the NY Times & WP have published big stories exposing major secret operations & they're still in business. In a real facist state, Bush wouldn't be complaining about the NY Times, he'd be shutting them down & arresting the editors. And I know some rabid right-wingers want that, but they don't have it, yet. We still do have freedom of speech. Yeah, there's free speech zones & attempts to stifle, but we can still pretty much say what we want. As long as we have that freedom of expression, I don't think we're a facist state.

[davekriss]

110. Narrowing the agenda

You make a good point, Marie26. In a conventional fascist state the editors of the NY Times would be marched out in handcuffs and disappeared into a gulag of torture centers. So far this extreme seems to be reserved for misbehaving nations in our Empire, from Chile and Greece in the sixties and seventies, to El Salvador and Honduras in the eighties, to Iraq today (the actual list is very long). We so far have not practiced what we've trained right-wing client juntas to do in their home states. We haven't yet passed over that Rubicon.

(Or have we? We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. We imprison more of our citizens per capita than any other nation on earth. Imprisonment is mostly a class-based risk. The very people most likely to complain about our socio-political arrangements are decimated by CIA-promoted drugs and jail. It's kind of hard to muster together a revolution when withdrawing from crack in the bowels of a violent prison. Afganistan post-Bush has returned to bumber-crops of Opium and heroin use has been on the rise amongst our teenagers and young adults ever since. Perhaps the "neo" fascist state provides the ingredients for certain risky sectors in our population to self-destruct? No need then for direct force, which would burst the illusion of democracy and lead to more difficult volumes of dissent.)

Perhaps the reason the NY Times editors have not been disappeared is because they themselves are recognized as a key asset in our neo-fascist state? They themselves are complicit and participating; they do not stand outside state power applying the brake of journalistic truth to the excesses of the state. Is this complicity perfect? No. This is not a command-and-control conspiracy; it is a conspiracy of influence. Sometimes an inconvenient truth leaks out, and when it does it generates punishing flak from the state and its minions, as is the case with the recent stories about illegal financial tracking, and before with illegal wire-tapping, torture gulags, and more.

Remember Ari Fleischer's warnings after 9-11, "We want to warn all Americans to watch what they say, watch what they do." There are a few stars of the bland major media that have veered outside the permissible agenda, been punished, and then talked about it. Ashleigh Banfield and Christine Amanapour are two examples. Banfield was "disappeared" from the major media, but Amanapour seems to have survived (I seldom watch TV but I think she still gets screen time). I suggest googling up their stories, if interested.

So, to conclude, we have something called "free speech" Marie26, you and I are free to post just about anything we want here in this "free speech zone", but it is contained on the alter-world of the internet, ignored and drowned out by the major media which serves to shape reality for the vast majority of Americans. We are judged irrelevant -- something for power to watch (trust me they watch), to contain when necessary, but nothing more than a peripheral minor threat at this time.

The major media itself, now that it is owned by just six mega-transnational corporations, serves the needs of the owning class. They simply don't report things that threaten current arrangements (the status quo distribution of power and wealth). When something inconvenient is said, the miscreant is punished, serving as a reinforcing example to other journalists and editors who remember Ari's words and are indeed careful about what they say.

Note, however, that the internet is perceived as a potential threat. Note its discussion in PNAC's Rebuilding America's Defenses. And note that the end of net neutrality is coming despite the collective will of the people. Are you aware that the proposed rules would allow the carries (AT&T, for example) to decide not to carry any content they disagree with, not just move it to the slow lane of internet traffic? Forget things like Amy Goodman's DemocracyNow!, that fine example of real journalism would disappear from the internet, censored by private corporations exercising their free "property rights". It would be the end of the internet as we know it; instead it becomes an AOL of crass commercialism and careful controlled messaging, an complement to the brain-deadening space of TV and right-wing radio.

[butterfly77]

112. They are setting everything in place so that...

when everything goes down even the bushites will be shocked.

[InsultComicDog]

70. Sometimes I think we're THIS close to it

[Marie26]

81. Me too.

:( But overturning 200+ years of democracy is a hard thing to do; I still have hope that we'll come out of this regime OK.

[femrap]

74. So far, that is....

Wait until they take over the internet.

[xenu]

78. Sure, you have "freedom of expression"

But if you suffer CLEAR retailiation for it, then your rights are being violated.

Censorship does not only mean wholesale repression - it means controlling, defining, circumscribing and and delineating WHO gets to say WHAT, and WHERE.

Freedom of expression ALSO implies FREEDOM TO LEARN, TO SEEK INFORMATION without obstruction.

It means you ought to be able to publish or create WITHOUT RETALIATION.

[Marie26]

80. What's the retaliation?

I'm posting at DU w/o being arrested. The WP revealed Bush's secret prisons w/o being shut down. The Internet is a great resourse for people to learn & seek information w/o obstruction. I agree that if it reaches the point that people are suffering clear retaliation from the gov. for expressing their views, we've crossed that line into a facist state. But IMO that hasn't happened yet. That's why it's so important to protect net neutrality & 1st Amendment rights now; it protects us from totalitarianism.

[davekriss]

109. Fascism by gentler means

There is little need for punitive, eyebrow-raising censorship laws for places like DU when there's already a near-monopolized major media that (1) is compliant to the needs of the ruling class, and (2) drowns out anything we might say in these alternative cyber-"free speech zones".

Despite a DemocraticUnderground, Truthout, Buzzflash, ConsortiumNews, CommonDreams, Alternet, OnlineJournal, AxisofLogic, TomDispatch, Guerrilla News Network, etcetera, etcetera, 90% of the American public still believed Saddam Hussein was behind 9-11 on the eve of our illegal invasion.

What value, then, our "free speech"? The same ends are accomplished through gentler means.

Meanwhile, should any power-threatening movement show its nascent start, we are already outted -- recorded, catalogued, watched, and available for collection should the Haliburton contingency ever need to be triggered (detention camps). The "gentleness" will last as long as we extract no real pain.

The illusion of freedom in America will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre.
-- Frank Zappa, 1977

We're at the point where our oligarchy is prepared to pull back the curtains.



On edit: Oops. I see my points made by several posts inbetween yesterday, including the Zappa reference! Sorry.

[ShortnFiery]

114. We may NOT be posting for long ...

Because the USA Corporate Media keeps the masses insulated from REAL news, especially about terrorism, those of us worried about "The Unitary Executive" are laughed at and made to look like fools.

However, the drip drip drip of true stories leaking here and there into print media is beginning to filter down to the common American.

As soon as the Propaganda Ruse and outright Disinformation efforts of our Cable News gets mostly ignored by the Average American Worker ... when Americans see their standard of living drop sharply in the not too distant future ... well, let's just say that at that time, "things are gonna get a whole lot more interesting for us here in the good ole' US of A." ;)

[Bluebear]

34. You ain't seen nothing yet. nt

[Mnemosyne]

2. They Thought They Were Free

by Milton Mayer

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

much more at link:

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html




We need to pay very close attention to this. It gives * a free ride on his crimes, backs him in anything he wants to do to fight terra, muffles the press and silences leakers and whistle-blowers.


H. Res. 895

more at link:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:3:./temp/~c109owhJf7::

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) supports efforts to identify, track, and pursue suspected foreign terrorists and their financial supporters by tracking terrorist money flows and uncovering terrorist networks here and abroad, including through the use of the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program;

(2) finds that the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program has been conducted in accordance with all applicable laws, regulations, and Executive Orders, that appropriate safeguards and reviews have been instituted to protect individual civil liberties, and that Congress has been appropriately informed and consulted for the duration of the Program and will continue its oversight of the Program;

(3) condemns the unauthorized disclosure of classified information by those persons responsible and expresses concern that the disclosure may endanger the lives of American citizens, including members of the Armed Forces, as well as individuals and organizations that support United States efforts; and

(4) expects the cooperation of all news media organizations in protecting the lives of Americans and the capability of the government to identify, disrupt, and capture terrorists by not disclosing classified intelligence programs such as the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program.



Sorry the news isn't any better Arkham. I still hold out some hope, but legislation like H. Res. 895 scares the crap out of me.

Maybe I'm an "alarmist".

[originalpckelly]

4. This has profoundly changed my opinion on this topic...

I can now say they are fascists without any doubt whatsoever

[Mnemosyne]

14. I shuddered the first time I read both PC. I keep posting

these in threads hoping all will see and we can react in time to maybe stop it.

Elections canceled due to possible terror attacks? In the interest of the war on terra? Anything seems possible anymore.

I've been so pissed the last 5 years.

This frightens me but good.

[originalpckelly]

42. If people had said the day Bush entered into office...

That prisoners in USA custody would be tortured.
Millions of Americans would be spied upon without warrants.
The President has almost absolute power in wartime.
The President can change a law in a signing statement 750 times...
(There are many more, but I was tired when I posted.)

I think he would have been run out of town by a pitchfork and torch armed mob.

[lonestarnot]

57. I don't think even then. People are just glazed over and only a small

minority even bothers to stay informed any more. "It's toooo depressing." blah blah

[Patiod]

76. they stay "informed" via govt-run channels like Faux NT

[Mnemosyne]

61. Poppy once told a reporter

that if the American people knew the truth about the *'s, that we would lynch them in the streets, or something close to that.

I don't have a pitchfork, but I'm getting a gun. I've always left firearms alone, never liked one in the house. Damn, I hate that it's come to this.

But I'm as ready as possible at this time. At least some of us won't be blind-sided.

The wait is pure hell at times, but it beats the alternative for now.

Solidarity!

[femrap]

75. I never thought I would want a gun or 2....

but I do. Even took a weekend class.

Also want to get my passport. Better safe than sorry...right?

[butterfly77]

113. They have been planning this for years...

[serryjw]

7. Temporary file not found. Display failed.

Is the link bad....or is it gone??

[Mnemosyne]

12. Worked a few mins. ago serry. Try this repost:

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

[serryjw]

36. Thanks

It was the link to the voting that didn't work

[titoresque]

8. This is EXACTLY how I have felt

and the same thing I've been saying.....although not quite as thoughtful and with more cussing. We wait. And we wait.

[Mnemosyne]

62. I hear ya' on the cussing titoresque! lol Since the 2000

theft I can make sailors blush!

I wish we were wrong about how bad it will get, but clarity keeps getting in the way.

[serryjw]

10. I found it

and it passed

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll351.xml

[Mnemosyne]

16. I believe it goes to committee now, does it not? I see my

carp of a rep. voted aye! :grr:

Is this one as bad as it implies when read?

May the Universe help us if it is, no one else will.

We have a major fight on our hands.

[serryjw]

37. That's what 'free will' is my darling

After WWII we said 'never again'....how many more time do we need to say it? We are so fucked and few know it...that's why history repeats it's self......sending you a PM

[acmejack]

18. That's all right-I was told I am delusional about the Government

By a Government Shrink. Simply because I said they had been lying to us my entire lifetime.

[Mnemosyne]

63. When I told my shrink the same things, she told me

that I am NOT delusional nor paranoid! I almost kissed her.

She's from India and amazing.

[Marie26]

30. Is that resolution binding?

My impression was that the bill was a non-binding PR stunt to condemn the NY Times.

[Mnemosyne]

64. It is supposedly *nonbinding* Marie, but we well

know how these shits work.

A signing statement here, a signing statement there...

Congress doesn't work the way it used to anymore.

Neutered.

[Marie26]

82. Thanks

I guess you could say almost every Congressional resolution is "non-binding" on the President. :( They have been effectively neutered & they don't even care. Sigh.

[democrank]

3. Wish I could blame this on paranoia.

That would be easier to swallow than the truth. Department of Censorship. Chilling.

[TwentyFive]

95. But will they really call it the Department of Censorship?

It seems to me the real version will come under some Bushspeak, such as the Department of Patriotism - a subsidiary of Patriot Act III.

[Beelzebud]

5. I agree. One more major attack, and it will be full-blown fascism...

Now. Ask yourself this. Who would benefit to such an attack? If you are a thinking person, you already know the answer to that one.

[kentuck]

6. I'm not sure we're not already there?

If Bush ignores the Supreme Court or finds a way around it, I will be even more convinced.

[Mnemosyne]

17. It's being finalized kentuck. See my post #2. H. Res. 895.

Your take on this res.?

[kentuck]

26. I have that book....it is required reading in these times..

My take on the resolution is that there are more things they are trying to hide. They are trying to intimidate everyone, including the press, into silence. The people may not be able to handle the truth. I wish with every fiber in my being that the American people had an opposition Party to these people. But, unfortunately, I do not think our Democrats see the danger. Perhaps it is only me??

[Mnemosyne]

59. It's not just you kentuck. Many of the dems seem to choose

to remain ignorant of the danger.

I think they feel the way too many tend to - it couldn't happen here!

I agree, there is much more we don't know, yet. Intimidation plays a major factor in the neocons playbook, whether it's on an individual level or world level.

De nile ain't just a river...

The people may not be able to handle the truth, but when they finally get blind-sided by martial law they will "handle" it faster than they ever dreamed.

Ignorance is truly not bliss.

[leftchick]

9. overt fascism perhaps but...

we are already living in a fascist state.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Bush has pinned a bulls eye on all of us with what is transpiring in Iraq

And we don't have any flak jackets, up-armored Humvees, or machine guns to protect our families with like the soldiers do. This is really starting to piss me off.

Don

[serryjw]

13. Twhn WHY does no one care about a National ID card

that I posted?? Wait until ALL your personal info is on it....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1542062&mesg_id=1542062

[Swamp Rat]

15. All the pieces are in place for this police state to carry out the most

heinous war crimes.

Brace yourselves.

[davekriss]

19. Fascist, inverted totalitarian, or some other similar term...

...bottom line is this is not the America of our childhood civics lessons.

Truly, truly scary times. :(

[robbedvoter]

20. You are optimistic....

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Well, IMCPO, Fascism is here. It's alive and well, but

you're right, after the next attack (and there will be another one) the cat will be out of the bag, it will be OFFICIAL. EVERYONE will know what we know. We'll have Martial Law declared and the takeover will be complete.

[tjwash]

22. I think we are one terror attack away from all the Generals...

...in the pentagon staging a major coup, and throwing this illegal mother-fucker out on his ear.

They don't like or respect his incompetent ass, or rummy any more than we do, and there is NO WAY they are going to follow this draft dodging mamas-boy idiot's order to fire on civilians.

[Arkham House]

32. But God help us--if we have to regard a military coup...

...as our salvation...that would be a defeat for the country as bad as the victory of the fascists. Yet--what might our real alternatives be? We are in totally uncharted waters...

[AuntiBush]

65. I Hope

to God you're right. Thanks, shew...

[newspeak]

67. no, because the generals

that were half way rational and had more honor and integrity were all booted out. Don't you remember how many good generals were forced out or stepped down because of the civilian leadership at the Pentagon. Most of the Generals now are just sycophants of this administration.

[femrap]

77. I do hope these Generals are planning this....

A nice quiet coup....just put w in a nice straight jacket and cart him off.

Maybe Wesley Clark could help out????

[toymachines]

94. I agree

I dont think generals would fire on US civilians, I hope I am not being too optimistic here. It just seems like they think Bush is a dumbass and wont take much more.

[bobthedrummer]

23. It is close to becoming totalitarian-we've been fascist for some time eom

[ChristianLibrul]

24. Arm yourselves. Now.

If republicans have guns, we need guns. Arm yourselves now and practice regularly.

[newspeak]

68. please don't say Republicans

there are decent old-fashioned Republicans that are against this administration--what we have in the WH are Neo-cons, not the old Republican party. There are some good Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, Social Democrats--all who believe in the Constitution, all that believe in the ideals of this country.

[smoogatz]

25. We're already "corporatist," which Mussolini said was just a better name

for fascism. Any illusion that we might still be a functioning democracy went out the window with the stolen elections in '00 and '04. The question is, can we recover? And how far will Bushco go to consolidate their hold on power? What's encouraging is that, unlike the Nazis in 1933, they have nothing like majority support among the populace-- so a Reichstag-fire type incident would be a huge gamble, likely to backfire in totally unexpected ways. They'd have to be completely crazy to try it. Of course, I never thought they'd actually invade Iraq without the Security Council, either.

[Arkham House]

31. Actually--the Nazis were never a majority...

...they only got 37% of the vote in any of the free elections in the Weimar era...and even *after* the Reichstag Fire, they only got 44%, and had to use their "useful idiots" among the "respectable" conservatives to get a majority...which is why I think Bush & Co *could* get away with it...one more "terror attack", and the country, led by Fox News and the Repubs in Congress, could be stampeded...

[Marie26]

27. I've felt that way for awhile

Another 9/11 & they'd get rid of even the thin veneer of democracy that we have now.

[Reckon]

28. Neo-Fascism

"Put a frog in boiling water, and he'll hop out, but put that same frog in cold water and slowly bring the water to a boil, and the frog will sit there and happily let himself be cooked to death."

We are the frogs.

[Sailor for Warner]

38. Had a bad dream about that last night

I was asked to fire Naval Fire support into MIAMI while the Marines landed because the city was in open rebellion or something. I wont tell you what happend or what I did in the dream but it was seriously fucked up.

[Mnemosyne]

66. More are having these kind of dreams Sailor. It's

like everyone's psyche is tied to the truth of the future.

Seriously bizarre times.

Stay safe! :hug:

[shance]

40. This Administration has turned the guns on us, the American citizens.

Wake up America.

[OneBlueSky]

41. beyond the obvious, there's one very scary implication in your report . .

"one very prominent Dem said privately that if we have another 9/11 before November, the elections will be cancelled. Period."

the implication here is that another 9/11 is being planned by BushCo, or elements thereof . . . which lends credence to the suspicions that BushCo had some part -- perhaps a major one -- in the first 9/11 . . . and that the "official" story of what happened that day is, in fact, fiction . . .

they figure that since they got away with it once, and they can do it again . . .

[Arkham House]

55. Indeed

Suspicions--maybe more than suspicions--of LIHOP are prevalent in Dem circlesin Washington, I know that for a fact. And what would these people in power *not* do, if they were cornered? That's why the situaton is so frightening...

[Marie26]

84. So why are the Dems rolling over? nt

[snot]

93. SECONDED -- WHY?

I mean, I can accept that they're stupid, deluded, etc. -- but the OP suggests they KNOW what's coming if they don't resist.

[tenshi816]

43. Here's what I don't get.

If there's another 9/11-type incident, then won't that just prove that W isn't capable of keeping the American people safe? It would make a lie out of all the Republicans' claims of being better at national security (not that they aren't lies now, but you know what I mean). Why would an attack be good for BushCo? Seems to me that it would make people trust them less, not more, because W would be seen by his supporters as not doing what he promised he would do.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I can't see Americans accepting the cancellation of elections. Oh, sure, the 30% die-hard Shrub supporters wouldn't mind, but aside from Dems, I can see moderate Republicans and Libertarians taking to the streets over it. Bush setting himself up as President for Life - as a dictator - would cause major blowback from America's allies as well.

[Pachamama]

44. While most of us would immediately understand that if there was another

9/11 type attack on the US that it proves that W and the Bush Administration ARE NOT keeping us safer, the Administration would have most of Americans bamboozled into believing that because of the Democrats who are "soft" on terror or the treasonous liberal media like the NYT's that publishes info that weakens us and our national security, that this is "why" and attack would happen....and the scary thing is most Americans would buy it....

Another attack and I'm leaving the country.....

[shadowknows69]

53. Another attack

and I wager you won't be allowed to leave the country. One more and martial law will be declared until "mission accomplished." however many decades that might be.

[datasuspect]

58. the current rhetoric about the "treasonous media"

notice the media are not just "liberal" anymore, they are "treasonous."

this is the setup, equate the opposition with treason. then they will be responsible for the failure in the war on terror.

they are setting the stage for something.

get ready.

[Pachamama]

85. I completely agree with you...I have had the same feelings about their use

of the word "treason" and believe they are setting the stage....

I'm ready...but I'm not sure for what....and how bad its going to be...and where we all are going to fit into the "script"....

:scared:

[tenshi816]

92. That still wouldn't address the question

of why W and BushCo couldn't keep Americans safe. They can blame other people until the cows come home, but if another 9/11 happens they own it because their selling point is that they're keeping Americans safe. Doesn't matter if Dems are "soft" on terror or not (and we know that Dems aren't soft on terror): Republicans are in charge and their big selling point is that they'll protect America. If it's demonstrated otherwise via a 9/11-type incident, then they can't blame Democrats for their failure to do what they promised.

[magellan]

45. I'm afraid the majority of Americans won't look at it that way

Though it would be wonderful if they did. But my guess is if there's another 9-11 incident, most Americans will be just as scared and compliant as they were the first time. Moreso, even. Anger and fear will stop the reasoning process in most people, and Bush** will use those days of shock and confusion to finally crush the last vestiges of democracy in the name of securing the nation. Who would dare to speak out after we'd been "attacked" except a "traitor"? Those of us who do will be shunned if not detained.

By the time the average American realizes what's happened, it'll be past too late. (I'm not sure it isn't too late already.)

[tenshi816]

46. I think some people would fight back,

and not just people like us. I'm thinking about the NRA crowd. Libertarians and the like. Those people claim they just want to be left alone to keep their guns and live their lives without government interference, so what's going to go through their little minds when their Dear Leader decides he wants to be in charge forever? I can see the thought progression going along the lines of "hey, they took away our right to vote, they might take away our right to bear arms next". Nothing causes gun lovers to sit up and take notice more than the notion that they might lose their 2nd Amendment rights.

Such a move by BushCo - cancelling elections - would cause major problems with America's allies too, as I said before. It wouldn't be just a domestic issue; it would have worldwide implications. The British would go crazy, for just one example, and every political party with even a remote hope of ever being in power in the UK would have to roundly condemn such an action by the American government, to the point of possibly cutting off diplomatic relations with the US. The Brits don't like totalitarians, and that's an understatement.

[magellan]

47. A masterful understatement

But the Brits couldn't do anything about it but object. And I don't think the EU would stand up in any meaningful way to the US either. Still, I'd wish to be THERE rather than HERE should such a thing happen. The thing I miss most about the UK/EU is their basic love of reason and their long memory for what true evil is.

I agree with you about the Libertarians/gun-owners. They'd FREAK. However, I'm less than certain that they'd pose much of a threat to BushCo. Far more likely they'd wind up as a demonized insurgency.

[Frank Cannon]

48. The libertarians/gun-nuts won't do shit

You don't see them screaming now, do you? And this is the most totalitarian regime in U.S. history.

My guess is that the Bush boys will march right into these people's homes, open their gun cabinets, and help themselves to the rifles, while the resident gun-lovers compliment the stormtroopers for doing such a great job in the war on terra.

[tenshi816]

50. They're not screaming now

because they're not worried about losing their 2nd Amendment rights. If they seriously start worrying about that, it will be a different story. My own father is a mild-mannered Republican but he's got all kinds of guns, and still has one of those bumper stickers that says "They'll take away my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" or some such sentiment. He may be 73 years old but my dad would throw down on anybody coming for his guns, and if he would do it, what would you expect from crazy militia types?

[tenshi816]

49. Too true - that memory of what true evil is.

The war may have ended in 1945, but the collective memory of it in Britain is still so strong that it might as well have been last week.

Regarding the gun folks, yeah, can you imagine what would happen if all the crazy militias dotted around the country united and stormed the White House? I could see it happening if the Dumbass were to declare himself Supreme Leader Forever. They've been itching to take down the government for years anyway, and while they might support W now, they wouldn't if they thought they might lose their guns in a government clampdown on the citizenry.

[magellan]

51. I suspect BushCo wouldn't even risk giving that appearance

More likely they'd appeal to gun-owners' desire to 'protect the homeland' and tell them to start rounding up "terrorist sympathizers", gays and "godless commies"; and the puffed up fools would head right out and gladly do the gov't's dirty work for them.

BushCo have worked tirelessly at laying that particularly nasty foundation.

On a lighter note...I'm thinking England are going to win today. Fancy England vs Germany?....Gah, what a reenactment of WWII we'll see in the streets if so....

[tenshi816]

54. England v. Germany!

Just heard that there are 80,000 Brits there for the match today but only 30,000 can get in to see it! I find this slightly worrying...

I'm sure you know this already, but UK streets will be empty this afternoon. Everybody will either be at home watching or at any pub with a widescreen TV. If England wins, there will be a lot of celebrating tonight and a lot of sore heads tomorrow (mind will probably be one of them).

[tenshi816]

86. Well, no England v. Germany for this World Cup after all.

England just can't seem to win on penalty shoot-outs. I'm absolutely gutted right now.

[magellan]

100. We were pulling for England too

But it's like loving the Mets! (Which I do.) England have improved marginally in the midfield, but their offense is still a snooze. Then with Beckham's injury today, Rooney's sending off and Owen already being out....It's too bad but maybe for the better. I think even if they had managed to squeak through Germany would've bashed them. Winning on penalties doesn't take anywhere near the same skills as head to head.

BTW, I wish they'd scrap penalty shoot-outs.

[tenshi816]

102. God, I know, I HATE penalty shoot-outs!

I think it's a hollow victory for the team that wins with them. There's just way too much pressure to perform.

Y'know, I'm fed up with Wayne Rooney and his anger management issues. Lucky for him (and England) that he's a talented footballer though - if he weren't, he'd be channelling his energy into mugging little old ladies and breaking into people's houses.

[magellan]

105. I wasn't familiar with Rooney till this World Cup

Hubby and I don't follow football much outside the WC. Who's he usually play for? The British mob?

Yes, penalty shoot-outs are a cheat. And I also agree it puts way too much pressure on individual players, particularly the goalees, who never defend the goal alone against a penalty kick during a normal match.

What's wrong with a 0-0 final? :shrug:

[tenshi816]

107. Rooney plays for Manchester United,

who he signed with in 2004 not long before his 19th birthday. He's from a rough background and has a bad temper, as does his fiancee Colleen McLaughlin (last year a family birthday party ended up in a massive punch-up between the two groups of relatives). Oh, and if shopping was an Olympic sport, Colleen would win a gold for England - her spending is legendary.

If Wayne Rooney didn't have that golden foot, he and his SO would probably end up featured on this website (and in case you've forgotten because of not living in the UK for a while, "ASBO" stands for "anti-social behaviour order"!).

[magellan]

108. OMG!

My 43-year-old SiL texts us in "chav-speak". Onli.sh.puts.ful.stps.btwen.evri.wurd!! (She's actually quite a lovely person, but reminds me no end of Daisy from 'Keeping Up Appearances'.)

I heard about the England footballers' wives/SOs shameless shopping spree. The bright side, I guess, is that at least Colleen paid for the items!

I'm ready to call this an epidemic. The throwbacks are gaining far too much traction in this world. If I'd known at 20 how prized stupidity and thuggery would be when I reached 40, I would have married Guido and become a Republican.

[Marie26]

87. I disagree

The gun nuts live in fear of liberals taking their guns away. If a good conservative Pres. asked them to hand it over for the good of national security & the American way, I don't think most would raise a peep. It's irrational, but I think that's right.

[tenshi816]

88. We'll have to agree to disagree then.

I know way too many people with unnatural attachments to firearms who wouldn't care who was asking - they won't give up their guns for anybody because it's enshrined in the Constitution. For true gun nuts, that's a deal breaker.

[Marie26]

90. Hope so! nt

[ShortnFiery]

116. Our Chimperor is losing "the gun nuts"!

BTW I'm a Democratic "gun nut."

If this is their only issue, how about we tolerate their legal "hunting" penchant and welcome them into the fold? I don't like hunting but if it isn't done with an UZI, I can understand the tradition that is often passed down through families.

We need the NON-racist gun nuts to unite with us "average American working DEMOCRATS."

Yes, save for machine gun restraint laws, again, WE NEED TO WELCOME THE GUN NUTS TO THE LARGE TENT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY." :hi: :patriot:

On edit: Just a little tongue-in-cheek ... but positive message none the same. :P

[newspeak]

69. maybe we needed to question

the anthrax attack more. Why would law enforcement let it slip-why would some state that the perpetrator was just trying to prove that the US is vulnerable? Why was Democratic Congresscritters and the media attacked? Is it the shot across the bow to stay in line--to lockstep? I don't consider the lives of the Postal carriers or those in the media or in Congress expendable. I'm sure the families of those postal workers who died do not think the lives of their family members are expendable. It was domestic terrorism, where is the perp? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Marie26]

83. We all kind of know. nt

[SupplyConcerns]

91. I'm considering writing my thesis about the anthrax attack

If it could be shown that the government was behind it, it would provide a window into their whole modus operandi. However, I have to ask myself: if I really think that the government would willingly killing civilians with anthrax, what would stop them from killing a college student who was snooping too much?

[toymachines]

96. I hate having to think like that.

I think it is a sign of bad times for freedom.

[Philosoraptor]

52. Actually that happened 5 years ago.

It's not some far off thing that will happen, it did happen.

[Beam Me Up]

99. Yes. And the consequences are still unfolding. The question I have is

Why aren't we allowed to discuss this "it" -- any part of "it" -- in the general forums?

[NastyDiaper]

60. It's not ideology anymore. What * fears from 2006..

..is the prospect of Pat Roberts and his kin not being able to hold back executive misconduct investigations.

I think what we may underestimate are the career feds. The DA's, judges, agents and bureaucrats, are still a mechanism that answers to the law first.

The neocon ideology, aside from the profiteering, is failing. All they have left is to save their asses. I am scared however at the lengths they might go to do that. But I think eventually they will answer for their crimes. Hope, anyway.

Funny how bad being an optimist is anymore.

[yellerpup]

71. Watergate swept all of them down the sewer, anyway...

then Crashcart came climbing back up. Went to a party earlier this week, an fraternal offshoot of a professional artists association, and met a woman who is afraid to say what she really thinks about politics when talking to friends on the phone. I told her to use her voice (and the rest of her talents) to speak out now or else she will forfeit her right to do so forever. I urged her to remember that this is the USA where everyone is allowed to shoot off their mouth about anything. She said, "They've already won." She was sooooo frightened. Then she asked me what she should do. I'm no expert, but I suggested that she let her Congressional representative know how she feels and tell her Senators where she stands on the issues, join others in protest, educate herself on the issues, use her art to get her point across...she just stared at me and finally said, "I'd be afraid to do anything like that. I'd be afraid that they would come after me. I am an artist, and they always come after the artists and intellectuals first." She was so determined to be downbeat about it, I was beginning to lose patience. I said, "Hell, if you're convinced that they are going to come after you anyway, you have nothing to lose by speaking up. You will hate yourself if you don't."

[lonestarnot]

72. kick

[earth mom]

73. Kick

:kick:

[lala_rawraw]

97. we don't need another attack, because

we are already there:(

[BrklynLiberal]

98. They Thought They Were Free

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.
<snip>
"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.
<snip>
"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
<snip>

more....


http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

[WinkyDink]

101. NEVER forget Prescott Bush! Dubya comes by his Fascism naturally.

Funny how that bit of family history has never been discussed in the MSM.

And WHEN the next attack occurs, it won't matter who blames whom; Bushco will usher in martial law.

This entire government has behaved as a psychopath: They got the measure of our weakness, our pliability, in 2000; they assured themselves of it in 2004; they now attack at their whim and leisure, eviscerating the Constitution, laws, treaty provisions, the Treasury; and entire nations---all to satisfy uncontrollable lusts.

And as with Ted Bundy, I expect a frenzied and violent attempt by Bushco to remain in power, if they sense it is slipping from their grasp.

[rucky]

103. THIS is why our Dem leaders pull punches.

we have been held hostage by our own government and military for quite some time now.

[ShortnFiery]

115. In this time of Crisis for our Democratic Republic ...

I can only believe in my heart that Our so called Democratic Leaders "pull punches" most often because they value THEIR CAREERS over what is best for THEIR COUNTRY.

With a few exceptions, I'm disgusted with them. :puke: :grr:

Again, I lost my faith when the Democratic Senators FAILED to Filibuster Alito's Nomination.

We need true American Patriots! Anyone who puts the people's interest over that of large corporations will get my vote. :patriot:

[iconoclastNYC]

104. Yep

Large parts of our party on in on the scheme.

[rman]

106. Agreed. However, re Watergate -

It was a relatively minor issue. Not unimportant, but how does a thwarted political burglary compare to successful govt involvement in illegal narcotics trade, overthrowing a democratic government in another country, and illegal weapons deals? Iran-Contra just like Watergate, did hardly any damage to the RW.
And there's a whole bunch of similar affairs that hardly made the news at all, only a few were ever investigated and there were even fewer convictions.
Basically the same people who were behind those operations now occupy the highest positions of power in the US government. Knowing that, it is to be expected that we're seeing more of the same, and that we're going to see yet more of it in the future.

[earth mom]

111. Wake up America!

Everyone needs to see this thread!

:kick: